GG mentioned at another site.

snoleopard · Post by **snoleopard** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:24 pm

Perhaps I shouldn't even mention this here, and mods, if it's tasteless, feel free to delete, but I got a very large laugh at the Avault forums, in the PC games there 'was' a discussion of GG closing. DS showed up, along with his banning letter from the mods, and him and his old nemisis got into it again. The thread was locked. Most other people agreed with the banning after reading DS's letter, and reading his posts after awhile.

Most of the people there were very sad to hear about GG though.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:30 pm

Yeah, it got a mention on Blues News as well.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:31 pm

No mention of this site?

snoleopard · Post by **snoleopard** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:37 pm

I would have mentioned it in that thread, but the thread was locked. I haven't been in the forums there for quite a while, and don't know what the CoC is about linking to another forum. I'll go read up on it though.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:46 pm

snoleopard wrote:I would have mentioned it in that thread, but the thread was locked. I haven't been in the forums there for quite a while, and don't know what the CoC is about linking to another forum. I'll go read up on it though.

Not asking you to pimp us, I was just curious. I go to avault fairly often, (except this week) just usually lurk.

The Meal · Post by **The Meal** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:49 pm

This thread, (if it was the pissing match between Dr. Smart and our very own RM9) was linked from CG a few days ago, so I believe I saw it linked from there. There's nothing unkosher about directly linking to it from here, assuming this isn't going to be your only post on the forum and that you're not one of The Powers That Be regarding Avault (in which case a direct link *would* be unkosher due to our no-pimping stance).

~Neal

snoleopard · Post by **snoleopard** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:02 pm

Thanks Meal. No, this wouldn't be my only post here, and I'm sure not one of the 'powers that be' at Avault. I visited those forums today because they were mentioned at CG. This is my new online home now, since GG is gone.

I did decide that it wasn't my place to link to here though, or tell anyone where we are. I would just feel rude doing that at someone elses site, but that's just me. If someone asked me where most of us were, that would be different.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:12 pm

snoleopard wrote:Thanks Meal. No, this wouldn't be my only post here, and I'm sure not one of the 'powers that be' at Avault. I visited those forums today because they were mentioned at CG. This is my new online home now, since GG is gone.

I did decide that it wasn't my place to link to here though, or tell anyone where we are. I would just feel rude doing that at someone elses site, but that's just me. If someone asked me where most of us were, that would be different.

OK, then pipe down and get over here behind the trees with the rest of us, and remember I got my eyes on you!

snoleopard · Post by **snoleopard** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:18 pm

K...going back into lurker mode.

The Meal · Post by **The Meal** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:19 pm

snoleopard wrote:I did decide that it wasn't my place to link to here though, or tell anyone where we are. I would just feel rude doing that at someone elses site, but that's just me. If someone asked me where most of us were, that would be different.

I 100% agree with this. I've got no problem letting folks know that some folks associated with the GGF (*all* the mods/admins associated with the GGF?) have a new online project in the works, but I'm not linking to it unless directly asked. Seems the respectful thing to do.

Great to have you here by the way. Go Red Wings! Ugh.

~Neal

Eel Snave · Post by **Eel Snave** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:23 pm

OMG, I couldn't keep reading. Derek Smart makes me want to punch him in the face very, very hard with brass knuckles. I have never seen a more conceited person in my entire life.

snoleopard · Post by **snoleopard** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:37 pm

Out of lurker mode for a couple of seconds....Couldn't agree more Eel Snave, he always had that effect on me.

And Meal, even with no hockey

, I'm still a die hard Red Wings fan.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:52 am

I would just like to say that I am *NOT* the nemesis of that clown.

That was only the second time I've ever conversed with him, and the first time was a quick, pleasant convo where we traded book reviews on various game programming books.

But his stance pissed me off. Although I wasn't the one that got that thread locked. That was someone else that came charging in at the very end.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:00 am

Every time I go out and don't see a Wings game on, I am very sad.

Someone has to break this lockout thing. It's killing me to not relax to a game after work or have an exuse to head out to the bar and just watch the game. I am slowly getting into football, but if just lacks the magic.

I also thought about putting out a beacon and came to the conclusion that it seems so much in poor taste that it just shouldn't be done. I am however very happy to look around and see so many people find y'all (us?) already. I have seen a lot of hellos from people I have not seen post in ages and that just gives me a friendly reunion feel even if many go back into quiet mode.

Napoleon · Post by **Napoleon** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:05 am

Good job, RM.

The guy clearly has problems, unless it's all a big theatre show he's putting up.

Anyway, I've never been completely fond of the banning policies both when I was still a mod and after that (after all, I also got banned for a couple of days once

) but banning Derek was definitely justified.
The pity is, that he IS capable of intelligent, and as you said RM, cordial discourse. It's just that it's very, very rare. In fact, waaaay back in a thread on the planetcrap.com, he had a beef with Rich at one point, we engaged in a discussion, and he actually ended up ceding my points to me. So he IS capable of it. Just not regularly.

Ken could've made clearer in his email that Derek's banning was the result of cumulative actions by him, but then again, why would he? He and Derek had been exchanging mails in the past already. And Derek had been on that nice 6 month temp ban as well. Of course, Derek doesn't mention much about that.

tals · Post by **tals** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:00 am

I was involved in the thread on avault, ultimately that and a few other posts made me decide i'd had enough of the avault forums for whatever reason I no longer feel comfortable in their.

Regarding the DS post, I think a number of us and I include myself in that have a tendancy to attack DS not his thoughts which tends to then lead to the arguments.

DS does tend to lend himself to this, however at the same time he has some good contributions to make. It is a shame we can't just wipe the slate clean and start again on this one.

Tals

setaside · Post by **setaside** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:02 am

I found it funny in that thread that I was lumped in with the other "stalkers". I've never harrassed Derek in my life.

tals · Post by **tals** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:15 am

Their is no argument that DS does get picked on and the final post which locked the thread down was good evidence of that.

However his initial stance is to lump any argument as a group, luckily we are all individuals and react differently

Tals

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:54 am

tals wrote:Their is no argument that DS does get picked on and the final post which locked the thread down was good evidence of that.

However his initial stance is to lump any argument as a group, luckily we are all individuals and react differently

Tals

Derek deserves every attack he gets, including the stalker attacks that follow him around and seem to come out of the blue. Just because he hasn't displayed any anti-social behaviour on a particular forum doesn't mean he hasn't gone crazy with the personal attacks and lies everywhere else.

It was a dark day when he showed up at GG, and I actually physically cringed at this encroachment of my internet haven. I really feared the worst. I personally found him more of a detriment to the community than other bannee's such as Kahless and others. Tacking that PhD on the end is such an insult to people who have worked hard, spent time, energy and money to legitimately gain the right to use those letters that it really pisses me off. It's a pretty good indicator of his ego and conceit though.

I would have no problems with total strangers kicking him in the nuts at random on the street until he changes his ways.

If this is truly his normal behaviour, than he needs help. If this is some act to gain attention or keep the spotlight on himself, then he's even more in need of help.

Phew. Sorry.

I'm done

setaside · Post by **setaside** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:34 am

Derek deserves every attack he gets, including the stalker attacks that follow him around and seem to come out of the blue.

Derek may or may not deserve his stalkers, but the communities that are affected by them sure don't.

I've noticed ... for the most part and with obvious exceptions ... that Derek when he's not being provoked can be incredibly insightful and helpful. Ultimately it doesn't mean anything because he has more than a few episodes where he just lashes out at random people who have said something he either misinterpreted or just plain didn't like.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:04 am

setaside wrote:
Derek deserves every attack he gets, including the stalker attacks that follow him around and seem to come out of the blue.
Derek may or may not deserve his stalkers, but the communities that are affected by them sure don't.

I've noticed ... for the most part and with obvious exceptions ... that Derek when he's not being provoked can be incredibly insightful and helpful. Ultimately it doesn't mean anything because he has more than a few episodes where he just lashes out at random people who have said something he either misinterpreted or just plain didn't like.

and I enjoy his games and find his posts that aren't arguing with someone great reads.

That being said it doesn't feel right discussing him in his absence. Not that I'm suggesting that he be allowed back. It just doesn't feel right to me.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:20 am

I doubt he'd want to come here. Given his high opinion of the forum staff.

tals · Post by **tals** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:22 am

If he did request, I still think he should be given a clean slate and go from there. This is afterall a new beginning from anyone. Ultimately as MOds its you who get the flack so its your call.

As you say its unlikely he would - I have no doubt he is reading the thread though

Tals

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:53 am

I had never heard of DS until he joined GG a couple of years ago. I then judged him fresh from what he wrote. I was then able to understand the animosity towards him.
BTW good job RM9!

The Meal · Post by **The Meal** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:27 am

Rip wrote:That being said it doesn't feel right discussing him in his absence. Not that I'm suggesting that he be allowed back. It just doesn't feel right to me.

If we were talking about Edan behind his back like this, then I'd agree with you. But to me, on a gaming site, Derek Smart qualifies as a public figure. His ego qualifies as a second public figure, and his narcissism would qualify as a small (public) community. I think that discussing any of those entities is every bit as valid as talking about Willie Nelson in his absense. Not that I'm equating Derek Smart to Willie Nelson, mind you.

SuperHiro? You out there? I want a debate with Willie Nelson put in the hopper, stat!

Derek appears to post with a mood-randomizer enabled. Sometimes he's as intelligent and as rational as all get out. Other times he's a fiesty little bugger who comes out swinging. He'll claim that he only gives what he gets, but folks capable of making their own observations and not just repeating the observations made by others are quite likely to come to a separate conclusion on that matter.

It *was* his fiestiness that eventually got him unvited to the GG forums, but in a roundabout way. Fiestiness on rare occassions generally gets you warnings on our forums. "Hey don't act like that on these boards, it's not acceptable." Defending your actions with "But the other guy did it first so I'm just reacting in kind," absolutely does not fly. We bend over backwards to give folks the benefit of the doubt, but after repeated examples of folks not understanding what our warnings mean, they do eventually get the gate.

There are more than a few people who claim that we gave Derek more than his fair share of warnings before he finally got banned. There is a slice to that story that I think they miss out on, however, and it's something that has been mentioned obliquely a few times. But basically what it boils down to is the folks who *would* actively try to goad Derek tied our hands with regards to his banning. We felt as if we had to give him even more chances because some of the times he'd fly off into nonlinearland he would be goaded into it. The debate raged whether he should be held as accountable for his goaded off-the-handle behavior as for his random off-the-handle behavior, and as such those people who were trying to get him banned were responsible for him staying on the boards for much longer than if they'd have just let the situation develop on its own.

Frustrating for all involved, to be sure. But I'm extremely proud of how our staff handled the situation.

And Nappy, your "shortest banning in the history of Gone Gold" was the direct result of a misinterpretation of something you said. I'm sure you'll be the first to admit that your own behavior and commentary about the staff you used to be associated with isn't done with the hopes of engendering a positive atmosphere with your former collegues, so that sort of misinterpretation should come as a super-huge surprise. Still it was a mistake on our part and one that took a bit of time to clear up. Hopefully now you look back on it and smile (and just as hopefully we look back on it and get a little bit of that embarassment feeling). It's funny because one of the characteristics of your misplaced temp-ban was quick decisive action by one of our Admins, which is a frequent complaint of yours over the ensuing months and years.

~Neal

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:36 am

Before the web came along, I spent a lot of time on alt.rec.games.ibm.pc.strategy (or whatever it was), where posts by and about DS and his BC3k game took up at least half of the bandwidth. After I figured out how to filter those posts out, my daily download dropped from 400 messages to about 150, and the group became manageable. I wasn't interested in him or his game, just glad to ignore him. I knew DS as the guy who clogged up Usenet.

When he came to GG, I found him much more reasonable and thoughtful than expected. I never had a problem with his posts there. People attacked him frequently, and he defended himself vigorously. Now, I'd rather not read that at all, but I don't fault him for it.

Ranulf · Post by **Ranulf** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:14 pm

I first came across DS on usenet as well. In comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic and .space-sim. My only thought when he showed up on the gonegold forums was "oh, shit. There go the forums." His presence usually just creates animosity. Its best to ignore them.

Oh, and a link to the avault thread: http://forums.avault.com/cgi-bin/ultima ... 006#000007

tals · Post by **tals** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:07 pm

As I say I was pretty much involved in that thread. After DS's initial comment against me I was literally fuming, however I had a ponder and thought I had actually attacked him. Apologised and DS was magnaminous in how he handled it.

We tend to forget that text has no emotions and as a result even the smallest comment can inflame.

Anyway personally I am for DS being able to join and being under exactly the same rules as everyone else. That means if people attack (or goad!) him then they get banned. I'm not sure I quite understan dthe meal, it appears to indicate that banning DS was the lesser of two evils. In which case DS was on the money in his posting and GG did not make the right call IMHO.

May be my misinterpretation though.

Tals

p.s I was also in the strategic and space groups so saw posts made in their. In particular with regard to the Startegic group I disliked the cliqueness atmosphere in there i'm glad I moved on. When I left it it was long after DS had left so no blame on the group could be laid at DS. Space Sims area I still miss

Post by **ImLawBoy** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:42 pm

Originally posted by tals:
I'm not sure I quite understan dthe meal, it appears to indicate that banning DS was the lesser of two evils. In which case DS was on the money in his posting and GG did not make the right call IMHO.

May be my misinterpretation though.

I believe you misinterpreted. He was banned for repeated violations of the Code of Conduct and a demonstrated inability to conform his posting styles to fit within the Code of Conduct on a long-term basis. It was not a lesser-of-two-evils situation, as there were bannings on both sides of the equations. DS only managed to stick around longer than some others because he usually didn't go as far over the edge as them, and he would usually give us a short-term improvement after we warned him/asked him to cool it. Eventually, those short-term improvements were not enough to convince us that he should stick around.

There are plenty who think we acted way too slowly in dealing with DS, and there plenty who can't understand what he did to get banned. Ultimately, I'm fine with not being able to get everyone to agree with how we handled things - I'd go nuts if I tried to go that route.

snoleopard · Post by **snoleopard** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:59 pm

Sorry about the nemisis comment RM9, I just remember partially reading a thread at GG with you and DS going at it. My bad there, but I never thought you were in the wrong on either forums. I thought you and tals did a good job at Avault though, I thought you both gave as good as you got. As for him being banned from GG, I think he was given numerous warnings, from what I understand of Meals post, and he just continued on as if he were above all of that, while the lesser people (in his mind) were the ones at fault. If I'm understanding right, he just finally pushed the mods beyond their endurance. Note that this is just my own perception of DS. He did have the ability to have intelligent conversations, but inevitably, most of the threads I read of his degenerated into insults, some very nasty ones at that, so I just started avoiding them like the plague.

Thanks ImLawBoy, I was typing as you were posting, and your post cleared up the reasons for the banning even more.

tals · Post by **tals** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:43 pm

Thanks ImLawBoy, I was typing as you were posting, and your post cleared up the reasons for the banning even more.

Agreed.

Tals

Hrdina · Post by **Hrdina** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:26 pm

setaside wrote:I found it funny in that thread that I was lumped in with the other "stalkers". I've never harrassed Derek in my life.

Apparently, anyone who doesn't lick his boots is a stalker. So if you did not exhibit the deference that such an eminence that is clearly his due, well you just got what's coming to you.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:25 pm

The great thing about the internet is there is always someone who says "Hey, give the guy a break, everyone deserves a second chance". Derek thrives on that. The truth is Derek is on his 12,327th chance out here in the ether.

He's an ass. He can play the intellectual in a pseudo fashion, but it becomes evident quickly that he can't keep up with the big boys, and that really pisses him off. When you construct a false reality you don't like it when someone destroys it.

In my opinion, an account should be insta-banned the second it's tied to Derek. He's used up all the goodwill I have and then some. While I prayed the mods at GG would just ban him outright, I think they handled it as best they could, which was very well indeed. And I will concede he was better behaved on GG than anywhere else I've read him. Quite frankly I think everyone was better behaved on GG than anywhere else. Seems GG brought out the best in people, even monsters like Derek. (Still in the GG grieving process

)

What kind of developer makes a product, then "spits" on all the potential customers in the virtual world. He's done this again and again. Denigrating current customers as well as possible future customers.

Derek is his own worst enemy. I'd wish him a sad, lonely life if I he didn't already have one.

The best part of all this, is that I'm the king of "do unto others" and "Turn the other cheek". He gets under my skin in so many ways it's amazing.

WPD · Post by **WPD** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:33 pm

I believe I only ever interaced with Derek Smart once and that was to ask about some acronym or other that he posted.

What I have read in threads he posted in remind me of a guy I knew in high school. He wasn't too bad of a guy, but he just wanted everyone to believe he was IMPORTANT. If you challenged his importance, you were an enemy.

One time in a programming class, he was writing some important code(a tic-tac-toe program directly out of a book) one of our classmates said to him "Highlight all your text so I can read it better." and he did. Then the classmate quickly pressed delete. Then I recommended ctrl+s to rsstore it. And he did it.

Anyways, I think my story's moral is that he thought we were going to help him out even though he was always a huge jerk and got pissed at us for not.

But that's all beside the point , I just wanted to post that story cause it always makes me laugh.