A Feast for Crows Discussion (Spoilerific!)

[LawBeefaroni]

2. Jon's already had one chance to leave the wall, be legitimized, take Winterfell and a beautiful wife and rule as his father's son. He decided to turn it down even before he learned he'd been made Lord Commander. Why would he turn his back on his brothers now that he IS Lord Commander in order to marry Dany?

He wouldn't necessarily be turning his back on the watch if he found (and possibly, but I don't buy it, marries?) an ally in the fight against the Others.

[Montag]

What settings did the bard Tom of Seven Strings appear?

[Kelric]

Well yeah, that'd make him a Targaryen first and foremost due to his father's blood. Which makes him a potential husband for Dany. And dragons can fight the Others.

You know, that's always been my thought as well, except for a couple things:

1. What would be the point of him marrying Dany if they can't have kids? (which she, allegedly, cannot, if the magi's prophecy/curse was correct.)

2. Jon's already had one chance to leave the wall, be legitimized, take Winterfell and a beautiful wife and rule as his father's son. He decided to turn it down even before he learned he'd been made Lord Commander. Why would he turn his back on his brothers now that he IS Lord Commander in order to marry Dany?

It's not unfathomable, and I've actually thought all along that that's where things were headed, but the more I re-read and think about the books, the more convoluted and implausible it seems.

Sith

Jon's honor doesn't matter - the duty to the realm does. What can protect the realm better than giving it a strong king and queen? And I've never thought Dany is permanently barren. Otherwise the Targaryen's die out with her unless Jon has kids on some other woman.

What settings did the bard Tom of Seven Strings appear?

He shows up again in the Frey camp besieging Riverrun, but stays on with Jaime Lannister when the top Freys are run off. I'm sure he's still working for the outlaw band and is simply using his position to get them information on people they want to kill.

[Odin]

Jon's honor doesn't matter - the duty to the realm does. What can protect the realm better than giving it a strong king and queen? And I've never thought Dany is permanently barren. Otherwise the Targaryen's die out with her unless Jon has kids on some other woman.

Both of those strike me as too convenient for Martin. He never takes the easy road out.

You can't un-join the Night's Watch. In their history dating back some 8,000 years, nobody has ever been dismissed from service (or at least that's the impression we get). It's for life. Two kings - Stannis and Robb - have both offered to dismiss Jon from the Wall (though he only knows of one) and Cersai had it in her head that she could bring Kettleblack back once he'd made his mischief with Margery Tyrell, but to date this has never happened. Not with Jon, not with Maester Aemon - it's unheard of. Now factor in the idea that Jon is Lord Commander. He has a responsibility to his men. He can't just step down from that, in addition to the fact that you can't un-join the Night's Watch.

I may be proven wrong, only time will tell, but I just can't picture a scenario where Jon decides it's OK to step down from the Night's Watch and marry Dany. I'm increasingly convinced that won't happen - it would be too clean, even predictable, for Martin.

Likewise, you can't sell Dany as barren (which she clearly believes she is) and then just say 'Just kidding!' later on. At least, not if you're Martin. She will never have children in the traditional sense. I liken it to death in Westeros. Sure, in a very small set of circumstances, the dead don't stay down. You might be brought back by Thoros of Myr as happened with Dondarrion (and indirectly to Catlyn). You might come back as a wight. You might even come back as Coldhands, who appears to be a Black Brother who somehow retained or regained a personality despite being turned at least partway into a wight. Hell, you might even be reanimated as some sort of a zombie by a quirky ex-maester working for the Queen. But you DO NOT just get up and start prancing around hale and healthy and 'all's right with the world' as if you'd never been hung, stabbed, beaten, drowned, poisoned, or killed in some other grizzly fashion.

With that as the boundary of medical miracles in the world of GRRM, I think it's unlikely that Dany will pop kids out of her womb in the future. She's the Mother of Dragons. She's the mother of all the slaves she has freed. I don't see her being the mother of actual human babies without some sort of grand sacrifice of a kind I cannot even fathom.

Sith

Edit: Can't remember how to spell Circe or Cersai or Cirsei

[LawBeefaroni]

With that as the boundary of medical miracles in the world of GRRM, I think it's unlikely that Dany will pop kids out of her womb in the future. She's the Mother of Dragons. She's the mother of all the slaves she has freed. I don't see her being the mother of actual human babies without some sort of grand sacrifice of a kind I cannot even fathom.

Sith

Don't forget how she became barren in the first place, via a magical medical "miracle."

[Odin]

With that as the boundary of medical miracles in the world of GRRM, I think it's unlikely that Dany will pop kids out of her womb in the future. She's the Mother of Dragons. She's the mother of all the slaves she has freed. I don't see her being the mother of actual human babies without some sort of grand sacrifice of a kind I cannot even fathom.

Sith

Don't forget how she became barren in the first place, via a magical medical "miracle."

Granted. Doesn't change the fact that what's done is done. If you want to tell me I'm wrong about how Martin does things you can, but really? I think there's real meaning to the whole use of "mother" with her, in reference to both the dragons and to the slaves, and I think Martin clearly intends for us to understand that Dany will not be having babies. Ever.

Sith

[LawBeefaroni]

With that as the boundary of medical miracles in the world of GRRM, I think it's unlikely that Dany will pop kids out of her womb in the future. She's the Mother of Dragons. She's the mother of all the slaves she has freed. I don't see her being the mother of actual human babies without some sort of grand sacrifice of a kind I cannot even fathom.

Sith

Don't forget how she became barren in the first place, via a magical medical "miracle."

Granted. Doesn't change the fact that what's done is done. If you want to tell me I'm wrong about how Martin does things you can, but really? I think there's real meaning to the whole use of "mother" with her, in reference to both the dragons and to the slaves, and I think Martin clearly intends for us to understand that Dany will not be having babies. Ever.

Sith

You could very well be right. In fact I tend to agree. But the one thing that I'm sure of is we can't really be sure what's going to happen.

[Montag]

Jon can leave the Night's Watch if the Black is no longer needed. If they defeat the Others once and for all, then the Wall is no longer needed. The Wildlings have already settled inside the wall.

[Odin]

Jon can leave the Night's Watch if the Black is no longer needed. If they defeat the Others once and for all, then the Wall is no longer needed. The Wildlings have already settled inside the wall.

You know, that is a very good point and one I hadn't considered.

At the same time, I can't see the issue of the Wall being decided much before the end of the series. The wall is a significant factor in the war between fire (Rh'llor) and ice (the Ancient Other), so I don't foresee its fall coming much before the end of the story if at all.

Then again, I don't foresee much of what Martin pulls out of his flabby posterior. Maybe the wall is brought down, the Night Watch is effectively wiped out, and the only thing that can save everybody is for Dany to unify Westeros, marry Jon, and bring her dragons to bear against the forces of darkness streaming down out of the North. That would be cool.

Sith

[Kelric]

I just can't see Martin letting the Targaryen line die out with Dany and Jon. They're really the only two left alive. He more than likely can produce kids but his duties prevent him from it, she probably can't but may be able to. Something's gotta give. Dragons live until they're killed is the general theory on dragons in Martin's world. What good is having the three dragons if there are no Targaryen's to control them past this generation?

[LawBeefaroni]

I just can't see Martin letting the Targaryen line die out with Dany and Jon. They're really the only two left alive.

I'm going to re-read the The Hedge Knight stories and see if Egg ever dropped some wayward seed. It's been a while since I've read those. Or do true Targaryens have to be inbred?

EDIT: Nevermind, I remembered he was like 11 in that series.

[Kelric]

I just can't see Martin letting the Targaryen line die out with Dany and Jon. They're really the only two left alive.

I'm going to re-read the The Hedge Knight stories and see if Egg ever dropped some wayward seed. It's been a while since I've read those. Or do true Targaryens have to be inbred?

Well Jon isn't inbred, so there's that. And I haven't read The Hedge Knight stuff, so I can't help you there.

I want to know what riddle The Sphinx is the answer to. A Targaryen one, or some other?

[jaskerr]

I just can't see Martin letting the Targaryen line die out with Dany and Jon. They're really the only two left alive.

I'm going to re-read the The Hedge Knight stories and see if Egg ever dropped some wayward seed. It's been a while since I've read those. Or do true Targaryens have to be inbred?

EDIT: Nevermind, I remembered he was like 11 in that series.

I remember the last time I tried to find the Hedge Knight books, I was unsuccessful. What are the names of them?

[LawBeefaroni]

I just can't see Martin letting the Targaryen line die out with Dany and Jon. They're really the only two left alive.

I'm going to re-read the The Hedge Knight stories and see if Egg ever dropped some wayward seed. It's been a while since I've read those. Or do true Targaryens have to be inbred?

EDIT: Nevermind, I remembered he was like 11 in that series.

I remember the last time I tried to find the Hedge Knight books, I was unsuccessful. What are the names of them?

They are short stories in Legends and LegendsII, collections of short stories edited by Robert Silverberg. The first one is full of great stories. The second isn't as good but it worth it for The Sworn Sword (Martin's Hedge Knight story).

There is also a graphic novel version I think that is supposedly fairly true to the short stories.

[yossar]

I just can't see Martin letting the Targaryen line die out with Dany and Jon. They're really the only two left alive. He more than likely can produce kids but his duties prevent him from it, she probably can't but may be able to. Something's gotta give. Dragons live until they're killed is the general theory on dragons in Martin's world. What good is having the three dragons if there are no Targaryen's to control them past this generation?

Why are you so sure the Targaryens win?

[Kelric]

I just can't see Martin letting the Targaryen line die out with Dany and Jon. They're really the only two left alive. He more than likely can produce kids but his duties prevent him from it, she probably can't but may be able to. Something's gotta give. Dragons live until they're killed is the general theory on dragons in Martin's world. What good is having the three dragons if there are no Targaryen's to control them past this generation?

Why are you so sure the Targaryens win?

No clue. I just want them to now that Robb Stark got assassinated.

[yossar]

I'm predicting that the dragons all die in the last book.

[LawBeefaroni]

I'm predicting that the dragons all die in the last book.

They can't. The three headed dragon is a Holy Trinity allegory.

[yossar]

I'm predicting that the dragons all die in the last book.

They can't. The three headed dragon is a Holy Trinity allegory.

So you're saying only the one that represents Jesus is going to die? I forget which one that was.

[Kelric]

I'm predicting that the dragons all die in the last book.

They can't. The three headed dragon is a Holy Trinity allegory.

So you're saying only the one that represents Jesus is going to die? I forget which one that was.

It couldn't be the black one, the Republicans would throw a fit.

[Odin]

The Others take your allegory!

[Odin]

Ugh - attention prospective audiobook readers, you must be warned about A Feast for Crows. I'm on my second round with this audiobook, and after reveling to the extremely talented Roy Dotrice for the prior three books, John Lee is a huge letdown for AFfC. He isn't nearly as good at the voices as Dotrice, he pronounces a lot of the names differently, and for some odd reason he insists on using this really odd emphasis whenever any character refers to THE SEA... STONE... CHAIR - and with his accent it comes out more like sea stown chauh. Gah! I cringe every time he does it.

Anyway, I don't know if I'd have resisted buying it even if I'd known ahead of time how bad it was compared to the previous ones, since anything's better than trying to read such a huge book while driving at 80 MPH, but if anybody else is on the fence about it, I'd recommend saving your money.

Sith

[Poleaxe]

I just can't see Martin letting the Targaryen line die out with Dany and Jon. They're really the only two left alive.

I'm going to re-read the The Hedge Knight stories and see if Egg ever dropped some wayward seed. It's been a while since I've read those. Or do true Targaryens have to be inbred?

Well Jon isn't inbred, so there's that. And I haven't read The Hedge Knight stuff, so I can't help you there.

I want to know what riddle The Sphinx is the answer to. A Targaryen one, or some other?

You should check out the hedge night stories. They are very good. Legends 1 is just a fantastic book of short stories.

[Shinjin]

You should check out the hedge night stories. They are very good. Legends 1 is just a fantastic book of short stories.

Does The Hedge Knight: Second Edition contain the stuff from Legends I and II?

If not, then are these the same book?

Legends
Legends: Short Novels by the Masters of Modern Fantasy, Vol. 1

And I assume the Legends II book is

Legends II: Dragon, Sword, and King

and not

Legends II: Shadows, Gods, and Demons

[LawBeefaroni]

You should check out the hedge night stories. They are very good. Legends 1 is just a fantastic book of short stories.

Does The Hedge Knight: Second Edition contain the stuff from Legends I and II?

It looks like it's only The Hedge Knight and not The Sworn Sword (judging by the description). Also, it's a graphic novel.

If not, then are these the same book?

Legends
Legends: Short Novels by the Masters of Modern Fantasy, Vol. 1

Yes.

And I assume the Legends II book is

Legends II: Dragon, Sword, and King

and not

Legends II: Shadows, Gods, and Demons

Correct.

IIRC, there was only one Legends I, though different editions. There were two different Legends II. Actually three, IIRC. One was both books combined and later editions split them up. This is the combined edition.

[craterus]

from martins blog

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/52915

[Odin]

from martins blog

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/52915

My response - "Quit fucking around and finish the damn series!"

[Remus West]

from martins blog

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/52915

My response - "Quit fucking around and finish the damn series!"

Amen Brother.

[Bruce]

I just stumbled on a George RR Martin Podcast.

2 eps so far, both done this month.

I can't find a direct link (I tried - just not too hard) so you may just have to search the podcast directory via iTunes to get it yourselves.

[Odin]

Any interesting tidbits on there?

[Zaxxon]

Dotrice to read new audiobook version of AFFC. Odin, you may commence rejoicing.

Sent from my mobile device.

[Odin]

Dotrice to read new audiobook version of AFFC. Odin, you may commence rejoicing.

Dammit! Now I need to go buy a new copy. Plus I still haven't picked up the Audiobook for A Dance with Dragons. Plus, I really don't have anywhere to listen to audiobooks, like I used to when I had a 90-minute commute to work and made a 4-hour road trip about every 6 weeks.

On the other hand, the AFFC audiobook sucked bigtime, so this is, ultimately, excellent news.

Thanks, Zack!

[Odin]

Some posts I made in one of the Game of Thrones series threads were apropos to this one, so I figured I'd stick them in here as well.

Books 4 and 5 both suffer from the same issue - too much filler, not enough bite. There were far too many storylines that could have been cut down to a chapter or so at most, but instead rolled along chapter after chapter after chapter. They lacked the punch and the monumental events (the unexpected deaths and revelations) that we'd gotten used to in the first three books and which, in many respects, define the series.

And this is coming from somebody who has read book 4 at least twice (probably more like 3 times) and listened to it on audiobook at least twice. Likewise, I read book 5, then immediately turned back to page 1 and read it a second time. So it's not as if I didn't give them a fair chance to impress me. They just lack too much of what made the prior books so fantastic.

both books combined have fewer OMGWTF moments than any of the first 3 books individually

This was the key for me. At the time I first read AFfC, the interminable wait to get my hands on it was no doubt a factor for me, but it isn't anymore. All these years later, I can read that book and judge it mostly on its own merits, not how I felt about it back when it was first published. And my overall feeling is only slightly more charitable than it was then - it resolved virtually nothing, it set up new mysteries (largely as-yet unresolved)... it reminded me, in fact, of the post-Lord of Chaos books by Robert Jordan, where he split off in a bunch of different directions, adding more minutia and "day-in-the-life" character narrative without moving the story along at all. Which is the key for me. I want to see the story move along. I do mind "slow, casual development" when it's

1. in the middle of a series that, to that point, hadn't over-used it.
2. not broken up by some significant action once in a while. And by significant, I don't mean a scuffle with some bandits, I mean something that's meaningful to the story.
3. not moving the story forward.

Ultimately, I simply feel that AFfC didn't do enough to advance the story. It read too much like "meanwhile, back at the ranch..." and not enough like "here's the really interesting stuff that's going on which is directly related to key story arcs and advances the tale in a meaningful, gripping way."

It probably has more to do with following book 3 - which has some really important turns-of-events and significant cliffhangers at the end, significantly amping up the level of dramatic tension. It's natural for a writer to dip down from that high level of tension so the reader can catch their breath, but the "dip" shouldn't, IMO, last for an entire novel. AFfC (and to an extent ADwD) didn't build to a crescendo the way ASoS did. It just kind of rambled about, looking in on various people going about their day. Bleh. Far from the worst book I've ever read, but a significant disappointment in a series that was absolutely stellar through the first three books.

I'm sincerely hoping that Martin has made it beyond this "interval" period in the story and can now recapture the kind of storytelling that made the first three novels exceptional.