NWS' Rules The Waves

[tgb]

All the cool kids seem to be playing this game of early 20th century grand strategy and naval combat.

Essentially you take control of the navy of one of the major powers from 1890-1920, not only dealing with the big picture and diplomacy, but spending a lot of time designing ships and micro-managing combat.

I haven't received my key yet, but will post impressions when I can.

[tgb]

So I got my key late last night and haven't had time to do much besides look at it and start in on the manual (the game is very old school and there's no tutorial). As mentioned you're the head of the naval department of one of the major powers, and not actually leading your country (although your leader does come to you for advice, which he always takes). Essentially you're controlling fleet makeup and where they are placed (colonies all have a minimum tonnage that must be anchored off shore), designing new ships while deciding when to mothball old ones, and managing combat when it happens.

The non-warmaking stuff is clean and basic, although it seems there are decisions to be made almost every turn (each turn=1 month). Events pop up and you are asked to advise on how your head of state should react. Usually there are 3 choices, a hawkish one, a doveish one, and one in the middle. They all have an effect on both your prestige (the metric of how well you are doing) and the degree of tension in the world. The game always directs you to war, because the hawkish choice always means an increase in prestige and world tension. The more prestige you have, the higher your budget each year.

I haven't delved into ship design but it's quite complex. Fortunately you can let the AI handle it for you. Research is high-level. While you can't research specific improvements, you can direct research to focus on a specific area like guns or torpedoes, and assign up to 10% of your budget. Similarly there's no direct diplomacy. Tensions with the other powers rise and fall depending on your decisions, and when they get too high, war breaks out (sometimes led off with a sneak attack). Peace is declared only when your leader asks what you think of the proposed treaty and you give it thumbs up.

I've not played with the combat as yet. Apparently it uses NWS' Steel & Iron system (in fact there's a separate manual just for that), but I understand the learning curve to be pretty gentle.

Again, this is old school, with Harpoon-like graphics. In fact, when I first saw it I wondered if it was running under Windows 3.1.



Ship design:

[Mr Bismarck]

Surprise Attack is the Japanese superpower, so you'll only get that option if you play as the Japanese.

In that instance, the first action of a war is frequently a night attack by a mixed force, with your Destroyer's finding the enemy fleet at anchor, with a chance to torpedo stationary ships. My experience thus far is that these torpedoes will miss and you'll be reminded of that time you decided to not spend $600,000 dollars a month training your sailors in torpedoes and night attacks.

[tgb]

Surprise Attack is the Japanese superpower, so you'll only get that option if you play as the Japanese.

In that instance, the first action of a war is frequently a night attack by a mixed force, with your Destroyer's finding the enemy fleet at anchor, with a chance to torpedo stationary ships. My experience thus far is that these torpedoes will miss and you'll be reminded of that time you decided to not spend $600,000 dollars a month training your sailors in torpedoes and night attacks.

How IS the combat? I'm still working my way through the manual(s).

[Mr Bismarck]

It's very boardgamey and very good. In that it's terrible... On calm seas, with the wind taking your own coal smoke and gun smoke away from your face, with trained crews, advanced guns in solid turrets, firing against an enemy that isn't manoeuvring, in broad daylight, your to-hit chance might, might get as high as 6%.

In one battle between an enemy CA and my CL, with the enemy behind me, meaning my coal and guns were essentially making a smoke screen, with a tired crew in moderate seas at extreme range, I think my to-hit was about 0.3%. Then when I did land, my guns wouldn't go through his deck or belt armour anyway. I had to get lucky and have a round go through the top of a turret.

With this in mind combat becomes pretty compelling, because you're trying to squeeze every last advantage out of your ship. You'll start to time turns and evasions to occur between your salvos, so that you're not suffering the penalty to gunnery for your own movement when your guns are ready to fire. You'll start to think about routes for withdrawal that lead you toward friendly defences, or toward the sunset.

Also, when you've been playing for a while your ships will be your own designs - those compromises you made on the drafting board then start to have a real effect and you'll be cursing your choice to give up one single knot of speed just so you could put two submerged torpedo tubes on... or the decision to take off a half inch of belt armour, so you could make this ship a long range raider.

The trickiest thing about combat is learning to properly use Destroyers. They usually start off as an AI controlled "independent" force attached to your fleet. You can take direct control over them, but only while your flagship has visual contact, (difficult at night). This means it can be awkward to get them to make torpedo runs on the exact target you want, but also that when you do they can be the deciding factor, because while their 4" guns will barely scratch the paint on enemy flagships, the torps have the potential to sink a target in just one or two hits.

The whole package of this game, from how and when to spend your money, to ship design, to combat take some time to digest and have some stone-in-the-shoe moments due to the UI, but once you get there, it's all really good.

[jztemple2]

Damn, I was just going to post about this too! I got my copy earlier today. I first saw mention of it in a Rock, Paper, Shotgun article.

I've followed NWS naval games for awhile and even tried out the Steam And Iron demo found on this page about half way down (or this direct link to the demo). However, I've usually found recreating battles to be not very satisfying since I already know the order of battle and the general situation. Rule The Waves (link to Yahoo sale page) looks to be something to satisfy that itch.

I'm in my first campaign as the UK and through some crappy diplomacy on my part I'm already at war. My first battle was a convoy escort in the North Sea. My three destroyers had to fight off a couple of Russian armored cruisers, but I lost two DDs and a transport . However, I'm now in my second battle. It's the 30th of December, 1901, and my battlefleet of five pre-Dreadnought battleships (of course, there may not even be a Dreadnought dreadnought, if you get my drift ) was laying off the Russian coast looking for trouble. The Russians met me near sunset, in a rainstorm, and sadly for them they have only two battleships. Unfortunately my gunnery has been the pits (will have to train to make up for that, something that's in the game) and so after lots of shells flying around, their ships are still moving, although they've taken damage.

One of the things I like about RTW battles is that there are no stated objectives or short time limits. It feel more like a real life naval battle; not sure what I'm going to run into, nor what is the "given" solution. Do I risk having one of my battleships disabled so far from home, on the chance of sinking one of the Russian ones? Do I withdraw at sunset, or risk a destroyer torpedo night attack? And what has happened to the captain's strawberries ?

[jztemple2]

If you'd like to see some Let's Play videos, there's a good series from baloogan (link to first one).

[tgb]

If you'd like to see some Let's Play videos, there's a good series from baloogan (link to first one).

Thank you for that. I played around with the game a bit yesterday and frankly it was starting to bounce of me a bit, but watching those videos got me excited about playing it again.

[tgb]

Having had an opportunity to finally spend some time with the game this evening, it's a little disappointing that AI-controlled nations don't war with each other or interact with each other in any way. Playing as Russia I'd love to see Germany and Japan go to war, and have to make a choice to loan ships to one or the other (or neither) of them.

[Mr Bismarck]

The AI nations do engage in espionage against each other and I did think they went into wars too, just that these weren't announced to you... I've seen ships on the "sunk" list for other nations in the almanac that I certainly didn't sink, so something's happening.

I finished my game as the Japanese, getting all the way to the end of 1925 and finishing with 35 prestige. It was great fun, especially having a navy that was dissimilar to the major nations' focus on big ships, whereas mine was on torpedoes to sink big ships. The Japanese named a CA after me when I retired, so there's a "Bismarck" in the IJN now.

I'm going to switch to Captain mode, so I can only give direct orders to my flagship and then have a go as either the RN or KM next.

[jztemple2]

I'm really enjoying the game. I like the concept of the strategic wrapper around the tactical Steam And Iron game engine. My latest adventure? My British light cruiser stumbled across a German raider. It turns out the raider was an armored cruiser! Happily we both had the same max speed so I spent the afternoon through twilight being chased by the CA. Finally lost him in the dark. It was a draw, but oddly satisfying. And it reminded me how important even a knot of speed is when it might make the difference between staying out of gun range or ending up toast

[tgb]

I wish this game would grab me, but so far I'm not finding the love. Not that it's a bad game, but it just isn't sucking me in. I may have to give it a shot when I have nothing else to play (hah!) or I'm in a better frame of mind.

[Sepiche]

I gave in and picked this up the other night (even if it is ridiculously overpriced), and it seems cool so far in the little time I've spent with it.

It's campaign mechanics actually seem really well done as a means of generating random battles with some context to them, but I only wish they could have coupled it with a much prettier interface and combat engine.

[El Guapo]

If you screw up badly enough, can you wind up getting your nation conquered?

[Sepiche]

If you screw up badly enough, can you wind up getting your nation conquered?

I don't think so. Still learning, but I think depending on how poorly your nation does in a war you can lose foreign holdings and depending on your government type you might have popular uprisings, but the only thing that can end your game is low prestige.

[jztemple2]

If you screw up badly enough, can you wind up getting your nation conquered?

I don't think you could ever get conquered, but then this is a naval warfare game. You can lose your overseas possessions; I've had two wars with Germany and stripped it of all it's colonies, which in the long run didn't work out too well since I now have to station ships in those areas to keep the peace! I'm the UK currently at war with the USA; I'd really like to get the Panama Canal as war reparations.

I'm really enjoying the game. For instance, I've had some epic small scale battles. Last night, as the UK fighting the USA, I was in coastal raid with a CL and two DD off Maine. I came across two CAs and had to run for my life. Getting clear of them I circled back off Boston, then headed northeast. Off Portland I came across the USA CL Detroit. She was slightly better gunned but I had those two DDs and we needed a win. I pinned her against the coast and so we traveled southwest, the Detroit getting damaged early and trying to dodge like a sheep, me like a sheepdog spinning round and round to keep the Detroit up against the coast. Night fell, which is usually the end of a fight, but I stayed close to the Detroit. It eventually deteriorated down to a fight a couple of hundred yards apart, the Detroit barely making steerage way, until she was sunk after a four hour fight .

Lest it sound like I'm some reincarnation of Nelson, I would point out the time in the North Sea as the UK when my two CLs and two DDs came across a lone German CL. At the start of the fight things were looking good, till the enemy CL torpedoed one of mine and it sank immediately . I continued the fight, even when one of my DDs got torpedoed and limped off. Finally my remaining CL took a fish and I retreated. Not a good night at all.

My latest battle, just completed, was in the Caribbean just north of Panama. My force of one B with three DDs in support plus three CLs as scouts were going in to bombard the canal construction works when I came across a single USA CL. I gave chase which turned out to be not a good idea, since I got drawn towards two USA old battleships. They had twelve inch guns while my lone B had only ten inch guns. Thankfully I had a three knot advantage and was able to run away . I circled around and finally got close to the canal, but it was dark and to get close enough to find a bombardment target I'd have to risk going into a minefield. I headed away and ran right over a USA CL heading into port. I dispatched him immediately, making it a decent night after all

[Sepiche]

Got a few hours in with it last night, and it's starting to make sense I think. Not sure if anyone here knows, but I had a few random questions after playing last night.

First, I designed some reliable, long range cruisers to act as raiders, but I kept having issues with them running out of fuel and having to be scuttled, even when they were in regions where I have bases. Is that just an event that happens from time to time with raiders, or am I doing something wrong? Is this related to fleet supply at all or just a random event? I feel like this was happening a lot given that they were long range ships with reliable engines.

Second, I ran into an issue a few times where it would kick off a battle event in a region where I had ships, but then tell me I didn't have the proper forces and give VP to my opponent. After a little reading this is apparently because I didn't have the right ship classes for the battle scenario it had picked out, but as a general rule is there a good mix of ships to keep in friendly regions during war to cover all your needs?

Third, I'm also a little fuzzy on how supply works. I know I need enough bases in a region to support the ships I have stationed there, but in regions where I don't have bases is there a way to tell how long I can safely leave a ship there before they run into problems?

Lastly, I'm also a bit fuzzy on home areas versus foreign stations. For instance playing as the US I have holdings in the East & West US, the Caribbean, and SE Asia, but I only have force requirements in SE Asia. Does that mean the Caribbean and West coast also count as home areas or do I only have one home area? I also read that you need to rotate ships into and out of colonial regions to keep them in fighting shape, but how do I tell when a ship needs to go back to a home area? Does that still apply if I have a base in that colonial area? If I put ships on foreign station duty would they also rotate through the Caribbean and West coast, or will they only go to SE Asia?

I figured out the hard way I need to keep an assortment of ships in any region I have holdings in, but just mostly unclear on where it's safe/best to leave ships and where it's not.

Really enjoying the game mechanics, but I still just can't help but think how much better it would be with a reasonably good 3d engine for combat instead of the flat map.

[jztemple2]

Got a few hours in with it last night, and it's starting to make sense I think. Not sure if anyone here knows, but I had a few random questions after playing last night.

First, I designed some reliable, long range cruisers to act as raiders, but I kept having issues with them running out of fuel and having to be scuttled, even when they were in regions where I have bases. Is that just an event that happens from time to time with raiders, or am I doing something wrong? Is this related to fleet supply at all or just a random event? I feel like this was happening a lot given that they were long range ships with reliable engines.

This does happen randomly. According to a question posted to the designers about long range and reliability:

Ships with long range will:
* Have better chances to escape interception as raiders.
* Better chances of sinking merchants if raiders.
* Better chance of intercepting raiders.
* Less risk of being interned or scuttled from lack of fuel.
* More fuel when a scenario starts (rarely of importance).

Ships with reliable engines will have:
* Less chance of engine problems in scenarios.
* Less chance of needing to return to base area when at sea (getting a *).
* Less risk of being interned or scuttled from engine problems.

Second, I ran into an issue a few times where it would kick off a battle event in a region where I had ships, but then tell me I didn't have the proper forces and give VP to my opponent. After a little reading this is apparently because I didn't have the right ship classes for the battle scenario it had picked out, but as a general rule is there a good mix of ships to keep in friendly regions during war to cover all your needs?

Hmm, I'm thirteen years in on my game but haven't had this happen yet. I do always put a mix of ships in a battle zone, especially light cruisers. CLs tend to end up in a lot of battles. I'm assuming the game engine generates a random scenario that requires at least certain classes to balance it or at least make it work. A good rule of thumb is at least one battleship for the battle line, destroyers as escorts and light cruisers as scouts. Armored cruisers also help, they can help you attack convoys. Eventually battlecruisers will replace your armored cruisers so I'm guessing that they will also be needed at some point.

Third, I'm also a little fuzzy on how supply works. I know I need enough bases in a region to support the ships I have stationed there, but in regions where I don't have bases is there a way to tell how long I can safely leave a ship there before they run into problems?

The way I understand it, if you are at peace it's not a problem, you can get your supplies from neutral ports. If you are at war you risk the ships being interned in a neutral port (see the quote above from the developers) if you don't have a base or it doesn't have the capacity.

Lastly, I'm also a bit fuzzy on home areas versus foreign stations. For instance playing as the US I have holdings in the East & West US, the Caribbean, and SE Asia, but I only have force requirements in SE Asia. Does that mean the Caribbean and West coast also count as home areas or do I only have one home area? I also read that you need to rotate ships into and out of colonial regions to keep them in fighting shape, but how do I tell when a ship needs to go back to a home area? Does that still apply if I have a base in that colonial area? If I put ships on foreign station duty would they also rotate through the Caribbean and West coast, or will they only go to SE Asia?

I've only played as the UK and the only areas without Force Requirements are Northern Europe and a few places in the eastern Pacific. I'm assuming that in your case the East & West US and the Caribbean are indeed considered home areas, you don't have to "garrison" them. I'm not sure about assigning ships to foreign station duty, I have always selected a specific location for them to go and monitor the Force Requirement satisfaction in each area manually.

As ships get older, I think about eight years, you'll see a "(O)" notation next to their build year in the ship list. That means they are getting obsolete (this is another question I posted in the NWS Rule The Waves forum). They will be more likely to break down and need overhaul, but it can happen sooner too, which is why you need to keep some extra ships at sea. Basically you have a one turn grace period before you get hit on prestige so you can do a chain of moves to place a needs ship in an area.

A good rule of thumb is that before the "(O)" shows up in the ship list, you should have already planned a rebuild or replacement.

I figured out the hard way I need to keep an assortment of ships in any region I have holdings in, but just mostly unclear on where it's safe/best to leave ships and where it's not.

As long as you have base capacity you should be fine.

Really enjoying the game mechanics, but I still just can't help but think how much better it would be with a reasonably good 3d engine for combat instead of the flat map.

I'm old school so I'm glad they didn't. It would just add eye candy for additional cost and impact on the developers. And since I've been playing naval wargames this way (2D) since the Fletcher Pratt days, I'm at ease with it.

[Sepiche]

Thanks for taking the time to reply, that clears up quite a few things.

I'll probably start a new game tonight now that I get some of the mechanics a little better and give it another shot. I'm really hoping I was just unlucky with my raiders as even with both long range and reliable engines I lost two expensive cruisers in just a few months which almost made me question the value of raiding. Maybe I'll try making dedicated CL raiders instead to reduce the cost of losing one.

Hmm, I'm thirteen years in on my game but haven't had this happen yet. I do always put a mix of ships in a battle zone, especially light cruisers. CLs tend to end up in a lot of battles. I'm assuming the game engine generates a random scenario that requires at least certain classes to balance it or at least make it work. A good rule of thumb is at least one battleship for the battle line, destroyers as escorts and light cruisers as scouts. Armored cruisers also help, they can help you attack convoys. Eventually battlecruisers will replace your armored cruisers so I'm guessing that they will also be needed at some point.

I definitely had some missing classes in those zones, and now that I understand what's going on a little better I think it makes sense that way. Since I was shooting from the hip on force composition I think I was heavy on CAs and light on CLs so to speak.

The way I understand it, if you are at peace it's not a problem, you can get your supplies from neutral ports. If you are at war you risk the ships being interned in a neutral port (see the quote above from the developers) if you don't have a base or it doesn't have the capacity.

I also found some more detail on their forums about this one and it sounds like there's also a maintenance cost increase for going over as well as a drop in crew quality in that region. I think I was mainly thrown off by losing those raiders and was worried there was some deeper underlying supply system I was not understanding.

[jztemple2]

I also found some more detail on their forums about this one and it sounds like there's also a maintenance cost increase for going over as well as a drop in crew quality in that region.

I didn't know that, but being the UK in my game there are few areas I don't have bases in so I wouldn't have run into it too often.

By the way, the V1.1 update is in beta and is available for download, there's a post on the forum.

[Sepiche]

Started a new game last night as the US and things are going much more smoothly.

This time I designed a dedicated raider CL and now a few months into a war against France they seem to be more effective than my old raider cruisers and no losses to scuttling yet.

I also had my first fleet battle last night in the Caribbean against a French flotilla. It got to be too late and I had to save without finishing the battle, but when I quit things were slightly in my favor. It was my 2 B, 1 CA, 2 CL, and 4 DD against 1 B, 1 CA, 3 CL, and 4 DD. So far I've lit up his CA and a CL pretty well, but mostly concentrated fire on the B which has taken a lot of shots, but no visible signs of damage yet. For me I've lost a DD when it was trying to close for a torpedo run and his B got a lucky shot on one of my B that cause quite a bit of structural damage, but otherwise I'm in pretty good shape. I'm expecting the fight to end with nightfall and a minor US victory.

This does bring up one question I had though... is there any trick to doing torpedo runs? I sent my DD squadron in to attack his B, they were in torpedo range, roughly parallel to the B, had the B as their primary target, and were only running at cruising speed, but I could never get them to fire a torpedo. Anything I'm missing there?

Also, is there a way to get more feedback on the effectiveness of your fire? I've been getting a lot of hits on his B, but for all I know all my shots are bouncing off his armor. I'm sure the 12" guns of my B are doing some damage too him, but I'm not sure if I'd be better off targeting his escorts with my CL and their 7" guns instead of targeting his B.

[Mr Bismarck]

Torpedo firing is down to the AI weapon controller and it can be quite hard to convince the AI to fire.

Firstly, If the sea's choppy, the AI may decide it's just not worth launching torps at all, as they won't go anywhere in rough seas - WWI torpedoes are terrible. Also, if the range is toward maximum, then they often won't fire, especially if the target is going as fast as the torps. The torpedo range circle shows the torp's maximum range and to get that range the torpedo will often travel quite slowly. It's not out of the question to see early torps that will only do 17 knots to get to max range. If you're targeting a ship that's close to the edge of range and is doing 20 knots, there's not much point in firing.

Finally, there's the training and the torpedo technology tree. With Japan I was constantly training my crews in torpedo tactics and not only did hit % go up, but they also seemed prepared to launch in more extreme circumstances too. Plus, by the end of the game I was carrying torpedoes that would go out 12,000 yards at over 20 knots. And I had Destroyers and Cruisers with 8 or more launchers.

This all made a big difference to the early days, where I'd surprise a fleet at anchor and somehow completely miss stationary ships.

[baelthazar]

You guys are about to push me over the edge here. Let me ask this, if I have rudimentary knowledge of naval warfare will this game still be fun and playable. Or is this closer to Harpoon, where you need a lot of knowledge before starting to grasp the concepts?

[dbt1949]

I ordered this, but if I don't like it I know where you all live.

[jztemple2]

You guys are about to push me over the edge here. Let me ask this, if I have rudimentary knowledge of naval warfare will this game still be fun and playable. Or is this closer to Harpoon, where you need a lot of knowledge before starting to grasp the concepts?

I'd say that "rudimentary knowledge" will probably be good enough, this is pre-radar, pre-missiles, pre-all that stuff. And no airplanes either. So it's basically designing ships with all the firepower you can afforded and getting them in range of an enemy. You will need to have a balanced fleet but that will be more obvious as you play. And you can always ask here or on the official forum.

[Sepiche]

Let me ask this, if I have rudimentary knowledge of naval warfare will this game still be fun and playable. Or is this closer to Harpoon, where you need a lot of knowledge before starting to grasp the concepts?

In terms of the actual battles I don't think it's too bad. First it's basically turn based, so you have plenty of time to think about your actions. Second, you really only need to worry about giving your ships speed and heading orders and to specify a target if you want them to concentrate fire. Everything else they basically take care of.

Designing ships is a little trickier as there are lots of little rules about what you can do that involve your researched tech, ship class, etc. There is a validation tool you can use though to tell you if your design is legal and if there are any penalties (like for having too large of guns on a DD, etc). Nothing that really demands a deep knowledge of naval tactics or anything though.

It's a bit overwhelming at first, and there are some things not in the manual, but once you get the basics they actually did a pretty good job of simplifying what could have been a needlessly complex game.

[jztemple2]

Designing ships is a little trickier as there are lots of little rules about what you can do that involve your researched tech, ship class, etc. There is a validation tool you can use though to tell you if your design is legal and if there are any penalties (like for having too large of guns on a DD, etc). Nothing that really demands a deep knowledge of naval tactics or anything though.

The new 1.1 manual has added a new appendix that helps explain the new ship types. It's available via this page.

[Sepiche]

The new 1.1 manual has added a new appendix that helps explain the new ship types. It's available via this page.

Thanks! I figured out a bit of that by trial and error last night, but nice to see those class rules on paper.

Also, is there a way to get more feedback on the effectiveness of your fire? I've been getting a lot of hits on his B, but for all I know all my shots are bouncing off his armor. I'm sure the 12" guns of my B are doing some damage too him, but I'm not sure if I'd be better off targeting his escorts with my CL and their 7" guns instead of targeting his B.

Figured this one out... at least partially. It's strangely not on the ship card that appears when you right click on an enemy ship, but if you hover over a ship during battle it will also indicate how badly they've been damaged. It seems to fluctuate a lot as the target repairs damage.

In that fleet battle I managed to damage his small craft enough they pulled back and I was able to isolate and pummel his Colbert(ha!) class battleship. Here's my destroyers going in for the coup de grace after I hit his engines and started a fire:


I was definitely too far away and targeting too fast of enemies with my destroyers before. With a slower target and much closer passes I was able to get them to all fire off their torpedoes pretty easily.

[xwraith]

Rule the Waves II is in development: http://nws-online.proboards.com/board/27/rule-waves-2

[Sepiche]

Rule the Waves II is in development: http://nws-online.proboards.com/board/27/rule-waves-2

Glad to hear it. I thought this was a surprisingly fun game with enough of a campaign to make the battles interesting. The ship design rules were quite convoluted, but that was part of the fun.

[xwraith]

Looks like RTW2 is coming out on April 25th now. If you have bought RTW1 they'll give you a discount on it. I thought they might be doing pre-orders or something, but it looks like you won't be able to buy it until the day of release.

Of interest to El Guapo, they did implement blimps