Octopus Overlords

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:31 am**

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:56 am I have all the characters on horde Area-52 in The Wanderers guild, not that it's very active any more. I am hoping to get enough for a casual raiding group but we'll see.

That's one possible location for OO expats then. I presume for Alliance, our ancient guild on Sisters of Elune is another.

If I take a look tonight I'm mulling where to make a new character, even though I imagine this one may be abandoned for a second, serious attempt if/when Mrs. Nym comes on board or there's further renewed interest at full release. As mentioned, all my alts are on Sisters of Elune (Alliance) and Wrymwrest Accord (Horde), but this seems like an ideal time to make a clean break. Especially as we didn't have any max-level characters since MoP.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:35 am**

I'm tempted to come back and see what's new and different, but there are a lot of big games coming that will take my time. Also, I am in an MMO gaming guild with a decent WoW presence (full of old fart gamers like us -- my other online family) so I wouldn't likely join Wanderers anyway.

My 14yo son played WoW with me a bit a couple years ago and he asked about it again recently.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:39 am**

Yeah, I'm in Grievance in almost every MMO I play. Great people. I'd love to play with OO folks, but I don't want to start over yet again. I have my high level Horde characters all consolidated on Thrall. I suppose if there were enough interest I could re-up and try Alliance somewhere (I've never end-gamed with Alliance.) But then again, the last few times I reupped I bounced off of it. I just don't enjoy the endgame rep grind anymore. They've made it way too much of a time sink for too little progress.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:45 am**

Is Grievance on Thrall? Is that who coopasonic is referring to?

Grievance sounds really familiar, have they welcomed other OOers in the past? I feel like I might have briefly played with a guild by that name at some point. But you make it sounds like they're cross-game, so it could have been any MMO that OO tucked into. I rarely play anything for long, myself. I only got deeply into WoW's endgame back in Cata. Hard to predict how long I might last in Shadowlands. The fun for me has always been levelling a new character from scratch periodically, but running dungeons with folks I knew in Cata was a ton of fun too.

I'm definitely not up for seeking out a random guild. I don't think I can tolerate anyone under the age of 25 anymore. (With obvious exceptions of course. I'd be delighted to encounter any of you guys's family, but I have no intention of sitting in guild chat with people who speak exclusively in memes or who have ever installed TikTok on a device except under duress.)

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:50 am**

Sudy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:45 am Is Grievance on Thrall? Is that who coopasonic is referring to?

Grievance sounds really familiar, have they welcomed other OOers in the past? I feel like I might have briefly played with a guild by that name at some point. But you make it sounds like they're cross-game, so it could have been any MMO that OO tucked into. I rarely play anything for long, myself. I only got deeply into WoW's endgame back in Cata. Hard to predict how long I might last in Shadowlands. The fun for me has always been levelling a new character from scratch periodically, but running dungeons with folks I knew in Cata was a ton of fun too.

I'm not sure what Coop is referring to. Grievance is Horde on Thrall, Alliance on Proudmore. They've been around more than 20 years, and have a presence in practically every MMO out there, plus non-MMOs, MOBAs, team shooters, you name it. I first started playing with them in Rift years ago. And yeah, they're very OO-like. Grown ups without excessive drama.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:52 am**

Sudy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:45 am Is Grievance on Thrall? Is that who coopasonic is referring to?

I am not familiar with Grievance. To the best of my knowledge, nobody else at OO is in the same guild I am (SOK - Sterling Order of Knights). I joined in Everquest back in like 1999/2000. Almost as long as I've been with GG/GT/OO. That was back when I actually role-played in game. A very different time.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:58 am**

Really makes me wish WoW had a guild/group system more like ESO these days so you didn't have to choose. I suspect we'll never see another mainstream MMORPG with a classic server structure (if we ever see another mainstream MMORPG at all that isn't ported out of Korea lol). And while it has a special charm and lended itself to community building in WoW and it's smaller predecessors back before sharding, it just makes it too hard to play socially with different friends and external groups. I'm sure Blizzard never anticipated WoW becoming so huge.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:19 pm**

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:56 am I have all the characters on horde Area-52 in The Wanderers guild, not that it's very active any more. I am hoping to get enough for a casual raiding group but we'll see.

How active do you expect The Wanderers to be? I know the expansion is some ways out yet, but how populated were you guys when last expansion hit? I'm thinking a smaller community vibe if you're only hoping for casual raiding? (We're not generally raiders ourselves, just curious.) I remember at Cata launch we might have hit 15-25 during peak times initially (and this was cozy), but it faded to 5-15 within 2-3 months and that didn't leave us as much more than a social guild.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:50 am Grievance is Horde on Thrall, Alliance on Proudmore. They've been around more than 20 years, and have a presence in practically every MMO out there, plus non-MMOs, MOBAs, team shooters, you name it. I first started playing with them in Rift years ago. And yeah, they're very OO-like. Grown ups without excessive drama.

I presume you're not subbed right now, but when you were last active, how active does Grievance-Horde tend to be? I see on their forum that they get a ton of applications, like 5-10 a week. Though I'm sure a lot of folks wash out early. But is the guild so massive that it's impersonal, or is it still easy to build familiarity? Do they have a decent female/diverse membership? This might make Mrs. Nym more comfortable.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:46 pm**

They're like OO. They have a large core that's always there, and are big enough for weekly raids and events, but they also have people that come and go, or apply and don't show up. And yeah, it was a diverse group from what I recall. I joined them because I needed a solid, reliable group of people to play with who didn't play childish games, didn't have elitism/cliques, and were very much in the real life > games mindset.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:56 pm**

Just FYI for anyone who might care, the old Octopus Overlords guild on Sisters of Elune still exists. I think there are two of us who still log in on occasion.

Edit: I just checked and some of you last logged in 9 years ago.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:58 pm**

I was logged on a couple of weeks ago, too. Not to play, but just to look around the old guild. Which, by the way, was started ten years ago this month.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:28 pm**

Sudy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:19 pm
noxiousdog wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:56 am I have all the characters on horde Area-52 in The Wanderers guild, not that it's very active any more. I am hoping to get enough for a casual raiding group but we'll see.
How active do you expect The Wanderers to be? I know the expansion is some ways out yet, but how populated were you guys when last expansion hit? I'm thinking a smaller community vibe if you're only hoping for casual raiding? (We're not generally raiders ourselves, just curious.) I remember at Cata launch we might have hit 15-25 during peak times initially (and this was cozy), but it faded to 5-15 within 2-3 months and that didn't leave us as much more than a social guild.

My guess is not very. Legion went very well, BfA didn't. I know a lot of the regulars went to classic.

Posted: **Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:44 pm**

I lasted a week in classic. Yawn

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:25 am**

The first new character I created, I had the option to pick the classic starting zone, and my highest-level character pre-squish was only 90 I believe.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:04 am**

Playing a Blood Elf Mage, and I'm just about at the point I'll have to sub or not (level 19) and trying to decide if I want to. Interestingly, I think this attempt has finally helped me understand why WoW has never really clicked with me.

One of the things I've always struggled with in WoW is the very disjointed way it tells it's story. Coming from MMO's that have a bright neon "HERE'S THE MAIN STORY" structure (FF XIV, ESO, GW2, SWTOR), WoW is quite jarring. I ran through the starter zone, which kicked me to Orgrammar (?, main city) for a blip, which then sent me to the Troll zone where I've spent the past 5 hours doing quests.

While there's lots of things to to do, none of it feels particularly connected to anything. There are some quests which tie back to what I assume is the main storyline for this zone, but those aren't identified in any particular way. There's doesn't seem to be any way to distinguish a main, important, story-driving quest from any random meaningless side quest, as they all just show up as the same yellow quest marker. As I result, I end up having to chase every single "?" on the map, because I might otherwise miss something critically important to progression.

This ends up making me feel like I'm required to do a ton of unnecessary busy work, rather than just doing the quests that will move the larger story forward. I'm just running around the map doing a ton of random "stuff".

Maybe there's just something I'm missing here. Is there some sort of indicator of a "main story quest" that moves things along that I'm just not seeing?

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:19 am**

I wasn't aware WoW had a story.

Someone who's played more recently will have to give you a better answer. I thought I heard they were slightly overhauling the quest-giver symbols/system in the upcoming expansion (and only for the expansion) so things are clearer. But while I believe they've made story a slightly larger focus in recent expansions, the quests themselves were always the focus in early WoW. I recall Blizzard being regarded as the ones who made questing mainstream in MMORPGs as a reaction to the grinding present in so many of the earlier titles. While they didn't accomplish it at launch (at least Horde-side), they wanted it to be a grind-free experience in the traditional "go kill mobs to level" sense. SWTOR et al. seemed to be designed in response to the complaint that story came second in WoW of that era, with people usually just skipping the quest dialogue.

On that note, that's actually why I'm confused to hell every time I try to start FFXIV. It feels wrong not to do every quest I see, at least while I'm within level range.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:33 am**

Sudy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:19 am I wasn't aware WoW had a story.

I think that's why I've bounced off WoW half a dozen times now. While the moment to moment gameplay is good, I need some sort of larger quest thread that pulls me through the game. Otherwise I just get frustrated and bored.

All the other games I mentioned have side quests that you can do if you want (and often need to in order to be high enough level to tackle the main quests), but it's very clear in each of them exactly what you need to do to advance the main storyline. Once you get to the appropriate level, you can either choose to continue doing all the side "stuff", or simply move on with it.

That seems to be missing entirely in WoW, so I feel like I'm just wandering aimlessly around a zone and randomly bumping into things to do. That's just not terribly compelling to me.

Oh well...WoW will just be another in the long line of "Skinypupy really wants to like it, but doesn't" game heap.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:39 am**

And I looked it up and I think maybe the only thing they've changed is making a separate section in the quest tracker for campaign quests, which should already be in the game as of this patch. I presume this will be more relevant in the latter expansions/areas.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:19 am**

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:04 am Playing a Blood Elf Mage, and I'm just about at the point I'll have to sub or not (level 19) and trying to decide if I want to. Interestingly, I think this attempt has finally helped me understand why WoW has never really clicked with me.

One of the things I've always struggled with in WoW is the very disjointed way it tells it's story. Coming from MMO's that have a bright neon "HERE'S THE MAIN STORY" structure (FF XIV, ESO, GW2, SWTOR), WoW is quite jarring. I ran through the starter zone, which kicked me to Orgrammar (?, main city) for a blip, which then sent me to the Troll zone where I've spent the past 5 hours doing quests.

While there's lots of things to to do, none of it feels particularly connected to anything. There are some quests which tie back to what I assume is the main storyline for this zone, but those aren't identified in any particular way. There's doesn't seem to be any way to distinguish a main, important, story-driving quest from any random meaningless side quest, as they all just show up as the same yellow quest marker. As I result, I end up having to chase every single "?" on the map, because I might otherwise miss something critically important to progression.

This ends up making me feel like I'm required to do a ton of unnecessary busy work, rather than just doing the quests that will move the larger story forward. I'm just running around the map doing a ton of random "stuff".

Maybe there's just something I'm missing here. Is there some sort of indicator of a "main story quest" that moves things along that I'm just not seeing?

You happened to start in a zone that was not revamped during the Cataclysm expansion. Questing in other Vanilla zones has been completely streamlined where it's pretty clear what the main storyline is.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:27 am**

gilraen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:19 am
Skinypupy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:04 am Playing a Blood Elf Mage, and I'm just about at the point I'll have to sub or not (level 19) and trying to decide if I want to. Interestingly, I think this attempt has finally helped me understand why WoW has never really clicked with me.

One of the things I've always struggled with in WoW is the very disjointed way it tells it's story. Coming from MMO's that have a bright neon "HERE'S THE MAIN STORY" structure (FF XIV, ESO, GW2, SWTOR), WoW is quite jarring. I ran through the starter zone, which kicked me to Orgrammar (?, main city) for a blip, which then sent me to the Troll zone where I've spent the past 5 hours doing quests.

While there's lots of things to to do, none of it feels particularly connected to anything. There are some quests which tie back to what I assume is the main storyline for this zone, but those aren't identified in any particular way. There's doesn't seem to be any way to distinguish a main, important, story-driving quest from any random meaningless side quest, as they all just show up as the same yellow quest marker. As I result, I end up having to chase every single "?" on the map, because I might otherwise miss something critically important to progression.

This ends up making me feel like I'm required to do a ton of unnecessary busy work, rather than just doing the quests that will move the larger story forward. I'm just running around the map doing a ton of random "stuff".

Maybe there's just something I'm missing here. Is there some sort of indicator of a "main story quest" that moves things along that I'm just not seeing?
You happened to start in a zone that was not revamped during the Cataclysm expansion. Questing in other Vanilla zones has been completely streamlined where it's pretty clear what the main storyline is.

Interesting. Maybe I'll sub for a month and try to power through this zone and see how the others work.

Seems odd that the game would direct me to start in this rather confusing zone first.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:34 am**

Ah, right, that's true... the Blood Elf and Draenei 1-10 and 10-20 zones weren't revamped during Cataclysm. That said, while I haven't played in a few expansions, I remember there still being plenty of random nonsense in quests afterward. There are just usually tenuous threads tying them to the zone's overall plot.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:25 am**

WoW up to and through the second expansion: enter a quest hub, find 20 different '?' hanging in the air, spend five hours chasing down 20 Boar Kidneys and 14 Pristine Paws, get shunted to the next quest hub with 20 '?' hanging in the air. One of those might be related to the story.

WoW since Cataclysm: Arrive at quest hub. There are three '?', one of which is clearly the main quest. The other two are side quests that take place in the same area. Finish those and get the breadcrumb to the next mini-hub with three '?', one of which continues the main quest story, the other two of which are side quests. You won't be collecting 14 Zhevra Testicles either. The quests tend to be narrative and more interesting.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:51 am**

I rolled a Forsaken warlock on Thrall. The idea is that she's my human Warlock from Classic (even though that may not make narrative sense).

I like the new starting area a lot. It took running the mini-instance four times to finally get a blue lol. Definitely weird to wind up with a trinket at level 10. Nevermind five bags, among them a 10-slot and a 12-slot. In my day, we were lucky to graduate from the starting zone with one half-slot bag and a used toothpick.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:58 am**

WRT to Grievance on Thrall, I petitioned and joined during ...Warlords I think? The one with your own stronghold.

There were always many people on and they were always friendly. I pretty much solo'd the whole expansion so I can't say I did much grouping but the few times I did they were great.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:15 pm**

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:25 am WoW up to and through the second expansion: enter a quest hub, find 20 different '?' hanging in the air, spend five hours chasing down 20 Boar Kidneys and 14 Pristine Paws, get shunted to the next quest hub with 20 '?' hanging in the air. One of those might be related to the story.

WoW since Cataclysm: Arrive at quest hub. There are three '?', one of which is clearly the main quest. The other two are side quests that take place in the same area. Finish those and get the breadcrumb to the next mini-hub with three '?', one of which continues the main quest story, the other two of which are side quests. You won't be collecting 14 Zhevra Testicles either. The quests tend to be narrative and more interesting.

See, this is where I think I must be missing something or doing something wrong. In FF XIV, the next main quest is always listed in the top left and has a very obvious icon. In GW2, there's always a big green swirly that shows the next main quest. In SWTOR and ESO, there's a different quest icon for main quests.

After the starter zone, WoW took me to Zuldazar. I assume that any quest that I get from the Troll King is considered the "main quest", but there's no in-game indication of that. Every quest in the log looks exactly the same. Every quest marker looks exactly the same. All the quest descriptions read very similar.

Maybe there's some sort of indicator that I'm just missing...I dunno.

Posted: **Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:15 pm**

That's just their style of storytelling. If you go to a mini-hub and there are three quests there, they won't give you the breadcrumb to the next hub until you do all three anyway, so you can't really ignore the sidequests and just focus down the main. The main quest is simply the one that continues through multiple hubs. And to be clear, sometimes there isn't really a main questline of mission 1, mission 2, mission 3, etc, but rather each zone will have its own storyline that might involve multiple questlines tied to the same goal (repelling an invading faction, or discovering why trolls are coming back from the dead, or whatever.)

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:09 pm**

If someone remembers, can you post when the pre-expansion event hits? I might drop in to participate.

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:07 pm**

BTW, you can level until 20 for free. 50 is the current max level, so that's a decent chunk of content you can play for free.

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:52 pm**

Jag wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:07 pm BTW, you can level until 20 for free. 50 is the current max level, so that's a decent chunk of content you can play for free.

FWIW, without doing any sort of group content and just completing solo quests, getting to 20 took me just under 5 hours.

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:53 pm**

The old days of questlines dead-ending at forced group content are far behind.

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:35 pm**

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:53 pm The old days of questlines dead-ending at forced group content are far behind.

Not for BfA they are not... Maybe for low-levels, though.

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:05 pm**

I got through the starter zone and it forced me into Zuldazar/BfA which surprised me, as the previous expansion doesn't usually become free content for paying subsrcribers until after the new expansion hits I thought. But I guess this was necessary with the change to the levelling system last week, and they weren't going to make returning users pay full price to continue past level 10 prior to the release of Shadowlands.

I kind of assumed I'd have to use Chromie to select between one of the older expansions to level in. I was going to pick WoD since that's the first one I haven't played, or maybe Wrath since even though I've played it, it's been years and I always thought it had such beautiful zones. (And moustached walrus people!)

Damn, you get a mount for FREE at level TEN now? 20-year-old me wants my 100g and 100 hours back from vanilla.

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:08 pm**

gilraen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:35 pm
Blackhawk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:53 pm The old days of questlines dead-ending at forced group content are far behind.
Not for BfA they are not... Maybe for low-levels, though.

I frigging love 5-man instances, though. I'd literally play a WoW with no questing, and a bunch more dungeons. For some reason I never even get sick of running the old ones. (Well... most of them. Gnomeregan has always been bullshit, even since the redesign.) I'm kind of excited I have three expansions' to catch up on. It's going to be weird not being able to run the vanilla ones as I level this character up.

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:09 pm**

FWIW, the questing revamp included everything except the areas from Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich King. That means that you'll be back to collecting 20 Zombie Brains.

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:22 pm**

Being raised on Vanilla like most of us were... I honestly kinda don't hate the old disjointed questing. There were some lousy ones, sure. And I don't recall caring much for BC zones because they tended to be huge and kind of empty. But I enjoyed being able to partially zone out and almost treat solo questing like a sort of rhythm game.

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:21 pm**

There was something meditative about it, wasn't there?

Posted: **Sat Oct 17, 2020 9:48 pm**

I spent over two levels of grinding basilisks to get enough money for my first mount.

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:16 am**

Sudy wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:05 pm I got through the starter zone and it forced me into Zuldazar/BfA which surprised me, as the previous expansion doesn't usually become free content for paying subsrcribers until after the new expansion hits I thought. But I guess this was necessary with the change to the levelling system last week, and they weren't going to make returning users pay full price to continue past level 10 prior to the release of Shadowlands.

I kind of assumed I'd have to use Chromie to select between one of the older expansions to level in. I was going to pick WoD since that's the first one I haven't played, or maybe Wrath since even though I've played it, it's been years and I always thought it had such beautiful zones. (And moustached walrus people!)

Damn, you get a mount for FREE at level TEN now? 20-year-old me wants my 100g and 100 hours back from vanilla.

I know you can't use "Chromie Time" until you have a level 50 but I didn't realize it sent you to BFA. Apparently, you can still level normally through the regular expansions as your level grows. What Chromie Time does is set a specific expansion level to scale for 10-50.

https://www.wowhead.com/guides/chromie- ... on-scaling

Here is the level list without using Chromie Time. Warlords is fastest at around 12 hours, but Legion is my favorite.

World Scaling Without Chromie Time
If you choose to level your characters without Chromie Time, the world has the following scaling starting in Shadowlands:

Vanilla Zones: 10-30
Burning Crusade Zones: 10-30
Wrath of the Lich King Zones: 10-30
Cataclysm Zones: 30-35
Mists of Pandaria Zones: 10-35
Warlords of Draenor Zones: 10-40
Legion Zones: 10-45
Battle for Azeroth Zones: 10-50

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:39 pm**

Sudy wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:22 pm But I enjoyed being able to partially zone out and almost treat solo questing like a sort of rhythm game.

Sudy wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:08 pm I'd literally play a WoW with no questing, and a bunch more dungeons.

See, both of these sound absolutely dreadful to me.

I gave up trying to sync my playstyle with WoW yesterday, and went back to FF XIV instead. It's clear their story-driven approach jives much better with me.

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:08 pm**

Thanks for that info Jag, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the whole thing. In the BfA starting area now and getting whumped by all the new stuff, but I admit it's not as confusing as when I returned in MoP.

SP: I dunno man. My brain wants a good story (and the lack of narrative interest is often why I eventually quit), but WoW and many of its predecessors seem like dopamine treadmills that just... work. And even though WoW's mechanics and tab-target combat are archaic now, they're one of the best-ever implementations. Grinding through quest mobs, queuing up each spell at the right moment... I feel like I'm playing Guitar Hero. I believe FFXIV's combat isn't a lot different, but I've never really seen what it has to offer... really do want to try to get deeper into it eventually.

I never got into raiding, but always found 5-man instances to be obscene fun because they require just a bit of coordination. Working the DPS chart is its own state of flow, and it feels great to finally get the rare item upgrade drop you've been waiting for.

Octopus Overlords

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