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tesla motors

Post by shaggydoug » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:11 pm

Tomorrow is the day for the big unveil......

http://www.teslamotors.com

If only I were independently wealthy.

- shaggy

<edit....woops...typed today...meant tomorrow....I hate it when I do that>
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Post by Smoove_B » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:14 pm

Fuel economy will find a waaaaay....fuel economy will find a way back to you - I know.

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Post by Fretmute » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:15 pm

What they're not telling you is that these vehicles run on hair and tacky solos.

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Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:18 pm

Martin Eberhard! Rocket Book!
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Re: tesla motors

Post by Bob » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:59 pm

shaggydoug wrote:If only I were independently wealthy.
Because you want to buy one, or because you want to start an internet investment scam of your own?
Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

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Post by shaggydoug » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:05 pm

Uhhh.....buy one.

Call me clueless....what is the internet investment scam here? Or am I missing the obvious joke.

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Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:16 pm

shaggydoug wrote:Uhhh.....buy one.

Call me clueless....what is the internet investment scam here? Or am I missing the obvious joke.

- shaggy
I don't see a scam. It's just that I remembered that guy's name. Rocket Book was kind of dead tech from the bubble days. NuvoMedia, Eberhard's company, was bought out for a fair amount of cash (actually shares) in the euphoria. Don't think the Rocket Book ever made it to market.

This seems like a very ambitious project that may end up the same way, hyped, loved, sold, shelved. Not from any intentional scam but from good marketing and a too-good-to-refuse offer.

Or it might yield a kickass electric car.


FWIW, Tesla Motors isn't publicly traded. The money was raised from VC groups.
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Post by Bob » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:22 pm

shaggydoug wrote:Uhhh.....buy one.

Call me clueless....what is the internet investment scam here? Or am I missing the obvious joke.
I've learned to be wary of things that sound too good to be true. There are a lot of suckers with money out there, and a lot of people willing to take advantage of them.

That said, this does look like a legitmate effort and product.
Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

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Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:27 pm

Bob wrote:
shaggydoug wrote:Uhhh.....buy one.

Call me clueless....what is the internet investment scam here? Or am I missing the obvious joke.
I've learned to be wary of things that sound too good to be true. There are a lot of suckers with money out there, and a lot of people willing to take advantage of them.

That said, this does look like a legitmate effort and product.
And there is a good industry in creating vaporware startups and selling them.

We'll see.
Great cars and the companies that build them are not made overnight and so we are not yet ready to announce our delivery date. We can provide a bit of a peek in terms of the vehicle's specifications:
[snip]

On July 20th, you'll be able to see the car and learn about how and when you will be able to drive your very own.
If they don't have a delivery date on the 20th, I'd be skeptical.
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Post by Smoove_B » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:37 pm

Fretmute wrote:What they're not telling you is that these vehicles run on hair and tacky solos.
Sadly, I guess you and I are the only ones that can appreciate Jeff Keith humor . Well, we'll see who's laughing in late 2006 / early 2007.

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Post by shaggydoug » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:50 pm

It seems to me that 1 big difference with this company vs. others is that they are pricing themselves out of the average joe with their initial product offering. Its not like gizmondo.

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Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:58 pm

shaggydoug wrote:It seems to me that 1 big difference with this company vs. others is that they are pricing themselves out of the average joe with their initial product offering. Its not like gizmondo.

- shaggy
Like the Moller Skycar?
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Post by shaggydoug » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:04 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
shaggydoug wrote:It seems to me that 1 big difference with this company vs. others is that they are pricing themselves out of the average joe with their initial product offering. Its not like gizmondo.

- shaggy
Like the Moller Skycar?
So....back to your earlier point.......tesla is NOT publicly traded while moller is. Moller could be scamming the average joe via that mechanism. Where's the scam on the average joe here?

- shaggy
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Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:09 pm

shaggydoug wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
shaggydoug wrote:It seems to me that 1 big difference with this company vs. others is that they are pricing themselves out of the average joe with their initial product offering. Its not like gizmondo.

- shaggy
Like the Moller Skycar?
So....back to your earlier point.......tesla is NOT publicly traded while moller is. Moller could be scamming the average joe via that mechanism. Where's the scam on the average joe here?

- shaggy
I never said there was a scam. I brought up the Skycar to show that out of the park pricing doesn't necessarily mean the product is there.
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Post by shaggydoug » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:27 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:I never said there was a scam. I brought up the Skycar to show that out of the park pricing doesn't necessarily mean the product is there.
And I don't think I ever said that out of the park pricing meant that the product was there. I was only talking about the "bilkage factor" (trademark pending). I'm trying to ask and hopefully get an answer to the "who is the company trying to scam" question. You think it's the VCs?

- shaggy
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Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:34 pm

shaggydoug wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:I never said there was a scam. I brought up the Skycar to show that out of the park pricing doesn't necessarily mean the product is there.
And I don't think I ever said that out of the park pricing meant that the product was there. I was only talking about the "bilkage factor" (trademark pending). I'm trying to ask and hopefully get an answer to the "who is the company trying to scam" question. You think it's the VCs?

- shaggy
Again, I never said it was a scam. I do think it's possible they're just trying to get far enough to get bought out. The VCs would be the gamblers, winning if the company is bought for a significant amount. It's also possible we'll see their cars on the in the fall. The performance specs make me skeptical.
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Post by Bob » Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:31 pm

shaggydoug wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:I never said there was a scam. I brought up the Skycar to show that out of the park pricing doesn't necessarily mean the product is there.
And I don't think I ever said that out of the park pricing meant that the product was there. I was only talking about the "bilkage factor" (trademark pending). I'm trying to ask and hopefully get an answer to the "who is the company trying to scam" question. You think it's the VCs?
If this is a scam, which I'm willing to concede it doesn't appear to be right now, it would be either the venture capitialists or a future potential buyer (of the whole operation) who was being scammed not the average joe.

Scamming the average joe is small potatoes. Scamming VCs can net you millions.
Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

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Post by shaggydoug » Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:49 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:Again, I never said it was a scam. I do think it's possible they're just trying to get far enough to get bought out.
Honestly, I would be shocked if that wasn't exactly what they were trying to do. Get far enough for 1 of the big automakers to take them out. Isn't that modus operandi for 99.99% of all VC funded startups?

But then again....this has the smellings of the next installment of Chain Reaction.

- shaggy
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Post by shaggydoug » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:23 pm

pictures and article here:

wired

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Post by Sectoid » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:45 am

I wonder if the car will come with a Death Ray. Then I'd buy it, no matter the cost.
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Post by shaggydoug » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:25 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:If they don't have a delivery date on the 20th, I'd be skeptical.
Available for purchase in these areas soon:

Northern & Southern
California
Summer 2007

Chicago
Fall 2007

New York and Miami
Late 2007

Other Cities
Stay Tuned

We will begin accepting deposits on orders shortly.
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Post by rshetts1 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:08 am

Damn thats a sharp looking car. Wonder how big the price tags gonna be.
$40k maybe?
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Post by LawBeefaroni » Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:20 am


Chicago
Fall 2007
If this is true, I'll buy one. Assuming they price it somewhat reasonably.
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Post by shaggydoug » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:15 pm

The rumors (nothing official) are in the realm of $80K. There is an additional $10K if you buy outside their "service areas" for shipping and what not.

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Re: tesla motors

Post by Zaxxon » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:12 pm

Rise!

I visited my local Tesla store this weekend. Damn, the Model S is one attractive vehicle.

That is all.

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Re: tesla motors

Post by Baroquen » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:33 pm

Nearly a 6.5 yr thread revival... well played sir. :D

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Re: tesla motors

Post by LordMortis » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:39 pm

Zaxxon wrote:Rise!

I visited my local Tesla store this weekend. Damn, the Model S is one attractive vehicle.

That is all.
Base Price: 2013 Tesla Model S: $49,990
Not as bad as I thought it would be but still not something I'll ever have without winning the lotto.
Acceleration 0-60 mph s: 5.6 seconds
1/4 mile time 14 seconds
Emissions 0 g/km
Range 300 miles
Top Speed 120 mph
Nice. How much power (to bear weight) does it have? I didn't see anything about that.

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Re: tesla motors

Post by Fretmute » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:44 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Base Price: 2013 Tesla Model S: $49,990
Not as bad as I thought it would be but still not something I'll ever have without winning the lotto.
Acceleration 0-60 mph s: 5.6 seconds
1/4 mile time 14 seconds
Emissions 0 g/km
Range 300 miles
Top Speed 120 mph
You quoted the base price and the top of the line ($70k) range. Sneaky!

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Re: tesla motors

Post by geezer » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:45 pm

By almost all accounts it's a great, great car. Useable range (200+ miles), real performance and attractive, if not groundbreaking design. If I was in the market for a luxo-sedan this would be very high up on my list.

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Re: tesla motors

Post by LordMortis » Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:50 pm

Fretmute wrote:
LordMortis wrote:
Base Price: 2013 Tesla Model S: $49,990
Not as bad as I thought it would be but still not something I'll ever have without winning the lotto.
Acceleration 0-60 mph s: 5.6 seconds
1/4 mile time 14 seconds
Emissions 0 g/km
Range 300 miles
Top Speed 120 mph
You quoted the base price and the top of the line ($70k) range. Sneaky!
Not meant to be sneaky. Pulled from here (not originally linked because you have to answer a survey to get in):

http://www.rsportscars.com/tesla/2013-tesla-model-s/" target="_blank

No mention is made that the specs weren't from the base model, although reading down, I see that they sell different batter options and 300 Miles is the top battery, so yeah, I'm guess those aren't the specs for the $50,000 (after gub'ment rebate) model.

Also I want the one that appropriately looks like the ubiquitous 70s Slot car.

Enlarge Image

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Re: tesla motors

Post by Zaxxon » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:03 pm

It's 5.6 sec for 0-60 on the top battery, and 6.5 on the base. What I was getting at with my original comment (aside from looks) was that even given the high pricing, the total cost of ownership compares much better than I had expected it to.

Charging is *cheap*. Like, incredibly, amazingly cheap. The cost of 125,000 miles at the Model S's 283 wH/mi, given $0.11/kWh (national average) is about $3,900. That's total fuel cost for 125,000 miles. Compare that to a vehicle that averages 22 mpg, at $3.35/gal (my current local average)--about $19,000 for 125,000 miles. And I think 22 mpg is pretty generous to assume for something that competes in size and speed with the Model S, as is assuming $3.35 lifetime gas cost. And this is all assuming that one never uses the free charging options that are popping up more and more (most Walgreens around here have free EV chargers, Tesla is installing their own along interstates, hippie malls have them, etc)

So there's $15k in savings. Add on another $7.5k in federal tax credits, another $5kish here in Colorado in state tax credits, and lower maintenance ($3,800 covers the vehicle for 8 years--everything but tires.). 125k miles of 'normal' vehicle maintenance will be $6k-$10k on average for 'normal' vehicles, for another $2k-$6k savings for the Tesla.

Depreciation involves some guesswork at this point, but Edmund's seems to think it'll be similar to Toyota/Honda, maintaining somewhere around 30% of its value after 8 years. That eats a little more of the price difference since 30% of an $80k car will be more than 30% of a $40k car.

Insurance is comparable to 'normal' cars based on the Tesla forum comments from S owners.

The long and short of it is that an $80k Model S has an 8-year/125k TCO of about $67k, while a $37k Toyota Highlander has an 8-year/125k TCO of about... $67k. Again there's some guesswork involved here, but it's fairly clear that there's more to the story than sticker shock would suggest. (Why am I comparing to a Highlander? Because I'm also intrigued by the Model X--in the unlikely event that I actually were to seriously consider a Tesla, I'd be selling myself and my wife on its worth compared to ye olde Toyota Family SUV.)

The bottom could drop out of the EV market, but I think it unlikely given that Roadsters have been around for a few years and haven't had major issues, the Volt is reviewing well, the S just won Car of the Year from multiple publications, Toyota is expanding their plug-in/full-EV range, etc. There's of course a whole host of other things to consider (can you live with a 300-mile range? Will Tesla exist in 8 years?). But I did not expect to leave that store, do some math, and find an 8-year TCO comparable to a Highlander.

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Re: tesla motors

Post by Fretmute » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:12 pm

Zaxxon wrote:Depreciation involves some guesswork at this point, but Edmund's seems to think it'll be similar to Toyota/Honda, maintaining somewhere around 30% of its value after 8 years. That eats a little more of the price difference since 30% of an $80k car will be more than 30% of a $40k car.
Isn't 8 years in about when you're supposed to spend a pile of money to replace the battery pack?

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Re: tesla motors

Post by Zaxxon » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:20 pm

Fretmute wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:Depreciation involves some guesswork at this point, but Edmund's seems to think it'll be similar to Toyota/Honda, maintaining somewhere around 30% of its value after 8 years. That eats a little more of the price difference since 30% of an $80k car will be more than 30% of a $40k car.
Isn't 8 years in about when you're supposed to spend a pile of money to replace the battery pack?
Not according to Tesla. Who knows whether their projections are accurate, but they told me they expect it to last around 175k-200k miles. They also estimate that the current-gen top battery pack will be about $12k to replace 8 years from now, which is much less expensive than today's cost. (They actually just announced a $12k warranty option that gives you a new battery anytime after 8 years.)

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Re: tesla motors

Post by Vorret » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:46 pm

That is one nice looking car.
Like, really nice.

I'd save so much money if I had an electric car in Quebec, our electricity is dirt cheap and our gas is crazy expensive.

Too bad I just bought a CX-5.
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Re: tesla motors

Post by Chaz » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:50 pm

The math makes sense, but I'm still wondering about the realities of having to charge the batteries, particularly when away from home. For my daily commute, as long as I can get a full charge in 6-8 hours, it'd be fine. But what happens if I need to take it somewhere 180 miles away? If the estimate on range is wrong (on the 200 mile battery), I wind up getting a tow. And can I just run an extension cord to the car if I'm visiting my mom?

I want to get behind a non-gas-powered car, but it just feels like it's still not super realistic for anything other than an around-town kinda car, and it's pretty expensive for that.
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Re: tesla motors

Post by Zaxxon » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:51 pm

LordMortis wrote:Nice. How much power (to bear weight) does it have? I didn't see anything about that.
Back to this question--I don't know my ass from my vehicle power metrics, but it can out-drag a BMW M5. That's the top-end Model S vs the M5, of course.

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Re: tesla motors

Post by Zaxxon » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:56 pm

Chaz wrote:The math makes sense, but I'm still wondering about the realities of having to charge the batteries, particularly when away from home.
I'm with you, and that's the sort of question I'm wrestling with now.
For my daily commute, as long as I can get a full charge in 6-8 hours, it'd be fine. But what happens if I need to take it somewhere 180 miles away? If the estimate on range is wrong (on the 200 mile battery), I wind up getting a tow. And can I just run an extension cord to the car if I'm visiting my mom?
At home on a 40-amp outlet, you can get 31 miles of range per hour of charge. So on a 'normal' day, 6-8 hours is probably plenty.

Yes, you can just plug into a normal outlet, but then you're getting on the order of 5 miles of range per hour. So charging at Mom's is doable, but you're not gonna want to require a 200-mile recharge when you get there unless you really like your Mom. :)
I want to get behind a non-gas-powered car, but it just feels like it's still not super realistic for anything other than an around-town kinda car, and it's pretty expensive for that.
I think for many people, that's true. In my case specifically, it'd be our 2nd car so the range is less of an issue. 99.9% of our trips are < 250 miles round trip, so the fact that we would have another car for those 0.1% of trips makes range not an issue. But I concur that even with the favorable TCO, it's expensive for a 2nd car--unless one is happy with the very base model and no upgrades.

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Re: tesla motors

Post by Zaxxon » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:45 pm

I had the opportunity to test drive the Performance model last night with a friend.

Holy. Shit.

Calling this thing a car is rather insulting. It does happen to have 4 wheels and some seats, but it's just an incredible piece of machinery. Torque is instant, acceleration is completely effortless, the only sound is a slight whine when gunning it, and the cabin tech is so far beyond what anyone else is doing as to be rather ridiculous.

If Telsa can come through with their 'family sedan' due to be unveiled next year and can price it $10-$20k below the S, I think their sales will go through the roof.

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Re: tesla motors

Post by Vorret » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:48 pm

Zaxxon wrote:I had the opportunity to test drive the Performance model last night with a friend.

Holy. Shit.

Calling this thing a car is rather insulting. It does happen to have 4 wheels and some seats, but it's just an incredible piece of machinery. Torque is instant, acceleration is completely effortless, the only sound is a slight whine when gunning it, and the cabin tech is so far beyond what anyone else is doing as to be rather ridiculous.

If Telsa can come through with their 'family sedan' due to be unveiled next year and can price it $10-$20k below the S, I think their sales will go through the roof.
I agree.
I wonder how good it would work in harsh winter conditions... especially how it would provide heat
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Re: tesla motors

Post by Zaxxon » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:51 pm

Vorret wrote:I agree.
I wonder how good it would work in harsh winter conditions... especially how it would provide heat
What I've read from current owners is that if it's below freezing, the range takes a 5-10% hit and regenerative braking is reduced until the battery is up to 'normal' operating temperature. I haven't seen anyone complaining about the heating, though.

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