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Magic Arena OO talk

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Paingod
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Paingod » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:24 pm

Stuie wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:17 pm
60 cards is the minimum for constructed. 40 for limited (draft and sealed).
Which explains my ignorance. I've never done draft or sealed.
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:33 pm

I could have sworn the default decks are 40 cards. Obviously I could be wrong.

edit: Missed the 60 constructed vs 40 other deck types comment.
Last edited by GreenGoo on Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Pyperkub » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:52 pm

Stuie wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:17 pm
60 cards is the minimum for constructed. 40 for limited (draft and sealed).
Ah, I can't recall if it was that way when I went to a couple of tourney's roughly 25 years ago.
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Redfive » Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:55 pm

What Stuie said has always been the case.

You can go above 60 if you want but don't expect to be competitive (which is not the same as having fun, of course).
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Paingod » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:54 pm

I present the BS infinite damage combo:

1 Famished Paladin - Uncommon - 3/3 White Vampire Knight Does not untap during untap phase. When you gain life, untap.
1 Sorcerer's Wand - Uncommon - Equip: Tap this creature to do 1 damage to player or planeswalker
1 Common "Creature Gains Lifetap" Enchantment (like Squire's Devotion)

What you get is a creature that taps to do 1 damage, healing you, then untaps, taps to do 1 damage, healing you, then untaps...

The only defense is seeing it coming and Destroying the Knight or Wand somehow before the Enchantment gets laid down.

I was merrily at 25 health - and my opponent was at 14. He said "Good Game" - then enchanted his Knight. Boom. I was dead. One point at a time. No saving throw. No untap phase. No blocking. Just 1 point over and over and over until I was dead.
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Redfive » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:10 pm

Haven't heard of that before just now but I went and found a youtube video.

Wow, surprised they are letting something like that continue without banning one of the cards.
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:18 pm

Redfive wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:10 pm
Haven't heard of that before just now but I went and found a youtube video.

Wow, surprised they are letting something like that continue without banning one of the cards.
I'm starting to hear tell of a couple of others as I start sniffing around the MTG discussions, although I don't have details.

These sorts of things have always been a problem with the game, simply because no one can foresee all the card interactions ahead of time, but with a billion players all striving to exploit any loophole they can to gain an advantage, they do come out, eventually. In the past Wot(W in my day)C have taken steps to reduce the cheese as much as possible. I can't speak to the current exploits (and I do consider infinite loops like this an exploit, but I put the blame on the game, not the player), but I also wonder about the whys and wherefores of the current crop.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by LordMortis » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:03 am

Goblin direct damage red kicks a merfolks ass.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:12 pm

RDW.

Red deck wins.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:45 pm

PlayRavnica and GameAwards codes were both successfully redeemed. The PlayR code gave me some packs to open. I have no idea what the Game code did. How do I find out?

edit: Sorry, found it. Adds these cards to your collection:

1 cleansing nova
1 ghalta, primal hunger
1 risk factor
1 search for azcanta
1 vraska's contempt
4 conclave tribunal
4 eldest reborn
4 lava coil
4 merfolk branchwalker
4 sinister sabotage

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:09 pm

Just pulled a win out of my ass with the starter white deck despite repeatedly losing critters to the poisoned archer because I failed to understand what it did. Repeatedly. It was a green/black deck with lots of saprolings and (the potential) for black zombies and I'm sure he became over confident because I kept making mistakes. He would have won on the next turn except his archer was killing us both and he over committed all his tokens to his previous attack. I played bonds on his archer (finally, damn it) and attacked with 2 stags and a flying critter. The stags tapped his last 2 defenders and I did 10 damage to his 9 hp while only having 3 hp of my own. I very nearly said good game on his previous turn, although I was playing it out regardless, I had no intention of conceding. It was only 1 turn until I died in any case.

I bet that dude is kicking himself. I won through luck and 1 good play, after 3 turns of bad plays where his archer each turn killed a much more expensive critter of mine.

I'm somewhat gloaty, even though I know it wasn't me that won it. :D

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:28 pm

Green/black saproling deck vaporized my red/black reward deck. Not even close.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Sat Dec 15, 2018 5:32 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:33 pm
I could have sworn the default decks are 40 cards. Obviously I could be wrong.

edit: Missed the 60 constructed vs 40 other deck types comment.
Starter decks are 60 cards, typically with 25 lands, so it appears to me.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Fretmute » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:46 am

Paingod wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:54 pm
I present the BS infinite damage combo: . . .
I'd say that's an egregious oversight by the combination of designers / playtesters, but these days my suspicion is that it's a money play with all of the cards involved being rare. I blame the GOP.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Zarathud » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:55 am

Magic has hundreds of win-the-game combos. They nearly always have a counter even if your deck doesn't have it. You need to recognize the trap. Then hopefully you have the counter planned in your deck, or get your own combo out faster.
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by LordMortis » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:59 pm

Zarathud wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:55 am
Magic has hundreds of win-the-game combos. They nearly always have a counter even if your deck doesn't have it. You need to recognize the trap. Then hopefully you have the counter planned in your deck, or get your own combo out faster.
Yeah, it's a three card combo where two them need to be that exact card and it's very stoppable as there is almost no other reason to have the lynch pin creature. It doesn't bother me, really. White will capture, Black will destroy, red or green will speed it to death, blue counterspell it.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:06 pm

Does it though?

Hundreds?

Even if that were the case, taking control away from a player to repeatedly play the same combination over and over again as many times as required irrespective of how many hp he has is somewhat flagrant in its incredible unfairness.

The lack of sideboards and Bo1 format make counters basically impossible without hamstringing your deck. If there are "hundreds" of these like you say, then even if you could counter 50 different versions, you'd still be vulnerable to hundreds more. There's a difference between decks designed to do things to win and decks that guarantee a win if you draw 3 cards from it.

Why not have a card combination that simply removes the various turn stages from one player? You could literally have a card combo that ends with "the other player no longer has any phases per turn" and it would be fairer because the combo player would still have to figure out a way to kill the other player through card draws/critters/direct damage/whatever.

The combo paingod outlines does both, removing a player's ability to do anything while killing him with an infinite combo and you seem to be responding with "git gud". I can't agree with that view.

You are 100% correct. Magic has always had broken card combos such as this, and those are the reason various cards are banned from competitive play, and why some cards have been changed from their original versions. WotC has shown that not all card combinations are acceptable and the player base has also taken exception at times.

Maybe this is one of those times. Or maybe it is just a matter of "git gud". If the latter, then I'll keep my money and the billions of fans will shrink by one. Both the game and I will survive. That's life.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Paingod » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:32 pm

Ran into another "Instant Win" combo, but holy shit, it's elaborate. I can't even explain it all.

It hinged on multiple cards - but the primary is Nexus of Fate: take another turn, shuffle this back into your library. By turn 8 on my side, he had three Planeswalkers out, 15 lands, had unsummoned all my creatures, and wasn't even done taking his turnturnturnturnturnturnturnturnturn. Infinite complete turns. I tapped out and quit with 10 life. He had cycled or fielded all but 12 of his cards, and I still had 52 in my deck with 3 in my hand.

He was using 2 Legendary lands that let him draw cards. He had Draw Card abilities on his Planeswalkers, and ... well ... he never stopped drawing cards.

I'm not sure what the counter is. He unsummoned my only means of attacking his first Planeswalker, and once he started he never stopped.

Huge combo, perfectly played.

*Edit: And... WTF. The very next round was the exact same deck. On this time he tossed out an Amulet that let him draw land out of his deck each turn, reducing the odds of land as his next normal draw. I didn't even wait for the combo to get warmed up once I saw what was happening.
Last edited by Paingod on Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:44 pm

RDW.

Should get you a positive win ratio and those decks won't make it to 8 turns.

I'm not sure what the current meta is on red decks, but it wouldn't take long to find out.

edit: google search term: magic arena rdw

RDW article

Haven't read it myself, but it looks promising. Personally I hate the idea of everyone playing the same deck (or close enough) but the arguments for doing so are compelling. The cards earned per minute of play is one of them. RDW games are short games, whatever the outcome. If you're grinding away (and the game is absolutely a grind. It's designed to be) then more games per minute = more cards per minute (assuming you're winning often enough).

edit2: If I decide to keep playing the game I'll probably take the RDW path.

a) There is so much depth in MtG that it is a huge time sink trying to get a grip on all the cards, decks, and deck designs. That's a lot of fun for lots of people, but I'm not interested in putting that many brain cycles into the game.

b) Winning is how you get more cards. The W in RDW is wins.

c) Someone has already done all the heavy lifting regarding deck composition. The article I posted even offers strategies and alternatives while building towards the completed deck. Why do the leg work if someone has already done it? Particularly if a) applies to you.

d) I like playing MtG, I'm not so big a fan of deck building, in large part because of a). If someone else has a better idea, I'm using it. And lots of people have better ideas.

This is just the first article that came up. I have no idea if his ideas are good ideas, but the article seems well written and the claims he makes seem authentic. There are probably other RDW decks besides the one this article outlines, so if this one doesn't float your boat, you probably have other options.

If you have a particular affinity for a certain color or a certain color combination, I'm sure someone has written an article covering those colors. If not yet, then soon. I like black and I like green. I'm sure there is a competitive green/black beginner's deck out there that is "good enough" for a positive win ratio. Chances are it won't be as productive as a mono-red aggro deck, but if it's more fun then I might try it anyway.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Redfive » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:53 pm

Go look up Golgari mid range.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Paingod » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:58 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:44 pm
Personally I hate the idea of everyone playing the same deck...
This right here is why I don't. I'm not specifically looking for wins per minute. I'm just playing. Honestly, I don't even know where to see my win ratio.

... and it ends up not being much fun playing against something that feels like complete cheese. I don't mind losing to someone who outwits me or gets luckier. I don't mind losing to superior decks. I hate losing to decks that flat-out prevent me from playing. Chaining turn after turn after turn and using a three-card combo to do infinite damage are so far the two things that actually piss me off, and I've only run into them three times.

I've got a deck I call "DenialStorm" - it's a variant on the Blue/Red Instant/Sorcery deck. Lots of unsummoning permanents and some direct damage with a handful of creatures - blue/red drakes and blue/red goblins. 11 creatures, 24 non-creature, 25 land. It can be hard to kill my creatures, or hard to get your own big things out when I undercut them. I even have two "In Bolas' Clutches" (Enchantment, steal permanent) in there for fun. I see variants of this frequently, but mine isn't like theirs... and often loses to them. :hawk: I see more rare cards in their lineups.

I feel like I win maybe half the time with that one - though never in the competitive events. I've never gotten past Rank 3 in those. Not even in a draft (I did spend $5 on the starter kit, then failed repeatedly to win anything in the Dominara draft).
Last edited by Paingod on Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:06 pm

This isn't the post I originally saw this information, but this one should be relatively close. In this post it's one person's experience with the frequency of specific decks during an event. I believe he posts after each event. I wish I could find the original information where I came across a more detailed analysis, I can't even be sure it was reddit at this point.

anyway:

Frequency of decks in last constructed event for one player

You can use that sort of information to determine which decks are popular, then search on those decks specifically to see what the general consensus is and/or learn how to build it if it's interesting to you. This says nothing about success rates or which decks beat which decks. It's purely statistical, but still useful. The original information I came across was a lot more detailed, but a cursory attempt to find it again came up with nothing.

In this case the results were:

Golgari - 13
Monored - 13
Mono Blue Tempo - 9
White Weenie - 9
Dimir Surveil - 8
BW Lifegain - 7
URB Bolas Control - 5
Jeskai Control - 5
UR Phoenix Drakes - 5
RW Aggro - 4
Boros Angels - 3
GW Tokens - 3
Saprolings - 3
Mono-G - 3
Merfolk - 2
RG Dino Ramp - 1
BWR Control - 1
UGW Control - 1
Mono-Black Aggro - 1
GWB Control - 1
Turbofog - 1
UBG Control - 1
UGW Midrange - 1

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:09 pm

Paingod wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:58 pm
GreenGoo wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:44 pm
Personally I hate the idea of everyone playing the same deck...
This right here is why I don't. I'm not specifically looking for wins per minute. I'm just playing. Honestly, I don't even know where to see my win ratio.
I have no idea if it's a stat that is tracked. It is definitely something that you're going to notice though, because losing rewards you with nothing, and losing has more of an impact on a player than winning. Chances are everyone thinks they lose more often than they do. In any case, if you're trying to succeed, MtG rewards winning. Winning leads to more rewards. More rewards lead to more winning. It's a bit of a snowball, but not obnoxiously so imo. Then again I don't have enough experience yet, and I'm just starting to read.
Paingod wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:58 pm
... and it ends up not being much fun playing against something that feels like complete cheese. I don't mind losing to someone who outwits me or gets luckier. I don't mind losing to superior decks. I hate losing to decks that flat-out prevent me from playing. Chaining turn after turn after turn and using a three-card combo to do infinite damage are so far the two things that actually piss me off, and I've only run into them three times.
I get that. I even subscribed to it once. I vaguely recall having those feelings when i first started playing Total Annihilation, and probably about Flash rushing. The problem with that is that the game and the community (assuming it has reached a certain critical mass) doesn't care about what you find fun or not. MtG is a competitive game, and while yes, you can play it casually (I'm sure I could play the starter decks all day every day and have a decent time assuming there are enough newbs out there to get matched up with, the meta is what it is. To be competitive you either have to join the meta or be good enough that you can defeat the meta, at which point how you defeated the meta becomes the new meta.

It is my opinion that you are setting yourself up to be disappointed if you use the in game matchmaking rather than direct challenges with friends. The community will follow the meta leaders and you'll see more and more of the current meta and it will crush the decks that you think are fun. As fun as those decks might be, getting crushed repeatedly is not much fun for anyone, especially if you never get a turn after the 2nd one.

So on the one hand, I like playing "fun" decks too. In fact I prefer it. But the community doesn't care about what is fun for the most part. It cares about winning. You can play casually and accept that you're never going to be competitive (note: this does not mean never winning, just more losing than winning) and keep playing anyway. If you want to play casually, using your own deck designs and expect to win, well, surprise, there are a billion players and they are all working as hard as they can to get an edge over each other. That sort of cutthroat play is not kind to casual players. When their meta decks are so honed that they are balanced on a knife's edge against other powerful, competitive meta decks, there is little hope for casual deck play.

Ok, probably all stuff you already know. I just thought it useful to write it out and remind you. Trying to play starcraft competitively but never zerg rushing or expecting your opponent never to zerg rush is setting yourself up for disappointment. At best, it means you're never going to be top tier. At worst, you'll lose games in the first 5 minutes and be frustrated that no one let you turtle for 15 minutes first.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Redfive » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:21 pm

You can still complete many dailies without actually winning, so technically, it is possible to be rewarded when you lose.

But I know the point you were making.
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:24 pm

Redfive wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:21 pm
You can still complete many dailies without actually winning, so technically, it is possible to be rewarded when you lose.

But I know the point you were making.
Yeah, that's a good point, although the decent rewards start running dry (or so I read. There are only so many starter decks to unlock, for example) and then the grind becomes even worse. Still, you don't have to win to make progress. Whether that progress is enough to be satisfying or not is in the eye of the player.

I appreciate the correction.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:35 pm

For the record I want to play exactly like Paingod does. I just don't think it's a realistic expectation.

MtG is too diverse with too many fun cards to be boiled down to just a few (even if there are 20. 50. 100) meta decks that everyone plays. But trying to balance an RTS with 3 sides is hard enough. Trying to balance a game with thousands of cards is almost impossible. Some strategies are going to rise to the top, and then everyone will either play those strategies, or play strategies specifically designed to defeat them.

It's a shame.

Red should remind me here that draft play is a thing, and it is, and I need to explore it more. I think that's where I'll find my fun if I don't go full blown "copy the meta of the best players" route. Or just stop playing, because it is a time sink of epic proportions if I want to win. And that's without touching on putting real money into the game.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Redfive » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:53 pm

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:18 am

I think MtG creates a text log of the games you play, and that tool uses the log to compile data, yours and everyone else's. I think.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Paingod » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:46 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:35 pm
For the record I want to play exactly like Paingod does. I just don't think it's a realistic expectation.
I slapped my own solid red deck together and just beat one of the Dimir Surveil decks that seem to whoop me so easily.

A few of my biggest dinosaurs, a couple "search for dinosaur" handlers, several Goblin Guttersnipes, and two artifacts - my "The Immortal Sun" (draw +1, creatures +1, planeswalkers are useless) and my "Helm of the Host" - replicate whatever this is equipped on. really, just a mish-mash of pure damage cards and a small selection of defenders.

I got both artifacts out - which is the only reason I won. The Immortal Sun let me draw enough damage and land to keep up with his discards and creature spawn, and the Helm was going to be fitted on a big Dino - who was smeared, then stolen, so I nuked it - then I brought out another big dino, who was turned into a pile of treasure. So I brought out a smaller dino, who was countered. Finally a Goblin slipped through and started replicating.

After that, every spell I cast hit him for 2, 4, 6 extra.

I guess I don't have many good red cards yet. I've still got a few starter decks to pick up. I also have 2 Mythic, 2 Rare, 6 Uncommon, and 6 Common card wildcards to use.
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:05 am

Yeah, I don't really have enough experience with the game, so I've been reiterating what I've read, so I'll leave it to you guys to explore. Sometimes getting involved in the community of a game is the worst thing you can do to enjoy yourself, and that might be the case here.

I do have over a thousand cards in the basement, so it's not like the game is completely new to me, but I don't have any experience with the modern game as it is today.

I hope it's fun for everyone.

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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Paingod » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:11 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:05 am
I hope it's fun for everyone.
It may sound like I'm bitching, but only about some aspects I maybe hadn't remembered or hadn't properly prepared myself for, mentally. I don't play against random people much in any games anymore. Overall, I'm really enjoying the ability to get out and play a game I loved 25 years ago without spending much of anything on it.

I suppose, it could be said, that I'm having fun when I'm blocking and stomping an enemy left and right - so I shouldn't feel too bad when it happens to me. It's not like I've run into a hundred people wielding these "infinite" decks... and you're right - a little direct damage or something that Destroys cards would go a long way. To a pure Green Creature deck, they're death.

My favorite games to date have been tense stalemates. When I or an opponent is at one health and it'll just take one more spell.

I am thankful for the digital environment for these games when it comes to wildly complicated maneuvers and "every turn you X" cards. When I got back into Magic a few years ago to test it with one of the kids, I was surprised at how needlessly complicated it became. No casual player I knew wanted to deal with that.
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LordMortis
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by LordMortis » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:20 am

Paingod wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:32 pm
Ran into another "Instant Win" combo, but holy shit, it's elaborate. I can't even explain it all.

It hinged on multiple cards - but the primary is Nexus of Fate: take another turn, shuffle this back into your library. By turn 8 on my side, he had three Planeswalkers out, 15 lands, had unsummoned all my creatures, and wasn't even done taking his turnturnturnturnturnturnturnturnturn. Infinite complete turns. I tapped out and quit with 10 life. He had cycled or fielded all but 12 of his cards, and I still had 52 in my deck with 3 in my hand.

He was using 2 Legendary lands that let him draw cards. He had Draw Card abilities on his Planeswalkers, and ... well ... he never stopped drawing cards.

I'm not sure what the counter is. He unsummoned my only means of attacking his first Planeswalker, and once he started he never stopped.

Huge combo, perfectly played.

*Edit: And... WTF. The very next round was the exact same deck. On this time he tossed out an Amulet that let him draw land out of his deck each turn, reducing the odds of land as his next normal draw. I didn't even wait for the combo to get warmed up once I saw what was happening.
I got hit by something like that this weekend and the cards played so quick I ddidn't understand what was happening. It also felt like something I couldn't have prepared for. Take another turn shuffle in to your deck seems like a mechanic begging to be used as broken.
Paingod wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:11 am
GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:05 am
I hope it's fun for everyone.
It may sound like I'm bitching, but only about some aspects I maybe hadn't remembered or hadn't properly prepared myself for, mentally. I don't play against random people much in any games anymore. Overall, I'm really enjoying the ability to get out and play a game I loved 25 years ago without spending much of anything on it.

I suppose, it could be said, that I'm having fun when I'm blocking and stomping an enemy left and right - so I shouldn't feel too bad when it happens to me. It's not like I've run into a hundred people wielding these "infinite" decks... and you're right - a little direct damage or something that Destroys cards would go a long way. To a pure Green Creature deck, they're death.

My favorite games to date have been tense stalemates. When I or an opponent is at one health and it'll just take one more spell.

I am thankful for the digital environment for these games when it comes to wildly complicated maneuvers and "every turn you X" cards. When I got back into Magic a few years ago to test it with one of the kids, I was surprised at how needlessly complicated it became. No casual player I knew wanted to deal with that.
Mostly this. I don't mind losing but I hate playing against someone with all the cards who either 1) plays the I win moment that cannot be reasonably guarded against or 2) has their my turn takes a minute or two (or more) to play every turn, which feels like an eternity when sitting at the computer. I also play games with random internet people with not social aspect.

That said, decks with players that don't take forever or don't feel like "well there's nothing I can do about that" to take a turn don't bother me so much, they inspire me to get better. I will say I don't much care for planeswalkers, of which I have none. I so don't much care for them that I have six cost artifact in nearly every deck that borks them, immortal sun. Not sure where I got it, but it's in about half my decks.
Players can't activate planeswalkers' loyalty abilities. At the beginning of your draw step, draw an additional card. Spells you cast cost less to cast. Creatures you control get +1/+1.

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Paingod
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Paingod » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:56 am

LordMortis wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:20 am
Take another turn shuffle in to your deck seems like a mechanic begging to be used as broken.
Indeed. Anything that allows you to take another turn should have serious limitations. Shuffling it right back into your deck is not a limitation.

After a little digging, some of the cards I think I recall being involved in this deck were:
  • Teferi, Hero of Dominaria: +1: Draw a card. At the beginning of the next end step, untap up to two lands. -3: Put target nonland permanent into its owner's library third from the top. -8: You get an emblem with "Whenever you draw a card, exile target permanent an opponent controls."
  • Ral, Caller of Storms: +1: Draw a card. -2: Ral, Caller of Storms deals 3 damage divided as you choose among one, two, or three targets. -7: Draw seven cards. Ral, Caller of Storms deals 7 damage to each creature your opponents control.
  • Karn, Scion of Urza: +1: Reveal the top two cards of your library. An opponent chooses one of them. Put that card into your hand and exile the other with a silver counter on it. -1: Put a card you own with a silver counter on it from exile into your hand. -2: Create a 0/0 colorless Construct artifact creature token with "This creature gets +1/+1 for each artifact you control."
  • Search for Azcanta: At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top card of your library. You may put it into your graveyard. Then if you have seven or more cards in your graveyard, you may transform Search for Azcanta.
  • Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin (transformed): (2)B, Tap: Look at the top four cards of your library. You may reveal a noncreature, nonland card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.
  • Nexus of Fate: Instant: Take an extra turn after this one. If Nexus of Fate would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, reveal Nexus of Fate and shuffle it into its owner's library instead.
  • Treasure Map: (1), tap : Scry 1. Put a landmark counter on Treasure Map. Then if there are three or more landmark counters on it, remove those counters, transform Treasure Map, and create three colorless Treasure artifact tokens with "Tap, Sacrifice this artifact: Add one mana of any color."
  • Treasure Cove: Add (1). Tap, Sacrifice a Treasure: Draw a card.
  • Arch of Orazca: Ascend (If you control ten or more permanents, you get the city's blessing for the rest of the game.) Add (1). (5) & Tap: Draw a card. Activate this ability only if you have the city's blessing.
  • Resplendent Angel: 3/3 Flying Angel: At the beginning of each end step, if you gained 5 or more life this turn, create a 4/4 white Angel creature token with flying and vigilance. (3)WWW: Until end of turn, Resplendent Angel gets +2/+2 and gains lifelink.
  • Reliquary Tower: You have no maximum hand size. Tap, Add (1)
There was also a lot of Scry and/or Surveil in creatures and spells.
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GreenGoo
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:37 pm

Let me start with I dislike blue. It's not my style, even if I don't know what my style is or what blue is supposed to do well. Control I guess. Doesn't matter, I don't like blue.

The blue starter deck is particularly weak. It's a critter deck of blue and artifacts, with a little (very little) buffing, and some minor (very minor) synergy. Most of the starter decks are critter heavy, but blue is the weakest out of all of them in my opinion.

Sure I got my ass kicked by a white/black (vampires and paladins) deck and a blue/green deck (merfolk) but that's not the problem. The problem is that at no point was I unable to play lands and cards yet I accomplished nothing. The merfolk game was over on the 3rd or 4th turn, not surprising as they were all cheap cards that buffed each other. By the 4th turn he had 4 or 5 merfolk out with the weakest one being 3/3, I think.

Nobody likes to lose, but I'm only slightly annoyed. These decks were dual color decks with lots of synergy. It's just that blue seems particularly weak, even for a starter deck. The white/black deck went a good 8-10 turns before his snowball really got rolling, so that was good enough imo. Not that I could do anything about it, as at no point was I a threat. The merfolk deck put me out of my misery quickly, at least.

I already didn't like blue, and this is not helping.

The reason I was playing blue is because I had 2 dailies for playing blue cards. They were 750g each though, so I didn't want to reroll them.

Losing sucks, but I'm playing the starter decks, so it's to be expected. No problem. Blue sucks AND I don't like it, so I had to do something that I didn't want to do because it's not fun for me. Again, small price to pay for finishing dailies.

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LordMortis
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by LordMortis » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:39 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:37 pm
The problem is that at no point was I unable to play lands and cards yet I accomplished nothing.
I dislike the accomplishing nothing but that's the nature of the game so I get on with it without damaging my fragile self. I just hate how much deliberation tends to go with making me accomplish nothing. Being forced to wait and wait to and wait while you think you are performing rocket surgery to mess with my game makes me feel like I'm wasting my time, not merely losing a game. That's when I become a sore loser (or even sore winner).

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GreenGoo
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:11 pm

The game could definitely use something to do while you wait. Funny how waiting even 10 seconds starts to feel like a waste of time.

Separately, as you play lands, draw cards and summon critters/cast spells, you kind of expect to be progressing. You might not be able to attack with your current creatures, but with another land on the next turn you can summon something that can do something on the turn after. In my complaint that was never the case. I never thought I was one draw away from doing something productive. Everything I did literally had zero chance of accomplishing anything, and I had no illusions that a few more draws would change things. I wasn't locked out, I wasn't being infinite looped to death, I was just wasting my time even as I drew cards and played cards. If I wasn't trying to do dailies where I needed to play a certain number of blue cards, I would have just good gamed him and conceded.

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GreenGoo
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:03 pm

More losses. The best I can hope for with that blue deck is a mirror match, which I had twice. I won 50% of them. The moment I finished my dailies I switched to the starter red deck just to cleanse my palate. 3 wins in a row, at least one vs a more sophisticated deck, which just reinforces my opinion of the starter blue.

Anyway, I won't have to play blue again unless I get another daily, so I've made it to the other side. Not that I've played a lot yet but that blue deck is the first time I felt like I was just going through the motions waiting for it to end. Don't get me wrong, I was doing everything I could to win, but the deck is just incapable of winning, barring a newb and/or facing itself.

Hah.

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Redfive
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by Redfive » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:56 pm

Get Merfolk unlocked and you can start killing noobs.
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LordMortis
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by LordMortis » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:24 pm

Redfive wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:56 pm
Get Merfolk unlocked and you can start killing noobs.
The stock Merfolk deck isn't good. The mefolk murder deck took a ton of wilds, wins, or buying.

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GreenGoo
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Re: Magic Arena OO talk

Post by GreenGoo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:33 pm

Redfive wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:56 pm
Get Merfolk unlocked and you can start killing noobs.
I'm not unhappy I'm losing, I'm unhappy to be using a nerf gun in wwii.

But it's over and I can get busy losing after knocking the guy down to 10 hp etc with literally any other deck in the game.

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