Oxygen Not Included!

[GreenGoo]

I'm also researching much more slowly than in my last game. Last game my tech outstripped my ability to implement it by a wide margin. There is no need to have researched plastics if you're not in a position to make plastics, for example.

This game I was much less focused on making research a priority. I think I'm a bit behind on my research, so I probably slowed down a bit too much. Somewhere between last game and this game is probably the sweet spot.

[GreenGoo]

Oh, and I spent an unreasonable number of cycles dealing with CO2 build up in my current game. I waited a bit long to get a carbon scrubber up and running, and I was determined to put it at the bottom of my base, so my dups spent 1/2 of each cycle for like a week just running to catch their breath. I wasted huge amounts of my dups time. Oops.

Temporary Algae Terrariums down in the depths could have prevented the lost time due to running for breath, without costing an arm and a leg in water and algae. Whoops.

[GreenGoo]

Can you take a look at jahws water sieve design here:

jahws build patterns

You can click on the washroom sieve loop link on the right hand side to jump right to it.

Could you tell me why he's using all those liquid bridges? I know from experience that simple tee joints mostly work, but jahws emphasizes the use of bridges (even when not jumping 1 pipe over another) and I don't understand why. He mentions the same build pattern in his early game guide but again not in enough detail for me to understand why he's doing what he's doing. Or at least I didn't see it, maybe I missed it.

Since I now have a little experience with plumbing, if I had to guess, and I do, it's to prevent backflow. Tee joints can and do experience some flow reversals, especially immediately after they are built and the water is turned back on, until the flow normalizes. Once the flow normalizes however, things work as you'd expect. Here though, not all pipes flow at the same time, which could cause additional backflow later on, I'm guessing. I'm also guessing that because of the nature of bridges (with a hardcoded inflow and outflow) that there is no way for bridges to backflow.

Does that sound right? I t has been bugging me for awhile now, and I'm revisiting it again so I thought I'd ask.

He says this:

All that... creative... Liquid Bridge work is designed to optimize out the Liquid Pumps. As much as possible, the Washroom's output will automatically be fed directly to the Water Sieve, no additional Liquid Pump action required!

None of that requires bridges though. I'm certain he had a point here, but imo he failed to make it and I'm not experienced enough to guess what it was.

You can see this bridge usage more clearly at the exit of the sieve. He claims that the excess water will *always* cross the bridge to the washrooms, and only if that water is not flowing will the sieve exit water be poured into the reservoir below. I'm not saying that's not true, I'm saying I don't understand why that would be.

edit: Aha! moment. I found an archived klei forum post that explains the nature of bridges a little better. With that knowledge I think I've got jahws design figured out. bridges "teleport" material (gas and liquid bridges work the same) from their intake to their outlet, which means there is no "splitting" of pipe at a bridge. Not in the traditional sense. So any liquid that reaches the intake of a bridge automatically appears at the outlet. The only time (I'm guessing) this doesn't happen is when there is no room at the outlet. I.e. liquid is not flowing away from the outlet. Which means that if you attach a bridge to the middle of pipe, creating a tee intersection, water will ALWAYS flow across the bridge first. It's like a backflow (I was right! sorta) valve and a priority path (not sure if there is a real world equivalent. Probably). Water cannot go from the outlet to the intake preventing backflow, unlike a normal tee intersection.

Another result of the teleporting nature of a bridge in this game is that the material is never inside the bridge, which means if you want to transport cold water through a hot environment, you can build a pipe that's all bridges and the water is never in the bridges, so no heat transfer can occur. Wacky and somewhat exploitative of the game design, but whatever.

I will say that it's cool that he uses it as a closed loop waste water reclamation system for the bathroom, minimizing the need for using potable water in the toilet (Smoove would be pleased!). It's a LOT of work for that though, especially if water is eventually an infinite resource. Before that point however, it's pretty cool.

[GreenGoo]

I'm disappointed jahws talks about entering the caustic biome in his early guide, but spends very little time on dealing with decontamination. He's got a sink for washing when entering the base, but later he talks about mining more algae from outside the starting biome to use in your oxygenators, but at no point does he talk about decontaminating it.

Which is probably related to how slimelung propagates. I assumed that once you dig up some slime with slimelung on it, slimelung germs spread like crazy to everything near it, including neighbouring terrain. i.e. unmined ore/algae/whatever.

Since you can't bring slime into your base without contaminating the base (not sure if an ore scrubber would clean it enough, or at all), I assumed you couldn't bring in ore/algae from the swamp/caustic biomes either. Is that assumption wrong?

I guess I should probably just find out for myself.

[Sepiche]

Honestly, I've never played without germs (except before they were in the game), but I don't do too much worrying about making sure every little germ doesn't get into my base.

I'll make sure that:
1) Exposed slime is walled off
2) Nothing that emits pollution is left lying around
3) Entrances are sealed with simple airlocks
4) Deodorizers are spread around my base
5) Sinks are at key locations

That's about it.

The only time I have issues is when a miner is doing a lot of work (multiple cycles) in a slime biome. Then I'll switch him off the job occasionally to give his immune system a rest or setup deodorizers around him, but otherwise it's very rare to have an issue with slimelung.

Even if someone does get it... few cycles in a medibed and they are fine.

[GreenGoo]

Ok, I'll try to ask specific questions to make it easier for you to answer.

1) What is the germ situation from bringing ore from the swamp biome into your base?
2) You say you can just medbed a slimelung victim, but aren't they busy spreading slimelung around your base before and on the way to the med center? Once the germs are loose, aren't you screwed?

I never considered bringing air born slimelung germs into the base. I probably should have. I will now. Airlocks it is.
Surface germs on dupes can be handled with a simple sink, I think.
I don't know how bringing resources in from outside works. Which means I can't provide a solution because I don't know the problem.

The answer to 1) and 2) will probably be enough to allow me to move forward with my base design.

[Sepiche]

Ok, I'll try to ask specific questions to make it easier for you to answer.

1) What is the germ situation from bringing ore from the swamp biome into your base?
2) You say you can just medbed a slimelung victim, but aren't they busy spreading slimelung around your base before and on the way to the med center? Once the germs are loose, aren't you screwed?

I never considered bringing air born slimelung germs into the base. I probably should have. I will now. Airlocks it is.
Surface germs on dupes can be handled with a simple sink, I think.

The answer to 1) and 2) will probably be enough to allow me to move forward with my base design.

1) I've never seen a reason to clean the ore as it comes in. For me it goes into a storage bin that will get disinfected if it gets too bad, or it goes straight into building something
2) Sure, but in trace amounts that are easily cleaned up. I also put a sink or two at the entrance to my medical ward so anyone leaving will usually wash their hands.

It generally takes prolonged exposure to large quantities of germs to weaken a duplicant to the point they get sick. I've only ever seen it happen when one was being forced to breathe polluted air for extended periods. The trace amounts of germs that will occasionally get into your base are easily cleaned up by your duplicants. I also don't sweat having sinks everywhere someone might get germs... as long as there are some spread around and your duplicants use them occasionally that should be enough to keep germs down.

If you turn on the germ view that does a really good job of giving you an idea where the dangerous spots are so you can deal with them.

Edit: This might clear things up too. It's a more detailed look at how germs act in the game. Main takeaway: slimelung only thrives on slime or in polluted air. Remove those two things and it will slowly die off with or without your duplicants disinfecting it.

[GreenGoo]

I get all that. I've been watching the germ overlay since I started playing because it gives good insight to how the germ system works.

My last game resulted in serious slimelung infestation, and it felt like once the germs were inside, it was over. I understand that slimelung can be cured, but there was so much slimelung in the air and on surfaces that it didn't matter because everyone was covered in it all the time.

I've read other accounts that describe things as you do re: just spend time in the medbed etc, but that was of little help in my last game. Obviously I'm missing something significant.

I guess I'll go ahead start doing what you describe:

1) sink
2) Store slime outside
3) airlock
4) Not worry about bringing contaminated ore inside.

And see how that goes. If it doesn't work out, well, I'm about ready for a new game anyway.

Edit: This might clear things up too. It's a more detailed look at how germs act in the game. Main takeaway: slimelung only thrives on slime or in polluted air. Remove those two things and it will slowly die off with or without your duplicants disinfecting it.

Bingo. That's the piece of the puzzle I was missing. Slimelung dies if it's not on slime (or polluted air). Even if it dies slowly, that's a lot different than growing.

Thanks very much.

edit: Whoops, last thing. I read about people "trapping" their sick dupes in the med area. Giving them some food sources and a toilet, then locking the door. Is this really necessary? Won't diseased dupes stay in bed (or in the vicinity at least) until cured?

[Sepiche]

I'll post a screenshot of my latest base tonight too if I get a chance. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've lasted past cycle 100 in the past without any problems.

Sinks (or wash basins) are probably a key part of keeping it from spreading.

[GreenGoo]

I'd love a look at your base, but I think you've given me the missing piece that I was searching for. Time to experiment.

[Lorini]

Keep sweeping. Dupes do not like a trashy floor.

[GreenGoo]

Keep sweeping. Dupes do not like a trashy floor.

In my first base I picked up every single thing that ever dropped. I'm sure I had in excess of 30 storage units.

This game I've been much more lax, and there is debris everywhere, although I have assigned sweep jobs to the major populated rooms, the dupes are slow to prioritize them (I assume it's the tidy priority). So far everyone is still happy enough, for now.

You're absolutely right though, decor takes a major hit from stuff on the floor.

[GreenGoo]

Couple of chlorine gas pockets in the way of my expansion. Any hints on how to handle them?

edit: Looking closer, I can't really expand without hitting chlorine. I assume it's deadly toxic and not just unbreathable, so now that I think I know how to handle slimelung, I need to learn how to deal with chlorine.

Avoiding it isn't really an option right now.

An airlock is by definition impervious to gas flow, is it not? Is there a reason to build 1 of them back to back? Or even 3? I'm watching a video where the guy builds 3 of them together to "more effectively keep the gas from getting into his base". Does that make sense to you guys?

Lorini has already mentioned water locks, so I'm guessing airlocks aren't 100% effective?

[Sepiche]

Couple of chlorine gas pockets in the way of my expansion. Any hints on how to handle them?

edit: Looking closer, I can't really expand without hitting chlorine. I assume it's deadly toxic and not just unbreathable, so now that I think I know how to handle slimelung, I need to learn how to deal with chlorine.

Avoiding it isn't really an option right now.

Afaik it's just another gas your duplicants can't breathe, but it's not toxic on contact or anything. It's slightly lighter than CO2 and will sit on top of that layer in your base.

For stuff like that I'll usually build a simple 2 door airlock to keep the bulk of the gas out. The only time you'll run into too many problems with that is if the gas is under a much higher pressure than in your base.

If you want to be really hardcore, some people will fill their storage rooms with chlorine so all germs will be killed off in the act of storing items.

[GreenGoo]

Ok, that's weird. C02 will kill you, but mainly because it's not oxygen. I thought chlorine had the added bonus of being extremely poisonous, which is different from suffocation. In any case, the wiki agrees with you, so that's cool, and a relief.

Can you elaborate on the 2 airlock system? Do you mean 2 airlocks adjacent to each other, or something a little more complicated?

[Sepiche]

Can you elaborate on the 2 airlock system? Do you mean 2 airlocks adjacent to each other, or something a little more complicated?

Yeah, just 2 doors with a little space in the middle. That's generally enough to keep gases from pouring in, but if that's not enough to can use an air pump to pull air out of the airlock and send it back outside.

Here's my current base:


Not as anal retentive as some of the bases I've seen, but it does the job.

[GreenGoo]

Cool, thanks for sharing!

One of my pet peeves about games like this, not just this game, is that efficiency tends to result in a very blocky, samey base, with stackable room designs and just general maximized use of space that ends up looking like block housing.

Yours has enough variation to give it a lot of character.

I've been trying to avoid too much samey design, which is easy at the beginning because you are constrained by space and certain map features. So mine looks like a muddled mess, which I actually prefer to a certain extent. I don't like the inefficiencies that come with it, but it is what it is.

Couple more questions if people are willing.

1) Mealwood used to not benefit from the greenhouse room. Is that still the case in the current version?

Actually, I think that's it for now.

I read up on liquid locks and the basic one is pretty straight forward. There is also talk of the same design but using gases, which I think makes sense. If you fill the depression with the heaviest gas, C02, then it should stay in the hole and keep other gases out. Now in reality moving through the gas would create enough circulation that the lighter and heavier gases would mix, but as far as the game goes, I don't know if that's true. I'm going to try out the gas lock, and if it doesn't work, it's easy to convert it to a water lock.

My paralysis is finally over, I think, although I have yet to venture out. I've designed a staging area with sink, gas lock and storage units. Now it's up to my dupes to build it. I had built up almost to the edges of my starting biome which didn't leave me with a lot of room to maneuver, but I think I've got it.

I guess I should probably get a medcenter up and running too, for the inevitable slimelung infection. Can't be too careful, and having it in place ahead of time might save someone's life (although playing with strong immunity systems, I should be fine).

edit: Wait, nope, here's a couple more.

2) What does the crop tending trait do? I know you need it to make a farming station work, but is that all it does?
3) You only need a farming station to make a greenhouse. The greenhouse tooltip says it increases growth rate. Is that independent of the farming station actually being used?
4) Farming station. Does it work outside a greenhouse? Or is 3) and 4) the same thing? You need both a station AND a greenhouse to get a bonus? Is it a single bonus for the combined nature of the two (station + room)?

Doesn't appear to be a lot of information out there.

edit2: So there is no information under greenhouse or farming station in the wiki, but under room overlays-> greenhouse, there is this:

Crops grown within a greenhouse can be tended by farmers to increase their growth speed.

Farm Station
Minimum size 12 tiles
Maximum size 96 tiles

The room itself has no effect. Duplicants who have mastered the Farmer Job can make Micronutrient Fertilizer at the Farm Station to apply a double growth speed buff for 1 cycle at the cost of 5kg of Fertilizer per plant.

Assuming that is accurate, that answers my questions. Also assuming that crop tending and micronutrient fertilizer crafting aren't separate things.

[GreenGoo]

Things that annoy me:

Almost all hotkeys are a toggle. Hit them once, thing happens. Hit them again, thing stops happening.

Several do not do this.

P: Priority overlay. P again, nothing happens. Hit escape to exit priority overlay.
R: Research screen. R again, nothing happens. Hit escape to exit research screen.
L: Job screen. L again, nothing happens. Hit escape to exit job screen.

Annoying. I'm left handed and the escape key is not convenient.

[Unagi]

Things that annoy me:

Almost all hotkeys are a toggle. Hit them once, thing happens. Hit them again, thing stops happening.

Several do not do this.

P: Priority overlay. P again, nothing happens. Hit escape to exit priority overlay.
R: Research screen. R again, nothing happens. Hit escape to exit research screen.
L: Job screen. L again, nothing happens. Hit escape to exit job screen.

Annoying. I'm left handed and the escape key is not convenient.

(I'm lurking and also learning this game as you are)

That annoyed me too until I stumbled on the fact that the Right Mouse Button takes you out of those screens.

[GreenGoo]

Awesome, I'll have to try it!

To my embarrassment I sometimes forget to turn off my current tool with a right click as well, meaning I sometimes mark stuff for digging or deconstruction that I don't mean to do.

I'm getting better.

And thanks, that's gonna help a lot.

[GreenGoo]

And it happened. I'm not sure how it happened, but it looks like I told my dudes to build a wall tile to prevent exposure to the slime at the other end of a pocket, but when they broke down the ore to replace it with a tile, dirty, slimelung riddled water poured out. I'm seriously unsure of how I missed the fact that the pocket was full of polluted water, but here we are.

On the plus side it was at the bottom of a deep shaft. Also on the plus side, my digger dude managed to avoid getting any on him/her. I was then able to force build the wall which closed off most of the water and slimelung, leaving a small 2 square deep pool of water at the bottom. Very shortly afterward, all the slimelung died.

So, huzzah! Despite my best efforts, slimelung made into the base, but luckily it died almost right away.

I'm realizing as I'm watching my digger dude catch her breath over and over again, that I've made my decontamination room far more complex than necessary. It looks cool, but I don't know how I'm gonna get enough oxygen into it. My plan is a temporary algae pile to fill it up, and then turn it off, leaving it there until all the oxygen has been used up, then turning it on again. I think that will work, as the chamber should be hermetically sealed. dudes shouldn't use too much O2 while passing through. We'll see.

And my bristle berry crop finally came in, so despite several iffy cycles where more than one dupe was starving, everyone lived and now I have more food than I'd need for 2 cycles at least. Combine that will continued meal lice production and some off schedule bristle plants, and I think my food issues are at an end, for now.

[Lorini]

Your colonies will differ once you really know the game.

Air locks don’t work completely. Water locks are perfect, just make sure the lock stays put.

Chlorine will kill your plants.

Farming stations only work within a greenhouse. You’ll get way more food with a farmer and a greenhouse and fertilizer.

[GreenGoo]

Farming stations only work within a greenhouse. You’ll get way more food with a farmer and a greenhouse and fertilizer.

Ok I've got that going on, so I should be good for food for awhile.

I mistakenly (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) made 2 greenhouses, 1 for mealwood and 1 for bristle blossoms. I think I'm getting no benefit from the mealwood greenhouse. Is that right? I should be able to pull the farm station then?

[Formix]

So the SPOM build talks about using different materials to build walls, floors, etc. How do you tell your dupes, hey build this thing out of this material?

[Lorini]

So the SPOM build talks about using different materials to build walls, floors, etc. How do you tell your dupes, hey build this thing out of this material?

Anytime you build anything from material, look to the lower right and you'll see a list of materials you have. This is key for when you start getting iron ore or gold amalgam as you want to switch to those as soon as possible. You need copper ore for exosuits.

[Lorini]

Farming stations only work within a greenhouse. You’ll get way more food with a farmer and a greenhouse and fertilizer.

Ok I've got that going on, so I should be good for food for awhile.

I mistakenly (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) made 2 greenhouses, 1 for mealwood and 1 for bristle blossoms. I think I'm getting no benefit from the mealwood greenhouse. Is that right? I should be able to pull the farm station then?

Mealwood doesn't benefit from greenhouses and you don't want to do that because it splits the farmer's time.

[Unagi]

(random): I can't help but read 'Cool Steam Vent' as if someone is excited to find a neat looking steam vent, not 'low in temperature'.

[GreenGoo]

Slimelung is creeping into my base through a tile that is in contact with slime on the other side. Several dupes are host carriers now.

[GreenGoo]

Found a chlorine geyser right where I was planning on putting my mushroom farm. Since I don't want vast quantities of chlorine right where the geyser is, I stopped excavating it.

Had to completely revamp my swamp biome expansion, but I think I'll be ok. I can still use the infrastructure I set up with a gas lock (gonna switch it to a water lock probably. Not managing the gases in the area very well) and mechanized air lock and slime storage and staging area.

[Formix]

Lorini,
So, just because I have a material, the walls, etc will automatically be built out of the better materials?

[Lorini]

Lorini,
So, just because I have a material, the walls, etc will automatically be built out of the better materials?

You have to choose the material to build with. The game will default to whatever appropriate material you have the most of, but that's not always what you want to build with. Some materials transfer heat at a higher rate than others. And some hold temperature better than others. You really need to look at this when building in very hot or cold environments. For example you need to use gold amalgam to build liquid pumps in petroleum, using copper will cause the pump to break.

[LordMortis]

Lorini,
So, just because I have a material, the walls, etc will automatically be built out of the better materials?

You have to choose the material to build with. The game will default to whatever appropriate material you have the most of, but that's not always what you want to build with. Some materials transfer heat at a higher rate than others. And some hold temperature better than others. You really need to look at this when building in very hot or cold environments. For example you need to use gold amalgam to build liquid pumps in petroleum, using copper will cause the pump to break.

Really?

[Lorini]

There's a reason everything isn't just called rock .

[GreenGoo]

3 of my 10 dupes now have slimelung. I have exactly one medical bed. My base is almost completely clear of the germ, but I've been clearing some space in the swamp biome and the polluted air in there is just teeming with it.

Despite my paranoia and what I thought were extraordinary steps, the disease now has a foothold.

edit: Cured 1. Added 2 more med beds.

[GreenGoo]

edit: Screw it, conflicting info.

[GreenGoo]

My current problem is vast quantities of polluted oxygen with pools of polluted water, mined but not stored slime, and stored slime all emitting polluted oxygen in vast quantities. I have 3 deodorizers working over time, but I feel like I might need an army of them (10+?) to get a handle on the problem. And that's only for what's in the air. I am unsure of what to do about the emitters. I understand you can put your slime storage container in a small pool of water and that will stop the slime from emitting. Should I do this? I hate these kinds of gimmicky solutions, because I don't think the designed intended for this to work this way. At the same time, water locks are very cool, so...I'm back and forth on it. The pools of water are too shallow to pump and too deep to mop up. I've walled some off, but I'm not sure I can do that with all of them.

I have a vast open cavern that I was going to use for mushrooms, but the enormous amount of polluted oxygen (and accompanying slimelung!) is beyond my experience. I'm still used to micromanaging small construction jobs. This seems like a HUGE environmental clean up job and I don't even know where to start.

I'm on cycle 47 with 10 dupes, everyone happy.

[Lorini]

Sorry can’t help, I don’t play with germs. Hope you can fix it!

[GreenGoo]

Yep, no sweat.

If I find one more guide about early game swamp biome management that involves exosuits, I'm gonna...be unhappy I guess.

[Lorini]

Yeah some people are pretty clueless about how new players play. There were people suggesting edits to my Easy Peasy guide and I rejected them. Just take it easy and go slow.

[GreenGoo]

Yeah some people are pretty clueless about how new players play. There were people suggesting edits to my Easy Peasy guide and I rejected them. Just take it easy and go slow.

One of the reasons jahws guide is good for new players is that it mostly takes into account what tech you should have at each stage, how many dupes you might have, how much room you have before reaching the end of the starting biome, things like that. An awful lot of "guides" are sandbox solutions or max tech solutions. Don't get me wrong, those are great for when you want to hone your own designs, but the stage I'm at, it's a large (16x16? Maybe bigger) open cavern with a ton of exposed slime and a couple of pools of polluted water, both of which are pumping out the polluted oxygen like crazy, which is a breeding ground for slimelung, so the entire cavern shows up as green when you look at germs. I did try to mine out the slime but that's why I have a ton of slime lying around on the ground in there too.

I'll figure something out.