Steam Reviews

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:58 am

Lorini wrote:Two recent very popular games, Factorio and Rimworld, both started on the dev's' websites. People who bought those games from the websites were given 'free' keys when the games moved to Steam. That can no longer happen.

And that was a pretty common practice. A good number of games (mostly Sliterine/Matrix) were added to my Steam library months or even years after release.

TheMix · Post by **TheMix** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:07 am

The keys were provided free to the people that purchased directly from the manufacturer. That doesn't mean that the developer did not have to pay Steam for the keys. I suspect that they still had to give Steam their "cut".

If not, then that is Steam's choice. Penalizing the developers doesn't make sense.

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:17 am

I don't know since I'm not a developer, I play one on TV, but I would guess that part of every distribution contract allows the developer x keys to be given away.

TheMix · Post by **TheMix** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:28 am

Okay. I can accept that. However, I would think that it is unlikely that they are giving those keys to the people that purchased directly from them. Depending on the game, that could require a lot of keys. And that doesn't even address sites like GoG or Bundle-whatevers. Those keys are definitely not free. But aren't those reviews also being dismissed?

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:51 am

As I posted above, it seems that way. Reviews posted by people who purchased from GMG or Humble now get second-class treatment.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:57 am

The people don't get treated as second class citizens, their reviews do

. At the end of the day, Steam is there to make profit for Steam. Allowing devs to provide keys to consumers for games that aren't on Steam isn't adding to Steam's bottom line. Sure maybe a few people quit Steam or organize some kind of protest, but clearly Steam felt that giving those devs the ability to give out Steam keys for games that weren't purchased on Steam was not in their best interest. They closed this off because of the Early Access program that's available and they think that's an acceptable substitute. What I wish is that Steam would wipe the review slate clean (or at least default into not showing EA reviews) when a game goes 'live' into 1.0. That would help a lot for both devs and gamers.

As a consumer I don't want to be misled into thinking a game has positive reviews because the devs gave out Steam keys for free to people. I assume Steam has metrics to show that this is happening. If this in fact is only affecting situations where people indeed paid for the game but their reviews are being filtered out, then that's a problem. I doubt that's the issue though.

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:11 pm

Lorini wrote:The people don't get treated as second class citizens, their reviews do .

Isn't that what I said?

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:20 pm

Lorini wrote:Two recent very popular games, Factorio and Rimworld, both started on the dev's' websites. People who bought those games from the websites were given 'free' keys when the games moved to Steam. That can no longer happen.

I've looked through recent Steam announcements, and I don't see any reference to this at all. When was this policy change implemented?

The only policy change I've found in relation to free keys was specifically limited to Greenlight developers giving out free keys in return for votes, and said nothing about any other circumstances.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:38 pm

In fact, the announcement that brought this thread about included this bit:

Steam keys have always been free for developers to give out or sell through other online or retail stores. That isn't changing. However, it is too easy for these keys to end up being used in ways that artificially inflate review scores.

This was only eight days ago, and says that devs are free to give away keys as always. The only changes are (older) that you can't offer free keys to get greenlighted on Greenlight, and (new) that reviews from users with free keys won't count toward the aggregate score.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:41 pm

According to the Aven Colony devs (who recently released their game on their website) devs can no longer get keys for games that are not on Steam, and according to them it's in the dev agreement. There was more discussion about this but it seems to have been removed. I can't google the dev agreement, I'm sure it's not a public document anyway. The issue was mentioned by the Avon Colony devs in the comments here.. I know the Rimworld guy couldn't promise keys either but he did deliver them. The Factorio guys promised keys and delivered them but they started before Rimworld.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:42 pm

tgb wrote:
Lorini wrote:The people don't get treated as second class citizens, their reviews do .
Isn't that what I said?

Yup, I'm old, forgive me

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:54 pm

Lorini wrote:According to the Aven Colony devs (who recently released their game on their website) devs can no longer get keys for games that are not on Steam, and according to them it's in the dev agreement. There was more discussion about this but it seems to have been removed. I can't google the dev agreement, I'm sure it's not a public document anyway. The issue was mentioned by the Avon Colony devs in the comments here.. I know the Rimworld guy couldn't promise keys either but he did deliver them. The Factorio guys promised keys and delivered them but they started before Rimworld.

These seem to be the relevant quotes:

FAQ:

If I get on the beta, does that get me a Steam key?

No, itch.io is separate from Steam. If you can only play through Steam, it’s best to wait for the full launch — which will definitely include Steam! — in early 2017.

Customer (also a Steam developer) pointed out that Valve lets devs give away keys however they like. Dev answered:

This may be true when a game is *also* available for sale on Steam, but we’ve been informed that this is not the case for games that are available for sale only outside of Steam.

So the complaint is that they can't sell Steam keys for games that aren't for sale on Steam. In this particular case they're still in development and aren't selling it as an 'early access' game through Steam. If it isn't on Steam, a Steam key would be useless anyway (would Steam keys even exist when the game isn't on Steam yet?)

Once the game is actually on the platform, they can give away all of the keys they like, including retroactively to all of the customers who already bought directly through their site.

This is not a change, it isn't affected by the recent policy being discussed here, and seems entirely reasonable in any case.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:26 pm

As Factorio and Rimworld show, it is a change Blackhawk. They were able to sell their games on their website and then when the games went to Steam they gave 'free' Steam keys to their buyers. Now they had thousands of buyers so it was out of the question that they would get that many keys from Steam for 'free'. Steam apparently is stopping the practice of dev websites promising free Steam keys after purchase of the game of on the website, something that had previously been accepted.

It's a pretty big deal. Frankly Aven Colony is probably going nowhere because of the lack of Steam keys when it hits Steam. Who wants to buy the game twice? And (and this is specific to them but could happen to any dev) their update process is terrible so you really want the game on Steam where you don't have to worry about updating.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:46 pm

I'm really not picking on you, I'm just not seeing where this is a thing. You cite Rimworld. Here is Rimworld's statement:

I’ve been forced to stop offering Steam keys for those who buy today and in the future. We’ve been getting hammered by fraudsters who are obviously more experienced at this than I. Shutting it down for now is the only way to avoid thousands of dollars in chargeback fees and lost sales. It’s time to take a breather, because I can’t fight this ‘live’.

The game is, of course, for sale on Steam if you want a Steam copy. Buying from our site will give DRM-free copies as before, but no Steam key.

And from their FAQ:

Will I get a Steam key?
– Everyone who bought RimWorld on or before July 16, 2016 gets a Steam key for their personal use. Get your key at the automated Steam key distributor. (Unfortunately, sophisticated fraud attacks prevent us from giving keys after this date. Though we’d really like to give everyone keys, the fraud is just too expensive.)

Which has nothing to do with Steam's new policies.

And here is Factorio:

If I buy / bought the game at your Purchase page will I be able to get a Steam key?

Yes, that is possible. After you have bought the game you can connect it to your Steam account at your profile/settings page and then have your Steam key emailed to you. The linking to the Steam account is an anti-fraud mechanism. However this free steam key only applies to purchases made directly on our webpage, any purchases from 3rd party retailers are not eligible for a steam key.

I bought the game via Steam, can I get the Factorio login for that as well?

Yes, it is possible. In game you will have the option to register an account on our webpage. You can also create a free account at factorio.com and then head to your profile/settings page where you will find directions on how to link it to your Steam account. It is strongly recommended to create the account with the same username you have on Steam already.

In regards to Aven Colony. When it hits Steam, every single buyer can have a Steam key. Not one will have to buy the game twice. They just can't offer Steam keys as part of the package until they have a deal with Valve.

Of those three, only Aven Colony actually can't give you Steam keys (yet), and it is significant that they're the only one of the three who isn't actually on Steam at all. I don't know of many companies that will let you make promises about your product via their platform before you have a contract with them for that product. If I told customers for my new Kickstarter widget that they'd be able to pick up theirs at their local Wal-Mart before I had a deal with Wal-Mart, I'd be getting cease-and-desists before the web page dried.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:29 pm

You're quoting from a Factorio statement that was made after they went to Steam. They promised Steam keys before they were on Steam. That's what can't be done. The Rimworld guy said that if you bought before a certain date (this is while they were still on a website) you could get a Steam key but he couldn't promise one afterward. He thought he could (and he did) but he couldn't promise one.

I really don't know what's going to happen with Aven Colony, as their inability to promise Steam keys is certainly going to dampen people's willingness to buy the game in its current state.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:35 pm

I can't comment on the first bit, as they only have current info on their page, and I don't have the energy to dig through archives.

Lorini wrote:YThe Rimworld guy said that if you bought before a certain date (this is while they were still on a website) you could get a Steam key but he couldn't promise one afterward. He thought he could (and he did) but he couldn't promise one.

Where? What I know for sure he said was that he stopped after a certain date because he was being stolen from. He could still offer them afterwards, but chose not to.

Lorini wrote: I really don't know what's going to happen with Aven Colony, as their inability to promise Steam keys is certainly going to dampen people's willingness to buy the game in its current state.

They have an option - make an agreement with Steam. Submit their product through Greenlight or just go straight to Early Access (if they're established developers, and if established developers can do that - I dunno.) They can't expect to use Steam as a tool until they're on Steam, though.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:56 pm

Blackhawk, trust me, really, we are talking about two different things here. You are referring to stuff that happened post Steam launch. I've been watching Rimworld and Factorio for literally years. I bought both of them off their websites. If you want more verification, ask on Reddit in their subreddits, there'll be plenty of people there who will verify that Factorio promised and delivered Steam keys before it was on Steam, and that RimWorld promised Steam keys until a certain date, and then said that they could no longer promise but they expected to. Aven Colony has neither promised nor do they say they expect to.

End of this branch of the discussion for me because either you believe me or you don't. I can't do anything more about that.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:10 pm

I think what BH is saying is that the Terms of Service for publishers has recently changed. When STEAM was a newer entity in the world of PC gaming, it's likely they were much more open with developers and allowed them to migrate keys. Just to prove my street cred, I was someone that purchased a beta for Mount and Blade waaaaaaaaaay back in the day. Eventually that developer also handed out STEAM keys to everyone that purchased the game directly from him prior to a certain date.

It's possible there are groups of developers that were in a window where they could give out keys directly, but STEAM has since revoked that privilege based on general abuse across all games that use STEAM. So there likely are groups of people that were told one thing by a specific publisher, but now they can't deliver because the TOS have changed. It's unfortunate, but when you have a title that is taking years and years to develop it's understandable how these things can happen.

EDIT: Though I still don't see what the overall issue is. STEAM is trying to make sure the review system they promote on their own publishing platform reflects purchases made through their client. Not free keys. Not retail keys activated from elsewhere - keys they have sold or otherwise provided directly. I don't think that's unreasonable.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:18 pm

Smoove_B wrote:I think what BH is saying is that the Terms of Service for publishers has recently changed. When STEAM was a newer entity in the world of PC gaming, it's likely they were much more open with developers and allowed them to migrate keys. Just to prove my street cred, I was someone that purchased a beta for Mount and Blade waaaaaaaaaay back in the day. Eventually that developer also handed out STEAM keys to everyone that purchased the game directly from him prior to a certain date.

It's possible there are groups of developers that were in a window where they could give out keys directly, but STEAM has since revoked that privilege based on general abuse across all games that use STEAM. So there likely are groups of people that were told one thing by a specific publisher, but now they can't deliver because the TOS have changed. It's unfortunate, but when you have a title that is taking years and years to develop it's understandable how these things can happen.

EDIT: Though I still don't see what the overall issue is. STEAM is trying to make sure the review system they promote on their own publishing platform reflects purchases made through their client. Not free keys. Not retail keys activated from elsewhere - keys they have sold or otherwise provided directly. I don't think that's unreasonable.

I thought that was what I was saying and BH was saying the opposite?? I'm old as mentioned so maybe I misunderstood? I think it's perfectly reasonable. And as I mentioned before, I'd like to see a default review status where reviews from an EA game that has gone official not count toward the review status.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:35 pm

It isn't that I don't believe you so much as how you're interpreting things is directly contrary to what Steam is saying. They're saying you can give keys away. You're saying you can't. I looked up some of these on Reddit and their forums.

RimWorld promised Steam keys from its Kickstarter, then, at a certain point was forbidden from doing so. They then actually released on Steam, and gave keys away until they got burned by kesellers and chose to stop (Hi, G2A!)

From the RimWorld dev

The reason it's like this is because Valve policy doesn't allow us to promise Steam keys to people indefinitely. They seem to be generally cool about it when it's just for a Kickstarter or something, but after a while policy kicks in. They're running a business and they only make money off Steam sales, so I see their position on this.

This was from a year ago, so it isn't a change, it is just the way the policy works. If your game isn't available on Steam, and you don't have a contract with Steam, you can't promise Steam assets to your customers. It sounds like Valve makes an exception for Kickstarters, but when that's done and it's just regular sales, the policy kicks in. It wasn't that Steam changed the rules on them halfway through, just that their exception ran out.

As far as Factorio, from everything I can find, they never gave out Steam keys prior to their Steam launch at all (although they did state that IF they got on Steam they'd give buyers Steam keys, which may have gotten around the rules by not directly promising the keys.) And that was at least two years ago.

If there was a policy shift that changed the way games not on Steam can promise Steam keys, it is an old one.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:42 pm

And just to clarify, this is what I am arguing against, quoting from the first post:

Lorini wrote:Today on Steam they announced a change to Steam Reviews. Thoughts?

[snip]

This probably also has to do with the difficulty of trying to start a game off of Steam, promising Steam keys when the game is released, and then giving those keys out. Apparently devs can no longer do that.

From what I have seen, they haven't been able to do this for a very, very long time.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:28 pm

I think some things are in order here

Factorio launched on their website. When you paid for the game, you were promised a Steam key throughout their website launch. At that time Factorio was not available on Steam. This is what I'm saying can't happen anymore.
Rimworld launched on their website. When you paid for the game after the KS, you were told that while they couldn't promise a Steam key to buyers but they hoped they could get a Steam key. When they launched on Steam, I got a Steam key.
Aven Colony launched this month on their website. They are saying you won't get a Steam key if you buy the game from their website. I'm asserting this is a change.

The Factorio launch has the most impact because they had nearly 100K in sales off the website, so that's 100K people whose reviews won't be counted even though they purchased the game. I don't know how many copies of Rimworld were sold from his website, but I'm sure it was substantial.

These two developers may have been concerned with negative EA reviews, so they released on their website so that the game would have positive buzz as well as eventually being able to have their players transition seamlessly to Steam. Apparently that can't/won't happen anymore.

I'm going to start a discussion about EA in general when this discussion has kind of run its course because I think there's a lot to talk about on both sides.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:42 pm

Lorini wrote:I think some things are in order here

Factorio launched on their website. When you paid for the game, you were promised a Steam key throughout their website launch. At that time Factorio was not available on Steam. This is what I'm saying can't happen anymore.

I don't think it could happen then, either. I've looked up Factorio's old developer posts in this regard. Their only promise was that if (IF) they got onto Steam, they'd also give out Steam keys. They were very careful to state it in such a way that they weren't actually promising something from Steam. That's different from directly selling Steam keys for games that don't have a contract with Steam (and saying "game key is $20, free Steam key included" is still selling Steam keys.)

Your RimWorld example gives two things: First was the apparent aforementioned exception for Kickstarters, the second was that they still didn't sell Steam keys before the Steam release ("...they couldn't promise a Steam key to buyers but they hoped they could get a Steam key. ")

Aven Colony launched this month on their website. They are saying you won't get a Steam key if you buy the game from their website. I'm asserting this is a change.

Sort of, yes. They're saying, very specifically, that buying into the beta before the Steam launch won't get you a Steam key. This isn't a change, as it is, more or less, the same thing that the other two said (they can't promise a Steam key for off-Steam purchases), but that doesn't mean you won't get one later. Once they release on Steam they can still freely give out keys to every single person who bought it if they want to.

/edit - I found some Aven Colony dev quotes specifically on whether people buying in now will get keys later. They all read like this: " we can't guarantee anything like that happening, so assume that they won't." That's proper double-speak for "maybe, but if we can't use the word 'yes' yet."

I don't disagree with you about the lost reviews.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:48 pm

Smoove_B wrote:I think what BH is saying is that the Terms of Service for publishers has recently changed.

I'm actually saying the opposite. That they've been this way, if not all along, then at least for the last few years.

Here, by the way, is the exact wording of the Steam policy:

"Please note that Steam keys cannot be sold on other sites unless the product is also available for purchase on Steam at no higher a price than is offered on any other service or website."

I can't link it, as it is in developer-only documentation. I dug it up in an image someone took of said documentation.

/edit - actually, here:

Second half is what applies.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:19 pm

OK to me that's a semantic difference. No they didn't actually sell the keys because the game wasn't on Steam for the keys to be used. They sold the game giving the consumers the expectation that there would be a steam game forthcoming and if there was, the consumer would get a key. The Aven Colony dev words are much more vague than the Rimworld guy was saying. I bought Aven Colony and I'm expecting to buy it again when it hits Steam and I want it there (haven't decided).

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:26 pm

Their differences may just be differences in style. The Aven Colony dev may just be extremely careful around regulations (like I'd be), while the others were more willing to toe the line as far as giving expectations. It does, though, show that this policy has been around at least a couple of years (the oldest example we've been discussing.)

In any case, peace. I've actually learned a fair bit about indies and Steam during this debate.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:51 pm

Getting back to the reviews, it would seem they actually updated the policy earlier today:

One frequent piece of feedback we’ve heard regarding the recent changes is that it has become more difficult to find and read the helpful, articulate reviews written by customers that obtained the game outside of Steam. We want to make sure that helpful reviews can be surfaced regardless of purchase source, so we're making a change to the defaults. Starting today, the review section on each product page will show reviews written by all users, regardless of purchase type. By default you'll now see reviews written by all players of the game, including Steam customers, Kickstarter backers, bundle customers, streamers, and other users that acquired the game outside of Steam.

...

As we mentioned in our previous announcement, we’ve been working on some changes to the ranking of ‘helpful’ reviews that appear for each product. The goal is to be able to better identify and highlight helpful reviews while hiding or lowering the prominence of unhelpful reviews. Our existing system just looks at the overall number of users that rated a review as 'helpful', but we're seeing this can produce unpredictable results. For example, sometimes unhelpful memes get rated as ‘helpful’ because people think it’s funny. So we're working on updating the system to consider more factors when deciding how to rank 'helpful' reviews so that it can generate better results. We plan on rolling out a beta soon, which you’ll be able to opt into so you can compare the sorting of helpful reviews before and after the change.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:02 pm

That's a good compromise. Thanks, Steam.

Rumpy · Post by **Rumpy** » Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:31 am

Yeah, that's along the lines of what I was thinking. Good on them.

Nightwish · Post by **Nightwish** » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:38 pm

So, finally steam learned about machine learning and how their review system is terrible. Better than never.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:27 am

Should be interesting to see how it shakes out.

I tend to do a lot of sifting through reviews anyway and don't just hop on the first three as fact. I weigh recent, overall, positive, and negative reviews together in reading and make a choice. I sometimes skip out to MetaCritic as well for more info if it feels like a lot of contradiction is going on.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:07 pm

I've been using OpenCritic as well, I like their transparency.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:25 pm

I rely on OO, Let's Play, and my own impetuousness

JetFred · Post by **JetFred** » Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:39 pm

I haven't read this whole thread, but I don't use Steam reviews for too much more than seeing if the consensus is mostly negative and why. Otherwise I go with my own taste. But then again, thanks to bundles, I own a whole lot of games that deserve "mixed" and "negative" consensus.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:08 am

So two games (that I know of) have their are having 'overwhelmingly negative' for reasons that have nothing to do with the quality of the game. One of the Endless Games had a mod which enabled piracy and it was removed so ANGER and then Anno 2205 released a third DLC which is not covered by its Season Pass WHICH EXPLICITLY SAID TWO DLC ONLY so more ANGER.

I think reviews by the public are just in a bad bad place. If you don't have access to a forum like OO or a bunch of well heeled friends who buy the games you are interested in, then you have to rely on publisher marketing and/or review sites which could be biased in ways you don't want.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:13 am

For real fun, go read the user Metacritic reviews for Company of Heroes 2.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:54 pm

Firewatch now getting review-bombed on Steam after dev takes down videos from PewDeePie's channel after using racial slur.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:07 pm

Alefroth wrote:Firewatch now getting review-bombed on Steam after dev takes down videos from PewDeePie's channel after using racial slur.

There's enough shame to go around for everyone on this one. If we limit the discussion to morons review bombing, then yeah, they're morons.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:06 am

They have added graphs to Steam reviews. Check out the graph for Divinity Original Sin II, very interesting. This was done in response to the Firewatch review bombing.

ColdSteel · Post by **ColdSteel** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:22 am

Lorini wrote:Check out the graph for Divinity Original Sin II, very interesting

Yeah, it looks like it was review bombed on release day. That's weird.