Bicycles?

[PeteRock]

You know, Lee, the more I think about it, and with itaiyo's comments, a cyclocross might be a nice bike to consider. You have a great road bike that doesn't sacrifice much (if any) efficiency and speed (23 mm road slicks will easily mount on the bike's existing rims), the aluminum frame is very rigid for climbing and responsiveness (but is a little rough on bumpy surfaces), but you also have the ability to enjoy some minor off-road riding if you so choose without the klunky issues of riding a mountain bike on the road. With a straight road bike you won't really have that option because the fork is too narrow to accomodate knobby tires. You're limited to just road riding, whereas a cyclocross allows you all of the benefits of a road frame that has been reinforced for strength and a fork that will accomodate knobby tires for riding on unpaved paths.

And there are other cyclocross manufacturers out there that have lower prices than Trek. I think I also looked at a Redline with disc brakes and a double chain ring, but I liked Trek's components, the bike's color, the added set of brake levers on the handlebars, and the triple chain ring more. I also wasn't comfortable with Redline. I didn't like the feet of the bike, and I was iffy on the quality. I knew what I was getting with the Trek. I also looked at other brands that had better components for a cheaper price, but the frame is also a very important part of the bike. Some manufacturers sell a cheaper frame with nicer components. The frame is the foundation of the bike. You are far better off buying a better frame with lesser quality components and then upgrading later, than buying a cheap frame with nicer components. The frame is what outlasts everything else (if you get a good one, which is usually the most expensive part of the bike).

[Lee]

Lee, I'm with Pete Rock on this one. I ride a cyclocross bike with lighter weight road wheels (Performance Bike Brand Forte Titan wheels) and road slicks (23 mm wide Michelin Carbon tires). I love it. Plus I have my original heavier duty wheels and knobby tires (32 mm) that I can throw on it if I want to do some light trail riding (singletrack and downhill are out, but that's not my cup of tea anyway).

I will have to take a look at the cyclocross bikes, the XO1 is out of my price range though, especially after an extra set of slicks. I really do like the idea of having a bike I could take down dirt roads/trails too. Ugh, after pretty much deciding on the Pilot or Sequoia, you guys are making me doubt again! Maybe the Trek SU200 with an extra set of rims is the way to go? It wouldn't be as fast, but it would be better than a normal MB on pavement.

One thing I will say for a first road bike, though, try to get either a triple chain ring (making it a 27 or 30 speed) with 34/42/52 teeth, OR a compact double chain ring with something like 34/50 teeth. I've got a non-compact double (39/52) and had my lungs handed to me the one time I climbed a mountain pass on it (Vail pass, 10,600 feet if memory serves). The compact crank is really all the rage since it gives you most of the gearing range of the triple with less weight.

The Pilot has 52/42/30 and the SU200 has 48/38/28. I really don't know what this means to me though.

Oh, and padded bike shorts are a must. I go spandex, but there's tons of baggy mountain bike shorts with pads. And clipless pedals (the kind where you wear a special shoe with a cleat attached that clicks into the pedal [think downhill ski bindings]) are a must in my book. Get power out of the upstroke as well as the down...

I can't picture me wearing spandex bike shorts, so I hope those baggy ones work good.

Aren't clip pedals a pain in the ass? I will be using them if I get the Pilot, and it just seems they would be a problem for traffic riding. Not that I plan to do much traffic riding, but I will have to do some getting to some of the better areas of town to ride.

Anyway, I will probably buy something Friday or so. The LBS encouraged me to try a few different bikes. I am worried that the SU200 will be more comfortable to me just because that is more of what I am used to. I have never ridden a road bike so I fear I may be put off by it initially and not give it a chance.

I can see a road bike on a good road really being a blast. But then again a hybrid or MB would be so nice for the versatility.

Jeez I thought I had my mind made up. I wish someone could decide for me!

[PeteRock]

I will have to take a look at the cyclocross bikes, the XO1 is out of my price range though, especially after an extra set of slicks. I really do like the idea of having a bike I could take down dirt roads/trails too. Ugh, after pretty much deciding on the Pilot or Sequoia, you guys are making me doubt again! Maybe the Trek SU200 with an extra set of rims is the way to go? It wouldn't be as fast, but it would be better than a normal MB on pavement.

Don't go with the SU200. Trust me. As a perfect example, when my wife and I were shopping for new bikes a few years ago, I wanted a road bike with some off-road capabilities (hence the XO1), and she wanted a "comfort" bike. She now detests her choice. People think that a hybrid gives you the best of all worlds, off-road capability with on-road comfort. In actuality, hybrids suck at everything. They are unstable off-road, and the air resistance from the upright riding position and the drag from the bike's weight and wider tires make for a slow, tiresome ride. Plus, anything over 20 miles and my wife can no longer sit down on the saddle. It may sound counterintuitive, but a thinner seat is more comfortable on longer rides than a wider seat because you have less surface area in contact with the seat, less rubbing, etc. Thinner seat, lighter bike, thinner tires = more fun in the long run.

My wife is currently just waiting for me to buy my next bike so she can inherit the XO1. After five minutes on it and she was hooked. At first people think road bikes aren't comfortable, but it just takes time to get used to. If your riding position is correct, it should be very comfortable, especially over longer distances. Your weight is divided across your body, instead of pressing straight down on the seat when in an upright position. Appropriate body positioning is like squatting down, your butt goes back, your hands go forward. If you're on your bike correctly, you shouldn't be leaning much on your hands, and your center of gravity should actually be centered for good balance, control, and comfort. You're not putting all of your weight on your butt like in an upright riding position. The more your weight is spaced out, the less pressure on your butt, and the less discomfort. Your bike shop should be able to help you find your optimum riding position.

The Pilot has 52/42/30 and the SU200 has 48/38/28. I really don't know what this means to me though.

The Pilot has a chainring set geared for more pedaling efficiency (downward force transformed into forward mobility), whereas the SU200 is designed for easier pedaling (less force to translate into forward mobility, but less efficient in turning force into speed).

Oh, and padded bike shorts are a must. I go spandex, but there's tons of baggy mountain bike shorts with pads. And clipless pedals (the kind where you wear a special shoe with a cleat attached that clicks into the pedal [think downhill ski bindings]) are a must in my book. Get power out of the upstroke as well as the down...

I can't picture me wearing spandex bike shorts, so I hope those baggy ones work good.

It's silly to be self conscious about bike shorts. They are definitely a must. Baggy shorts work ok, but on longer rides you have a lot of rubbing and inevitable chafing. Plus, with padded bike shorts there is a chammy between the part of your body in contact with the saddle to whisk away sweat and minimize chafing. Baggy shorts don't have that shammy right up against your butt. Plus, tight clothes are more aerodynamic, and you'll find on a windy day that every last bit of loose fabric makes a difference. With baggy clothes you're like a big sail, completely negating the efficiency of an aerodynamic riding position. Granted, you won't be racing, but you will find over time that it makes a difference.

Aren't clip pedals a pain in the ass? I will be using them if I get the Pilot, and it just seems they would be a problem for traffic riding. Not that I plan to do much traffic riding, but I will have to do some getting to some of the better areas of town to ride.

Clipless pedals are not a pain in the ass, but keep in mind there is a learning curve. Practice getting in and out of them, over and over and over and over and over again. And then practice some more until it becomes second nature. Learn to keep from panicking and pulling up on your feet when the only way out is by twisting them. But, once you get the hang of it, you will appreciate them. They help to make your pedaling more efficient, you are forced to buy clipless shoes which have firm soles (soft soles on regular sneakers tire out your legs and feet because you have to exert energy to keep your feet flat - ever climb a ladder while barefoot? Your feet get tired). I've been riding for years, and even I on occasion have been known to tip over when I brain fart and pull up on my foot instead of twisting, but now that I've ridden with clipless pedals, I can never go back. It makes riding so much more efficient.

And when you're riding greater distances, it is important.

Anyway, I will probably buy something Friday or so. The LBS encouraged me to try a few different bikes. I am worried that the SU200 will be more comfortable to me just because that is more of what I am used to. I have never ridden a road bike so I fear I may be put off by it initially and not give it a chance.

I can see a road bike on a good road really being a blast. But then again a hybrid or MB would be so nice for the versatility.

Jeez I thought I had my mind made up. I wish someone could decide for me!

Trust me, people mistakenly think a hybrid is good for all aspects of cycling, and it's actually good at NOTHING. They're too big and glunky for road riding (not to mention the upright riding style = wind sail), and they're too unstable and upright for off-road riding. How do I know? My wife has one and detests it. The SU200 may be more comfortable to you right away, but as you gain enjoyment out of riding and try to ride farther, you will get to a point when the comfort bike stops being comfortable and starts in the opposite direction. The seat is too wide for distance riding, the tires too wide, the bike to heavy, and the riding position too upright. You will find that you have to fight just to keep moving forward. Whereas on a road bike, when I'm riding next to my wife, especially into the wind, she's pedaling like mad to keep moving, and I simply coast along with a forward pedal every so often to keep moving. Just coasting you will see such a difference in riding efficiency.

If you want versatility, go with a cyclocross. If you don't plan to ride off road ever, then go with a road bike. But please, DO NOT BUY A HYBRID. They don't do anything well. They're good for riding on the boardwalk at the beach for a few minutes to buy an ice cream. If you plan to do any serious riding at all, you'll hate it within a week. I know, because my wife went through the same stuff you are right now.

She wanted comfort over performance, and she never realized how comfortable a road bike can be if you're positioned correctly, and anytime the wind kicks up, you'll thank me for suggesting moving away from a hybrid. They're slow, upright, unstable, and inefficient. All the things that typically discourage a person from sticking with it. You won't ride if you don't like your bike, and it sounds like you won't like a tank of a bike. Plus, the reason her butt gets sore is because she's riding upright, and gravity is pulling all her weight down onto her butt. When you get down in an aerodynamic position your weight is spread out across your form. Try squatting down in your office and gently resting your butt on your office chair. You can stand right up from that position, sit down, and your not putting much pressure on your butt. Now, sit upright in your chair and see how much more pressure is straight on your butt. Imagine riding for four hours with all of your weight on your butt. Sound comfortable? Nope. Add into that slow tires, a heavy bike, and added wind resistance (and that's without factoring in baggy clothes), and soon your bike will be a coat rack collecting dust.

I just don't want to see that happen. You sounds genuinely interested in getting into cycling, and a hybrid is the kiss of death because they don't do anything right. They're for parents to ride with their kids around the park. After 30 minutes you're done. You want something better, and that won't discourage you from riding. In the long run, you'll be happier.

If you decide to look into a cyclocross, you'll find they range in price from $800 to $2000, so you should be able to find something in your price range. I think Redline makes a cyclocross for under $900.

[magic]

Baggy shorts don't have that shammy right up against your butt.

wrong. I have about six pairs of Fox MTB shorts that are basically traditional cycling shorts on the inside, with a baggy "fashionable" shell.

[PeteRock]

Baggy shorts don't have that shammy right up against your butt.

wrong. I have about six pairs of Fox MTB shorts that are basically traditional cycling shorts on the inside, with a baggy "fashionable" shell.

Ah, I stand corrected. I've seen baggy shorts with "padding", but they didn't have the form-fitting shorts on the inside, just a padded rear. I've always been partial to road cycling shorts and haven't really explored the baggy route. Sorry for the misinformation.

[magic]

Very nice few posts, Pete.

I'm starting to think a cyclocross bike is best for you too. I can only echo the sentiments that Hybrids generally suck.

A Cyclocross bike will give you the option to slap on a pair of knobblys and cruise some doubletrack or fire roads (of which there's tons by you) should you feel like a change. After reading a few of your concerns over riding on trails you wouldn't imagine riding on (and no, i'm not calling you a sissy ) i think you'd probably enjoy fire/dirt roads and wide off road paths/trails more than some of the more technical singletrack.

Do you have an REI by you? They have a house brand called Novara, and they're relatively good value bikes. Their online bike shop is http://www.rei.com/rei/shoplettes/bikes ... YCLING_TOC


As for clipless pedals... i can barely ride a bike anymore without them. I'm so used to being on my bike that my instinct tells me to push and pull with my legs, leaving me flailing my legs around and generally going nowhere when i use a bike without them.
I've got a set of Crank Bros. Eggbeaters, and they're amazing. Four sided entry and they couldn't hold mud if they wanted to. All i have to do is put my foot down and i'm locked in. No flipping it over to the right side, anything.

They're also a great theft deterrent. Someone can't get on your bike and just ride away with them... they'll have to wheel it off.

[Lee]

Ok, ok, thanks for setting me straight, no hybrids. You guys are right, I would probably regret it since my goal is to build endurance and do some longer rides.

As far as cyclocross, the ones I have looked up (Trek, Specialized, REI, and Cannondale) have all been out of my price range. While I could spend more than a thousand, I really don't want to. With the initial purchase I will already need a helmet, gloves, shorts (I guess ), a lock, and water bottles/racks. Then I still need to get a patch kit, pump, and it sounds like, clipless pedals. I am already spending more than planned when I decided to get a roadbike over a MB, so I am going to have to keep it simple for now. I want a bike sooner than later so I have the summer to ride.

By the way, above, I was asking about normal pedals, with the old style clips. The Pilot comes with them, and I can't afford to replace them yet. I can just see me getting my foot stuck in the clip when I am trying to stop in traffic. They look awkward, and I know I hate them on stationary bikes.

Which leads me to my next question, shoes. I have hiking shoes, more of street hiking shoes, running shoes, and some Nike crosstrainer shoes. None of them seem like they will be good for cycling. Any suggestions? Or should I just start looking at clipless as soon as possible?

Thanks guys, your info as been invaluable.

[PeteRock]

Ok, ok, thanks for setting me straight, no hybrids. You guys are right, I would probably regret it since my goal is to build endurance and do some longer rides.

Good. You won't be sorry. I once had a hybrid as a kid. The salesperson convinced me that since I wanted to do a little of everything, this was the best of all worlds. Bullshit. It sucked on the road, and it sucked off the road. It sat and rotted until I finally got a true road bike.

As far as cyclocross, the ones I have looked up (Trek, Specialized, REI, and Cannondale) have all been out of my price range. While I could spend more than a thousand, I really don't want to. With the initial purchase I will already need a helmet, gloves, shorts (I guess ), a lock, and water bottles/racks. Then I still need to get a patch kit, pump, and it sounds like, clipless pedals. I am already spending more than planned when I decided to get a roadbike over a MB, so I am going to have to keep it simple for now. I want a bike sooner than later so I have the summer to ride.

I would advise you not to be hasty. Yes, you will need all of the things you listed (including shorts - if you decide to learn the hard way, you will never make the mistake again - the next time you sit in the saddle you will consider duct taping a pillow to your seat), which definitely brings up the total cost of the investment, but what happens when you decide you want to do some off-road riding and are not able to? Is this an important option? If so, definitely consider holding off a bit until you can afford the "right" bike for you. I fully understand the need to fit within a budget, but you also don't want to wind up needing a second bike in the recent future, or looking to replace this bike sooner rather than later because it's not exactly what you wanted in the first place. These are questions only you can answer. I'm not suggesting that your plan to purchase a road bike is wrong, but think long-term. Will you get more enjoyment out of riding stricly road routes, or would the occasional trip down an unpaved path along a river in fall really make the extra investment worth it to you? I sometimes enjoy riding off the beaten path, through forested areas, along dirt roads, and I wouldn't be able to do this with a road bike. If off-road capabilities are a bonus feature and not necessary, then you can't go wrong with a road bike. However, if you have doubts, take some time to think this through. Only you really know what you want, so make sure you buy what you want.

Also, the accessories you list above aren't too terribly expensive, and if you don't go overboard you can cover everything for a few hundred dollars (yes, this is a lot of money, but not in the overall scheme of things). You don't need a $200 professional helmet (you can get a reasonably-priced helmet for around $50), the kit for your saddle bag (patch kit, pump, tube, etc) is usually pretty inexpensive (and some places throw in the basics with the purchase of a saddle pouch), and you can usually find reasonably-priced bike shorts. Although, in this area you get what you pay for. I have some inexpensive shorts that I never wear because they're almost see-through and have minimal padding. I usually go with the7 or 8-pad shorts (most cycling shops have their "own" brand they like to sell). The clipless pedals won't be too cheap, and then there are shoes. It all really depends on what you want. Do you want a cheaper bike with clipless pedals, a nicer helmet, and some other bells and whistles? Then go for it. But you can always upgrade certain things later as you get more serious (like the clipless pedals).

By the way, above, I was asking about normal pedals, with the old style clips. The Pilot comes with them, and I can't afford to replace them yet. I can just see me getting my foot stuck in the clip when I am trying to stop in traffic. They look awkward, and I know I hate them on stationary bikes.

They aren't clipless pedals then, are they? I've never been a fan of this type of pedals. They're a little more archaic, less user-friendly, and don't exactly provide the same pedaling efficiency of clipless pedals. Plus, clipless pedals force you to pick up clipless shoes, which have a hard sole. With clip pedals you most likely will wear shoes you already own, which typically have softer soles, and wind up leading to faster fatigue. If you want to do it "right", go with clipless. You'll be happier in the long run. However, you can always use the supplied pedals for a while, and later add clipless pedals as a nice "treat" or upgrade when you can better afford it. There's no set rule. Just make sure you are getting what you want, not settling for something that merely lets you "get by". Trust me, you won't ride what you don't really like.

Which leads me to my next question, shoes. I have hiking shoes, more of street hiking shoes, running shoes, and some Nike crosstrainer shoes. None of them seem like they will be good for cycling. Any suggestions? Or should I just start looking at clipless as soon as possible?

I would urge you to really start looking at clipless pedals if you are serious about riding and increasing your stamina and distance. They're a great accessory for the "serious" cyclist. And once you go clipless, you'll never go back. However, if you have a harder-soled shoe (hiking shoes sometimes have a relatively firm sole), you can get by with clip pedals for a while, but eventually you'll want to upgrade if you go the less expensive route. This is something that can always be added later. You should decide what is most important to you right now and then plan accordingly. If you are at all apprehensive that you might not get into cycling as much as you might think, then go with the supplied pedals, ride for a bit, and if you wind up loving it like we do, upgrade later. You'll only gain a further appreciation for the upgrades having already ridden lower-level components.

But please don't rush into this. Really think about what you truly want, and go from there. If you think you will be perfectly content with a road-only bike, then by all means go for it. If you think you would seriously enjoy (and actually take advantage of) off-road capabilities, then give some serious thought to buying a bike that will not offer this option. Just some things to keep in mind before taking the plunge. I don't want to see you regret your investment.

[disarm]

Baggy shorts don't have that shammy right up against your butt.

wrong. I have about six pairs of Fox MTB shorts that are basically traditional cycling shorts on the inside, with a baggy "fashionable" shell.

Ah, I stand corrected. I've seen baggy shorts with "padding", but they didn't have the form-fitting shorts on the inside, just a padded rear. I've always been partial to road cycling shorts and haven't really explored the baggy route. Sorry for the misinformation.

i'll jump in with a comment on this as well. i have a pair of "baggy" shorts that are great. they're your typical tight spandex bike shorts on the inside, but they have a baggy nylon shell on the outside...and they're designed so that you're not sitting on any seams (like any good cycling shorts). you get the both worlds in my opinion...functionality of good cycling shorts, but the appearance of a normal pair of shorts. they're great for times when you're out in public during/after riding and want to blend in a little more off the bike. it's also very convenient once in a while to have a few extra pockets to carry things around. they're worth checking out, although like anything else, you'll find a pretty wide variation in quality.

[Zinfan]

The Pilot, Roubaix and Sequoria (sp?) and others of that design were made because hybrids do suck but not everyone likes the laidout position of the normal road bike. These bikes are fine for what you want to do and I just want you to be clear that they are not hybrids as we are discussing in this thread, more like roadie lites and fine machines for normal everyday road riding.

Mountain bike pedals are probably better suited for your needs since the cleat is recessed into the sole of the shoe thereby allowing you to walk around like normal when not on the bike. A traditional road pedal cleat( I have Look Keo's on my bike) sticks way out of the sole and it is impossible to walk more than a few feet without falling down . In addition MTB shoes will have a bit more flex to allow walking but still have enough stiffness so you don't lose too much power. Another benefit of MTB pedals is the float that they have, float being the ability to move the foot around without clicking out. Most road pedals have little float (except frogplays but I don't like those myself) and this can cause knee problems if you don't have them adjusted just right.

So buy a road bike but put MTB pedals on it, ride in MTB shoes and wear MTB shorts (padded ones, which work just fine) and ride on the road

[Lee]

Hmm, you just don't want to make this easy for me do you Pete?

The tires that come on a cyclocross, they're knobbies right? So I would want another set of rims with slicks right? That's what another $200? It just seems that the price is going up and up, which kind of scares me. I was originally thinking $500 to get in shape and have some fun, and it's slowly adding up. (Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying reading this thread and doing the research, I just feel I need to put the brakes on cost at some point. Not to mention all this looking makes me really want to get out and ride.) For that extra price of a cyclocross over the Pilot, and the cost of extra rims, it seems like I could get a decent mountain bike if I really want to go off road on top of a road bike.

I will definitely be checking out the cyclocross bike next time I am in the LBS, but I am kind of thinking I should just get a fun road bike, get in shape, build my endurance, and worry about off road next year if it interests me (I tend to hike so I can stop and smell the rose when I am in the woods anyway).

What do you think?

[magic]

Lee.

For anything that ISN'T the bike, i buy from www.pricepoint.com - i got my eggbeaters ($129) and a pair of $250 shoes from them for $140 shipped. Patch kits, tubes, tires, replacement parts, everything. You can probably get shoes and pedals from there for $50 in a combo deal. It's not something you have to get right away, by any means. Spend the first couple of months getting used to your new bike and getting in shape, and keep an eye out online for some deals.
However, buy a helmet in a store - even if it's a big box sporting goods store... you want it to fit your head properly in the event of a spill.

I notice you're referring to the Pilot a lot - seems to be your current bike of interest. Is that because of the more upright position? The Carbon?

One brand you've not mentioned is Giant. They have a $600 entry level all aluminum roadie - i think it's the OCR 3. It has similar frame geometry to the Pilot. I know the OCR 2 has been considered one of the best value for money low cost starter bikes for a couple of years, and it's $800 which gets you much better components (smoother shifting, etc) and a composite fork - and comes with clipless pedals, too. It's slightly more than the Pilot but it's a much better deal (in my mind).

When i finally decide if i'm going to buy a roadie of my own, i'll likely get myself an OCR 2 or a Specialized Allez Triple (770).

The tires that come on a cyclocross, they're knobbies right? So I would want another set of rims with slicks right? That's what another $200? It just seems that the price is going up and up, which kind of scares me.

most likely.
You've stumbled in and got the attention of bike geeks. It's what we do
Reading what i've just quoted from you, and what you've posted over the last few days... scrap the off road idea for now, because it's just driving up the cost of entry. It seems like your main focus is to get on the road, not off it
If you get the MTB itch next spring, consider getting an entry level MTB too. The true hybrid - you get the best of both worlds because you have both kinds of bike :

[Lee]

For anything that ISN'T the bike, i buy from www.pricepoint.com - i got my eggbeaters ($129) and a pair of $250 shoes from them for $140 shipped. Patch kits, tubes, tires, replacement parts, everything. You can probably get shoes and pedals from there for $50 in a combo deal. It's not something you have to get right away, by any means. Spend the first couple of months getting used to your new bike and getting in shape, and keep an eye out online for some deals.
However, buy a helmet in a store - even if it's a big box sporting goods store... you want it to fit your head properly in the event of a spill.

I have seen lots of other references to pricepoint.com, I will definitely be hitting up their site once I have a bike. For the helmet the LBS said they sell decent helmets for $40.

I notice you're referring to the Pilot a lot - seems to be your current bike of interest. Is that because of the more upright position? The Carbon?

Reading various cycling threads/articles Trek seems to be a popular brand that everyone seems to like (including the LBS owner). Plus I knew who they were before I started researching this, so I kind of gravitate towards their bikes.

The Pilot because I like the idea of being able to ride upright if I want to, with full controls. I have a bad back, and I know my back always gets uncomfortable on stationary bikes so the option of 2 riding styles appeals to me for distance riding. And to be honest, I liked the Pilot over the Sequoia because of the color scheme (well that and the LBS owner suggested the Trek was a better deal). Also everything I have read has suggested that the Pilot is a great starter bike.

One brand you've not mentioned is Giant. They have a $600 entry level all aluminum roadie - i think it's the OCR 3. It has similar frame geometry to the Pilot. I know the OCR 2 has been considered one of the best value for money low cost starter bikes for a couple of years, and it's $800 which gets you much better components (smoother shifting, etc) and a composite fork - and comes with clipless pedals, too. It's slightly more than the Pilot but it's a much better deal (in my mind).

When i finally decide if i'm going to buy a roadie of my own, i'll likely get myself an OCR 2 or a Specialized Allez Triple (770).

I really haven't seen a lot of mention of Giant from my reading, so maybe I haven't looked into them as much? I don't think the LBS sells them, but I plan to check out a couple of stores in CO too. Although I know from online they are a bit more expensive in CO.

I did look at the Specialized Allez Triple, but I had already decided that I liked the upright option of the Pilot/Sequoia.

Thanks again guys. I have even more to look into now. If it wasn't for you guys I would probably have bought a hybrid by now and be wondering if I made the right decision.

[magic]

Thanks again guys. I have even more to look into now. If it wasn't for you guys I would probably have bought a hybrid by now and be wondering if I made the right decision.

Well, at least we accomplished something.

Comparing the lowest level Pilot and the OCR 3 and 2 (2 being better) part by part is pretty difficult, because they're three different price lines - it's the OCR3<Pilot<OCR2, topping at about $800-850.
Figure a set of clipless pedals with the Pilot or OCR3 adds $75 - That brings the Pilot about in line with what you'd pay for an OCR2 - just about $850 or so.
The Giant lifts you up a peg on the drivetrain component level both front and rear (105 on the rear and Tiagra on the front vs the Pilot's Tiagra/2203 (which is low off the scale )) and also gives you better shifters - the sora's feel pretty cheap and plasticy. Not to mention, you also get another whole cog on the back (three more gears, total) and the WTB Laser saddles are pretty comfortable (I have a Laser Speed V on my MTB).

Given that both bikes are essentially the same price (like i said, factor in the pedals for the Pilot) that's a hell of a lot of upgrades for nothing.

[Lee]

I am looking at the Pilot 1.2, not the 1.0 btw. $900 at the LBS. I think he said $800 for the Sequoia.

I will be looking for the OCR2, maybe the LBS had it and I overlooked it. I know they had tons of Treks everywhere.

Edit: 4 Giant dealers within 50 miles. Only one had a working website and they don't list the mens version of the OCR2.

[Zinfan]

Nothing wrong with liking the Pilot due to its paint scheme or whatever, the more you like it the more you will want to ride it. Not to throw more things at you but there is a performance bike shop in Ft Collins and their house brand may be worth a look if you decide to take a road trip that way

http://www.performancebike.com/inform/s ... tore_ID=76

Some of the house brands have better overall components than the Trek/Giants, like full 105 drive trains.

[Lee]

The Pilot 1.2 has a 105 derailer, is that the same thing?

[Jeff V]

re: clipless pedals: The ones on my road bike (regular SPD pedals) cost me $60 and have worked great for a few years now. My mountain bike has dual-purpose pedals - flat on one side, a SPD clip on the other - and cost about $100 a pair. The reason for buying those is that with two bikes, I could conceivably lend one out to someone who doesn't have bike shoes and cleats.

Bike shoes, like any others, run the gamut in cost. Road bike shoes have very hard soles and the cleats stick out on the bottom - they really aren't made for walking around in. I prefer MTB shoes, the soles are still stiff but not hard (rubber instead of plastic), and the cleats are recessed so you can walk or even drive in them.

Once your thighs are ripped, you WILL want tight-fitting lycra shorts to show them off. They are also cheaper than the padded baggy shorts - I have one pair of baggies that were $50 on sale (and I still have yet to wear them!). OTOH, fleece or chamois lined shorts run on sale for $20, and gel shorts $30-40. You'll want several pairs at least - more if you don't like doing laundry often. NEVER wear them twice in a row without washing them - bacteria will cause skin rashes and other unpleasant side effects.

Probably the first thing I replace on any bike I buy is the seat. Stock seats - especially those that come with bikes in the price range you're looking at, just aren't that good. I'll usually spend $40-60 on a seat (w/grove to save my junk). They tend to last me about two years, but that's because my massive ass destroys them.

Since I think you're going to want to carry shit, you should consider a rack and bag (decent size trunk bag for now, panniers down the road if you want to carry ALL of your camera stuff). A rack is $30-50, the bag $50-100. I bought some decent-sized panniers from REI for $100 a pair, I use these mostly for commuting, they can also be used for touring or grocery shopping.

You're probably going to want gloves, too. I use Serfas Rx gloves, they have gel pads on the palms and are grooved to protect your carpel tunnel.

Check and see if any of the bike stores in your area have any accessory deals. The place I bought my Trek from (Village Cycle Center) gives a package that includes a free helmet, seat bag, and lock with a bike purchase.

[PeteRock]

I agree also with wearing MTB clipless shoes with MTB clipless pedals. I, too, have MTB clipless shoes because of their versatility. I can walk around in them, drive, and head into the local bagel shop after a ride and not fall flat on my ass. Road clipless pedals have plastic bottoms that don't do very well on smooth floors.

The tires that come on a cyclocross, they're knobbies right? So I would want another set of rims with slicks right? That's what another $200?

Actually, you don't really have to buy separate rims. It makes changing out tires a little easier, but it's not necessary. I only have one set of rims, and the 23mm tires fit fine on the cyclocross rims. Have your local bike shop show you how to change a tire (you'll want to know this anyway because a flat while on a ride is inevitable). Then, when you're at home, practice. Try it out a few times until you get the hang of it. Nothing says that you only can change a tire when you have a flat. I change out my tires on the same rims whenever I need to, and it isn't a problem at all. Plus, it gives you added practice for when you're out on a ride, 20 miles from home, and you have to fix a flat in the searing sun.

So, it won't really increase the price of your bike a full $200. Just tires and a set of 23mm tubes is all you need (you'll have the tire levers and associated tools to change a tire already in your seat pack).

[magic]

The Pilot 1.2 has a 105 derailer, is that the same thing?

The Pilot 1.2 clocks pretty much identical component wise compared to the OCR2, but you still don't get pedals. The OCR2's MSRP is at least $150 less than the Pilot 1.2's with the pedals. That more than pays for a pair of shoes to attatch to the pedals, a helmet, pump, patch kit and water bottles. You could probably get a good pair of cycling shorts too.

Anyway, Pete.
It's a shame you're not still in Philly. This weekend's the big bike race. I'm parking myself on the Manayunk wall early on, and i'll probably head up towards Lemon Hill later in the day (the action's usually good up there towards the end). Shame you're not around anymore. I'm borrowing a bike on Saturday morning and riding the course when they open it to the public for a fun ride as they usually do. Combined with the World Cup, it's a great weekend

[Lee]

The Pilot 1.2 has a 105 derailer, is that the same thing?

The Pilot 1.2 clocks pretty much identical component wise compared to the OCR2, but you still don't get pedals. The OCR2's MSRP is at least $150 less than the Pilot 1.2's with the pedals. That more than pays for a pair of shoes to attatch to the pedals, a helmet, pump, patch kit and water bottles. You could probably get a good pair of cycling shorts too.

But the 1.2 has the ability to ride it upright, what seems like a big selling point to me. Sounds great for long rides. Of course once I am an experienced rider, that may not be important, but right now, I like the idea.

I am going to check out a lot of these bikes this weekend, and see what I like or don't. It's odd that Giant doesn't seem too common around here, there is only one store that sells them in Ft Collins, CO where I am going (the one that doesn't carry the mens OCR2). The LBS does not have them either.

[Hornblower]

Another option Lee, is you might consider a steel framed bike. The bike shop I visited today had a Lemond bike with a steel frame in the right price range (under $1000). The benefits of steel are a much more compliant ride then aluminum, and its easier to repair.

The drawbacks of course, is that steel is a bit heavier. Steel frames have come a long way though, and it was only a couple pounds heavier then the aluminum bike. I imagine most people won't notice the difference (having more then a few pounds to lose on their frames before the bikes weight matters ).

Apparently, and I've heard this from my friend that bikes at work, a steel frame will really feel nicer over a distance.

The bike shop near me also rents bikes, so for $30 I can take one out and get a feel for the bike, and if I really like riding or not.

[Lee]

Oh and Jeff, no way I am loading up a few thousand dollars of camera equipment onto my bike. I am not very confident in my riding skills that I wouldn't crash and break it all to pieces. My little P&S will be with me though.

[magic]

The OCR2 is a little more upright than a higher performance road bike... a little less than the Pilot. It's a little more relaxed than the racier models.

[Zinfan]

The drive train usually consists of the front and rear derailers, shifters, crankarms, chain rings (the ones up front) and the cassette (cogs at the back wheel). A lot of times the manufacturer will upgrade a couple of components. In order of quality for Shimano from lowest to highest it goes 2200<Sora<Tiagra<105<Ultegra<Dura-Ace and you can pretty much reverse the order in terms of weight (Dura-Ace being the lighest). The more 105 components you have the better. It gets difficult when you add in wheels and handlebars and stems, all of which can be part of a group but many times are subsituted with house brands, in the case of Trek they use Bontrager for a lot of those items and it's difficult to figure which is better. Looking at the Pilot 1.2 and the Giant OCR2 I don't see much advantage either way component wise (they are almost exactly the same) except for the Giant's clipless pedals that will save you a few bucks since you won't have to upgrade them. You might want to talk to the store owner to see if they have clipless pedals that someone took off a bike (my LBS has a few since some people are freaked out by them and want old style clips) and perhaps you could get them cheap. I did notice the Trek tires were 28C (measure of the width of the tire) which is pretty wide, you lose some efficency but gain comfort and flat resistance on rough roads with those. I use a 25C in the back and a 23C up front so when those originals wear out you may want to think about narrowing em up (just post another message and we'll have a long discussion on tires )

I looked up the performance house brand Scattante R-560 priced at $897 and it had the following;
Frame: Aluminum DB road frame w/ 8000Z Dropout, Tig welded
Fork: BEV Carbon/Aluminum 28.6 Integrated Alloy Steerer
Rear Shock: NA
Headset: 1 1/8” integrated 36/45 degree
Crankset: FSA Gossamer MegaExo Triple, 50x39x30T w/ integrated BB
Bottom Bracket: TruVativ Giga X Pipe Team
Shifters: Rear: Shimano 105 10 speed Triple; Front: Shimano 105 Double/Triple
Levers: Shimano 105
Handlebar: Alloy 7075 D.B. 31.8mm
Stem: Alloy 31.8mm
F Der.: Shimano 105 Triple
R Der.: Shimano 105 10 speed Triple
Cassette: Shimano 105 12-27, 10 speed
Brakes: Tektro 423-AG Forged Alloy Dual Pivot, w/P420 Cartridge Pads
Wheelset: Alex R450/Formula RB21 Front, RB22 Rear
Tires: Kenda K-191, 700x23c
Pedals: Wellgo Alloy clipless
Seatpost: Alloy 6061
Saddle: Velo
Chain: 10 speed, 106 links
GRIPS/TAPE: Synthetic cork tape w/ bar plug

I put bold around things the the Trek and Giant have lesser quality items on thier package. This is just to show you some of the things you might want to look for but if the Pilot is calling you and it seems to be the best fit then that is what you should go for. The bike you like the best is going to be the bike you probably ride the most, not the one that was the best value. Good hunting!

[Zinfan]

If you want to get a rough idea of what size bike to look for try Zinn's online fit calculator

http://www.zinncycles.com/fitsystems/default_ie.aspx

I'm off to find a tape measure and see how close it comes to my previous fit from the LBS.

[PeteRock]

Anyway, Pete.
It's a shame you're not still in Philly. This weekend's the big bike race. I'm parking myself on the Manayunk wall early on, and i'll probably head up towards Lemon Hill later in the day (the action's usually good up there towards the end). Shame you're not around anymore. I'm borrowing a bike on Saturday morning and riding the course when they open it to the public for a fun ride as they usually do. Combined with the World Cup, it's a great weekend

It's killing me that I can't go to the race this year. I've been attending the race since the early 90's when Lance Armstrong became the first to win the "Triple Crown" (all three stages of the then Corestates Race). I was on the finish line when he won in '93, and I haven't missed a race since. Once my wife and I got decent paying jobs and had the money, we would buy VIP tickets each year to hang out in front of the PMA, fire down beer for the afternoon, enjoy free food, a shuttle up to Manayunk, and reserved seats at the finish line. Yeah, it's a yuppie way to attend the race, but damn it was fun.

Enjoy the race. I miss riding the course with the public. The Wall is one of my favorite cycling legends of all time (within the US, of course).

[Stitch]

Is this an important option? If so, definitely consider holding off a bit until you can afford the "right" bike for you. I fully understand the need to fit within a budget, but you also don't want to wind up needing a second bike in the recent future, or looking to replace this bike sooner rather than later because it's not exactly what you wanted in the first place.

Conversely, he might want to treat this as a first bike and not sink too much money into an untested hobby. $1000 is a huge sum of money to spend on a bike if he discovers he doesn't use it as much as he thought he would.

Likewise, serious enthusiasts such as yourself tend to drive up the cost as your tastes have become specialized to the point of being expensive. You know the value of the pricier features and therefore consider them crucial, but chances are a guy buying his first bike would be satisfied with a cheaper bike, at least for awhile. Lee may reach the point of serious bike enthusiast where he needs a high end bike complete with the expensive accessories, but right now he sounds like a guy just looking to buy a bike.

When I bought my mountain bike (long-ass treks bore me, off road shenanigans rock my world) I set my budget at half a grand and managed to stick to it. Despite the fact that biking enthusiasts stressed that any bike under a grand was a waste of money, I'm having a blast with my $425 bike. I'm working my way up the ladder here--buying accessories as I need them, learning how to maintain my bike--and in a few years I'll probably be ready to sink some serious money on the next one. But right now I couldn't be happier with my decision to keep my bike well within my original budget.

I realize you guys are just trying to be helpful, but you guys do tend to drive up this hobby's perceived cost of entry.

[PeteRock]

Is this an important option? If so, definitely consider holding off a bit until you can afford the "right" bike for you. I fully understand the need to fit within a budget, but you also don't want to wind up needing a second bike in the recent future, or looking to replace this bike sooner rather than later because it's not exactly what you wanted in the first place.

Conversely, he might want to treat this as a first bike and not sink too much money into an untested hobby. $1000 is a huge sum of money to spend on a bike if he discovers he doesn't use it as much as he thought he would.

Likewise, serious enthusiasts such as yourself tend to drive up the cost as your tastes have become specialized to the point of being expensive. You know the value of the pricier features and therefore consider them crucial, but chances are a guy buying his first bike would be satisfied with a cheaper bike, at least for awhile. Lee may reach the point of serious bike enthusiast where he needs a high end bike complete with the expensive accessories, but right now he sounds like a guy just looking to buy a bike.

When I bought my mountain bike (long-ass treks bore me, off road shenanigans rock my world) I set my budget at half a grand and managed to stick to it. Despite the fact that biking enthusiasts stressed that any bike under a grand was a waste of money, I'm having a blast with my $425 bike. I'm working my way up the ladder here--buying accessories as I need them, learning how to maintain my bike--and in a few years I'll probably be ready to sink some serious money on the next one. But right now I couldn't be happier with my decision to keep my bike well within my original budget.

I realize you guys are just trying to be helpful, but you guys do tend to drive up this hobby's perceived cost of entry.

You're absolutely right. And my perspective is somewhat biased because I absolutely love cycling, and I sometimes mistakenly assume that anyone else who gets into the sport will love it as much as I do, and that is not always the case. But sometimes that lack of interest is due to making a purchasing mistake, and it isn't the sport itself that the person dislikes, but the equipment they're "stuck with". I just didn't want to see Lee make a hasty decision and wind up sabotaging his experience from the start by not buying what he wanted (i.e. buying a hybrid).

And, I do have a habit of driving up the price of something that should be relatively affordable and wind up sending the cost through the roof. My wife would definitely wholeheartedly agree with you on that asessment. Case in point.

I apologize, Lee, for implying that spending more money is the only way for you to be happy. I have a habit of getting carried away. You should be thrilled with an entry-level purchase, and over time you may wind up upgrading due to your enjoyment of the sport, or you may simply use it as occasional recreation and instead be happy with the money you saved. Either way, happy cycling, and update us on your purchase when you finally take the plunge.

[Bakhtosh]

On the other hand (or am I back to the original hand?), you don't want a cheap piece of equipment that you don't want to use.

Example: there's an elliptical machine at the gym that I love. It has a power adjust stride length. I can match it to my stride (which tends to be quite long). Of course, it wouldn't work well in a home because the machine is at least 10' long. Buying a home elliptical was a huge mistake. It's more compact, but I can't hit my stride on it...a couple of minutes, and I have to quit.

[PeteRock]

On the other hand (or am I back to the original hand?), you don't want a cheap piece of equipment that you don't want to use.

Example: there's an elliptical machine at the gym that I love. It has a power adjust stride length. I can match it to my stride (which tends to be quite long). Of course, it wouldn't work well in a home because the machine is at least 10' long. Buying a home elliptical was a huge mistake. It's more compact, but I can't hit my stride on it...a couple of minutes, and I have to quit.

The key is finding that happy medium. Hopefully with all of the information we've bombarded Lee with, he'll at least be able to make an informed decision. And since we at least managed to talk him out of a hybrid, I'd consider our contributions successful overall. Plus, if he buys something he's unhappy with, at least he can't blame us.

[Lee]

Yikes, no need to apologize at all Pete. Yours, as well as everyone else's advice has really helped me a lot. It really made me think about what I wanted from a bike and what I should be looking for. If it wasn't for this thread, I would really be completely clueless and probably would have bought the first thing the LBS recommended. Even if I don't follow all of the advice, it gave me more to think about.

[Stitch]

I apologize, Lee, for implying that spending more money is the only way for you to be happy.

I agree with Lee that no apology is really needed. You've been helping Lee by giving him plenty of information, and there's no question that this thread is full of good advice for anyone looking to buy a bike. I was just giving another perspective.

I also don't want to imply that your advice is faulty. High end bikes are pricey, but you really do get what you pay for. My dad has only ever ridden old Schwinns akin to what passes off for quality in la casa de Kobra, and when he hopped on my $425 mountain bike he couldn't believe what a smooth ride it offered. But the high end models I was looking at put my mid-level bike to shame, with the shocks and articulated suspension to glide over even the worst of trails.

My basic take on price is if it's your first bike, dip your toe in carefully. $500 is enough to get you a decent bike but is still a modest enough price tag that you won't feel too bad if you end up upgrading in a couple years. Get closer to a grand, however, and you'd better make damn sure you're buying the bike you want.

[Lee]

Well so much for trying out some other bikes. I was in a pretty rotten mood (see my other thread), so I figured I would go back to the LBS and take a look to get my mind off of things. Took the Pilot out for a ride, and then bought it. I really liked it, it felt comfortable, it rode smoothly (so little effort to keep up speed) I liked the looks of it, I liked how I could sit up and still have brakes (can't shift from the up position though) so I just went out and bought it. I had planned to go to CO tomorrow to look, but so much for that.

Bought a helmet, couple of water bottles, and a floor pump also.

I took it out for a 20 minute ride on the local roads. Got it going pretty fast, but I am still confused by the gearing system (it's not the same as a MB, so I need to get used to it). The whole trim thing is a bit confusing to me, but I will sit and read the manual later. It felt kind of cool chasing cars and almost keeping up with them (25mph speed limit). I worked up a hell of a sweat, quickly, and I can already feel it in my legs. The seat is comfortable, but I need to take it for a longer ride to judge that. After I was thoroughly worn out (man I am out of shape) I put it in a comfortable gear and cruised around in the upright position. One surprising thing though, my wrists were getting sore in the down position. I am not sure if I was holding the handle bars awkwardly or if I just need to strengthen my wrists, but my left wrist especially felt a bit awkward.

I used to be a long distance runner and used to enjoy getting in that groove and pushing myself. I can't run anymore, but I can see this easily replacing running for me.

I am going to go sit, drink some beer, and watch some soccer now. First thing tomorrow when it's cooler and there is less traffic I am going to go on a nice little ride.

Thanks again guys, I know I rushed it in the end, something I said I wasn't going to do, but I really like the bike, and think it is the right bike for me considering the price. This thread was invaluable, and hopefully it will help anyone else looking to get a road bike.

[Zinfan]

I apologize, Lee, for implying that spending more money is the only way for you to be happy.

I agree with Lee that no apology is really needed. You've been helping Lee by giving him plenty of information, and there's no question that this thread is full of good advice for anyone looking to buy a bike. I was just giving another perspective.

I also don't want to imply that your advice is faulty. High end bikes are pricey, but you really do get what you pay for. My dad has only ever ridden old Schwinns akin to what passes off for quality in la casa de Kobra, and when he hopped on my $425 mountain bike he couldn't believe what a smooth ride it offered. But the high end models I was looking at put my mid-level bike to shame, with the shocks and articulated suspension to glide over even the worst of trails.

My basic take on price is if it's your first bike, dip your toe in carefully. $500 is enough to get you a decent bike but is still a modest enough price tag that you won't feel too bad if you end up upgrading in a couple years. Get closer to a grand, however, and you'd better make damn sure you're buying the bike you want.

We can only go by what Lee states is his price range which at the moment is 1k. I'm not one to tell him to spend more then that but I will comment that for road bikes you won't find much under $650 unlike mountain bikes which have a larger following. You are comfortable at the $500 price, a number that probably sends Kobra into fits, and that is fine but if Lee says 1k then whatever information I can get to him that gives him the best bike at the price is my goal. The best thing to do is shop around with some basic knowledge and you will be farther ahead of most bike shoppers and perhaps we have enlightened Lee in his search.

By the way Lee if you have or can borrow a properly fitted helmet, take it along with you for test rides which are important in the decision making process.

I'm like PeteRock, I love cycling and know how much people spend on bikes but the reality is the most expensive equipment is worthless if you don't ride or it dosen't fit.

[Jeff V]

Congrats Lee! Don't overdo it. It doesn't take long to build up endurance and stamina, but as a friend of mine found out yesterday, you can't just wish it to be there (he was yacking after 14 miles ) Even riding as much as I do doesn't prepare me at all for hilly rides - much of the Chicago area where I ride is a flat, coastal plain (it used to be part of a larger glacial lake that receded to present-day Lake Michigan). The hills out west where I went on long rides these past few weeks kicked my ass a bit, and they aren't even close to riding in mountain country.

It's okay to ride until it hurts, but stop at that point. That should push your endurance out bit by bit. Too much riding through pain will make the experience too unpleasant and you might not stick with it. Oh, and over time, your ass will get calloused, which helps.

[Hornblower]

Oh, and over time, your ass will get calloused, which helps.

Now that is a pleasant thought!

Congrats Lee. I saw the Pilot's yesterday and they looked nice. If I get a road bike in the next couple weeks, I may get the top brakes put on as well, it looks like a good casual position (if I don't get the Pilot).

I'm still torn between the Lemond Le Croix De Fer (steel frame), Cannondale R700 (made in USA and nice), or just the entry Specialized Allex. Specialized is in the lead because of its price though.

[fancydirt]

Add on another $60 or so for a Camelback MULE hydration pack. Water bottles suck.

Everyone has done a great job covering the bikes, just want to chime in that I have a few pairs of the spandex bike shorts that I wear under regular baggy shorts. I do have one pair of cannondale mtn bike shorts that came with a liner short, but I don't notice much difference if I wear cargos or something else instead.

Was going to get slicks for my mountain bike (Marin Palisade Trail) but I think I'll just tough it out for the rest of the year and get an XO 1 next year. Still not ready to commit to a full on road bike, but a roadized mountain bike isn't very appealing to me either because of the frame geometry.

[Blackadar]

This thread brings back memories...

I used to road bike a lot. I could go 50-75 miles without a problem (DC and back). I was fast, too...

Then a few years ago I tried Mountain Biking a few times. I never got good, but I was ok. I just gave it up because I got tired of bleeding every time I went out. If I didn't hit a branch, the pedals would cut me.

I've often thought about getting back into road biking, but the roads here are damned narrow. I'm afraid I'd get killed. If they had some damn bike lanes, I'd probably take it back up again.

[magic]

Add on another $60 or so for a Camelback MULE hydration pack. Water bottles suck.

yeah, but they're so not stylish for the elite roadies.

Every time i hit a road ride, i've got my pack on and i'm the only person who's using one. And i get laughed at.

That's what i get for being an XC MTB rider though.





Lee, congrats on the purchase. It sounds like you really connected with the bike and that's what you want... one that feels "right".
Start riding fairly regularly (i ride the same four mile loop at least once a day on my MTB) and your stamina will start to build up. Eventually, if you get as nutty about the sport as myself, it'll affect everything you do, the way you eat, schedule free time... my life revolves around my biking.