Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriously

[Kraken]

Kraken: she's pretty, in a feral Barbie way. Playmate of the Year '93 or so, parlayed to TV

I know who she used to be 20 years ago. I'm not aware that she has anything else going for her except being controversial on this one topic...so her schtick is about being relevant in a celebrity way. Facts are beside the point.

She's controversial the way Westboro is controversial: Batshit insane.

And yet here we all are talking about her. Mission. Fucking. Accomplished.

[Turtle]

Sorry, but if people didn't bring up the negative, then the only talk would be all the mindless drones she has enthralled.

Not all talk is a bad thing. And yes, sometimes there is such a thing as bad press.

[El Guapo]

And she is also reversing her initial position that the MMR shots caused Evan’s autism.

You don't say? She's taking the bold stance that the immunization shots didn't cause something that didn't happen?

Seriously though, even though reality had to hit her on the head for it to happen, it is good that she's publicly revising her stance on vaccinations.

[hepcat]

"Feral Barbie" is now permanently ensconced in my lexicon.

[stessier]

And she is also reversing her initial position that the MMR shots caused Evan’s autism.

You don't say? She's taking the bold stance that the immunization shots didn't cause something that didn't happen?

Seriously though, even though reality had to hit her on the head for it to happen, it is good that she's publicly revising her stance on vaccinations.

From what I've found, her stance is now that vaccines need more study. I guess it's a step in the right direction, but not exactly a reversal.

[Chrisoc13]

And she is also reversing her initial position that the MMR shots caused Evan’s autism.

You don't say? She's taking the bold stance that the immunization shots didn't cause something that didn't happen?

Seriously though, even though reality had to hit her on the head for it to happen, it is good that she's publicly revising her stance on vaccinations.

From what I've found, her stance is now that vaccines need more study. I guess it's a step in the right direction, but not exactly a reversal.

Not to mention extremely naive as if extensive studies have not already been performed and are being performed on individual vaccinations (not to mention the mmr in particular, one of the most well understood). Just because mainstream media doesn't pick up individual studies due to lack of viewer interest or just because there is a lack of sensational documentaries performed regarding the science behind vaccinations doesn't mean they are untested. It's this kind of crap that drives me crazy.

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[silverjon]

Says the med student. Feh, what makes you think you know better than Jenny McCarthy? She's been on the TV and everything!

[El Guapo]

And she is also reversing her initial position that the MMR shots caused Evan’s autism.

You don't say? She's taking the bold stance that the immunization shots didn't cause something that didn't happen?

Seriously though, even though reality had to hit her on the head for it to happen, it is good that she's publicly revising her stance on vaccinations.

From what I've found, her stance is now that vaccines need more study. I guess it's a step in the right direction, but not exactly a reversal.

That's why I went with "revised."

Obviously she's not good friends with reality in general. But I do think it's helpful, since she's been such a prominent anti-vaccine person, to have headlines like this out there (that she's revising her anti-vaccine stance).

[stessier]

And she is also reversing her initial position that the MMR shots caused Evan’s autism.

You don't say? She's taking the bold stance that the immunization shots didn't cause something that didn't happen?

Seriously though, even though reality had to hit her on the head for it to happen, it is good that she's publicly revising her stance on vaccinations.

From what I've found, her stance is now that vaccines need more study. I guess it's a step in the right direction, but not exactly a reversal.

Not to mention extremely naive as if extensive studies have not already been performed and are being performed on individual vaccinations (not to mention the mmr in particular, one of the most well understood). Just because mainstream media doesn't pick up individual studies due to lack of viewer interest or just because there is a lack of sensational documentaries performed regarding the science behind vaccinations doesn't mean they are untested. It's this kind of crap that drives me crazy.

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Just to be clear, I wasn't agreeing with the need for more study. Just mentioning what her current view was. I don't think there is anyone in this thread who has agreed with her.

Says the med student. Feh, what makes you think you know better than Jenny McCarthy? She's been on the TV and everything!

Careful, you're going to make him stroke out.

[LawBeefaroni]

She's controversial the way Westboro is controversial: Batshit insane.

And yet here we all are talking about her. Mission. Fucking. Accomplished.

I have this inexplicable urge to watch The View and buy bath soaps...

[Chrisoc13]

No worries I didn't think you were agreeing with her.


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[Smoove_B]

From what I've found, her stance is now that vaccines need more study. I guess it's a step in the right direction, but not exactly a reversal.

Her "stance" -- like her cohorts in Generation Rescue -- is to move the goalposts. Their first cry was "It's the MMR!" When numerous epi studies proved that wasn't the case, they changed their cry to "It's the Mercury!" when that was also disproved via numerous studies, it's "Vaccines need more study!".

[naednek]

So today it was announced that there has been 9 cases of people having measles and it originated in DisneyLand. Most of the people who got it, were not vaccinated. 2 out of the 9 were too young to be vaccinated.
http://www.ktvu.com/story/27785521/9-me ... rnia-parks

I also ran into this today and while I knew it the links to autism was false, it was very informative
https://medium.com/the-nib/vaccines-wor ... e3d0f9ffd0

[Kasey Chang]

The Anti-vaxers move the goalpost by disguising it. They aren't "against" the vaccines. They are merely "questioning" the vaccines.

There's one of those "mommy blogs" that was protesting State Farm firing their spokesperson for supporting antivax, and they outright said "there are no antivax movement". They are f***ing delusional.

it's much like talking to creationists (i.e. antievolutionists) who claim they are "questioning" evolution when what they really want is teach religion as if it is science.

[LawBeefaroni]

The Anti-vaxers move the goalpost by disguising it. They aren't "against" the vaccines. They are merely "questioning" the vaccines.

Plurium interrogationum.


"Do vaccines cause autism in thousands of children every year?"

[Isgrimnur]

Betteridge's law of headlines

Any headline which ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no.
...
A headline with a question mark at the end means, in the vast majority of cases, that the story is tendentious or over-sold. It is often a scare story, or an attempt to elevate some run-of-the-mill piece of reporting into a national controversy and, preferably, a national panic. To a busy journalist hunting for real information a question mark means 'don't bother reading this bit'.

[paulbaxter]

Somehow I've been seeing a flood of anti-vax stuff lately. It drives me nuts.

I guess the facts that a) vaccines are not perfectly effective and b) like anything else in the world, carry some risks, have turned the whole thing into a cottage industry for cranks and crackpots and even a very small number of scientists. One discussion I saw today linked to a book called Vaccine Illusion (I'm not going to link it), which purports to be from someone with a PhD in immunology. I'll assume she isn't falsifying her credentials, but if you look at the reviews of her book, you'll see that she's not at all above patently misrepresenting existing research and ignoring the huge amounts of data to the contrary of her position.

I totally get that many people just aren't well informed on the issue. I'm not informed on lots of things. What I don't get is how loud the misinformation is on this topic. Ugh.

[Rip]

This is one area even I can't understand that people don't get how important vaccinations are. Kind of ironic that a nation that spends so much trying to make vaccinations available and affordable for the world would have so many of their own take such an absurd stance against vaccinations.

Also very interesting how it comes from the fringe crazies on both sides of the political spectrum.

[Smoove_B]

Somehow I've been seeing a flood of anti-vax stuff lately. It drives me nuts.

Somehow it's become a political issue now, probably as a way to try and court voters in 2016. It's depressing, frustrating and scary all at once.

[Rip]

Somehow I've been seeing a flood of anti-vax stuff lately. It drives me nuts.

Somehow it's become a political issue now, probably as a way to try and court voters in 2016. It's depressing, frustrating and scary all at once.

That is the part I don't get. Looks like an obvious loser from both sides of the aisle to coddle these nutjobs.

Here is what a smart candidate does.

Dr. Ben Carson, a likely 2016 GOP presidential contenders, believes there should be no “philosophical” or “religious” exemptions for vaccinations.

“Although I strongly believe in individual rights and the rights of parents to raise their children as they see fit, I also recognize that public health and public safety are extremely important in our society,” Carson told The Hill. “Certain communicable diseases have been largely eradicated by immunization policies in this country and we should not allow those diseases to return by foregoing safe immunization programs, for philosophical, religious or other reasons when we have the means to eradicate them.”

[Kraken]

This is one area even I can't understand that people don't get how important vaccinations are.

When a disease like measles declines to the vanishing point, people stop fearing it. If you perceive a 0% chance of contracting measles and 0.0001% chance of a vaccine reaction, then the vaccine is the greater threat. When enough people stop vaccinating and herd immunity breaks (as is happening now), people start fearing the disease again.

Thing is, measles isn't polio. Measles was a routine childhood disease in my day, along with mumps and chicken pox; I had 'em all, as did most of my peers. The overwhelming majority of cases get a fever and a rash and recover. It would be great to eradicate those diseases if we can, and whipping up some hysteria is exactly the way to do it. You can only convert anti-vaxxers by making the disease scarier than the vaccine. Consequently we need anecdotes about the outliers who died of measles. I'm seeing a lot of media doing exactly that right now.

[Pyperkub]

This is one area even I can't understand that people don't get how important vaccinations are.

When a disease like measles declines to the vanishing point, people stop fearing it. If you perceive a 0% chance of contracting measles and 0.0001% chance of a vaccine reaction, then the vaccine is the greater threat. When enough people stop vaccinating and herd immunity breaks (as is happening now), people start fearing the disease again.

Thing is, measles isn't polio. Measles was a routine childhood disease in my day, along with mumps and chicken pox; I had 'em all, as did most of my peers. The overwhelming majority of cases get a fever and a rash and recover. It would be great to eradicate those diseases if we can, and whipping up some hysteria is exactly the way to do it. You can only convert anti-vaxxers by making the disease scarier than the vaccine. Consequently we need anecdotes about the outliers who died of measles. I'm seeing a lot of media doing exactly that right now.

Technically we did eradicate measles...

[Isgrimnur]

Consequently we need anecdotes about the outliers who died of measles. I'm seeing a lot of media doing exactly that right now.

Anti-Vaccine Body Count

[LawBeefaroni]

So today it was announced that there has been 9 cases of people having measles and it originated in DisneyLand. Most of the people who got it, were not vaccinated. 2 out of the 9 were too young to be vaccinated.
http://www.ktvu.com/story/27785521/9-me ... rnia-parks

I also ran into this today and while I knew it the links to autism was false, it was very informative
https://medium.com/the-nib/vaccines-wor ... e3d0f9ffd0

Last I saw this was up past 50 cases direct at Disney and it has spread into the general population.

More than a dozen infants at a Santa Monica day care center are being quarantined after a baby was confirmed to have contracted measles, the latest case in a growing outbreak of the once-eradicated disease.

As of Monday [Feb 2nd], according to the California Department of Public Health, there were 92 confirmed cases in California, including 28 in Orange County, 21 in Los Angeles County and 13 in San Diego County. Most of the cases have been linked to the outbreak at Disneyland in December, and most of the victims had not been vaccinated.

[Grifman]

Consequently we need anecdotes about the outliers who died of measles. I'm seeing a lot of media doing exactly that right now.

Anti-Vaccine Body Count

The source of the data is the CDC which obviously can't be trusted.

[Unagi]

Technically we did eradicate measles...

See, I would say that technically we didn't.

[Blackhawk]

Right, because if we did, we wouldn't have that pesky red cube in Los Angeles.

[Kraken]

Consequently we need anecdotes about the outliers who died of measles. I'm seeing a lot of media doing exactly that right now.

Anti-Vaccine Body Count

The source of the data is the CDC which obviously can't be trusted.

Doesn't matter. The anti-vaxxers have made their decision based not on scientific data or statistics, but on fear. Until fear of the disease trumps fear of the vaccine, they won't change a decision that they're psychologically and emotionally invested in. The more you hammer them with facts, the harder they circle the wagons. We need anecdotes, dammit!

[Blackhawk]

It isn't just fear, it is ego. Accepting the vaccination argument means accepting the word of the government, the medical establishment, and 'authoritative' scientists. Denying it is rebelling against all of those things. That's appealing to the human (and especially American) psyche. It also means accepting that your special child isn't special, isn't an exception to the masses.

[Kraken]

It isn't just fear, it is ego.

That's true. It's a lifestyle choice as much as a judgment about consequences. So how do you counter that, aside from exploiting the fear angle? Facts are powerless either way...this is all about emotion and identity.

[Biyobi]

It isn't just fear, it is ego.

That's true. It's a lifestyle choice as much as a judgment about consequences. So how do you counter that, aside from exploiting the fear angle? Facts are powerless either way...this is all about emotion and identity.

Just kindly thank the parents for doing their part in removing their stupid genes from the gene pool. They'll vaccinate their kids just to spite you.

[Pyperkub]

It isn't just fear, it is ego. Accepting the vaccination argument means accepting the word of the government, the medical establishment, and 'authoritative' scientists. Denying it is rebelling against all of those things. That's appealing to the human (and especially American) psyche. It also means accepting that your special child isn't special, isn't an exception to the masses.

It's also the free rider / tragedy of the commons problem. As long as everyone else is getting vaccinated, you can piggy back on them at no cost and the risk seems better and rational.

[El Guapo]

Consequently we need anecdotes about the outliers who died of measles. I'm seeing a lot of media doing exactly that right now.

Anti-Vaccine Body Count

The source of the data is the CDC which obviously can't be trusted.

Doesn't matter. The anti-vaxxers have made their decision based not on scientific data or statistics, but on fear. Until fear of the disease trumps fear of the vaccine, they won't change a decision that they're psychologically and emotionally invested in. The more you hammer them with facts, the harder they circle the wagons. We need anecdotes, dammit!

Fear will bring them in line. Fear of this battlestation.

[Smoove_B]

I don't think fear is the answer as it will require things get worse for way more people so that visibility of illness, disability and death becomes commonplace.

The answer (IMHO) is that people that opt out of vaccines need to experience consequences, namely financial and/or inconveniences as a result of their choices. It's going to take a concerted effort on the part of doctors, school administrators and insurance companies but it can be done - it's already started. The issue right now is that so many of the objectors don't experience any type of negative outcome as a result of their choices. They don't pay higher insurance premiums, for example. Just now you're seeing parents tasked with keeping a child a home for 21 days and after pushing back (NY, CA), the courts affirmed the powers of public health practitioners. This needs to continue.

[El Guapo]

I don't think fear is the answer as it will require things get worse for way more people so that visibility of illness, disability and death becomes commonplace.

The answer (IMHO) is that people that opt out of vaccines need to experience consequences, namely financial and/or inconveniences as a result of their choices. It's going to take a concerted effort on the part of doctors, school administrators and insurance companies but it can be done - it's already started. The issue right now is that so many of the objectors don't experience any type of negative outcome as a result of their choices. They don't pay higher insurance premiums, for example. Just now you're seeing parents tasked with keeping a child a home for 21 days and after pushing back (NY, CA), the courts affirmed the powers of public health practitioners. This needs to continue.

Personal inconvenience will keep them in line. Personal inconvenience caused by this battlestation.

[Rip]

Just let the death panels deal with it.

[hentzau]

I don't think fear is the answer as it will require things get worse for way more people so that visibility of illness, disability and death becomes commonplace.

The answer (IMHO) is that people that opt out of vaccines need to experience consequences, namely financial and/or inconveniences as a result of their choices. It's going to take a concerted effort on the part of doctors, school administrators and insurance companies but it can be done - it's already started. The issue right now is that so many of the objectors don't experience any type of negative outcome as a result of their choices. They don't pay higher insurance premiums, for example. Just now you're seeing parents tasked with keeping a child a home for 21 days and after pushing back (NY, CA), the courts affirmed the powers of public health practitioners. This needs to continue.

Personal inconvenience will keep them in line. Personal inconvenience caused by this battlestation.

OK, that made me laugh.

[J.D.]

This is the most poorly-timed example of irresponsible journalism I have seen in a while. Particularly with the anti-vax movement in the news recently. C'mon Toronto Star, you're better than this. An article full of anecdotal reports with no science to back up any of the side effects presented. Awful.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015 ... finds.html

[Blackhawk]

The answer (IMHO) is that people that opt out of vaccines need to experience consequences, namely financial and/or inconveniences as a result of their choices. It's going to take a concerted effort on the part of doctors, school administrators and insurance companies but it can be done - it's already started.

This is absolutely the long-term answer. Create a situation where, if you don't vaccinate your kids, expect to have them turned away from public and private schools, and expect to spend a lot of time in walk-in clinics because no doctor will see you.

Also, a scarlet 'V' branded on your forehead so the rest of us can see you coming.

[Zaxxon]

This is absolutely the long-term answer. Create a situation where, if you don't vaccinate your kids, expect to have them turned away from public and private schools, and expect to spend a lot of time in walk-in clinics because no doctor will see you.

Also, a scarlet 'V' branded on your forehead so the rest of us can see you coming.

I'd love to see folks whose kids were voluntarily unvaccinated for no medical reason be held responsible when involved in an outbreak. EG 37 kids get measles at a Six Flags, and 27 of them were unvaccinated by choice. The other 10 had valid medical reasons (too young, allergic, whatever). The families and/or their insurance of the 27 cover the medical costs for the other ten.