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Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

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GreenGoo
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:03 pm

Fretmute wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:00 pm
Right? You have 6 HP. You are always literally one sword swing away from death.
Sure, and newer versions of D&D have bleeding out, unconscious, bandaging etc to mitigate it somewhat.

Obviously though, level 1 characters suck, mostly because they are so fragile. Which is hilarious, given that they are supposed to be above and beyond your average peon. Farmers must melt when it rains.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by wire » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:05 pm

Spider swarms....kill it with fire! What...you don't have fire? Run...run away.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Smoove_B » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:13 pm

Fretmute wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:00 pm
Right? You have 6 HP. You are always literally one sword swing away from death.
6 HP? Are you some type of Fighter with a CON bonus? Think about a mage with 1D4 health to start. Fight an orc? You could be killed falling off a tall step.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Fretmute » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:15 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:13 pm
Fretmute wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:00 pm
Right? You have 6 HP. You are always literally one sword swing away from death.
6 HP? Are you some type of Fighter with a CON bonus? Think about a mage with 1D4 health to start. Fight an orc? You could be killed falling off a tall step.
I have no truck with DMs that don't grant the full hit die at level 1!

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:28 pm

Smoove_B wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:13 pm
Fretmute wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:00 pm
Right? You have 6 HP. You are always literally one sword swing away from death.
6 HP? Are you some type of Fighter with a CON bonus? Think about a mage with 1D4 health to start. Fight an orc? You could be killed falling off a tall step.
That hasn't been true for like, several versions. Decades. Here's another eye opener. First level mages have more than 1 spell now too!

Up until recently I would have agreed with you, but then I played some 5e. Now everyone is a freakin' ninja with ginzu blades. :wink: @red51ve

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by IceBear » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:42 pm

And a 1.9 GB patch is downloading for it as we speak. Responsive developers...I like it. That was my main concern when I backed this Kickstarter - who are these guys to make a decent game. I've been pleasantly surprised

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by IceBear » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:47 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:28 pm
Smoove_B wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:13 pm
Fretmute wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:00 pm
Right? You have 6 HP. You are always literally one sword swing away from death.
6 HP? Are you some type of Fighter with a CON bonus? Think about a mage with 1D4 health to start. Fight an orc? You could be killed falling off a tall step.
That hasn't been true for like, several versions. Decades. Here's another eye opener. First level mages have more than 1 spell now too!

Up until recently I would have agreed with you, but then I played some 5e. Now everyone is a freakin' ninja with ginzu blades. :wink: @red51ve
That's been true since 3E (which the Pathfinder rules are built on). The main thing 5E did was remove most of the rules that 3E added for consistency amongst the different groups) and put a lot of the decision back in the GM's hands. And they added the advantage/disadvantage mechanic to make that easier...."you want to slide down the rail, jump off onto the chandelier and then drop down and stab the guy?, ok, sure make an Athletics test with disadvantage but if you succeed attack with advantage"

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by IceBear » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:50 pm

One the first loading screen - "Torches can be used to inflict aoe fire damage...swarms hate fire damage"

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by GreenGoo » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:59 pm

IceBear wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:50 pm
One the first loading screen - "Torches can be used to inflict aoe fire damage...swarms hate fire damage"
Loading screen hints not explicit enough! Down vote entire game!

I kid.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Fretmute » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:01 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:59 pm
IceBear wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:50 pm
One the first loading screen - "Torches can be used to inflict aoe fire damage...swarms hate fire damage"
Loading screen hints not explicit enough! Down vote entire game!

I kid.
No option to disable loading screen spoilers! Down vote!

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Blackhawk » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:03 pm

Fretmute wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:00 pm

Right? You have 6 HP. You are always literally one sword swing away from death.
I'm looking at you, Cragmaw goblins.
[This space left intentionally blank.]

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by coopasonic » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:20 pm

coopasonic wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:48 pm
Shut up I have no time for this!!!
I would like to thank you all for dampening my enthusiasm for this game.
-Coop

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Paingod » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:23 pm

coopasonic wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:20 pm
coopasonic wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:48 pm
Shut up I have no time for this!!!
I would like to thank you all for dampening my enthusiasm for this game.
With lantern oil? I'm sure someone around here has a torch now.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Redfive » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:24 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:28 pm

Up until recently I would have agreed with you, but then I played some 5e. Now everyone is a freakin' ninja with ginzu blades. :wink: @red51ve
I don't have any idea what you're talking about.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Smoove_B » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:14 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:28 pm
That hasn't been true for like, several versions. Decades. Here's another eye opener. First level mages have more than 1 spell now too!
As I said, retired. I haven't seriously DM'd a session since about 1991. Get off my dungeon lawn!

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by coopasonic » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:26 pm

Paingod wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:23 pm
coopasonic wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:20 pm
coopasonic wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:48 pm
Shut up I have no time for this!!!
I would like to thank you all for dampening my enthusiasm for this game.
With lantern oil? I'm sure someone around here has a torch now.
If the choices are to develop a deep understanding of the Pathfinder system or reduce the difficulty to faceroll, then you may as well toss that molotov as neither of those are happening.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by IceBear » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:57 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:59 pm
IceBear wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:50 pm
One the first loading screen - "Torches can be used to inflict aoe fire damage...swarms hate fire damage"
Loading screen hints not explicit enough! Down vote entire game!

I kid.
No, I just meant that was the first time I have seen that message - probably came with the patch

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by wire » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:40 pm

IceBear wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:50 pm
One the first loading screen - "Torches can be used to inflict aoe fire damage...swarms hate fire damage"
I obviously missed that screen entirely.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by IceBear » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:52 pm

wire wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:40 pm
IceBear wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:50 pm
One the first loading screen - "Torches can be used to inflict aoe fire damage...swarms hate fire damage"
I obviously missed that screen entirely.
I suspect the patch added it. I had never seen it before and today a 1.9GB patch installed and when I loaded the game after, that was the first loading screen message I saw

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by wire » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:04 pm

Cool...I'm sure they got some complaints about the swarms. I knew how to kill them using fire I just didn't have any with me...or so I thought. I completely forgot about the everlasting torches in my inventory.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Zenn7 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:45 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:03 pm
Fretmute wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:00 pm
Right? You have 6 HP. You are always literally one sword swing away from death.
Sure, and newer versions of D&D have bleeding out, unconscious, bandaging etc to mitigate it somewhat.

Obviously though, level 1 characters suck, mostly because they are so fragile. Which is hilarious, given that they are supposed to be above and beyond your average peon. Farmers must melt when it rains.
Farmers are freaking tough! Even at higher levels we run from them in our PnP games!

First time our group got together, with this newish 2nd edition (way back in 95). We're all playing 2 characters (think there were 4 players to start with, so 8 characters). One of them is a ranger, he scouts ahead... a 1/2 mile ahead. He waves kindly at the farmers that pass him. We get to the farmers, they attacks us. We can't roll for crap so we're going down WAY faster than the farmers! DM decides that somehow, the 1/2 mile ahead ranger realizes we are fighting and he comes running back full speed (think the DM was generous, but I think still took 10 rounds or more). He got back and over 1/2 the party was down.

DM had to send in a his new favorite NPC he made up on the spot (the pixie riding the skunk) to save us from a TPK on our first encounter.

With farmers.

Ever since, we stay way away from farmers!

(The farmers were bandits in disguise).

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Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Carpet_pissr » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:08 pm

Zenn7 wrote:We get to the farmers, they attacks us.

(The farmers were bandits in disguise).
Tricksy farmersses!! We hates ‘em!

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Blackhawk » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:18 pm

In the current edition, it's easier to drop a player, but it's hard to kill them. For one thing, the lowest hit die is a d6, and you automatically get the max roll at first level. There are also There is no negative HP, and you get a minimum of three rolls before you die (although if you take massive damage you can still be one-shotted.) There are also some really simple low level healing spells that can be used in addition to the healer's regular actions. Oh, and clerics, paladins, bards, and druids are can all be effective healers.
[This space left intentionally blank.]

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by ydejin » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:25 am

IceBear wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:52 pm
wire wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:40 pm
IceBear wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:50 pm
One the first loading screen - "Torches can be used to inflict aoe fire damage...swarms hate fire damage"
I obviously missed that screen entirely.
I suspect the patch added it. I had never seen it before and today a 1.9GB patch installed and when I loaded the game after, that was the first loading screen message I saw
No, it was definitely there before. However, I tried going at it with torches in my Lvl 1 or 2 squad and got my ass handed to me. The torches do like 1 damage per turn, my team just melted away faster than we could damage them.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Max Peck » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:59 pm

I rolled up a new character this morning and have been running through the beginning of the game on normal difficulty in order to see how much difference a few hours experience with the UI and game systems makes to the difficulty curve. For the most part things have been going much more smoothly, even though I ended up with a slightly less balanced party (monk/fighter/barbarian/bard) than on my initial run (magus/fighter/barbarian/inquisitor). Nonetheless, my first try at the spiders ended in a full party wipe because I didn't have anything but the torches that would affect the swarms. I bought 4 alchemist fire potions and 4 acid flasks at the trade post and tried again. I used all but one of the grenades and was perilously close to wiping again, but I did beat them on the second try.

I've also run into the initial Technic League encounter. On my first character they seemed unbeatable on normal, but were not much of a problem this time. I guess the proof of the pudding will be how I fare at the Temple of the Elk, but I probably won't venture there until I have a full party with 3rd level characters.
Time and tide melt the snowman.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by hepcat » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:47 pm

So far I'm pleased by the developer's attentiveness. They're really keeping on top of things.

Still can't decide if I should play on normal or challenging though. The latest update seems to say normal is the intended choice for folks who don't play the PnP RPG it's based on...which I don't.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:23 pm

I don't feel that having to buy 8 potions to get past a low level encounter is reasonable.

Maybe on the hardest setting, but not on normal or even 1 above normal, assuming some granularity between difficulty settings.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by ColdSteel » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:57 pm

Max Peck wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:59 pm
I guess the proof of the pudding will be how I fare at the Temple of the Elk
Looks like that's been addressed in today's patch.
Changes to the difficulty.
We hear a lot of comments about the difficulty of the fights. We are introducing several changes - we introduce changes to the easier difficulty modes to enhance the player experience for those, who selected them. On the Story Mode difficulty, such mechanics as Damage Reduction, Damage Immunity, and Regeneration will be switched off, while on Easy mode their power will be reduced (less reduction or regeneration respectively). We are adding an additional warning to the Hard and Unfair modes to provide better information about upcoming challenges and the general difficulty of the game so that players can make an informed choice. We'd like to stress the Normal mode is a recommended one, especially for the people not familiar with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game system and for the first time players.

We are also making some changes to the some of the encounters in the prologue and 1st chapter of the game. To make it clear, we are not reducing general difficulty in all settings, we are fixing several places where this difficulty was not intentional. Also, we provide more information on overcoming the challenge in the place where it was:

Scare ability in the final fight in Prologue is changed to the communal Protection from Alignment: Good. There are almost no abilities to counter Scare effect in the prologue party, so this ability tends to make combat too chaotic and unnecessary random on the harder difficulty settings.

The first encounter on the road to the Oleg's Trading Post was never intended to be a great challenge, this area is still part of the tutorial, and difficulty of the fight is taking away from learning about the camp. Wolves were changed to Thylacines, their stats are close, but Thylacines have no trip ability.

Bokken will properly warn the player about the swarms in the cave and provide them with several flask of Alchemist's Fire. In addition, the tutorial about swarms and how to deal with them will be shown when entering the cave.
It should be mentioned that the 1st chapter's story is branching into the two different paths, making some of the encounters harder than desired on the first path selected.

Fangberry quest is very hard on low level. Resolution:
Bokken warns about quest difficulty and gives 6 flasks of Alchemist's Fire.
The special tutorial message is added about dealing with spider swarm.

Bear-like Treant in Temple of the Elk will now have less Damage Reduction.

Bear-like Treant fight difficulty is reduced if the player gets there earlier enough (at low levels and without previously following Tartuccio). The fix won't be applied for games saved within the area.


Some companions joined the party fatigued and damaged in Ancient Tomb and Old Sycamore areas. Resolution: fixed.

Ancient Tomb: persuaded companion now joins the party after a fight with Tartuccio's Mercenaries.

Random encounters with creatures too difficult to the current average party level could be rolled. Resolution: fixed
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Max Peck » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:10 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:23 pm
I don't feel that having to buy 8 potions to get past a low level encounter is reasonable.

Maybe on the hardest setting, but not on normal or even 1 above normal, assuming some granularity between difficulty settings.
Then I guess you really wouldn't like the number of cure light wounds potions you go through when the only healer in your party is a bard. :lol:

The problem wasn't that I needed to purchase the munitions in order to deal with the spider swarms. I actually like the fact that creatures have resistances and vulnerabilities, it adds tactical flavour. The problem was that the game did not provide any information about how to deal with them. At any rate, it appears that both aspects have been dealt with in the hotfix.

A friend of mine that has been playing Pathfinder for years suggested using the online reference document for the P&P game as a reference for things like game mechanics and critter stats. It can be found here, while the archived legacy version (which apparently has some additional information) is here.
Time and tide melt the snowman.

There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:26 pm

Normal gameplay should not require chugging consumables, unless the game is designed around consumables and it is a core game design mechanic.

No one thinks "ah, D&D, I really like how your success is dependent on your consumables management".

I'm not opposed to extreme preparation for extreme encounters, but a horde of spiders shouldn't be considered extreme.

I'm similarly opposed to chugging healing potions. Hell, I don't think your average character should have more than 2-3 potions on him, and that includes things like invisibility and giant strength.

That's my opinion anyway.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Jag » Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:44 pm

How the hell did I miss an isometric RPG from Kickstarter to release? Going to need to jump on this bandwagon quick. $31 on Fanatical. Not too far off from the regular backer price....hmm.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Blackhawk » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:08 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:23 pm
I don't feel that having to buy 8 potions to get past a low level encounter is reasonable.
If it makes any difference, they weren't drinkin' potions, they were the D&D/PF equivalent of single use grenades (think magical napalm in a glass bottle), and they're the same thing that they've announced a patch will be giving to players on that mission for free.

And the healing potion comment was in reference to having no real healer in the party. You don't find many classic RPGs that aren't balanced around the assumption of having at least one capable healer.
[This space left intentionally blank.]

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Madmarcus » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:30 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:26 pm
That's my opinion anyway.
Clearly there is no use in arguing opinions but I find it refreshing to have an RPG require the use of consumables. So often I find myself just storing them.

Moot point (for me at least) as even the very low requirements for the game are beyond my little computer.

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by RMC » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:44 am

So where can you get more camping supplies? I just got my 5th party member, but still only have 4 camping supplies, so I can't camp. It is a little silly, and really is starting to make me feel this game needs some polishing. It's a great game, but lots of little items that could make it so much better.
Difficulties mastered are opportunities won. - Winston Churchill
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Freyland » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:37 am

RMC wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:44 am
So where can you get more camping supplies? I just got my 5th party member, but still only have 4 camping supplies, so I can't camp. It is a little silly, and really is starting to make me feel this game needs some polishing. It's a great game, but lots of little items that could make it so much better.
Sounds like you better speed up that romance storyline as soon as possible.
I don't remember where I read this, Cort, maybe it was in the last patch notes, but they said the UAZ really handles the best when... the wheels are actually touching the ground.
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Max Peck » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:22 am

RMC wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:44 am
So where can you get more camping supplies?
You can buy more from Oleg. Also, if you camp in the wilderness then you can assign someone to hunt, which offsets the need for supplies.
Time and tide melt the snowman.

There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, where the sea's asleep and the rivers dream, people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice and somewhere else the tea is getting cold. Come on, Ace, we've got work to do.
-- The Doctor

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by RMC » Sat Sep 29, 2018 5:05 pm

Max Peck wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:22 am
RMC wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:44 am
So where can you get more camping supplies?
You can buy more from Oleg. Also, if you camp in the wilderness then you can assign someone to hunt, which offsets the need for supplies.
I looked and didn't see any. I must have missed them. Thanks.
Difficulties mastered are opportunities won. - Winston Churchill
Sheesh, this is one small box. Thankfully, everything's packed in nicely this time. Not too tight nor too loose (someone's sig in 3, 2, ...). - Hepcat

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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Madmarcus » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:51 pm

Back to the game! While my really low end mini-PC desktop can't run it I tried it on my Surface and it works just fine! I should have thought of that earlier. The only issue I have is that I can't easily hit tab to highlight everything without running the game in a window (which I hate). So far (still in the starter castle as I really didn't have much time to play after thinking about builds on weekend) nothing else needs the keyboard and the stylus works great.

I have no desire to force myself to use a high optimised character so I went to easy. Sensai switching to inquisitor after two levels so that I can use wisdom for combat. Traditional monk and a dex focus would possibly be better (Evasion instead of wisdom based combat) since I still want dex for the AC but I really like the idea of high wisdom with some of the inquisitor stuff. Do inquisitors get extra spells from wisdom? After the switch I'll move to using a monk weapon to keep flurry of blows. Has anyone seen any cool monk weapons?

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Paingod
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Paingod » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:13 am

Y'all went and made me re-install Pillars of Eternity (the last "great" RPG I bought but never played), and now I'm 8 hours in and have my own keep. I'm struggling with the largely unfamiliar classes, spells, and abilities - but learning.

I've basically tried to stop myself from buying more RPG's I'll never play, so I've got to play Pillars before I buy this.
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Victoria Raverna
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Re: Pathfinder: Kingmaker with Chris Avellone

Post by Victoria Raverna » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:51 am

Smoove_B wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:57 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:51 pm
Looking at this from an tabletop rpg perspective, encounters need to be challenging otherwise they are simply exp for the farming. This might be ok and expected in normal crpgs (rats in every crpg ever made, for example) but this is a pen and paper conversion. That doesn't mean that all encounters have to be life or death moments for all your characters, but they need to at least hint at killing you, otherwise they are just wasting your valuable time (from a pen and paper perspective).
Speaking as a retired DM, the single most difficult thing (in my experience) was creating a meaningful adventure for level 1 characters. The story and overall narrative isn't the problem, its the fact that the characters are so powerless. Even if you put them up against weak monsters, there's always the chance of bad die rolling or a missed saving throw that can really ruin the fun. As a human being that's rolling dice behind the scenes, that's easy to address. How the computer/AI manages to do it (if it's doing it at all) - that's a whole different story.
Why start at level 1? Just choose to start at maybe level 3 if starting at level 1 is a problem?

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