Solar Power. Talk to me.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon May 19, 2014 10:03 am

Octavious wrote:Somehow Adisa's dad got involved with a German solar panel company. They are trying to get Adisa to work with them as well lol. I'd get 10 percent if you bought from them!

No German panels here.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Mon May 19, 2014 3:43 pm

My contractor took the CA rebate in return for a "discounted" price on my panels - probably got hosed on that. But I went from owing $9k to the feds to a $9k refund. Thus my net cost on the panels was about $14k. Well worth it.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon May 19, 2014 3:47 pm

Jaymann wrote:My contractor took the CA rebate in return for a "discounted" price on my panels - probably got hosed on that. But I went from owing $9k to the feds to a $9k refund. Thus my net cost on the panels was about $14k. Well worth it.

What size system do you have?

RMC · Post by **RMC** » Mon May 19, 2014 3:59 pm

I keep looking at these systems, heck I have even looked into wind power as well. But where I live, I just keep getting gun shy about the price, and potential payback.

We have geothermal heating, which cut way back on heating and cooling bills, but I would love to cut the electricity side of that down for when the winters are super cold as well.

<sigh>

I think I will wait a few more years and price it all back out.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Tue May 20, 2014 3:57 pm

Zaxxon wrote:
Jaymann wrote:My contractor took the CA rebate in return for a "discounted" price on my panels - probably got hosed on that. But I went from owing $9k to the feds to a $9k refund. Thus my net cost on the panels was about $14k. Well worth it.
What size system do you have?

16 panels.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue May 20, 2014 3:58 pm

Nice. I'm getting 15 (the dudes are actually on my roof installing the footers right now).

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue May 27, 2014 2:35 pm

Final inspection today. Now the [hopefully short but possibly weeks-long] wait for the power company to come install the upgraded meter...

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Tue May 27, 2014 2:47 pm

Getting a free evaluation and quote on Thursday. My house has no shade, lots of roof and I live in a very good solar state for net metering and the like. The phone monkey quoted 17% as the bump to property value. He seems to think my electricity bill would go to zero. Which would be nice. We'll see what the options are.

RMC · Post by **RMC** » Tue May 27, 2014 2:49 pm

I am going to keep an eye on this thread, to see how these turn out. With geothermal, if I could decrease my electric bill, the combo between these two technologies would really make my house very inexpensive.

rshetts2 · Post by **rshetts2** » Tue May 27, 2014 2:57 pm

Now this is interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlTA3rnpgzU&feature=kp

Solar panel roadways! The beginning is annoying but its an interesting concept and its available today.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Tue May 27, 2014 3:00 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:Getting a free evaluation and quote on Thursday. My house has no shade, lots of roof and I live in a very good solar state for net metering and the like. The phone monkey quoted 17% as the bump to property value. He seems to think my electricity bill would go to zero. Which would be nice. We'll see what the options are.

Interesting. I am curious to hear your experience as I've long considered it. However, my impression (when I investigated it about 7 years ago) was that we didn't use nearly enough electricity in our home to make it a worthwhile investment on the part of the installer/provider. Maybe things have changed significantly and it's something they would consider. If they could install panels on my deck, I'm nearly certain there would be enough electricity generated to shoot lasers around the globe.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Tue May 27, 2014 3:34 pm

Smoove_B wrote:Interesting. I am curious to hear your experience as I've long considered it. However, my impression (when I investigated it about 7 years ago) was that we didn't use nearly enough electricity in our home to make it a worthwhile investment on the part of the installer/provider. Maybe things have changed significantly and it's something they would consider. If they could install panels on my deck, I'm nearly certain there would be enough electricity generated to shoot lasers around the globe.

You also have a lot more trees and obstructions around your house. Mine might was well have been constructed in the Sahara.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue May 27, 2014 4:33 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:Getting a free evaluation and quote on Thursday. My house has no shade, lots of roof and I live in a very good solar state for net metering and the like. The phone monkey quoted 17% as the bump to property value. He seems to think my electricity bill would go to zero. Which would be nice. We'll see what the options are.

Sweet. Let me know if you want any of the info or I gathered in my quoting process, or the spreadsheet I used to evalute the quotes.

17% property value bump seems likely to be a bit... optimistic based on what I've gleaned.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Tue May 27, 2014 6:11 pm

I was too lazy to take a look at your numbers above, but there is also the possibility that states vary. NJ is a very pro-solar state. I anticipate not doing anything at this time, but you never know.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Tue May 27, 2014 6:23 pm

State incentives vary considerably, as does expected performance of the system. Good luck.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Tue May 27, 2014 8:31 pm

Not to mention, with NJ property taxes, do you even want a 17% property value bump? The electric bill might be cheaper.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Tue May 27, 2014 8:39 pm

coopasonic wrote:Not to mention, with NJ property taxes, do you even want a 17% property value bump? The electric bill might be cheaper.

As part of NJ's pro solar outlook, you don't pay property tax on the solar portion of your home's value.

em2nought · Post by **em2nought** » Wed May 28, 2014 11:40 pm

Found these the other night http://kingtecsolar.com/ while looking at tiny houses. DC air conditioners made specifically for solar

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Thu May 29, 2014 9:08 pm

I don't have any numbers to compare yet, but I spent an hour and a half with the solar guy tonight. Based on the roof and the way things face, it looked like he wants to slap 26 panels on the roof. His rough calculations concluded that the system would produce around 10,000 KWH per year.

I understand the concept of owning, but it sounds like I am running a business with the SRECs.

Leading certainly sounds easier. I just say "go", and they lock me in at a rate that is 40% lower than I am paying my current provider. And the system should cover about 70% of my annual consumption.

I have to see the actual numbers to make the decision, but I can't see any reason why I wouldn't at least lease the system. I feel like there must be some small print that screws me with that option.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu May 29, 2014 9:12 pm

The small print is generally the long term savings. In my case, leasing was behind by five figures after 20 years. And then it's an extra (probably minor) hurdle if you sell prior to lease expiration. Definitely eases the initial cost, though.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu May 29, 2014 9:44 pm

Zaxxon wrote:The small print is generally the long term savings. In my case, leasing was behind by five figures after 20 years. And then it's an extra (probably minor) hurdle if you sell prior to lease expiration. Definitely eases the initial cost, though.

They actually have similar NPVs when you consider the lease cost is fixed over the 20-year term plus there is also no equipment risk - the lessor self-insures by building in a nominal premium over the fleet (and is a profit center in a good year). I am in line for an employee discount on my deployment which I am going to talk over tomorrow with my guys. The rate is so low that I will have to shell out to have the system removed if I need roof work done - that is usually included. I should be able to reduce my bill 50% overall. Not too shabby.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Thu May 29, 2014 9:44 pm

The dude was pretty clear on the long-term savings. I got the impression he wants me to buy the system.

According to the guy, to buy the system, he was talking about a 12-year loan at 2.99% (based on my credit rating), with $0 down. That seems almost offensively affordable.

The things to consider when owning were:

1) The 30% federal income tax rebate
2) Being able to deduct the depreciated value of the equipment for the first five years.
3) The value of the SRECs. This is something that I knew nothing about. A quick search shows SRECs trading around $180 in NJ (as of March anyway). The system would produce about 10 SRECs per year.

Of course, there are added costs (maintenance, insurance, etc).

I want this to be easier. What kind of hit is there in terms of insurance?

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu May 29, 2014 9:48 pm

That all sounds accurate. I can believe that in certain lease scenarios, the long term savings are similar to buying. It was not for me, but that could just be the local market here.

For me, the insurance hit was exactly zero. (State Farm) They just wanted pics of the system for their records. Makes sense since the weather rating of panels is similar to that of roofing material, and manufacturer warranties are nice and long.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu May 29, 2014 9:49 pm

Also, maintenance is extremely low by my research. Everything's solid state, so you're looking at a possible invertor replacement sometime down the line. That should be about it.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Thu May 29, 2014 9:54 pm

I will report back when I get real numbers. Then I will let you two fight it out to sway me.

This guy almost had me when he offered to give me a Nest on the spot.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu May 29, 2014 9:56 pm

Ha. If I end up fighting, it will be to get you to go with either option. Lease or buy, more renewable energy is a good thing.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Thu May 29, 2014 9:58 pm

One thing that I don't understand is why these solar panels can't help me with the grid power goes out (without buying $20,000 of deep cycle batteries). Having the sun hitting solar panels...and not getting energy would enrage me.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu May 29, 2014 10:01 pm

Because if it's grid tied, the power company needs it off when power is out so their repair dudes don't get dead while performing repairs.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Thu May 29, 2014 10:10 pm

A pretty young lady tried to collar me at the Home Depot today to talk about solar power. I think her pitch was that they install the panels for free and you buy the power from them below market rates...but I was in a hurry and kept on moving, as much as I'd ordinarily be inclined to talk to a pretty young lady.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu May 29, 2014 10:10 pm

Yep, that'd be SolarCity.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Thu May 29, 2014 10:13 pm

I haven't been reading this thread, but now I'm a little bit intrigued.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Thu May 29, 2014 10:47 pm

Zaxxon wrote:Because if it's grid tied, the power company needs it off when power is out so their repair dudes don't get dead while performing repairs.

I feel like that could easily be managed with an automatic switch, like how all automatic generators work.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu May 29, 2014 10:48 pm

Zaxxon wrote:Also, maintenance is extremely low by my research. Everything's solid state, so you're looking at a possible invertor replacement sometime down the line. That should be about it.

The only component to really worry about are the DC/AC inverters. They cost a fortune (several thousand dollars). It is probably the only component that won't become cheaper over time. Or in a sense it won't decline as fast as say the panels which are dramatically dropping price.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Thu May 29, 2014 10:50 pm

In my case, I went with Enphase microinverters which come with a 25-year warranty.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu May 29, 2014 10:53 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:Because if it's grid tied, the power company needs it off when power is out so their repair dudes don't get dead while performing repairs.
I feel like that could easily be managed with an automatic switch, like how all automatic generators work.

It really is a safety thing - the power company wants a physical relay (i.e. fail open in the event of a power outage) and that component is in their control (usually part of the meter -- they usually switch it out to allow the net metering). They don't want any chance that power is pouring onto the grid while they are trying to fix a downed line - safety is always priority one for a utility. You could always go off-grid but I hope you like batteries, fuel cells, stirling engines or some other wacky grid independent system.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu May 29, 2014 10:57 pm

Zaxxon wrote:In my case, I went with Enphase microinverters which come with a 25-year warranty.

I looked into several of them and I have doubts they'll warrant it for the vast majority of cases which will cause it to fail (overloads/lightning strikes/etc.).

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Thu May 29, 2014 10:58 pm

So put in a physical relay. I totally understand that it's a safety issue. It's a safety issue with automatic generators too.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu May 29, 2014 11:10 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:So put in a physical relay. I totally understand that it's a safety issue. It's a safety issue with automatic generators too.

But the power company needs to be in control - the only way for it to work is to go house to house and flip people onto the solar panels. It just won't happen. If you want to be grid-tied you have to play by their rules. I know it sounds stupid but from the point of view of the utility there is no other way.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Thu May 29, 2014 11:43 pm

But they don't go house to house and flip people onto their generators. What is magical about electricity produced by gasoline that they can accomplish this magical safety transfer, but solar electricity is impossible? The grid goes down, it flips an automatic transfer switch and the solar only feeds the local panel. Why is this impossible? Why doesn't the utility have to control automatic transfer switches for other power sources that can electrocute workers?

Biyobi · Post by **Biyobi** » Fri May 30, 2014 5:03 am

The panel works the same way with solar and gas generators: during a blackout every meter prevents uploads. But from what I understand, solar panels are either "on" and generating as much power as they can, or "off" and generate nothing. You can't throttle their output like you can a gas generator. A 6kw system is going to generate 6kw, even if you only are using 5kw at the moment. In addition to keeping the lights on at night, the battery is there to absorb any extra juice you aren't using so you don't melt your electrical system while the power company has your upload blocked.

Or I could be wrong.