A Feast for Crows Discussion (Spoilerific!)

[Peacedog]

-During Eddards dream of the battle in the south with the Kingsguard he mentions the prince refered to the tower as "his tower of joy". After he remembers the fight his dream fades and he thinks of his sisters death. This implies those events are connected somehow. I think it's likely she was in the tower and I'm guessing died in child birth.

It's explicitly stated that after his sister dies while he is by her side, he remains for some time until Howland Reed, "The little Crannogman", leads him away by the hand. He and Howland were the only survivors of the fight with the Kingsguard located there. I don't think it can be an implied connection.

I'll say it again, Howland Reed for MVP!

-In another part he thinks of the secret he has kept for his sister and how much it has cost him. No more details than that, but it implies there is a dangerous unspoken secret.

A secret kept for 14 years, to boot.

Oh, and Remus, Eddard marries Cateleyn rigvht before going off to fight. He sticks it in her a couple of times for good measure (he is the Heir to winterfel now, with Brandon's death). That produced Robb as it turns out (catelyn was fertal, yes she was. And maybe Eddard was shooting cop killers to boot).

Eddard claims Jon was conceived while he was away on campaign. The idea being that war will do things to a man, he had been away from his wife for a very long time (a wife he barely new), and was more than a touch horny. The product of that lust was unfortunately Jon (excuse me, the alleged product of the alleged lust). Catelyn even explicitly thinks that she doesn't begrudge him the sexual encounter - merely the production of a bastard that he has rubbed in her face for 14 years by treating it like a child they had made (and explicitly by having Jon around all the time - she more or less thinks she'd have expected Ned to make sure Jon was well treated, merely that it should have been done out of sight).

[Bob]

Something minor I haven't seen mentioned here: regarding Cersei's prophecy.. I'm thinking the valonqar (Valyrian for little brother) of the prophecy isn't Tyrion at all, but Jaime. Techincally, Cersei is first-born, making Jaime her little brother.

[Peacedog]

Something minor I haven't seen mentioned here: regarding Cersei's prophecy.. I'm thinking the valonqar (Valyrian for little brother) of the prophecy isn't Tyrion at all, but Jaime. Techincally, Cersei is first-born, making Jaime her little brother.

Good point.

[Bob]

Something minor I haven't seen mentioned here: regarding Cersei's prophecy.. I'm thinking the valonqar (Valyrian for little brother) of the prophecy isn't Tyrion at all, but Jaime. Techincally, Cersei is first-born, making Jaime her little brother.

Good point.

Also, based on Jaime's POVs in this book, he's more likely to kill her than Tryion. Most likely Tryion has moved on to better things and given up on his family completely (killing your dad usually implies that sort of thing.)

[SuperHiro]

Re: Sparrows marching against the Wall

IIRC, that was part of Cersei's reasoning why she gave the High Septon permission to start them up again. Not only to secure a blessing for Tommen, but to score a big thing of meat shields to eventually go against Stannis.

Plus it makes logical sense. Sparrows HATE other religions. Red God is increasing in popularity thanks to the Brotherhood without Borders (I absolutely HATE what Martin did to those guys by the way). So the Red God is on EVERYONE's mind. And who's the hands down most notable and famous worshipper of the Red God? As for any "OMG, it won't make logistical sense!" arguements, these guys are religious fanatics. I don't think that'll be an issue.

There needs to be a Sandor/Gregor showdown. There just has to be. Maybe FrankenGregor goes buck nutty and they have to recruit Sandor from the monastery (assuming it's him) Rambo-style. But it just has to happen. Sandor isn't dead simply because he's such a compelling character, and those kinds of characters don't die out of sight of POV characters.

And regarding Tyrion, IIRC from the preview chapters GRRM has read. Tyrion hasn't completely let go of his family ties. He still states that he's a lion and always has Jamie on his mind.

[Peacedog]

IIRC, that was part of Cersei's reasoning why she gave the High Septon permission to start them up again. Not only to secure a blessing for Tommen, but to score a big thing of meat shields to eventually go against Stannis.

As a matter of course, I'll point out that Cersei is a fucking whore. But also a dumbass. I understand what she was thinking, but it may have been a touch premature. She thought the new High Septon was someone she'd be able to manipulate. I think that's proven false, and I don't just mean her capture. The radical changes we saw before that were certainly telling.

Anyway, I don't think the new HS's goals are going to match up to hers except coincidentally. So while he may want to do that, it's not that simple (see below).

Plus it makes logical sense. Sparrows HATE other religions. Red God is increasing in popularity thanks to the Brotherhood without Borders (I absolutely HATE what Martin did to those guys by the way). So the Red God is on EVERYONE's mind. And who's the hands down most notable and famous worshipper of the Red God? As for any "OMG, it won't make logistical sense!" arguements, these guys are religious fanatics. I don't think that'll be an issue.

Well, historically, we know very little true. I think it's reasonable to wonder if the faction will take on th eattributes of the person ultimately guiding it (i.e. Crazy new High Septon), and it probably will. I do think the wall (or what's beyond) is the ultimate point of the books, and there's no reason why the CHS won't want to be a player up there. He may have an agenda, and that agenda may be something alltogether different, and more complex, than "bring the faith to other people" (which looks obvious right now I'll grant you).

Either way, the sparrows will definately go where he points I agree. But a march on the north is more than a touch premature, and complicated. Consider that just about every significant faction south of the wall would oppose such a march, save the Ironborn (who might just be int he way of it as a matter of their own goals). Also, nobody gets north without either 1) a boat or 2) Moat Cailin. And there's quite a few people at the wall right now. Too many for the Sparrows to go up there and try to assert anything like that. They're likely get their asses handed to them between Stannis' smallish (but veteran) contingent, the tiny (but increasingly SAS like) Night's Watch contingent, and the 70-zillion assorted wildlings. But seriously, I don't think they're in a position to get the rest of the realm behind that and they have to be to get that to happen.

And I'm not sure the Sparrows can claim to field a large or well trained fighting force just yet (people like Lancel will certainly be an asset on that front).

Who are you calling the most famouse exmaple of worshipping the Red God? Stannis? Practically speaking, I can buy that. But until I R'hllor tells me Melisandre is one of his instruments I ain't buying her as one of the faith. So while many people won't know any better (excepting perhaps the Dornish), and that's ultimately all that matters, there's more going on there than meets the eye. But I think that applies to the CHS too.

[Kelric]

On Jon's heritage, don't also forget that Eddard found his sister in a 'bed of blood,' as I've said before. And the only reason the Kingsguard would have been there instead of on the Trident was to protect one of royal blood. I doubt they would have stayed if it was only Lyanna there and left Rhaegar to go fight the battle for the realm with only one or two others.

Something minor I haven't seen mentioned here: regarding Cersei's prophecy.. I'm thinking the valonqar (Valyrian for little brother) of the prophecy isn't Tyrion at all, but Jaime. Techincally, Cersei is first-born, making Jaime her little brother.

Good point.

Also, based on Jaime's POVs in this book, he's more likely to kill her than Tryion. Most likely Tryion has moved on to better things and given up on his family completely (killing your dad usually implies that sort of thing.)

I thought that towards the end as well.

[Peacedog]

I totally forgot. . .

Tyrion hasn't completely let go of his family ties.

I wasn't meaning to imply he had earlier. Rather, he's let go of Cersei (it's possible they all have). Despite the words they exchanged at the end of ASoS I wouldn't doubt for a second that Tyrion still cares about Jamie. And possibly vice versa.

Also, based on Jaime's POVs in this book, he's more likely to kill her than Tryion. Most likely Tryion has moved on to better things and given up on his family completely (killing your dad usually implies that sort of thing.)

Jamie may have killed her already. . . not directly but the throwing of the note into the fire may be a death warrant. Like I said, don't think Kevan would go back for her (he might for Tommen - who I kind of feel bad for right now). We know Tyrion won't go back for her. Jamie has said he doesn't much give a shit with this.

[Incendiary Lemon]

Jamie may have killed her already. . . not directly but the throwing of the note into the fire may be a death warrant.

That was my assumption.

[Bob]

On Jon's heritage, don't also forget that Eddard found his sister in a 'bed of blood,' as I've said before. And the only reason the Kingsguard would have been there instead of on the Trident was to protect one of royal blood. I doubt they would have stayed if it was only Lyanna there and left Rhaegar to go fight the battle for the realm with only one or two others.

On the same note, my wife pointed out a section of the book with someone having a vision of the tombs with Eddard and Lyanna there talking and Lyanna was going on about Eddard's promise to her. They never mention what the promise is. I can think of only one thing that makes sense. "Promise me you'll protect my child."

Jon as Rhaegar and Lyanna's son makes complete sense. I'm pretty much convinced.

1. Rhaegar and Lyanna have coupled. We know that, it's mentioned as rape, but we know it happened.

2. Eddard's character seems to go against the thought of infedelity.

3. However, Eddard's character is right in line with solemn oaths to family members.

4. Eddard tells somone that Jon is his blood, and thats all that matters.

5. Eddard would have to keep Jon close and treat him as his own son, because if Robert Baratheon ever suspected who Jon was he'd kill him immediately.

6. Kelric's "pool of blood" thing. Lyanna just gave birth. Makes sense.

7. The timing. Seems like there just isn't enough time involved for Eddard impregnate Catelyn, go off to war, impregnate unamed hussy, hussy giving birth 9 months later, and Eddard taking baby.

8. Eddard has always been very defensive when people ask about Jon. The other characters all assume that this is either because he's trying to protect his illicit lady love, or he's embarrased by his "fall from grace." Makes more sense for Eddard to be defensive because the secret MUST be kept to keep his death-bed promise to Lyanna.

9. It's stated that Jon looks more "Stark" then Rob et al who look "Tully." Makes sense if Jon is Lyanna Stark's son.

[Incendiary Lemon]

Makes more sense for Eddard to be defensive because the secret MUST be kept to keep his death-bed promise to Lyanna.

There are a number of people who would have Jon killed if his lineage was known.

[Peacedog]

There are a number of people who would have Jon killed if his lineage was known.

My last count had the number in the hundreds of thousands.

[SuperHiro]

I'm not buying the arguements that Cersei is dieing. If anything, Jamie tossing the letter on the fire all but guarantees when FrankenGregor will make his debut.

[Peacedog]

I'm not buying the arguements that Cersei is dieing.

She might not die now (lasting through the end of the books is another matter entirely). That said, Frankengregor making his debut is a complicated matter. Getting around the law isn't necessarily the end of the world. Too bad for her, she's left Tommen with a bunch of inept people, so it may not be possible to make that happen. However, there's something I'm not sure you are considering (I'll come to that in a second).

If she asked for FG as her champion, she could easily get refused by the CHS (basis is law; truth be told I was surprised to hear that the Kingsguard *have* to represent the royal family. I would have believed you still had a regular list of options available, so there may well be pending developments on that front); it's unclear how he'll handle things like this at this time, but this seems a reasonable possibility. I'm not sure he'll take well to the presence of FG though. So that may not be an option at all (champion terminated due to abomination probably doesn't happen alot in trials by combat, but there's a first time for everything!).

It isn't like Tommen has no cards to play either, so getting her back some other way is not out of the question. However if she is formerly accused of one of the Big No-Nos(tm), it means there's got to be one of two things: trial (which she likely loses - again see below) or escape. In any case, I'll restate that Tommen is surrounded by incompetents, and people who hate Cersei. If the Tyrells feel like they have a use for her, they will likely make every effort tosee that she wins her trial. If not. . .well they can sure appear to make a great effort and appear to make a great effort and then console Tommen.

Escape requires the right help. I'm not sure if ti will be available or not.

The really interesting question here is what CHS knows. If he knows about Jamie. . .Cersei is probably utterly screwed since that's a sin in every religion in Westeros, though he still has to be careful with the accusation (he's not immune to politics). And I find it unlikely he can *know*, so we're back to a potential accusation.

Her'es the thing (to wander back into what I hinted at above). In the books, there have been a handful of of Trials by Combat.

Every one has had the "correct" outcome.

1) Bronn - representing an accused Tyrion - beats the Arryn champion. Tyrion is free to go - and he *wasn't* involved in the attempt on Jon's life.

2) The Hound -representing an accused Hound - beats the fifth Dondarain. Free to go - and he wasn't guilty of what they charged him with there.

3) Oberyn Martel - representing an accused Tyrion (nasty luck, that) - loses to The Mountain the Rides. Tyrion, in the case, appears to be guilty as sin, by his own admission.

That's 3 cases from the actual series ( I will ignore the Hedge Knight books because I don't want to spoil anything for anyone, but the evidence isn't going to hurt me).

There are legitimate reasons why those outcomes came to be. Bronn is an accompished warrior, and cunning. The Hound is very much an accomplished warrior, and while so is Dondarrion he draws on something on the verge of defeat (few people truly fear something the way he fears fire). The Mountain is freaking 8 feet tall and built like an Oak Tree. One slip up there is sure to mean doom - and Oberyn slipped up by getting cocky at the end.

But IMO it is no mere coincidence or matter of prowess/experience/luck winning out either. The *right* outcome occured in each case (the side story to #3 - that of the Elia stuff - also makes for an interesting side discussion but I've never been able to fully settle into a position of it).

I have a hard time believing that the *right* outcome wouldn't take place here. *If* the accusation is incest, Cersei is guilty as shit. And I'm guessing. . . dead as fried chicken. I'm not sayin every trial by combat works out like that in the hiustory of Westeros. But I'll wager the big ones do. And this happens to be a time when the Gods appear to be taking a greater hand in mortal affairs.

Now, the accusation might not be that, unless I'm misremembering that it is garunteed to be (my kingdom for AFFC, I'd like to glance back over a couple of chapters but can't right now; alas I am stuck at work).

[SpaceLord]

Kinda sucks that Oberyn Martel died. He seemed like he had potential.

[godhugh]

Wait, Tyrion wasn't guilty. Lady Ollena and Littlefinger orchestrated the death of Joffrey. Tyrion even wonders why he told Jamie that he did kill Joffrey after he escapes.

[Remus West]

From his own mouth or not I am not sure that I believe Tyrion offed Joff. Having him state it right out like that seems a little to open for this series and is more likely to prove to be a case of wanting to vent his anger and lash out at those around him.

[godhugh]

From his own mouth or not I am not sure that I believe Tyrion offed Joff. Having him state it right out like that seems a little to open for this series and is more likely to prove to be a case of wanting to vent his anger and lash out at those around him.

Yeah, I saw it as him trying to hurt Jamie, not an actual admission of guilt.

[Peacedog]

Wait, Tyrion wasn't guilty. Lady Ollena and Littlefinger orchestrated the death of Joffrey. Tyrion even wonders why he told Jamie that he did kill Joffrey after he escapes.

It's true that we don't know for sure (Remus, I've gone back and forth on it myself), and I am working on the assumpetion he did until I get better evidence (it seemed futile, to me, to do otherwise after much thought on the issue). His saying it to wound Jamie would be very much in character. And he was trying to wound Jamie, regardless of whether or not it was true.

However, Tyrion's wonderings later were not a clear "hah, I didn't really do it", as I recall (I wish I had the book with me so we could look at the actual text; I never intepreted it that way though I remember sending Joel a pretty complicated email about this immediately after I got through that part). Littlefinger never ruled out Tyrion's involvement either to the best of my memory. Only specifically elaborated on the involvement of, and initiation by, other parties (himself included).

Part of what I've alluded to above with #3 in the other post is because a case can be made for innocene for Tyrion. Oberyn may or may not have tainted the proceedings by using Poison (regardless of anything else) - clearly a violation of what is supposed to be a sacred covenant. An arguable implication is that the trial was really about or partly about Elia (it was arguably so in the hearts of both contestants), that the Mountain was ultimately found guilty as shown by his death (if a shady one it was), but true justice is focused on the man who gave the order (Tywin; who ended up getting his anyway).

Sandor's "trial" with Beric could have been a precendent (if a weird one), for a "dual" contest - since he was accused of a bunch of false stuff but then a true one by Arya (though that's never formally stated as a charge as I recall; she offers it but nobody seems much concerned with it). But I it does make you wonder about the "formalness" being an issue.

In any case, Tyrion's trial remains one of the most interesting points of the series. And definately a potential departure from a pattern it would seem Martin has deliberately established.

Having him state it right out like that seems a little to open for this series

I would contest that point. We get a good deal of information openly, even if information is often shrouded in mystery and remains so for some time. Or was Littlefinger not bieng open when he discussed details with Sansa (to use one example)? Emotion was driving Tyrion's words (again, whether they were true or not).

[Remus West]

We get information openly, but it doesn't seem as though the characters do as would be the case here. Littlefinger's elaborations give us information, and Sansa, but none of the power players in this instance. Sansa may become a player at some point so her having this information may bite Littlefinger in the ass, but right now she is a pawn, so this mostly just showed us how powerful and influencial Peter is and makes us (well, me anyway) ponder what else he was a part of. For instance he clearly has an interest in Catlyn now passed on to Sansa so did he orchistrate Ned's fall? What else has he done behind the scenes? Tyrion confessing to Joff's father who has to be considered a power player just seems like to much info directly.

[Jag]

Jon as Rhaegar and Lyanna's son makes complete sense. I'm pretty much convinced.

::snip::

Wow, you and Sepiche make a very very compelling argument. I'm convinced as well. I never considered that Jon was a Targaryen. I always figured he was the Ice and Danny was the fire, so a marriage was possible (especially since the Targ's had no problem with incest). We do know Danny won't have any more children, so i'm curious how that will be handled as well.

[Kelric]

For instance he clearly has an interest in Catlyn now passed on to Sansa so did he orchistrate Ned's fall?

He was supposed to buy the Goldcloaks and get them to support Ned, but he turned on him.

Bob's #9 comment about Jon Snow - Don't forget also that they say Arya looked more Stark than Tully, and that she looked and acted a lot like Lyanna once did. Jon always got along well with Arya. Plus the flower growing in the wall of ice and etc., etc., etc. all of which I've tried to cover before.

[Peacedog]

We get information openly, but it doesn't seem as though the characters do as would be the case here.

Everyone agrees Tyrion was speaking in the heat of passion. A reasonable time for him to do something that may well be out of character (though he's no stranger to hurting people if given cause). As I've said before, I readily conceded he might be innocent. However, I don't think the argument that "we don't get information this way" is compelling or accurate, even though we often don't get information that way. Of course, it's also true that sometimes something seems trivial, or of lesser importance from the point of view of who ever is speaking/listening, but it's gold to us.

Littlefinger's elaborations give us information, and Sansa, but none of the power players in this instance.

Not following you here. Littlefinger gives us two power players correct? Highgarden and himself.

Sansa may become a player at some point so her having this information may bite Littlefinger in the ass, but right now she is a pawn, so this mostly just showed us how powerful and influencial Peter is and makes us (well, me anyway) ponder what else he was a part of.

I don't think there is much to ponder. Peter wants the Iron Throne. It's a guess at this point I'll grant you. But he is devious and clearly ambitious. And he has a chip on his shoulder (though he hides it well for the most part). I think his goal is nothing more than all of Westeros. And not for anybody else but him. He'll help meanuver anyone else into position in the short term if he thinks it benefits him in the long term.

There was that great bit in one of the later Sansa/Alayne chapters where he notes that he expected to have to wait several (was it 4-5?) years before he can really begin his next power play, but that Cersei's bumbling has sped everything up. And that while he'd prefer to wait (there is no doubt he's an incredibly patient man, but also a very calculating one), he seems gleeful about it thanks to how inept Cersei has been.

For instance he clearly has an interest in Catlyn now passed on to Sansa so did he orchistrate Ned's fall?

Yes. As Kelric notes, we *know* this. Ned's fall was a multi-front affair.

1) He thought he had the Gold Cloaks in pocket but they were in Littlefinger's pocket, and so they went where Littlefinger felt they were most beneficial. Stannis on the throne was *not* good for business. So it wasn't with Ned. He tells Ned up front that he'll likely betray him in the end, and then he does just that.

2) Even still, if Renly stays things might go differently. As it turns out, the only people wanting to put Stannis on the throne were Ned and Ned (well, and Stannis was agreable).

What else has he done behind the scenes?

Generally, anything and everything that benefits his own march to the throne I'd argue. HGe did a great job running books. He's increased his own holdings tremendously, but the crown had debts in bad places. He probably helped see to that.

Tyrion confessing to Joff's father who has to be considered a power player just seems like to much info directly.

A power player for what? He's a major figure, I agree. I don't understand what makes this info "direct" and something else indirect, just because it wasn't explicitly said to someone it directly involves. It's no more/less direct than what Littlefinger tells Sansa as near as I can tell.

Again, I readily grant Tyrion may well be innocent.

[Peacedog]

IIRC, Rob and Arya were the clear Starks. Sansa and Bran are the clear Tully's. Rickon is a Stark I believe. It's a nice offset to see (and certainly one we'd expect to some degree) since all of the Lannister kids are the exact same - all Lannister. Ewww!

all of which I've tried to cover before.

You and a zillion other people. Alot of this stuff, most especially the subject of Jon's parentage, has been done ad nauseum. In part because there's always someone new to the discussion I suppose. Maybe we should do an OO faq at some point.

[Kelric]

Again, I readily grant Tyrion may well be innocent.

I think it was the old Highflower matriarch and Littlefinger who put it together. She asked Sansa for everything bad Joffrey had done to her, Littlefinger hired Dontos to give Sansa the hair net and help her escape, the Highflower woman 'adjusted' Sansa's hair net for which she later discovered a 'gem' was missing and there were one or two more things that I can't remember right now that point to the Highflower matriarch being the poisoner. She obviously didn't want her granddaughter married to a spoiled beast like Joffrey and Littlefinger would have leapt at an opportunity to knock off yet another king and get Sansa away in the confusion.

Edit - Ubb.

[Peacedog]

We do know Danny won't have any more children, so i'm curious how that will be handled as well.

FWIW, I'm not expecting that to change but it's not impossible that it will.

Having said that, it means that if Jon isn't Targaryen, and there isn't a change, the house is done. As a consolation, that would make them our grand prize winner in the sweepstakes. I'm not sure what we'd do if there was nobody around to collect. . .

But, she's probably not the only one out there.

My only other comment will be that while the Targaryens were no stranger to incest, I'm not sure it's been beneficial to them (surely at some point, an actual Targaryen with a clue is going to reckon this. But it's certainly possible someone like Balor the Blessed did). Those days are likely over no matter what else happens (and if they aren't, I hope Dany & whoever else suffers for it, much as I like the character).

[Peacedog]

I think it was the old Highflower matriarch and Littlefinger who put it together. She asked Sansa for everything bad Joffrey had done to her, Littlefinger hired Dontos to give Sansa the hair net and help her escape, the Highflower woman 'adjusted' Sansa's hair net for which she later discovered a 'gem' was missing and there were one or two more things that I can't remember right now that point to the Highflower matriarch being the poisoner. She obviously didn't want her granddaughter married to a spoiled beast like Joffrey and Littlefinger would have leapt at an opportunity to knock off yet another king and get Sansa away in the confusion.

I don't think there's any question they initiated it (never mind the actual execution of the deed, though she was obviously involved there; if nothing else she supplied the mechanism). It was their baby. Cruelly planed out.

I tend to agree that it was, at least on Highgarden's part, as much a "we can't allow our baby to be with this monster" as a naked power play (not so for littlefinger, nod).

If Tyrion really is guilty (in the sense that his admission is 100% correct), he was party to a plan that was already in the works. He just happened to be one of the final pieces to the puzzle.

Fancydirt and I were just wondering outloud over IM if he knew but just didn't say anything. Not knew as in, "aware of the plan and how it would go down", but suspected something was up at dinner. And then neglected to act to stop it (and wisely dumped his wine because he knew exactly what was happening). That's probably a really long shot, but an interesting scenario (well, I delight at the idea that he might suspect something but not act to stop it, anyway).

The mind positively boggles.

[Kelric]

IIRC, Rob and Arya were the clear Starks. Sansa and Bran are the clear Tully's. Rickon is a Stark I believe. It's a nice offset to see (and certainly one we'd expect to some degree) since all of the Lannister kids are the exact same - all Lannister. Ewww!

all of which I've tried to cover before.

You and a zillion other people. Alot of this stuff, most especially the subject of Jon's parentage, has been done ad nauseum. In part because there's always someone new to the discussion I suppose. Maybe we should do an OO faq at some point.

It's like the Quinn discussions, you have to rehash everything when someone new shows up.

We do know Danny won't have any more children, so i'm curious how that will be handled as well.

FWIW, I'm not expecting that to change but it's not impossible that it will.

Having said that, it means that if Jon isn't Targaryen, and there isn't a change, the house is done. As a consolation, that would make them our grand prize winner in the sweepstakes. I'm not sure what we'd do if there was nobody around to collect. . .

But, she's probably not the only one out there.

My only other comment will be that while the Targaryens were no stranger to incest, I'm not sure it's been beneficial to them (surely at some point, an actual Targaryen with a clue is going to reckon this. But it's certainly possible someone like Balor the Blessed did). Those days are likely over no matter what else happens (and if they aren't, I hope Dany & whoever else suffers for it, much as I like the character).

It wouldn't surprise me if Dany finds out that the maegi woman was wrong about her being infertile. There has to be another woman Targaryen out there IMO or else the whole damn story falls apart. Having the line end with Jon/Dany (or does Dany just rule and Jon's eventual offspring (if he has any) with another woman take over once Dany and he/whomever is the 3rd head die?) would suck. Though there is nothing that I can recall that says the three heads of the dragon has to be two guys and a woman. The original Conqueror had two sisters IIRC. So if they find another Targaryen woman, they'll be fine. Though I'd feel bad for Dany.

[Kelric]

Fancydirt and I were just wondering outloud over IM if he knew but just didn't say anything. Not knew as in, "aware of the plan and how it would go down", but suspected something was up at dinner. And then neglected to act to stop it (and wisely dumped his wine because he knew exactly what was happening). That's probably a really long shot, but an interesting scenario (well, I delight at the idea that he might suspect something but not act to stop it, anyway).

The mind positively boggles.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least if he had some suspicions yet failed to stop it. He's smart enough to have figured it out. Though was it his wine or the last of Joffrey's wine that he poured out? I want to say it was the rest of Joff's.

[Peacedog]

Dammit folks, I have work to do. BBL.

[Peacedog]

Has anyone here read anything concerning the AGoT pnp RPG? Specifically regarding whether information in it is to be considered cannon or not?

[fancydirt]

IIRC, Rob and Arya were the clear Starks. Sansa and Bran are the clear Tully's. Rickon is a Stark I believe. It's a nice offset to see (and certainly one we'd expect to some degree) since all of the Lannister kids are the exact same - all Lannister. Ewww!

all of which I've tried to cover before.

You and a zillion other people. Alot of this stuff, most especially the subject of Jon's parentage, has been done ad nauseum. In part because there's always someone new to the discussion I suppose. Maybe we should do an OO faq at some point.

It's like the Quinn discussions, you have to rehash everything when someone new shows up.

Except that when people have provided links detailing every reference on every angle of the debate everytime it's been brought up for years it gets tiring to see the thread trail off in that direction when there's newer things to talk about.

The biggest caveat I have with believing that Tyrion was the one who killed Joff is that it happened in a chapter form Tyrion's perspective and the only thing he thought/did in the whole scene that implied he had any knowledge of what was going on was "knowingly" emptying the remntants of what was in the chalice. If Tyrion were planning on killing Joff or knew what the kid has coming in his near future he would have had some very specific retorts to what was going on at the very least in his head if not spoken outloud (which he may have done if he already knew he was damning himself by doing such a public poisoning). Tyrion also had so many other outlets at his disposal to get it taken care of safely and quietly.

As PD mentioned, I think it's possible that Tyrion knew that people had something in the works, though he probably wasn't fully aware of who all was invloved or what they had planned, but put it together as it all unfolded in front of him and did his best to get rid of the evidence (that he knew would point to him) and just hope he wouldn't take the fall as was most likely intended.

Immediately after Tyrion tells Jaime we are also treated to... "Tyrion watched him go, striding on his long strong legs, and part of him wanted to call out, to tell him that it wasn't true, to beg his forgiveness. But then he thought of Tysha, and he held his silence." Tyrion would never do anything to hurt Jaime, and had nothing to lash back with on the level of the betrayal his brother and father did to him with his first wife. Seems pretty cut and dry that the words were meant to hurt Jaime but were not an admission of guilt to what really happened.

[fancydirt]

Has anyone here read anything concerning the AGoT pnp RPG? Specifically regarding whether information in it is to be considered cannon or not?

"We spared no expense in its creation and worked closely with George to ensure accuracy and authenticity, adding additional background information from his personal notes when appropriate. Every fan of 'A Song of Ice and Fire' will want this gorgeous tome adorning his shelf." - From the guys who made the game.

"• Every fan of George R. R. Martin will want this comprehensive encyclopedia of his beloved series — even if they aren’t gamers." - from a bulleted list of "features"

[craterus]

Has anyone here read anything concerning the AGoT pnp RPG? Specifically regarding whether information in it is to be considered cannon or not?

"We spared no expense in its creation and worked closely with George to ensure accuracy and authenticity, adding additional background information from his personal notes when appropriate. Every fan of 'A Song of Ice and Fire' will want this gorgeous tome adorning his shelf." - From the guys who made the game.

"• Every fan of George R. R. Martin will want this comprehensive encyclopedia of his beloved series — even if they aren’t gamers." - from a bulleted list of "features"

I flipped through a copy at B&N... it looked cool and I would have bought it for the map (poster), BUT

when I looked at the price... my eyes almost popped out of the sockets

[Remus West]

Tyrion confessing to Joff's father who has to be considered a power player just seems like to much info directly.

A power player for what? He's a major figure, I agree. I don't understand what makes this info "direct" and something else indirect, just because it wasn't explicitly said to someone it directly involves. It's no more/less direct than what Littlefinger tells Sansa as near as I can tell.

Again, I readily grant Tyrion may well be innocent.

Jamie handle the siege of Riverrun well enough and has enough of a legend around him that people will follow him where he decides to go. That, to me, makes him a power as he is starting to make his own decisions about the how in what he does. I don't claim he is a major power yet, but it won't surprise me to see his influence grow steadily.

As for the direct info thing, I think I am stating what I mean very clumisly and have yet to think of a better way to say it. Will post a better way when I can. Heck, maybe I'll motivate to look through the books to find some examples (of course, I tend to be lazy on that type of thing, so I'm doubting it).

[fancydirt]

Kingslayer. That's what everyone knows Jaime as. Yes, he was a famous knight, and people would rather fight alongside him than against him, but when it comes to politics and actually playing the game the general concensus is dude has shit for honor and is nothing without a sword to force his message. It could be argued that in trying to right his past wrongs and live the rest of his life doing deeds that he'd be proud to have listed in the King's Guard book he might be able to turn things around to the point where he will be considered a major player. Currently, he has to put an exceedingly large amount of work into winning people over to the point where they might actually respect him. Word of him and Cersei leeking out won't help that sitation any.

I have no doubt we'll see him do some very good things as the story progresses, but he'll be doing them as a piece and not a player for a long, long time.

[JonathanStrange]

Someone may have already mentioned this book (so excuse me) but The Art of G.R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice And Fire http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/158994 ... oding=UTF8 which is a truly interesting collection of artwork illustrating the characters and scenes of the series. It's the work of many different artists and you may recognize a lot of it is from the role playing game. A good hardcover book, only $20, and I think a worthwhile addition for those who've invested their time in the series. It was a great Christmas present. Just FYI.

[Remus West]

Kingslayer. That's what everyone knows Jaime as. Yes, he was a famous knight, and people would rather fight alongside him than against him, but when it comes to politics and actually playing the game the general concensus is dude has shit for honor and is nothing without a sword to force his message. It could be argued that in trying to right his past wrongs and live the rest of his life doing deeds that he'd be proud to have listed in the King's Guard book he might be able to turn things around to the point where he will be considered a major player. Currently, he has to put an exceedingly large amount of work into winning people over to the point where they might actually respect him. Word of him and Cersei leeking out won't help that sitation any.

I have no doubt we'll see him do some very good things as the story progresses, but he'll be doing them as a piece and not a player for a long, long time.

You don't think that being the Lanister that can command the troops of Casterly Rock and the Lanister bannermen will give him some power? I don't see many people doing things because they like or respect the one commanding it done, rather they do it to avoid the alternative or to suck up. I'm not saying people are going to like Jaime, just obey him.

[Zaxxon]

I'm still (yes, still) making my way through this book. Nearing the end (page 620 or so), and I have to say it's sure picking up.

-Doran Martell turning out to be quite the plotter
-Littlefinger doing what I had hoped but sure wasn't expecting him to do
-Brienne is still alive!

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet; hopefully I'll be back in by the weekend...

[Montag]

Peytr does not want the throne. He knows he cannot have it and that it would get him killed. He will continue to work in the shadows where he thrives and gets his thrills. He has moved up and the world, but he will still be the wizard behind the curtain.