XCOM 2: War of the Chosen - Now talking about the new WOTC Long War Mod

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:45 pm

I eagerly await my commission.

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:35 pm

So if I've installed the vanilla XCOM 2, but haven't started it yet, am I better served getting any or all of the expansions before I do?

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:54 pm

Each expansion adds layers to the game. The layers each step up the difficulty and complexity.

When you fire up a new game and have all the expansions, you can decide what to enable. Just having the expansions purchased and installed doesn't mean you can't adjust your difficulty and experience by selection which to use. The base game is rock solid by itself, but doing something like adding in the Alien Hunters drops in huge bosses that appear randomly and gives you extra combat options.

Basically, I think the choice is yours. You can try a base game run and see how it feels, and then crank it up after a month or two of in-game play and seeing how it the experience is going for you.

Personally, I've got it all running at once. I plan to include this as well. It's going to be a lot of challenge to overcome.

NickAragua · Post by **NickAragua** » Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:00 pm

I honestly don't know.

If you're inclined to replay it later, then you may find just the base game to be less overwhelming. Or if you're like me, then you'll just throw everything else in anyway.

If you're just going to play it once, I recommend throwing everything and the kitchen sink in. The DLC ("Shen's Last Gift" and the one with the alien ruler guys) and upcoming expansion all add elements to the existing game, so you're still playing the same exact game after all is said and done, just with more bells and whistles.

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:23 pm

stimpy wrote:So if I've installed the vanilla XCOM 2, but haven't started it yet, am I better served getting any or all of the expansions before I do?

as of today its only DLC, which i think was great and liked it; you might not feel the need to buy em.

DLC- shen's last gift & alien hunters are must have. YOu can get those in the alien reinforcement pack 10 bucks i see. Don't activate alien hunters yet though, play the game through once, then activate them (basically the pack unleashes 3 beastly enemies on you, that last through multiple maps. It will take about 3 efforts to kill one. )

the only xpac to be released so far is coming up on Tuesday.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:44 pm

stimpy wrote:So if I've installed the vanilla XCOM 2, but haven't started it yet, am I better served getting any or all of the expansions before I do?

The expansions aren't necessary at all to the game.

XCOM 2: War of the Chosen - Expansion that impacts the game in many ways. Comes out Tuesday and subject of this thread.
XCOM 2: Reinforcement Pack - Pack containing the next three items
XCOM 2: Anarchy's Children - Cosmetic options for more variety in customization of soldier appearance
XCOM 2: Alien Hunters - Adds three alien rulers to the game and some unique weapons to deal with them. The Alien rulers are a HUGE pain in the neck, but the weapons are kind of cool, particularly the frost bomb and the bolt caster... heck even the axes.
XCOM 2: Shen's Last Gift - Adds SPARK units (robo-soldiers) and one scripted mission to unlock them
XCOM 2: Resistance Warrior Pack - This was the pre-order bonus from XCOM2, more cosmetic stuff, but much smaller than Anarchy's Children.

If anyone hasn't bought the game at all, I would recommend the Digital Deluxe at this point (this point being the weekend sale). It is $6 more than the base game and adds Anarchy's Children, Alien Hunters and Shen's Last Gift. $30 well spent. If you already have the base game, those three mods are available for $10 in the reinforcement pack. Probably still worth it, but not necessary, especially for your first play through.

Sadly War of the Chosen is priced at $40 and even though it can be had for $30 it's still a bit pricey... and I would absolutely NOT recommend it for your first campaign.

Buatha · Post by **Buatha** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:39 pm

Really? I was thinking it would be the "total" experience (maybe minus the Alien Hunters). What parts are you thinking will be too difficult for a first-time run, if you don't mind my asking?

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:46 pm

I think if you do War of the Chosen as your first experience with XCOM2 you are going to be overwhelmed with all that is going on. With research and construction and covert ops and healing and training and expanding and upgrading and bonding and experimenting and... and... oh yeah, fighting! Keeping an eye on all the different resources: supplies, intel, alloys, elerium, power, contacts, allies, soldiers and chosen knowledge progress and avatar project progress. I'm a little overwhelmed just thinking about it and I have played a LOT of XCOM2 including finishing Long War 2, which is in the same neighborhood of complexity.

NickAragua · Post by **NickAragua** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:07 pm

I'm of two minds about it. On the one hand, X-Com is awesome and I would want more X-Com and don't see how anybody could want less X-Com.

On the other hand, it really depends on how well Firaxis has done in terms of pacing the introduction of the new concepts. Do they just dump it all on you water bucket style? Do they dribble it out slowly enough that you have a chance to get used to it? Does it even matter with the number of new concepts introduced? Well, I guess I'll find out in a couple of weeks.

Buatha · Post by **Buatha** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:09 pm

Wow, okay, then.

Unfortunately, my gaming time is always limited, so doing 2 play-throughs is unlikely for me. I've suffered through Long War 1 at 130 hours (still not done), so I'm okay with some difficulty. Now, I started with Long War and found vanilla...a little limiting after trying to go back after being able to carry grenades and other items.

I guess I will have to play it by ear.

gameoverman · Post by **gameoverman** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:30 pm

I have the first of the new Xcoms and thought it was pretty good. Then I tried the free weekend Xcom 2. Damn! This is the biggest jump in a game franchise quality I can remember in a long, long time. Usually the next one in a series is just a tweaked version of the previous one, or they focus on one thing like graphics and it's basically otherwise the same game. This game feels like every aspect of it has been redone and honed to perfection. Kudos to the developers for not taking the easy way out and resting on their laurels.

jztemple2 · Post by **jztemple2** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:30 pm

Yeah, that's a good point to remind folks that XCOM 2 available for playing this weekend for free, so a good chance to give it a look if you haven't gotten it already.

gameoverman · Post by **gameoverman** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:02 pm

Oh yeah, sorry I didn't notice this thread was for a specific mod. These games have so many taglines, 'enemy within' etc, that I thought it was just an Xcom 2 thread.

jztemple2 · Post by **jztemple2** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:08 pm

gameoverman wrote:Oh yeah, sorry I didn't notice this thread was for a specific mod. These games have so many taglines, 'enemy within' etc, that I thought it was just an Xcom 2 thread.

Don't worry, soon no one will remember what it was like to play the vanilla version or even the Long War mod

Buatha · Post by **Buatha** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:23 pm

jztemple2 wrote:
gameoverman wrote:Oh yeah, sorry I didn't notice this thread was for a specific mod. These games have so many taglines, 'enemy within' etc, that I thought it was just an Xcom 2 thread.
Don't worry, soon no one will remember what it was like to play the vanilla version or even the Long War mod

Dude, after the Long War 1, vanilla seems so limiting. Other than maybe the out-matched air war, I'd consider it just right.

jztemple2 · Post by **jztemple2** » Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:15 pm

Article on PCGamesN, XCOM 2: War of the Chosen's bug fixes won't be added to the base game

As well as adding new factions and features in XCOM 2: War of the Chosen, Firaxis' expansion fixes bugs and problems that are still in the original XCOM 2. However, the developers have revealed that those fixes can't be made available to XCOM 2 players in a patch.

Patch gripes aside, as you can tell from our XCOM 2: War of the Chosen review, we're big fans.

Answering a question on Twitter, Firaxis said that too much of the game was changed in making the expansion to apply War of the Chosen's fixes to vanilla XCOM 2:

War of the Chosen fixes aren't available for the base game. The XCOM 2 code base was rebuilt to implement new and update existing systems.
Naturally, as you can see in the replies to the tweet above, XCOM 2 players aren't thrilled with this news. Still, all the more reason to jump into War of the Chosen - though, I doubt it will be long till there are conspiracy theories suggesting this is why there isn't a patch.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:33 pm

I think Steam thinks I should get the expansion...

Is this DLC relevant to you?
277 hours played in base game
15 friends want this game:
9 friends already own this game:

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:56 am

Answering a question on Twitter, Firaxis said that too much of the game was changed in making the expansion to apply War of the Chosen's fixes to vanilla XCOM 2. They elaborated and noted that the expense of having an intern copy and paste the new code and call it a patch could hamper efforts to sell the expansion.

I know that's snarky and there's more work involved, but they've done the legwork to fix the bugs and it wouldn't be a stretch to put in the effort to apply the game engine fixes as a patch.

I'll still get this shortly, though. I've just got very limited game time and all of our monies are going towards real life expenses - car repairs, home repairs, pet repairs...

Buatha · Post by **Buatha** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:39 am

I have no factual evidence, but I'm guessing they are believing this expansion will just BE the game after release. I wonder if they did some sort of research and realized that no one really plays XCOM without using Enemy Within. I bought the iPad version of Unknown, and now it's not even available...only Enemy Within.

NickAragua · Post by **NickAragua** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:27 am

Paingod wrote:
Answering a question on Twitter, Firaxis said that too much of the game was changed in making the expansion to apply War of the Chosen's fixes to vanilla XCOM 2. They elaborated and noted that the expense of having an intern copy and paste the new code and call it a patch could hamper efforts to sell the expansion.
I know that's snarky and there's more work involved, but they've done the legwork to fix the bugs and it wouldn't be a stretch to put in the effort to apply the game engine fixes as a patch.

I'll still get this shortly, though. I've just got very limited game time and all of our monies are going towards real life expenses - car repairs, home repairs, pet repairs...

That's not actually how "patching back" works. Especially If you re-write some piece of code from the ground up for the next version, then you can't just "have an intern copy and paste it" into the previous version. Unless you want the previous version to stop working completely, then go go for it.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:28 am

Buatha wrote:I have no factual evidence, but I'm guessing they are believing this expansion will just BE the game after release. I wonder if they did some sort of research and realized that no one really plays XCOM without using Enemy Within. I bought the iPad version of Unknown, and now it's not even available...only Enemy Within.

You're probably right.

They're not worried about patching the original game because anyone who's played it and liked it enough to play it long enough to run into bugs is 95%+ guaranteed to buy the expansion. It's a shrewd decision to save money on development.

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:37 am

So i wonder how big the DLC is. I've seen 20-30GB. Wondering because i want to see how big of a Dload it will be, since i doubt they will allow preloading. 30Gb seems quite a bit much.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:18 pm

I saw 32GB on reddit, I don't know if that's true. I just want it to download tonight so I can play tomorrow. Here's hoping GMG gets keys out before I go to bed.

jztemple2 · Post by **jztemple2** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:58 pm

coopasonic wrote:Here's hoping GMG gets keys out before I go to bed.

Just before 6pm Eastern Daylight Time right now and still no GMG keys. I saved 25% so I can't complain (oh yes I can!) but I guess it's going to mean a massive slam on the servers sometime this evening, whether sometime in the few hours before unlock or right at midnight before it unlocks for everyone. Or of course the GMG keys might not come till tomorrow

Victoria Raverna · Post by **Victoria Raverna** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:08 pm

NickAragua wrote:
Paingod wrote:
Answering a question on Twitter, Firaxis said that too much of the game was changed in making the expansion to apply War of the Chosen's fixes to vanilla XCOM 2. They elaborated and noted that the expense of having an intern copy and paste the new code and call it a patch could hamper efforts to sell the expansion.
I know that's snarky and there's more work involved, but they've done the legwork to fix the bugs and it wouldn't be a stretch to put in the effort to apply the game engine fixes as a patch.

I'll still get this shortly, though. I've just got very limited game time and all of our monies are going towards real life expenses - car repairs, home repairs, pet repairs...
That's not actually how "patching back" works. Especially If you re-write some piece of code from the ground up for the next version, then you can't just "have an intern copy and paste it" into the previous version. Unless you want the previous version to stop working completely, then go go for it.

If it is possible play the plain XCOM 2 without the expansion but with the bug fixes after you bought the expansion, then it is not hard to make the bug fixes available for those that don't have the expansion.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:40 pm

Victoria Raverna wrote:If it is possible play the plain XCOM 2 without the expansion but with the bug fixes after you bought the expansion, then it is not hard to make the bug fixes available for those that don't have the expansion.

Looking at the start up screens (from watching Youtubers, I can't play just yet!) it does not look there is a way to play Vanilla with War of the Chosen installed. You can disable the Lost, but not the rest of the expansion content.

NickAragua · Post by **NickAragua** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:57 pm

Victoria Raverna wrote:
NickAragua wrote:
Paingod wrote:
Answering a question on Twitter, Firaxis said that too much of the game was changed in making the expansion to apply War of the Chosen's fixes to vanilla XCOM 2. They elaborated and noted that the expense of having an intern copy and paste the new code and call it a patch could hamper efforts to sell the expansion.
I know that's snarky and there's more work involved, but they've done the legwork to fix the bugs and it wouldn't be a stretch to put in the effort to apply the game engine fixes as a patch.

I'll still get this shortly, though. I've just got very limited game time and all of our monies are going towards real life expenses - car repairs, home repairs, pet repairs...
That's not actually how "patching back" works. Especially If you re-write some piece of code from the ground up for the next version, then you can't just "have an intern copy and paste it" into the previous version. Unless you want the previous version to stop working completely, then go go for it.
If it is possible play the plain XCOM 2 without the expansion but with the bug fixes after you bought the expansion, then it is not hard to make the bug fixes available for those that don't have the expansion.

I'm going to assume that you're speaking out of general lack of knowledge about software development. The amount of effort involved in patching back features and bugfixes to earlier versions of a particular non-trivial software artifact ranges from "trivial" to "herculean", depending on how much the affected code changed. But even then, just off the top of my head, for a particular bugfix / feature, you'll need:

1. (Possibly) a designer to figure out if the bugfix/feature is relevant to the previous version
2. A developer to manually (or with the aid of a version control system, which reduces the time taken) apply code changes to the previous version, and probably spot check to see if it still works
3. A QA dude to fully test the relevant feature

Repeat steps 1-3 in any order an arbitrary number of times until the QA dude says "all clear" on the changes.

Each of those steps takes time, which means it takes money. At this point you get into financial management, which I'm not an expert at, but presumably it's been decided at some level that the money it would take to patch stuff back to the base game isn't going to result in a worthwhile dividend (in "community goodwill" or real money). So at this point, the company either eats the financial loss from patching stuff back or raises the cost of the expansion to cover the additional development time, basically asking the people who buy the expansion to cover fixes for the people who didn't.

So my point is that, while I can understand the sentiment behind "it sucks that the base game isn't getting bug fixes from the expansion", "not hard" is not a term that I would use to describe patching code changes between radically different versions of a software artifact.

Victoria Raverna · Post by **Victoria Raverna** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:39 pm

NickAragua wrote:
Victoria Raverna wrote:
NickAragua wrote:
Paingod wrote:
Answering a question on Twitter, Firaxis said that too much of the game was changed in making the expansion to apply War of the Chosen's fixes to vanilla XCOM 2. They elaborated and noted that the expense of having an intern copy and paste the new code and call it a patch could hamper efforts to sell the expansion.
I know that's snarky and there's more work involved, but they've done the legwork to fix the bugs and it wouldn't be a stretch to put in the effort to apply the game engine fixes as a patch.

I'll still get this shortly, though. I've just got very limited game time and all of our monies are going towards real life expenses - car repairs, home repairs, pet repairs...
That's not actually how "patching back" works. Especially If you re-write some piece of code from the ground up for the next version, then you can't just "have an intern copy and paste it" into the previous version. Unless you want the previous version to stop working completely, then go go for it.
If it is possible play the plain XCOM 2 without the expansion but with the bug fixes after you bought the expansion, then it is not hard to make the bug fixes available for those that don't have the expansion.
I'm going to assume that you're speaking out of general lack of knowledge about software development. The amount of effort involved in patching back features and bugfixes to earlier versions of a particular non-trivial software artifact ranges from "trivial" to "herculean", depending on how much the affected code changed. But even then, just off the top of my head, for a particular bugfix / feature, you'll need:

1. (Possibly) a designer to figure out if the bugfix/feature is relevant to the previous version
2. A developer to manually (or with the aid of a version control system, which reduces the time taken) apply code changes to the previous version, and probably spot check to see if it still works
3. A QA dude to fully test the relevant feature

Repeat steps 1-3 in any order an arbitrary number of times until the QA dude says "all clear" on the changes.

Each of those steps takes time, which means it takes money. At this point you get into financial management, which I'm not an expert at, but presumably it's been decided at some level that the money it would take to patch stuff back to the base game isn't going to result in a worthwhile dividend (in "community goodwill" or real money). So at this point, the company either eats the financial loss from patching stuff back or raises the cost of the expansion to cover the additional development time, basically asking the people who buy the expansion to cover fixes for the people who didn't.

So my point is that, while I can understand the sentiment behind "it sucks that the base game isn't getting bug fixes from the expansion", "not hard" is not a term that I would use to describe patching code changes between radically different versions of a software artifact.

My statement is based on the assumption that people with expansion can disable the War of the Chosen addition but still have the bug fixes. If that is so then it is really not hard to give it to people without expansion. All they need to do is to have the same code for both people with and without the expansion but the different is that for the one don't have the expansion, the War of the Chosen addition can't be enabled.

So there is no need of two versions, bring everyone to latest version and then disable the features (expansion addition) that you need to pay for. That is pretty much what most developers do with the same situation. Make it easier for them to maintain.

NickAragua · Post by **NickAragua** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:10 pm

Victoria Raverna wrote:My statement is based on the assumption that people with expansion can disable the War of the Chosen addition but still have the bug fixes. If that is so then it is really not hard to give it to people without expansion. All they need to do is to have the same code for both people with and without the expansion but the different is that for the one don't have the expansion, the War of the Chosen addition can't be enabled.

So there is no need of two versions, bring everyone to latest version and then disable the features (expansion addition) that you need to pay for. That is pretty much what most developers do with the same situation. Make it easier for them to maintain.

That seems like a less expensive approach, and pretty reasonable on the surface. We don't really know for sure since we're not familiar with the particulars of the code. Perhaps the expansion features are deeply integrated into the code, so they can't really be entirely disabled. Or maybe Steam (and whoever else) charges an arm and a leg for game updates. Or maybe there's some money-grubbing involved.

I guess, at the end of the day, I'm inclined to believe that Firaxis are reasonably competent and operating in good faith.

jztemple2 · Post by **jztemple2** » Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:20 pm

Just occurred to me that maybe the keys haven't been released because they don't want to do any pre-loading, as that would screw up the vanilla game. So no playing tonight I guess

jztemple2 · Post by **jztemple2** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:09 am

So, anyone started downloading WOTC yet? I still haven't gotten my key from GMG, but according to a thread on the XCOM2 Steam discussions page, no one else has either.

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:04 am

I downloaded it...30.1Gb. Took me under an hour (guess i have pretty fast internet, use to take forever to dload something that size). Booted it up, there is an option to select war of hte chosen & vanilla xcom. Also has some interesting advanced options (ie doubel mission timer length). Not gonna do much more. Will try to get into it at some point tomorrow.

Bought it through steam, fyi.

gbasden · Post by **gbasden** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:06 am

Yeah, still waiting on GMG. This being late with the keys trend is not awesome.

Stuie · Post by **Stuie** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:48 am

gbasden wrote:Yeah, still waiting on GMG. This being late with the keys trend is not awesome.

Sounds like GMG keys just started going out in batches; they say it will be a few hours before they get through them all. Was hoping to get an hour in before work but oh well.

Greybriar · Post by **Greybriar** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:46 am

gbasden wrote:Yeah, still waiting on GMG. This being late with the keys trend is not awesome.

+1

There's a couple of messages by GMGAlex on Reddit that read:

"Hello,

We're sorry for the disruption and delay in getting your keys out. We are releasing the keys right now, and you should have your keys shortly so please check your email.

If you have requested a refund, we are currently processing your requests and you will receive your refund today.

For further updates and info, please check our Community site:

And

"The first batch has gone out and we're working on further batches at the moment, so you should receive your key shortly. Sorry for the wait."

I wish I'd bought if from Steam and paid full price. I could have played it by now if I had.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:50 am

Key just appeared in my account at 0548CDT, no email yet. Download started. *taps fingers impatiently* At least I should be able to get Gatecrasher done this morning.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:55 am

Greybriar wrote:I wish I'd bought if from Steam and paid full price. I could have played it by now if I had.

I know the feeling, but considering it objectively we paid a little bit less and took some risk with GMG. BY tomorrow this delay will be largely forgotten, but $10? That's like the difference between a lunch and a decent lunch!

RMC · Post by **RMC** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 6:59 am

Downloaded.... But leaving for work... <sigh>

Sectoid · Post by **Sectoid** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:22 am

Paingod wrote:I've just got very limited game time and all of our monies are going towards real life expenses - car repairs, home repairs, pet repairs...

Pet repairs? I don't think that is how pets work.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Tue Aug 29, 2017 7:23 am

Sectoid wrote:
Paingod wrote:I've just got very limited game time and all of our monies are going towards real life expenses - car repairs, home repairs, pet repairs...
Pet repairs? I don't think that is how pets work.

It certainly is when the vet tells you the dog needs a $2,900 surgery to repair a tendon he pulled running through holes dug by another dog.