Deadwood

[Rip]

Actually by the time it was over I kinda liked Swearengen, it was Tolliver I couldn't stand.

I think you should be coming up on some of the Mr Wu stuff which I thought was fun stuff.

Right in the f**cking front door.

Oh and I would suggest watching this after you have watched the Wu stuff to understand the redeeming quality of some characters that on the face seem to not have any.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKtsRadqqdU

[Smoove_B]

Without trying to spoil too much, the brother and sister (well, at least the sister) are not as innocent as it all seems.

I'd watch Kristen Bell read from a telephone book, but yeah...keep watching.

[GreenGoo]

McShane did an amazing job as Swearengen. How in the hell do you make a character that mean and nasty so fascinating and, at times, someone you root for? McShane's performance was just brilliant.

Yes, I was very excited after the first episode and ran to tell my wife about the show. The acting, by literally everyone, is fantastic.

At one point I texted my wife "The woman who plays Calamity Jane is fantastic!" and she's just a secondary character.

Sorry for the mispelling of Swearengen. I could have swore he was called Swearenger.

[McNutt]

I guess I don't understand what you're finding abhorrent. Is it that there is prostitution (some of it probably forced) or because you feel like all women are portrayed that way. I agree with the former but not with the latter.

[GreenGoo]

Actually by the time it was over I kinda liked Swearengen, it was Tolliver I couldn't stand.

I think you should be coming up on some of the Mr Wu stuff which I thought was fun stuff.

Right in the f**cking front door.

Cool. I liked that they just dumped bodies into the pigpen. They didn't even bother to butcher them first. Crazy disregard for human life and really set the tone for the show.

Incidentally I mentioned to my wife that everyone is so loathsome that when they show even the most minor bit of humanity it's a huge deal. My wife's response was "like Drumpf!".

There have been a few times where Swearengen shows the tiniest bit of humanity. Sometimes so tiny you're not even sure it was there.

Very well written, directed and even better acted show.

[McNutt]

Swearengen definitely has some touching moments of humanity that make you forget what a terrible person he is. Not Tolliver though. That man is pure evil without a bit of good in him.

[GreenGoo]

I guess I don't understand what you're finding abhorrent. Is it that there is prostitution (some of it probably forced) or because you feel like all women are portrayed that way. I agree with the former but not with the latter.

So far there are 2 women characters that aren't whores. One is an opium addict and the other an alcoholic (in a show about flawed people these aren't huge negatives). Trixie is at least is developing as a character and the madame across the street hasn't been shown in a degrading light, yet. All the rest are just product to be sold to service men.

I find the casual mistreatment of women distracting from the story. As I said, it may be accurate but systemic degradation and abuse is a very uncomfortable and distracting (to me) backdrop for story telling, especially when the degradation and abuse is not the story being told.

[GreenGoo]

Swearengen definitely has some touching moments of humanity that make you forget what a terrible person he is. Not Tolliver though. That man is pure evil without a bit of good in him.

I'm not there yet (his business just arrived 2 or so episodes ago) but it's clear he's no one's friend already. No real indication of evil yet though.

[Rip]

Well if you like Calamity there is some really good stuff coming up.

I think that character and E. B. Farnum were two of the most well acted. It takes real talent to play oddball character like that well.

[Rip]

I guess I don't understand what you're finding abhorrent. Is it that there is prostitution (some of it probably forced) or because you feel like all women are portrayed that way. I agree with the former but not with the latter.

So far there are 2 women characters that aren't whores. One is an opium addict and the other an alcoholic (in a show about flawed people these aren't huge negatives). Trixie is at least is developing as a character and the madame across the street hasn't been shown in a degrading light, yet. All the rest are just product to be sold to service men.

I find the casual mistreatment of women distracting from the story. As I said, it may be accurate but systemic degradation and abuse is a very uncomfortable and distracting (to me) backdrop for story telling, especially when the degradation and abuse is not the story being told.

Wait for it, there is female character depth coming soon.

[GreenGoo]

Well if you like Calamity there is some really good stuff coming up.

I think that character and E. B. Farnum were two of the most well acted. It takes real talent to play oddball character like that well.

Crap, I meant to mention E.B. in my "this show is really well acted" post. He's awesome, although the actor has played this sort of wormy, downtrodden but with a tiny bit of spine somewhere else, I'm just not sure where. It doesn't really matter though because he does it so well.

I assume something bad is coming his way though because he has started muttering under his breath.

[Blackhawk]

Trixie was meant to appear in that episode, and only that episode. It was actually a historical moment - a prostitute named Trixie shooting a john in the head. She worked the character so well, though, that she became a series regular, and has a fantastic character arc.

Yes, it was historical that those women without someone to provide for them were often forced into prostitution, and that it wasn't a good life. The show does go out of its way, though, to show the alternatives. Trixie, Joanie, Jane, Alma Garret, the tutor Alma hires (I'm keeping this spoiler free) - all show either the other side of the tracks, or strong women fighting against that life for themselves.

And yes, Al is designed to be utterly despicable.

[GreenGoo]

Wait for it, there is female character depth coming soon.

To be clear, I don't think the *show* is misogynist. And they could have a number of strong female characters but the constant references to pussy in an objectifying way would still bother me. It's not even specifically objectifying, which can be done in a more clinical and less emotional way. It's the near universal attitude that whores are barely human and certainly not something to worry about treating them as such. You can treat an object with love and affection, or you can treat an object with total disregard as a receptacle for cum. The show objectifies in the latter way.

In any case, it was the seeming plotline of Swearengen trapping the sister into a life of degradation that put me off my feed. If that doesn't happen or there are reasons that it's not as bad as I feared, great.

If the prostitutes (which are a near constant backdrop of the show through the first 8 or so episodes) develop into people, even better. Right now they are product to be sold and abused. It's distracting, because that level of shitty life is USUALLY the story itself, not the backdrop. It's like watching Caesar while gruesome gladiator battles are constantly in view over his shoulder. Yeah, Caesar, tax discussion is great and all, but are you aware that unmitigated human suffering is happening just a few feet behind you? Every single time you're in a shot?

[Smoove_B]

Swearengen definitely has some touching moments of humanity that make you forget what a terrible person he is. Not Tolliver though. That man is pure evil without a bit of good in him.

100% truth. That's what makes Swearengen such a great character. But neither one of them have anything on the character coming in Season 3.

Spoiler:

Hearst

[Rip]

Wait for it, there is female character depth coming soon.

To be clear, I don't think the *show* is misogynist. And they could have a number of strong female characters but the constant references to pussy in an objectifying way would still bother me. It's not even specifically objectifying, which can be done in a more clinical and less emotional way. It's the near universal attitude that whores are barely human and certainly not something to worry about treating them as such. You can treat an object with love and affection, or you can treat an object with total disregard as a receptacle for cum. The show objectifies in the latter way.

In any case, it was the seeming plotline of Swearengen trapping the sister into a life of degradation that put me off my feed. If that doesn't happen or there are reasons that it's not as bad as I feared, great.

If the prostitutes (which are a near constant backdrop of the show through the first 8 or so episodes) develop into people, even better. Right now they are product to be sold and abused. It's distracting, because that level of shitty life is USUALLY the story itself, not the backdrop. It's like watching Caesar while gruesome gladiator battles are constantly in view over his shoulder. Yeah, Caesar, tax discussion is great and all, but are you aware that unmitigated human suffering is happening just a few feet behind you? Every single time you're in a shot?

It helps to amplify just how huge a step it is for the other women to avoid that life though. You can't appreciate the sheer bravery of these women until you experience the world they perform these simple acts in.

Something as simple as setting up a school for a half dozen kids is a humongous hurdle in that world and I don't think the telling of stories like that would have the same impact unless you are painfully aware of just how perilous and vicious the environment in which it is done is.

I know it feels gratuitous at first but when you have traversed the story I am confident you will appreciate how important setting the table was.

[McNutt]

That spoilered character is great too.

Swearengen - does really bad stuff because he feels he needs to in order to stay in power
Tolliver - does really bad stuff because he just likes doing bad stuff.
Spoilered character - does really bad stuff because everyone else is beneath him and he has no concern for the little people.

[GreenGoo]

It helps to amplify just how huge a step it is for the other women to avoid that life though. You can't appreciate the sheer bravery of these women until you experience the world they perform these simple acts in.

Something as simple as setting up a school for a half dozen kids is a humongous hurdle in that world and I don't think the telling of stories like that would have the same impact unless you are painfully aware of just how perilous and vicious the environment in which it is done is.

I know it feels gratuitous at first but when you have traversed the story I am confident you will appreciate how important setting the table was.

I can see that and there is plenty of death and destruction to let us know how crappy a world it was besides that, so I fully understand and support "setting the mood".

The problem with your explanation is that it doesn't exist in the series, yet. There is no indication that this is laying the ground work for anything. It's like having really offensive 1970's wallpaper on the walls of the room that scenes are shot in. It's glaring, it's gross, and it's constant. A couple of scenes of debauchery and suffering and the scene is set. The problem (and I fully admit it's my problem, not something I think other people need to care about) is that it's in every single episode, often multiple times.

And just to clarify even more, I'm not looking for women's rights in a historical setting. I don't necessarily *want* strong women characters in and of themselves, unless they make for compelling storytelling.

My problem is not that prostitution exists (it did and does) and prostitutes are treated poorly (they are and were), it's that it's treated so nonchalantly AND shown constantly.

It's one thing to show boobs because it's HBO and people like boobs so you find reason to show boobs, and quite another for those boobs to be on constant (obviously I'm exaggerating a little, but it's glaringly often) display in mostly degrading circumstances. And by boobs I mean naked women.

[GreenGoo]

Oh, and the random terrible stuff happening to people are mostly part of the story being told. Almost always to a character with speaking lines, and often core to a particular story line.

The prostitutes are just nameless, voiceless bodies being fucked in the background.

by episode 8 some prostitutes have some minor speaking scenes, and maybe given a name, but up until then, not so much.

It may be that the rest of the show isn't like this, and that's where some of our differing views are coming from. I have 8ish episodes and you guys have multiple seasons.

And just a reminder that I didn't make this observation or complaint until I thought Swearengen was going to enslave a young teenage orphaned girl which is what tipped me over the edge.

[Blackhawk]

To be honest, Swearengen is like that sometimes. Sometimes he's worse. Occasionally you see that it bothers him a tiny bit. He's also (usually) the bad guy, and they spent the early part of the series establishing just how despicable he is. Then again, there are some points where you see a little bit of a different side of him.

Spoiler:

Jewel

[GreenGoo]

You'll have to remind me who jewel is. I have an inkling but I'm not good with names. Maybe all the prostitutes have names and I've just forgotten.

Anyway, yeah, Swearengen is not a good guy even if it turns out fancypants across the street is worse.

[hentzau]

You'll have to remind me who jewel is. I have an inkling but I'm not good with names. Maybe all the prostitutes have names and I've just forgotten.

Anyway, yeah, Swearengen is not a good guy even if it turns out fancypants across the street is worse.

The handicapped girl that sweeps his floors.

[McNutt]

Swearengen also showed humanity to

Spoiler:

The preacher who kept having seizures.

[GreenGoo]

Thanks. She's the one who gets the new gun for Trixie before Trixie gives it up.

E.B. has a line about Jewel not being available in the morning because that's when Swearengen likes to berate her or something like that. I thought it was funny because how rotten a scoundrel do you have to be to schedule your maliciousness.

Considering Swearengen just offered the teenaged boy 2 bits to do the job that you often see Jewel doing, this should be interesting.

[Smoove_B]

The actress that played Jewel was Blair's cousin Geri on The Facts of Life. Yeah, I'm old. So what?

Her name is

Spoiler:

Geri Jewell

. Nifty, eh?

[GreenGoo]

Probably not a coincidence, is how I view it.

[Smoove_B]

[GreenGoo]

Watched the episode tonight. Hope to have time to comment on it tomorrow.

[GreenGoo]

Ok, better post before I watch another one and forget.

Actually, I had made mental notes while watching but they already seem less important or worth writing down.

Let's see.

It was episode 7, so everything I said about having only watched 8 episodes was really only about watching 6 episodes.

I had turned off the show mere moments before Swearengen indicates Jewel as the current sweeper. So while I made the connection, if I had watched for a few seconds more it would have been explicitly explained to me.

I didn't recognize Kristen Bell as the younger sister. I don't feel bad about it because reasons. She was 24 when this was filmed, if anyone is keeping track.

When Bell's character showed up across the road (I can't remember the other saloon name. The two are the Gem (which I always heard as Gym) and...something) and spoke to the madame there I was not impressed and thought this was barely better than my imagination had feared it would be. I thought I had been betrayed by you hackasses. When the brother and sister talk about taking one or both saloons ("why not both?") I was like "oh, that's what they mean. Good". So that made it much, much better and easier for me to watch.

When Bell's character kept referring to sex as "stick it in me", as in "If you want to stick it in me again tomorrow I start receiving at 11" I found it a strangely wonderful bit of dialogue. It's some weird combination of ignorance, innocence and practicality. Mostly it is just such a foreign way to talk about sex that it added to the unique charms of the show.

When I say things like "wonderful" or "charm" I mean that it increases the entertainment value of the show, not that I like the term. It's the same thing with all the "cocksucking" talk. I find the constant "cocksucking" this and "cocksucking" that to be a little off putting, but it's part of the "charm" of the show.

So it's not so much that I "enjoyed" the phrase "stick it in me" as much as I think it creates a certain atmosphere that works with the rest of the show.

Anyway, I don't think there was much else going on, that I remember.

Since "Montana" went toe to toe with Swearengen and I don't hear much talk about him from you guys, and I KNOW Swearengen is around for the long haul, I'm guessing Swearengen comes out on top of that exchange. Which is too bad, you can't help but like Montana as he seems to be the only one with any sense of right or wrong and the backbone to do anything about it.

I look forward to seeing how the brother/sister plotline turns out, and how the 2 saloons differ in how they deal with it.

[Blackhawk]

You're in for lots of surprises. Making predictions in Deadwood is like making predictions in Game of Thrones.

Unless you know the actual history and who lives or dies, of course.

[GreenGoo]

You're in for lots of surprises. Making predictions in Deadwood is like making predictions in Game of Thrones.

Unless you know the actual history and who lives or dies, of course.

I'm not even sure what country it's based in, so I'm good from a historical perspective.

The only prediction I made is one I didn't like so I'm hoping that your response means that I'm wrong, which would be great. Fantastic even.

I'm kind of the stage of wanting to read episode synopsis to learn what's going to happen faster or just relaxing and watching them as I have time for them.

In any case, I'm sure I'll watch another episode tonight.

[hentzau]

You're making me want to go back and re-watch the show now.

I really need to get my basement cleaned up so that I can watch TV while painting and not have to worry about my kids wandering by. Not that they haven't heard that language in school, its just off-putting when a "cocksucker!" blasts out while they are walking by the dining room.

[Blackhawk]

I studied the period quite a bit when I was younger, and the specifics of the location quite a bit a couple of years ago (for a Deadlands RPG campaign of all things.)

Deadwood, Dakota Territory is in what is now South Dakota, not too far from Mount Rushmore. I've never been there, but I've been within a few miles of it.

They took liberties with the minor characters and their interactions, but the big events are historical. The look and the clothing is actually spot on. The Gem Theater and the Bella Union are real. Nuttal & Mann's #10 saloon is real. Bullock & Star hardware, too.

Off the top of my head, Jane Cannary (Calamity Jane), "Wild" Bill Hickock, Sol Star, Seth Bullock, Al Swearengen, EB Farnum, Cutty McCutface, Johnny, Sam Fields ("Nigger General"), McCall, Merrick, Tom Nuttal, the preacher, Charlie Utter, and several characters who might be spoilers were all real. Some of them die before the show is done, others lived long enough to have met my father (didn't, but could have.)

Here's Seth (Montana)



The Gem Theater. Al Swearengen is the buggy driver on the left, the only picture of him I know of:



And the town itself (big image, click)

[hentzau]

I've kind of used Deadwood as my inspiration for Zenda. That's why I use a green mat vs a desert/dust mat, and put trees around the edges of the town.

I also love how you see the town grow as the show goes on, where you had tents in the streets that eventually turn into buildings.

[hepcat]

Ah heck yeah, the Deadwood movie is official.

Filming starts in October, with a 2019 release date. Looks like the entire living original cast is returning.

[Rip]

About goddamned time those cunts and cocksuckers got this done.

[Smoove_B]

Ah heck yeah, the Deadwood movie is official.

Filming starts in October, with a 2019 release date. Looks like the entire living original cast is returning.

Production has started!

Here’s the confirmed list of returning cast members and, as you can see, it’s the entire core group: Molly Parker (Alma Ellsworth), Paula Malcomson (Trixie), John Hawkes (Sol Star), Anna Gunn (Martha Bullock), Dayton Callie (Charlie Utter), Brad Dourif (Doc Cochran), Robin Weigert (“Calamity” Jane Canary), William Sanderson (E.B. Farnum), Kim Dickens (Joanie Stubbs) and Gerald McRaney (George Hearst). The film will also feature new cast member, Jade Pettyjohn (playing Caroline).

Powers Boothe, who played Swearengen’s nemesis, the cruel Cy Tolliver, passed away last year.

[hepcat]

Mr. Wu is missing from that list. I refuse to celebrate until I know he'll be around to mangle any and all swearing in the English language.

[Isgrimnur]

Mr. Wu is missing from that list. I refuse to celebrate until I know he'll be around to mangle any and all swearing in the English language.

Ask and ye shall receive:

[hepcat]

Keone Young is da man!

Spoiler:

cocksucker!

[hentzau]

Damn. No Timothy Olyphant? Gonna miss me some Seth Bullock...