Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

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Sepiche
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Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Sepiche »

Picked this up on a whim on Friday of last week, and after almost putting it down due to the learning cliff you're first presented with, I stuck with it and ended up playing it darn near all weekend, and taking Monday off work after staying up too late to play it Sunday night. :oops:

On the surface Stationeers is a base building/survival game like a lot of others, but what makes Stationeers shine to me is the extreme detail that's been put into the building portions. You aren't just slapping an "airlock" building on a room you slapped together to make a safe habitat... you're setting up the display console, and wiring the airlock up to your power grid, building the pipes to vent the air, making sure the interior space is properly up to pressure and setting up the airlock computer. It sounds like a lot of details, and it is, but it allows for an amazing amount of customization of design, not to mention the warm glow you feel after finally getting something setup and working.

Enlarge Image

When you start a new game, you start alone, in the red glow of survival flares, on one of a few starting stellar bodies, right now including Mars, the Moon, and asteroids, each with their own difficulties and quirks. You also start with a number of crates carrying various tools you'll need to get a base started as well as enough survival rations to last for a few weeks of game time.

To help illustrate how well a lot of the game is modeled, I have one story from just the other night of my almost pulling a Mark Watney. I have my basic base built, and I've painstakingly got the temperature and oxygen levels up to being breathable, but last night after leaving the base through the airlock like I'd done a few dozen times before I suddenly noticed a lot of air pouring out of the top of my base.

"That's weird" I thought, "It's almost like there's a hole in the roof of my base!". I went back in, and sure enough, two sheets of metal that made up the ceiling near the door had ripped off and let all the atmosphere vent outside. I had a save from right before I left the building, so I went back, pulled out my portable touchscreen, loaded up the atmosphere scanner program, and cycled the airlock to see what happened.

Sure enough, a few seconds after the airlock finished cycling, the pressure spiked to 1.5x Earth standard which was too much for my simple iron walls, and the two panels near the door popped off. After some more investigation and trial and error, I realized each time the airlock cycled it was letting in a tiny amount of martian air, this constantly increased air pressure and, in addition to the internal air constantly heating up, caused the pressure to spike to the point that it ruptured. I spent a little bit working on a currently manual system to vent extra gases when I needed to bring down the pressure, and I'm working now on the infrastructure for an automated environmental system that will monitor air quality, pressure, and temperature, and turn on and off subsystems automatically to keep things equalized.

A random selection of a few of the more impressive features:
- (as I mentioned above) To make a breathable atmosphere in a base you need to consider the air temperature (taking into account that gases will expand and increase pressure as they heat up), pressure, and the type of gases present.
- By default solar arrays won't automatically track the sun... you can adjust their angle manually with a wrench, but the ultimate step is building either a series of sensors and logic controllers to match their angle to the sun, or program an integrated circuit to read in the sun angle settings and tell all the solar panels how to align.
- I mentioned integrated circuits... from in the game you can build a computer with an editor motherboard that will let you plug in IC modules and program them to do advanced calculations from an in game code editor
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- Day/night cycles including temperature changes from noon to midnight
- The furnace in the game requires different temperatures and gas mixes to smelt different advanced materials. For basic alloys like steel you can make due by adding frozen oxides and volatiles, but for the more advanced ones you'll need to build a system of storing various gases and mixing them to feed to the furnace
Enlarge Image
- Air pressure is a big issue to deal with, both in habitable areas, and in all your piping as pipes that have too much pressure will rupture
- IIRC the lead designer on this was previously the H1Z1 designer

As a footnote: this game is definitely not for everyone. It is insanely detailed, and there is the constant pressure of trying to survive as you are building your base in a hostile environment, and if you lose focus for just a bit, bad things can happen. That said, you can also turn down or off food consumption which goes a long way to making the pace of the game more sedate. If you've played a lot of Minecraft or Factorio, think Skyfactory is a breeze, and love researching and learning little subsystems, this game could be for you.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by jztemple2 »

I've had this on my wishlist for a while. It certainly sounds great and I'm glad someone has actually gotten it and is enjoying the experience. I'm waiting for release from Early Access.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by gameoverman »

Does it handle poop realistically? Do you have to build your own toilet/waste management systems? Cause that would be some next level shiat in a survival game.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Sepiche »

jztemple2 wrote: Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:33 pm I've had this on my wishlist for a while. It certainly sounds great and I'm glad someone has actually gotten it and is enjoying the experience. I'm waiting for release from Early Access.
Yeah, plenty of reasons to let it bake a little more. With some perseverance it's not bad, but they are still doing basic tuning of the gravity and movement systems among others that can make it frustrating at times. That and it's a game with embedded programming as a major part of it which ups the complexity dramatically.
gameoverman wrote: Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:52 pm Does it handle poop realistically? Do you have to build your own toilet/waste management systems? Cause that would be some next level shiat in a survival game.
Ha! That's one of the few things they don't have modeled actually. :P
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by gameoverman »

I thought about it(poop management) because your description of the game reminds me of The Martian. I think it would be consistent with the survival theme to want to recycle everything, even your waste.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Sepiche »

gameoverman wrote: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:01 pm I thought about it(poop management) because your description of the game reminds me of The Martian. I think it would be consistent with the survival theme to want to recycle everything, even your waste.
Yeah, playing on Mars at least it feels very martian-y. With the exception that mine didn't explosively decompress, the incident where my base over-pressurized was straight out of the movie.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Sepiche »

New hard lesson learned: Pressure Regulators stop releasing pressure when the pressure on the OUTSIDE hits the target number, not the INSIDE.

Would have saved a lot of O2 if my reading comprehension were better. :P

My other problem is I can't figure out why my habitat keeps heating up... it's up to 50 degrees C which is hotter than the outside at noon. Something must be releasing heat inside, but I can't figure out what, and my single cooler doesn't seem to be helping.
Last edited by Sepiche on Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Paingod »

Try painting the outside white.

/honestly no clue. I don't play, and know nothing.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by jztemple2 »

Sepiche wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:38 pm My other problem is I can't figure out why my habitat keeps heating up... it's up to 50 degrees C which it hotter than the outside at noon. Something must be releasing heat inside, but I can't figure out what, and my single cooler doesn't seem to be helping.
I don't have the game, but in real world engineering thinking (or at least retired real world engineering :wink:) your structure is probably well insulated, so there is little heat transfer. So anything on the inside (including you) that is generating heat, adds to the total interior heat. Think of yourself outside on a very hot day, sitting in the shade. Your body is trying to kept you at your normal temperature, but since your body is constantly producing heat and the ambient temperature is above body temperature, your body produces sweat to try through evaporation to regulate the body's temperature.

And everything around you that is using energy is producing heat... lights, fans, computers, even those little potatoes growing in the dirt produce some heat.

Also, even if you have a cooler, how is it releasing the heat to the atmosphere, assuming you are somewhere where there is an atmosphere? The less outside atmospheric pressure, the more you have to rely on radiant cooling rather than convective or conductive cooling. Maybe you don't have the necessary capacity to radiate away that heat...
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Sepiche »

jztemple2 wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:12 pm And everything around you that is using energy is producing heat... lights, fans, computers, even those little potatoes growing in the dirt produce some heat.

Also, even if you have a cooler, how is it releasing the heat to the atmosphere, assuming you are somewhere where there is an atmosphere? The less outside atmospheric pressure, the more you have to rely on radiant cooling rather than convective or conductive cooling. Maybe you don't have the necessary capacity to radiate away that heat...
I asked on the game forums and it sounds like the culprit is the windows I have all over my habitat... sunlight is coming in and causing a rise in temperature that my wall unit can't handle.

I *think* the wall cooler works by pulling interior air (mostly O2 at around 1 atmosphere) and just cooling it by a few degrees and vents the excess heat outside automagically. It sounds like that's just not enough to keep up with all the windows I built.

I think you might be right though, it would cost me a lot of power from the look of it to build enough wall units to counteract the sunlight, but I'm wondering if it would be more efficient to add a vent that moves air from the interior outside, use radiator pipes to radiant excess heat, and then return the cooler air inside. Not sure how efficient that would be, but I think it's worth a shot.

Interior is around 1 atmosphere, outside is about .02 atmospheres.

Edit: Sounds like I also have my wall cooler hooked up wrong. I thought it pulled air in through a connected pipe and cools it, but sounds like it pulls in only heat from it's face, and passes that heat off into the connected pipes. As you said I'll then need to feed that heated air outside to radiators to cool it down. I can't just vent it because then there wouldn't be enough pressure to absorb the heat the wall cooler is passing in.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Sepiche »

Just saw a great post on Steam (I know, it surprised me too!) that I think encapsulates part of what makes this game fun:
Bunyan wrote: This game is all about systems (as said from Hall himself).

It's about gathering resources to build various systems (air handling, food growth, heating/cooling, power sources), troubleshoot those systems, balance them, and make them do more and make them work better (move from manual to automated, better/more specific sensors, etc.).

I'd say this is a great learning tool. I can't remember referencing so much science stuff I learned back in the day. This is a game that DEMANDS reading and research both for what happens in real life and how the game handles things.

If you like problem solving and find joy in putting things together and figuring things out in order to make something run...then I'd say you'd enjoy it. There are a ton of "first joys" with this game (first time to make a working power system, grow food, working airlock, etc.), but there are also a ton of progressive joys as well.... like when you've automated that solar farm, made your base bigger than a somewhat temporary house, etc. There is also a ton of 2nd-chance learning that happens...each time you make a new base, you'll do a lot differently but keep some things you figured out work really well or things that you just like.

I hope that helps! I've thoroughly loved the game itself but have also REALLY appreciated how involved and active the devs have been--I've never played a game with a more responsive group. I have a good chunk of hours in this game and still love it. HIGHLY recommended.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Lorini »

How is it different from Oxygen Not Included?
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

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Lorini wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:56 pm How is it different from Oxygen Not Included?
I was thinking the other day there are actually a lot of similarities to the elements in both games that are modeled, mostly heat and air management.

Beyond that, I'd say Stationeers is to Minecraft as Oxygen Not Included is to Dwarf Fortress.

Stationeers is first/third person and has the Minecraft style game loop of: mine resource, build or improve things from resources, repeat. It's also ridiculously complex and lots of elements (including the UI) are unintuitive. That's not to say they are poorly done... both the UI and the game are extremely well thought out, but they were designed for complexity and realism with intuitiveness a distant third.

I don't have a perfect bead on your taste in games, but if I had to guess I think you might be put off by the initial learning cliff and obtuseness of the mechanics and UI. Once it all clicks, it's a pretty cool system, but it's very different.

To me, the reward of actually finishing a project is a big payoff, but it can be very frustrating at times when things aren't working and it's not clear why (see my temperature problem above).

Hope that gives some guidance!
Last edited by Sepiche on Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by jztemple2 »

Sepiche wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:08 pm Beyond that, I'd say Stationeers is to Minecraft as ONI is to Dwarf Fortress.
I have to confess that I have no idea what ONI is. I googled it but I keep coming up with some supernatural being, which I'm not sure how it relates to Dwarf Fortress.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Isgrimnur »

Lorini wrote: Oxygen Not Included?
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Sepiche »

Success!

The real problem was just my wall cooler not working properly. I connected it to a pipe I ran outside, connected some radiators to the pipe, then pumped the pipe full of 50M Pascals of Martian air and now it's pulling the heat right out. Dropped by about 30 degrees in a day. If I wanted to be more efficient I could refill the pipe with water, but I don't have my water capture system setup yet.

Enlarge Image

Here's my solar farm (& gas storage in the background):
Enlarge Image

Fabricator and the computer attached to it:
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Base interior:
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jztemple2 wrote: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:48 pm I have to confess that I have no idea what ONI is. I googled it but I keep coming up with some supernatural being, which I'm not sure how it relates to Dwarf Fortress.
Sorry, used shorthand. :P
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Sepiche »

Aaaaand... I accidentally left my cooling system on when I went outside to re-work my gas collection system and when I came back in it was -14 C.

Womp womp.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Unagi »

OK, I'm on board, got it last night and died because I failed to grasp it wasn't paused.
So far, I think I am going to like it.
Have you found any one source of information to be of the most value? The wiki is still really light.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Lorini »

Apparently there's no way to pause the game??? If so I'm definitely out.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

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Lorini wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:52 am Apparently there's no way to pause the game??? If so I'm definitely out.
Ah, yeah, I'll add that to the OP since that's an important fact. It's definitely playable solo, but it's MP at it's core and even playing solo you're playing on a local server that it spins up.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

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Unagi wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:37 am OK, I'm on board, got it last night and died because I failed to grasp it wasn't paused.
So far, I think I am going to like it.
Have you found any one source of information to be of the most value? The wiki is still really light.
The wiki has the basics of how things function at least, and some of the guides there are good at pointing you in the right direction. I've also had good luck asking questions on the Steam forum and getting answers. Sounds like the discord channel they have setup is another good place to ask question although I haven't tried it myself. There are also some Youtube videos out there that probably do the best job of stepping you through different systems and seeing how they are setup. Lastly feel free to ask here. I haven't got everything figured out by any stretch, but I've got a good understanding of the basic subsystems.

One caveat though is that some of those guides are a bit dated and sometimes they will step you through doing something that can be automated in a different way in the game now. For instance I think I saw one guide out there that stepped you through a detailed process for setting up an automated airlock, but that guide was written before they added the Airlock console circuit board that handles a lot of the Airlock logic automatically.

A few tips that I wish I had known when I started:
- 'J' turns on your jetpack. Be careful as you can break your neck if you run into things too fast, but it is a great way to get around when searching for ore, and the canister of N2 in your backpack that powers it lasts a LOOOOONG time as long as you keep the jetpack off when you don't need it. I was on my 3rd base about 10 hours into the game before I realized I had a jetpack. :oops:

- Holding down LAlt will turn on your cursor and you can use it to drag items into and out of packs, off the ground, etc.

- When placing items the game will tell you to use del, insert, etc. to rotate them. Don't! They now have an intelligent autorotate button that will try to rotate where you want the item. Hit C and it will cycle through the possible placements.

- To take the pressure off as you are learning the game, you can turn your food consumption down to zero in the settings to keep you from needing food. It's difficult enough to learn the game when you don't have the threat of starving to death looming over you if you fail to get food production setup in time

- Don't be too afraid of dying. If you do your body and gear will drop in place, and you'll respawn at the starting point with a completely reset starting kit. If you want to game the system a bit, this can be beneficial as if you die near your base you'll be able to recover things off you body like the large battery you spawn with, and you'll have a new large battery that respawned with you. Large batteries are handy to have and hard to make initially.

- You can also increase the length of a day in the settings. I thought the day/night cycles were too short by default, so I maxed that out once I found the setting.

- Make sure to turn off tools that need turning on before you put them away. The welder and touchpad among others will drain your batteries/gas tank if they are put away when on

- The first thing you will probably run out of is CO2 filters for your suit. They can be made for a little iron in a pipe bender machine

- The second thing you will likely run out of is O2 for your suit (although not for an in game week or two, so you have lots of time). You do start with a tank full of O2 though, so all you need to do initially is setup a pipe system to pull in air from the tank (by putting it on a tank connector) and push it into a gas tank fitted to a gas tank storage unit.

- Pipes can hold 60M Pascals (standard air pressure is 100K Pascals), standard cables can carry 5 kilowatts, heavy cables can carry 100 kilowatts.

- I think the best project to spend time on early on is getting an automated system setup to have your solar panels track the sun. Until you get that setup you will either be power poor as the solar panels produce a lot less power if they aren't facing the sun directly, or you'll be tied to your base constantly adjusting the panels.
This is a simple guide to setting up automated panels: Link
This is a *slightly* more complicated setup, but will produce more power as it tracks the sun better: Link

- Note that when you are placing an item, using the mouse wheel will cycle through different configurations and sometimes completely different items. For instance, to build a filtration unit you actually need a Atmospherics kit which defaults to an air conditioner, but using the mouse wheel you can switch it to the filtration unit.

- Another early project is building a furnace and using it to smelt steel. The furnace is not too complicated, but it is completely unintuitive at first. This guide covers it well enough: Link

- Don't forget the duct tape. Hold it in your hand and left click to repair any breaches in your suit. Keep it in your tool belt and practice getting it quickly.

- The basic building block is the frame. Initially there is the iron frame, and later the steel frame that is just more durable (and nicer looking). You upgrade them by using a welding torch in one hand and an iron sheet in the other. They have 3 build stages:
- The initial frame which you can walk around in and place pipes and wires
- First sheet placed which lets you place items on the wall and build pipes & wires, but while you can't walk through it, you can walk on it which makes it good for anything you don't need to be airtight
- Second sheet placed where it is complete and only allows placing of wall items, but will hold in air

- The other basic building block is the wall. They can be placed on their own and are airtight, but they can also be placed over a complete frame to give it a finished look


I'll add to this as I think of more.
Last edited by Sepiche on Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:09 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Unagi »

Unagi wrote: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:37 am The wiki is still really light.
Actually, I've now found the wiki - not sure what I was looking at before.

and THANK YOU for all of that.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

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Spent time with Bard's Tale and Star Control this weekend, but also managed to get a bit more done in my Stationeers game.

After learning some lessons about gas flow and filtration, I redesigned my air filtration system to be a bit more organized, and then added water filtering to it as well. The filtration re-design was also so I could setup a proper gas mixing and feed system for my furnace and rout all of it's output gasses through my filtering system to re-capture them. This also had the bonus of, along with my water filter, allowing me to melt ice in my furnace and capture the water coming back out.

After that project I decided I needed to move my fabricator inside along with a few other things, and rather than move them, I just expanded the air tight area of my base to include the fabricator and my filtration system (except for the storage tanks which I left outside to decrease in pressure in the cool martian air). That took a bit and involved adding a couple more airlocks to my base, but once it was done it gave me over twice the internal area, and let me do inside projects without constantly going outside to fabricate parts.

At this point I was starting to get pretty low on power toward the end of the nights, so I expanded my solar farm to 10 panels giving me an output of about 4MW during the day.

Lastly, I used my new gas fed furnace to make the most difficult of alloys: invar. It's a mix of equal parts iron and nickel, but the trick is it has a narrow range of temperature and pressure, so I had to play around with different input air pressures and hydrogen/oxygen mixes to get it just right. I think I ended up with 400 kPa of 60% oxygen/40% hydrogen. It was a little over-pressure at first, but that dropped quickly and it hit the sweet spot long enough for me to make some alloys.

I'll probably work on a few other alloys I need like electrum next which will let me build and edit integrated circuits. Once I have those I'll probably play around with programming one to act as the controller for my life support systems.

Here's a shot of my base post filtration re-design, but before I got the furnace installed, and before I completed the interior expansion:
Enlarge Image
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Sepiche »

(Almost) Assembler in Space!
Enlarge Image

Took me a little bit to figure out the logic and how to setup the code to do the checks I wanted, but I've got this integrated circuit (IC) turning the lights on and off with the sun, and turning the heaters and coolers on based on the current temperature. Should also be able to turn on and off the outside air intake if the pressure gets too low since I can get that from the gas sensor I'm already connecting to.

You're limited to 128 lines of code per IC and 6 devices you can connect to from each IC (either setting or getting data). So you couldn't have a single controller for everything, but you should be able to use a handful of IC to replace a metric ton of simpler logic circuits.

Only real thing that threw me off for a bit was that you can't write directly from an IC to a batch writer that can update all the items of a type. You have to write to a memory module first and the batch writer can read that. That and you can only compare values to zero or each other which means you have to do some odd adjustments and line jumping to do the equivalent of basic if statements.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Isgrimnur »

:shock:
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Sepiche »

New update recently added an integrated circuit slot to the hard suit you can make eventually that allows for automated control of it's systems, so I wrote a new program to open my helmet and turn off all my life support gear if the outside temperature and pressure are within safe parameters.

Also found a cool site that has some excellent tools for writing, debugging, and sharing IC code:
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by jztemple2 »

Since I have this game on my wishlist I've been seeing periodic updates, like the one today. Surprised there haven't been any posts for two and a half years. Anyone still playing this?
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

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jztemple2 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:12 pm Since I have this game on my wishlist I've been seeing periodic updates, like the one today. Surprised there haven't been any posts for two and a half years. Anyone still playing this?
The steam page really tries to get across how not casual this game is. The depth and complexity of Sepiche's posts on it is enough to scare me away.
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Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by Paingod »

coopasonic wrote: Wed Mar 17, 2021 7:50 am
jztemple2 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:12 pm Since I have this game on my wishlist I've been seeing periodic updates, like the one today. Surprised there haven't been any posts for two and a half years. Anyone still playing this?
The steam page really tries to get across how not casual this game is. The depth and complexity of Sepiche's posts on it is enough to scare me away.
What's not to like about manually wiring up a computer into a habitat you built manually out of parts to manually pressed down into pliable materials after manually making the tools to do it while manually pumping air into your suit that you had to assemble manually from parts you found in a crate?

It still sounds fascinating, but also like I don't have enough time in the evenings to really embed myself in it enough to enjoy it. It sounds very much like a "Give it a 4 hour block, minimum" kind of game.
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2021-01-20: The first good night's sleep I had in 4 years.
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raydude
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Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 9:22 am

Re: Stationeers: Hardcore 1st Person Building/Survival

Post by raydude »

Yeah, no thanks. Looking at that makes me glad I'm part of a team so I don't have to do everything myself.
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