Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

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Lorini wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:29 am I will not buy anymore RPG's that I won't finish I will not buy anymore RPG's that I won't finish I will not buy anymore RPG's that I won't finish
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Paingod »

Man, the more I listen to you all talk about this, the more I want to add this game to the growing collection of isometric RPG's I buy, play for an hour or two, and then put down. :hawk:

I do really like the concept of running your own kingdom, though. It's something I tried repeatedly to do in Mount & Blade, but it was a mess for that.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Freyland »

Paingod wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:02 pm Man, the more I listen to you all talk about this, the more I want to add this game to the growing collection of isometric RPG's I buy, play for an hour or two, and then put down. :hawk:

I do really like the concept of running your own kingdom, though. It's something I tried repeatedly to do in Mount & Blade, but it was a mess for that.
Thread derail, but the Prophecy of Pendor mod seemed to handle that quite well.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

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I'm impressed that the companion AI is capable enough to finish off a downed trollhound with an Acid Splash cantrip while I was still fumbling around trying to cast Burning Hands.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Lorini »

Fitzy wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:45 pm
Lorini wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:29 am I will not buy anymore RPG's that I won't finish I will not buy anymore RPG's that I won't finish I will not buy anymore RPG's that I won't finish
How do you know you won’t finish if you don’t buy the game? :ninja:
Good point!!! I'm really interested in the town stuff, does anyone know much about it?
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Max Peck »

Pathfinder: Kingmaker Blends Role-Playing, City Management
I first realized just how in-depth the city management aspect was when a developer opened up a map of his kingdom. In games like Baldur’s Gate II and Pillars of Eternity, you have a stronghold, and you can invest money in its defensive and aesthetic features. But Pathfinder: Kingmaker is on another level entirely. Instead of a list of upgrades, the game showed an entire city, building by building, with a detailed menu of how to add more structures, how much each one would cost and what benefits they could confer on the burgeoning kingdom.

Planning a city isn’t just about cramming a building into every inch of available space, either. Structures can affect one another, meaning that you’ll want to optimize your building placement. A barracks next to a tavern, for example, will keep soldiers happy and business owners in the black. But a tavern by itself on the outskirts of town is not going to do much good for either your townsfolk or your coffers.

Your party members and other recruitable NPCs are also instrumental to keeping your citizens happy. You can assign these characters to various posts in your kingdom — treasurer, general, diplomat and so forth — and each character will have various strengths and weaknesses. You can also assign party members to carry out assignments. For example, a mining consortium requested an arbiter for a dispute. The developer sent one of his party members, only to discover a few days later that she’d failed in her task. These various successes and failures will add up over time, and determine what kind of allies and resources your kingdom can call upon.

What surprised me most about building a kingdom in Pathfiner: Kingmaker is that it’s not just an extra feature; it’s inexorably tied to your game’s overall success. If you allow your kingdom to fall into disrepair and ruin, the game will end. It’s not enough to defeat enemies and advance the plot; you also have to demonstrate your value as a good ruler.

Granted, what constitutes a “good” ruler is subjective. Your story choices and character disposition will determine what kind of monarchy you run. Good-aligned characters may host carnivals and dispatch knights to patrol the streets; evil-aligned characters may host public executions and dispatch monsters to keep the populace in line. Even neutral characters can build up havens for financiers and mercenaries. As long as you keep your lands prosperous, any moral alignment can get the job done.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

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Shut up I have no time for this!!!
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

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coopasonic wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:48 pm Shut up I have no time for this!!!
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by GreenGoo »

That all sounds very good. Fantastic in fact. But it also sounds like it's a preview from a reviewer working directly with the developers.

Not that the information above isn't valuable, but I'll wait to hear from the public actually playing the game with regard to the kingdom aspects. Sometimes the preview and the public agree. Sometimes they don't.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by ydejin »

Max Peck wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:44 am I also found that the combat can be pretty brutal if you're not familiar with the Pathfinder/D20 3.5 systems. I managed a complete party wipe in the tutorial section on my first go-round, and am still hitting some severe difficulty spikes early in the game with a 2nd level party. I had to drop the difficulty down to easy (from normal) to get past one recurring random encounter that seemed otherwise unbeatable, and resorted to reading up on a particular P&P game mechanic in order to avoid death by a thousand scratches because the game didn't provide any discernible reason for why everything I tried failed to do any damage to seemingly trivial critters that nibbled me to death 1 HP at a time. I need to git gud... :)
I'm enjoying myself, but I've repeatedly gotten my ass handed to me in a wide range of fights playing on "Normal". I just hit level 3, so hopefully things will get a bit better (IIRC the first couple levels are pretty rough in DnD).

I'm definitely not feeling particularly heroic at this point.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Max Peck »

GreenGoo wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:00 pm That all sounds very good. Fantastic in fact. But it also sounds like it's a preview from a reviewer working directly with the developers.

Not that the information above isn't valuable, but I'll wait to hear from the public actually playing the game with regard to the kingdom aspects. Sometimes the preview and the public agree. Sometimes they don't.
It is a preview of the press demo, published in early September. I just posted it because Lorini was asking about the town management aspect of the game, and the preview gives a high-level overview of the feature, while I haven't progressed far enough in the game to give any impressions of my own.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Lorini »

And thanks much for that posting!!! It's on the wishlist now, but will have to wait til I play some more of my other games. Since they didn't offer a discount there's no real hurry and if I wait, then you folks can help me when I get stuck :)
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

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Welp, I'm in.

32 bucks on fanatical.com doesn't hurt either.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by GreenGoo »

Max Peck wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:30 pm It is a preview of the press demo, published in early September. I just posted it because Lorini was asking about the town management aspect of the game, and the preview gives a high-level overview of the feature, while I haven't progressed far enough in the game to give any impressions of my own.
Yep yep. No worries.

Just under 500 reviews, which are "mixed". I assume that means there are subtitles that you can/can't turn off, depending on which makes you angrier.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Just having Avellone's name on this means it's insta-wishlisted, but imma wait til the price drops significantly since I have about 8 other top tier games like this waiting to be played. I'm a terrible old-timer gamer.

Funny side note: I just remember thinking WAY back when I was a gaming kiddie, probably around the Bard's Tale III, Might and Magic III release dates (very early 90's I guess), if I would still be playing computer games when I was a grey-haired dottard, or would it be something I would grow out of as I became an adult. I remember focusing specifically, and thinking, "Considering my current enthusiasm/addiction, I just don't see me NOT wanting to play these things in the future, considering how awesome they will likely be". How many times does your young self nail something in the future so well? :D
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Lorini »

GreenGoo wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:15 pm
Max Peck wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:30 pm It is a preview of the press demo, published in early September. I just posted it because Lorini was asking about the town management aspect of the game, and the preview gives a high-level overview of the feature, while I haven't progressed far enough in the game to give any impressions of my own.
Yep yep. No worries.

Just under 500 reviews, which are "mixed". I assume that means there are subtitles that you can/can't turn off, depending on which makes you angrier.
Apparently the saves for Linux/Mac can get corrupted and you can lose them, so that might account for at least some of the negative reviews. Also the other issue is that the game is very true to the tabletop game, not so true to the 'usual' CRPG's so people may be playing at difficulties over their head.
Last edited by Lorini on Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by GreenGoo »

Yep, that would do it. I'm not wading through 500+ reviews, but I will wait for whatever consensus eventually materializes.

So far, so good.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Lorini »

GreenGoo wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:01 pm Yep, that would do it. I'm not wading through 500+ reviews, but I will wait for whatever consensus eventually materializes.

So far, so good.
This is why I'm happy they added that timeline. Also I tend to trust site reviews over player reviews at least as a summary.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by GreenGoo »

Yep, I've never used an aggregate of steam reviews for anything other than identifying games that are universally praised by everyone, or universally panned by everyone, assuming enough reviews.

Games in the middle require deeper inspection, assuming I'm interested enough to do the leg work.

Also, it's far too soon after release for me to decide one way or another. Things shake out over days or weeks that simply aren't noticed or even occur shortly after release.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Lorini »

It's not on sale although there is a 20% discount on fanatical.com. We can wait :)
Actually the sale is over in 10 days but that's enough time for things to shake out.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Lorini »

Many of the reviews are complaining about the difficulty. Here is there response:
Difficulty problems: a message from our Creative Director
We hear your comments on the game difficulty and difficulty spikes, and we will take specific steps in addressing those spikes. First of all, the encounter with the wolves is too hard right now even for normal difficulty, so we will be reducing the number of the wolves in the encounter, as it is a part of the tutorial and should not be as harsh. Speaking of random encounters - we will double check our random encounter generation rules once again to be sure that the encounters that are too powerful for your party didn't happen.
We hear a lot of comments about the spider cave Bokken is sending you to. Swarms are difficult, as swarms of tiny creatures are immune to weapon damage in Pathfinder and require special handling with fire, alchemical fire or AoE spells. From hotfix 1.0.2 Bokken will be warning you of those dangers and provide the party with means to handle them at least partially (several alchemical fire flasks). There will also be separate tutorial messages about difficult to notice mechanics on enemies (like damage immunity or damage reduction, regeneration and similar). For story mode and easy difficulties, those qualities of creatures will be turned off (story mode) or reduced (easy).
The first chapter of the game allows you to choose between different objectives, you can start pursuing your rival, or you can start dealing with the bandits. Because of that, you can reach certain boss enemies having different levels and overall power. We will be reviewing encounters in the Temple of the Elk and the Ancient Tomb to be sure their difficulty is suitable for a 2nd level party.
And one last note about the difficulty - there are plenty of difficulty options to choose from, and we really hope that each player can find the difficulty of the game that will be interesting to them. Unfair and Hard difficulties were meant as really difficult challenges, where creatures are much more powerful than player's party (and we will be adding an additional warning for the new players, who want to start the game on those difficulty settings). I know that there are some players who consider modes like this the only viable modes of play, and while respecting that I want to say that we were designing them to be very difficult and require a lot of patience, careful party building and getting accustomed to party abilities and adapting your strategies to that. A lot of encounters there are killing my party when I am playing the game and require at least several tries to change the tactical approach to the encounter. Please keep that in mind.

--Alexander Mishulin,
Pathfinder: Kingmaker Creative Director
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

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WOW Steam took the reviews down.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

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When I looked at the reviews yesterday, a surprising number of them involved 'no beards.'

I wonder if they balanced the way they sometimes do the tabletop game - on the assumption that people will min/max their characters beyond reason. There is a whole swathe of the Pathfinder community who do nothing but theorycraft optimal builds, including things like specific races and combinations of classes (stuff like: "take a level of rogue to start with, then two levels of ranger for ability A, one level of travel cleric for special move X, Feat Y to allow the Ranger's preferred foe to receive backstab bonuses, Feat Z to allow backstabs to apply to bows,then continue with rogue until you prestige into scout. Then use your travel cleric to teleport ten feet every round, which activates the scout's bonus damage which now apply to sneak attacks via the ranger's bow and can critically hit creatures that normally can't be critted. Now get a bow of splintering. 16d8 of damage per shot." ) Actually, I think that example was 3.5, but you get the idea. If they balanced for those people, it'll be a nightmare for anyone who doesn't play that way.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by The Meal »

There was text around the game explicitly stating you should try weird combinations like a halfling berserker. There are five (or maybe six) preset combat rating settings, and a customize-it-yourself setting that includes around a dozen options.

Don't think min/maxing should be a concern.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

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The Meal wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:49 pm There are five (or maybe six) preset combat rating settings, and a customize-it-yourself setting that includes around a dozen options.
Yup.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

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The Meal wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:49 pm There was text around the game explicitly stating you should try weird combinations like a halfling berserker. There are five (or maybe six) preset combat rating settings, and a customize-it-yourself setting that includes around a dozen options.

Don't think min/maxing should be a concern.
And yet the number one complaint has been difficulty and balance issues. The kind you'd get if they'd set up their difficulties based on the assumption that people would min/max like they do in the PnP game. And I wouldn't be surprised, honestly. The biggest complaint I hear when introducing Pathfinder/3.5 players to other games is that you can't optimize the characters enough.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Lorini »

Yeah it seems like they just moved the game over from the books to Steam without really looking at what's out there now and having a plan to manage expectations. I realize they think their RPG is pretty special but really for Steam players, it's another CRPG that might be good.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Carpet_pissr »

Weird how the dev was almost apologizing for the ‘Hard’ and ‘Unfair’ settings being difficult.

“ ‘Hard’ and ‘Unfair’ settings are both hard, and unfair, respectively.” Nuff said!
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

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Blackhawk wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:08 pm
The Meal wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:49 pm There was text around the game explicitly stating you should try weird combinations like a halfling berserker. There are five (or maybe six) preset combat rating settings, and a customize-it-yourself setting that includes around a dozen options.

Don't think min/maxing should be a concern.
And yet the number one complaint has been difficulty and balance issues.
I'm not here to argue with reviewers (who've spent more time with the game than I) or with other players (who may play in a style different than my own). I lack the significant time for gaming I once had and no longer harbor much in the way of masochistic tendencies to beat a game "the right way" (on harder modes than is necessary) and will freely take advantage of difficulty setting when I'm not having fun. I'm not privvy to design decisions for the game (I picked it up on a whim after reading this thread, and did no background research on how the game was made).

I stand by my statements though. There are lots of customizations for difficulty settings (there is a slider which allows you to disregard up to 90% of all damage to your player characters!)—sufficient for me, a know-nothing-about-Pathfinder-guy who spent no effort to maximize his main character's abilities relative to the gameset, to have a great time with things. Your experiences may be different.

My main is a Halfling Eldritch Scoundrel, FWIW.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

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And yet people are complaining that they're getting absolutely murdered on normal.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Max Peck »

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:53 pm And yet people are complaining that they're getting absolutely murdered on normal.
Some people are, some people aren't. I was chatting with a friend earlier, and he's getting by fine on normal (although I don't know if he's hit some of the particularly difficult encounter's yet).
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Fretmute »

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:53 pm And yet people are complaining that they're getting absolutely murdered on normal.
For what it's worth, I think I went for one step above that (since I feel that "normal" said that enemies still get nerfed), and my party wiped before we left the first area. I presume that it was a combination of a bunch of bad rolls and the fact that my main was a bard, and the starting party _also_ features a useless bard, but we whiffed three rounds in a row between all of us and then got dominated.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Paingod »

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:53 pmAnd yet people are complaining that they're getting absolutely murdered on normal.
Yeah. I was reading a lot of complaints about normal, in particular dealing with enemies that have specific immunities - like swarms being immune to non-AoE damage, spiders getting damage reduction, werewolves being impossible without silver, etc... but the problem wasn't that the player didn't know what to do - the problem was that these things were landing as random encounters or boss encounters on low level groups that had no means to deal with them. Normal difficulty indeed.

I have a pretty high threshold for annoyance in game systems and will put up with a really tough exterior if the inside is warm and chewy. Not everyone shares that trait. Amusingly, knowing that the game punished people like this made it more interesting to me and not less.

When they get tired of making Pathfinder games, I'd love for them to make a Starfinder game.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by DD* »

I am weak. The download is underway...
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Lorini »

I was weakening but the Tropico 6 beta released today, so have another new shiny! Also I think Pathfinder will be a lot better in a couple of months.

E:Actually I'm not sure about Tropico 6's direction so I passed and Pathfinder is still on the radar.
Last edited by Lorini on Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by hepcat »

Fretmute wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:12 am
Blackhawk wrote: Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:53 pm And yet people are complaining that they're getting absolutely murdered on normal.
For what it's worth, I think I went for one step above that (since I feel that "normal" said that enemies still get nerfed), and my party wiped before we left the first area. I presume that it was a combination of a bunch of bad rolls and the fact that my main was a bard, and the starting party _also_ features a useless bard, but we whiffed three rounds in a row between all of us and then got dominated.
That's exactly what I was thinking of doing. I felt challenging (the level right after normal) was the way it was supposed to be played as nothing was nerfed/enhanced. But now I'm beginning to think I should restart on normal.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by GreenGoo »

Lorini's quote from the dev re: difficulty seems to answer most of the questions that I'm still seeing after that post.

There are a number of encounters that the Dev agrees are too tough, and they will be nerfed.

Some of the critters have special attributes that make them immune to various kinds of weapons, including "horde" critters that are completely immune to direct damage. The Dev has said they will include a spell by default that can handle these hordlings.

Otherwise, reap what you sow. I say that without having played the game, so I'm in a poor position to comment directly, but as pointed out, the tougher difficulties are tough.

Looking at this from an tabletop rpg perspective, encounters need to be challenging otherwise they are simply exp for the farming. This might be ok and expected in normal crpgs (rats in every crpg ever made, for example) but this is a pen and paper conversion. That doesn't mean that all encounters have to be life or death moments for all your characters, but they need to at least hint at killing you, otherwise they are just wasting your valuable time (from a pen and paper perspective).

But mostly, the dev has addressed what appears to be the lion's share of complaints about difficulty. I'm not sure when the patch can be expected, but at least they acknowledge the problem and are working on a solution. Plus, the dev has said "git gud" for everything else.

That seems fair, but we'll have to wait for the patch to see just how fair it really is.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Lorini »

Live Steam broadcast happening.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Smoove_B »

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:51 pm Looking at this from an tabletop rpg perspective, encounters need to be challenging otherwise they are simply exp for the farming. This might be ok and expected in normal crpgs (rats in every crpg ever made, for example) but this is a pen and paper conversion. That doesn't mean that all encounters have to be life or death moments for all your characters, but they need to at least hint at killing you, otherwise they are just wasting your valuable time (from a pen and paper perspective).
Speaking as a retired DM, the single most difficult thing (in my experience) was creating a meaningful adventure for level 1 characters. The story and overall narrative isn't the problem, its the fact that the characters are so powerless. Even if you put them up against weak monsters, there's always the chance of bad die rolling or a missed saving throw that can really ruin the fun. As a human being that's rolling dice behind the scenes, that's easy to address. How the computer/AI manages to do it (if it's doing it at all) - that's a whole different story.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Fretmute »

Smoove_B wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:57 pm
GreenGoo wrote: Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:51 pm Looking at this from an tabletop rpg perspective, encounters need to be challenging otherwise they are simply exp for the farming. This might be ok and expected in normal crpgs (rats in every crpg ever made, for example) but this is a pen and paper conversion. That doesn't mean that all encounters have to be life or death moments for all your characters, but they need to at least hint at killing you, otherwise they are just wasting your valuable time (from a pen and paper perspective).
Speaking as a retired DM, the single most difficult thing (in my experience) was creating a meaningful adventure for level 1 characters. The story and overall narrative isn't the problem, its the fact that the characters are so powerless. Even if you put them up against weak monsters, there's always the chance of bad die rolling or a missed saving throw that can really ruin the fun. As a human being that's rolling dice behind the scenes, that's easy to address. How the computer/AI manages to do it (if it's doing it at all) - that's a whole different story.
Right? You have 6 HP. You are always literally one sword swing away from death.
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