Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriously

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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

Post by Kurth »

Kraken wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:It isn't just fear, it is ego.
That's true. It's a lifestyle choice as much as a judgment about consequences. So how do you counter that, aside from exploiting the fear angle? Facts are powerless either way...this is all about emotion and identity.
On NPR last night, they were reporting on the antivax movement, and one of the women they interviewed copped to this explicitly. She said that a big part of how she defined herself was as a "crunchy granola mother," and she was very much wrapped up in that scene. She said that even though she had mixed feelings on the vaccination front, she felt like giving into "modern industrialized medicine" would have been a betrayal of her social media friends and her identity. So, she refused vaccines for her kid. Years later, her daughter was diagnosed as autistic anyway. So now she feels she has proven that its not the vaccins that are causing autism, but something else, and she's now had her daughter and subsequent children vaccinated. Way to go scientific method!!!

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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

Post by Isgrimnur »

Depraved indifference?
To constitute depraved indifference, the defendant's conduct must be 'so wanton, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, and so blameworthy as to warrant the same criminal liability as that which the law imposes upon a person who intentionally causes a crime. Depraved indifference focuses on the risk created by the defendant’s conduct, not the injuries actually resulting.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

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Wait, I've got it. I'm going to start a company that markets "holistic organic" vaccines. They'll be biologically identical to the vaccines of course. I'll probably have to add *something* harmless to the mix that I can cite (is it possible to add liquidated granola and bee pollen to a shot?) and to avoid marketing fraud liability. Marin County parents can post on their parenting blogs about how they're vaccinating "the natural way", public safety is improved, and I make serious bank (the margins on holistic vaccines would have to be double what the margins are on current vaccines). Win-win-win!
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

Post by El Guapo »

Isgrimnur wrote:Depraved indifference?
To constitute depraved indifference, the defendant's conduct must be 'so wanton, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, and so blameworthy as to warrant the same criminal liability as that which the law imposes upon a person who intentionally causes a crime. Depraved indifference focuses on the risk created by the defendant’s conduct, not the injuries actually resulting.
I think depraved indifference is limited to murder, not to harm short of killing. Also the indifference involved is supposed to be more along the lines of "firing a gun into a crowd without looking", not just doing something really stupid.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

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Hell, just start citing parents who refuse to vaccinate perfectly eligible kids with medical neglect. If the kids get sick due to something preventable, bump that up to criminal neglect.

To be honest, I'm not actually in favor, philosophically, of having the government strong-arm the issue, but the truth is that when parents refuse to vaccinate, the real price is paid by the responsible parents whose kids are now susceptible to crippling, disfiguring, or deadly diseases, and even more so by the parents of kids who genuinely cannot be vaccinated who rely on herd immunity to keep their kids safe.

When your parenting decisions threaten someone else's children, something needs to be done.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

Post by hepcat »

Vice has a great article on the subject. It deals with the bipartisan aspects of the matter.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

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El Guapo wrote:Wait, I've got it. I'm going to start a company that markets "holistic organic" vaccines. They'll be biologically identical to the vaccines of course. I'll probably have to add *something* harmless to the mix that I can cite (is it possible to add liquidated granola and bee pollen to a shot?) and to avoid marketing fraud liability. Marin County parents can post on their parenting blogs about how they're vaccinating "the natural way", public safety is improved, and I make serious bank (the margins on holistic vaccines would have to be double what the margins are on current vaccines). Win-win-win!
Homeopathic Vaccines!
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

Post by Moliere »

Kurth wrote:So, she refused vaccines for her kid. Years later, her daughter was diagnosed as autistic anyway. So now she feels she has proven that its not the vaccins that are causing autism, but something else, and she's now had her daughter and subsequent children vaccinated. Way to go scientific method!!!
Anecdotal evidence, even when it matches the science, is still just anecdotal evidence.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

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Moliere wrote:
Kurth wrote:So, she refused vaccines for her kid. Years later, her daughter was diagnosed as autistic anyway. So now she feels she has proven that its not the vaccins that are causing autism, but something else, and she's now had her daughter and subsequent children vaccinated. Way to go scientific method!!!
Anecdotal evidence, even when it matches the science, is still just anecdotal evidence.
Again, ego. Her deciding it herself is 'wisdom.' Her accepting the science is giving into 'the man.'

:roll:
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Moliere wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Wait, I've got it. I'm going to start a company that markets "holistic organic" vaccines. They'll be biologically identical to the vaccines of course. I'll probably have to add *something* harmless to the mix that I can cite (is it possible to add liquidated granola and bee pollen to a shot?) and to avoid marketing fraud liability. Marin County parents can post on their parenting blogs about how they're vaccinating "the natural way", public safety is improved, and I make serious bank (the margins on holistic vaccines would have to be double what the margins are on current vaccines). Win-win-win!
Homeopathic Vaccines!
:grund:


And here's how you make a homeopathic vaccine. You take a nosode (something from an infected person/animal) and dilute it to the point that there is not a single molecule of the original material left in the resulting compound. That's your vaccine.

So, for example, take a drop of spit from an ebola patient, mix it with several thousand gallons of water. Take a single drop of the resulting solution, mix it with several thousand gallons of water. Do that a dozen more times, each time with a single drop from the new solution. Voila, "Ebola vaccine!" Fortunately homeopathy is so ineffective, they don't even manage to infect or poison people when using infectious or poisonous ingredients.

But selling water for $20/oz? Man, I wish I had no ethical or moral compass.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

Post by Smoove_B »

The internet is now telling me 5 babies at a suburban Chicago daycare have the measles. Shit is about to get real.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

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According to Dr. Wolfson's reasoning, they just weren't pure.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

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Smoove_B wrote:The internet is now telling me 5 babies at a suburban Chicago daycare have the measles. Shit is about to get real.
Are the anti-vax parents who went to Disney Land publicly known? If so, I wonder if there's going to be a lawsuit against them eventually. I would think that would be a tough one to win, but it wouldn't be remotely surprising if it got filed.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

Post by Smoove_B »

El Guapo wrote:Are the anti-vax parents who went to Disney Land publicly known? If so, I wonder if there's going to be a lawsuit against them eventually. I would think that would be a tough one to win, but it wouldn't be remotely surprising if it got filed.
All that has been confirmed is that the strain of measles that spread out of the Disney exposure was European in nature. The current theory is that it was either a traveler visiting the park or someone that recently visited Europe and then hit the park late last year that sparked it off.

And that's really the problem with all this. People forget how easy it is to hop on a plane and be just about anywhere in 12 hours. Hell, the Ebola model and theories from the 1970s assumed no one would ever be healthy enough with the disease to survive leaving an affected African country and then a plane trip to the continental U.S. and we all know how that worked out.

Regardless, I've been waiting for a lawsuit for years now. I don't know what type of hurdles would need to be cleared, but epidemiologists are pretty good at figuring things out and with the ability to genetically "fingerprint" strains, they can say for certain how an outbreak started. The problem is that public health isn't about finding the person responsible for punitive reasons so our methodologies for data collection and investigation aren't really conducive to the same type of process control that say a police officer uses investigating a crime. We want to find out how it started to understand how to prevent it from happening again.

But yes, I think it will eventually happen and if it's going to, measles is certainly a likely case. People aren't likely going to die from measles in the U.S. but permanent disabilities or brain damage? Much higher risk than something like chicken pox or influenza.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

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I think to have any kind of a claim you'd have to show a chain of infection, like: European --> intentionally unvaxxed Billy --> Bob --> Sarah --> your kid, which seems borderline impossible. I guess what you could try is say "the infection has been traced to Disneyland, this group of parents were in Disney Land during this time, them being there and intentionally not vaccinating caused the outbreak, that outbreak is the only one that could be responsible for my kid in Chicago getting it (you'd have to rule out other possible causes, I guess), therefore this group of parents that I am suing should be held jointly and severally responsible for the damages."

Seems like a long shot, but a pissed off suburban Chicago family with resources seems like a plausible candidate to give it a shot.
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And the other interesting statistic I'm seeing this morning is that outbreaks end up costing local or county health departments an estimated $5k-10k a day. That's administrative costs, case management, overtime, field investigations, etc... nothing at all related to actual medical care (which is data for the insurance industry to share with everyone). Government cost to provide the MMR vaccination at a clinic? $2 - as in "I want my..."
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

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Moliere wrote:
Kurth wrote:So, she refused vaccines for her kid. Years later, her daughter was diagnosed as autistic anyway. So now she feels she has proven that its not the vaccins that are causing autism, but something else, and she's now had her daughter and subsequent children vaccinated. Way to go scientific method!!!
Anecdotal evidence, even when it matches the science, is still just anecdotal evidence.
Sorry - That was meant to be sarcastic. My point was, this woman was still making stupid decisions, not trusting the evidence out there that is actually based on good, fundamental scientific research. Although it's the right result, making her decision to vaccinate now based on her single anecdote is just as stupid as her decision not to vaccinate based on the fear mongering of her social clicque.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

Post by Smoove_B »

El Guapo wrote:I think to have any kind of a claim you'd have to show a chain of infection, like: European --> intentionally unvaxxed Billy --> Bob --> Sarah --> your kid, which seems borderline impossible. I guess what you could try is say "the infection has been traced to Disneyland, this group of parents were in Disney Land during this time, them being there and intentionally not vaccinating caused the outbreak, that outbreak is the only one that could be responsible for my kid in Chicago getting it (you'd have to rule out other possible causes, I guess), therefore this group of parents that I am suing should be held jointly and severally responsible for the damages."
Since you're a law nerd, I'm really only aware of one paper put out by the NIH back in 2008 regarding suing people over vaccination status (Hey look, a NJ reference). For those not interested in reading through the fun that is research paper + legalese:
Tort law, though perhaps not as effective a remedy as outright state government intervention, has the potential to be the best method of preventing religious and philosophical exemption abuse and compensating victims of vaccine-preventable disease outbreaks that has a realistic chance of being implemented. Class action lawsuits, and perhaps lawsuits against specific individuals, would more closely align the interests of those considering religious and philosophical exemptions with those of the rest of the society, thus reducing the number of exemptions of convenience.
All I know is that historically speaking the courts (at all levels,including Supreme) overwhelmingly side with public health. I don't think we as a society have reached the collective tipping point where we're going to drag this back to the courts, but if we continue to see measles and whooping cough outbreaks reoccurring and growing larger and larger, IMHO it's inevitable. Failing that, since we have fine-tuned the mind control roperties associated with water fluoridation, it's just a matter of time...
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

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Smoove_B wrote:The internet is now telling me 5 babies at a suburban Chicago daycare have the measles. Shit is about to get real.
For lazy folks.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

Post by Captain Caveman »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Smoove_B wrote:The internet is now telling me 5 babies at a suburban Chicago daycare have the measles. Shit is about to get real.
For lazy folks.
They are all under 1 and thus of course unable to yet be vaccinated. God, I hope blowback on these selfish anti-vaxxers is rapid and deafening.

Seriously, parents of infants are going to grow increasingly scared to take their babies out in public. And even being vaccinated is not a guarantee you'll be safe, since they are "only" about 95% effective. It's actually less risky to be unvaccinated living among a heavily vaccinated population than be vaccinated among a heavily unvaccinated one.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

Post by Smoove_B »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Smoove_B wrote:The internet is now telling me 5 babies at a suburban Chicago daycare have the measles. Shit is about to get real.
For lazy folks.
Thanks. I didn't have links, just people posting BREAKING NEWS on Twitter.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

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Captain Caveman wrote:
RunningMn9 wrote:
Smoove_B wrote:The internet is now telling me 5 babies at a suburban Chicago daycare have the measles. Shit is about to get real.
For lazy folks.
They are all under 1 and thus of course unable to yet be vaccinated.
You mean kind of like my twins living in the Chicago area?

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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

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Smoove_B wrote:
El Guapo wrote:I think to have any kind of a claim you'd have to show a chain of infection, like: European --> intentionally unvaxxed Billy --> Bob --> Sarah --> your kid, which seems borderline impossible. I guess what you could try is say "the infection has been traced to Disneyland, this group of parents were in Disney Land during this time, them being there and intentionally not vaccinating caused the outbreak, that outbreak is the only one that could be responsible for my kid in Chicago getting it (you'd have to rule out other possible causes, I guess), therefore this group of parents that I am suing should be held jointly and severally responsible for the damages."
Since you're a law nerd, I'm really only aware of one paper put out by the NIH back in 2008 regarding suing people over vaccination status (Hey look, a NJ reference). For those not interested in reading through the fun that is research paper + legalese:
Tort law, though perhaps not as effective a remedy as outright state government intervention, has the potential to be the best method of preventing religious and philosophical exemption abuse and compensating victims of vaccine-preventable disease outbreaks that has a realistic chance of being implemented. Class action lawsuits, and perhaps lawsuits against specific individuals, would more closely align the interests of those considering religious and philosophical exemptions with those of the rest of the society, thus reducing the number of exemptions of convenience.
All I know is that historically speaking the courts (at all levels,including Supreme) overwhelmingly side with public health. I don't think we as a society have reached the collective tipping point where we're going to drag this back to the courts, but if we continue to see measles and whooping cough outbreaks reoccurring and growing larger and larger, IMHO it's inevitable. Failing that, since we have fine-tuned the mind control roperties associated with water fluoridation, it's just a matter of time...
Just to be clear while I'm a lawyer I don't really know anything about this particular area of law.

That said, I did sleep in a Holiday Inn last night.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

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El Guapo wrote:That said, I did sleep in a Holiday Inn last night.
Ah, there's the problem. You have to stay at a Holiday Inn Express to sound smart.
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Isgrimnur wrote:Depraved indifference?
To constitute depraved indifference, the defendant's conduct must be 'so wanton, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, and so blameworthy as to warrant the same criminal liability as that which the law imposes upon a person who intentionally causes a crime. Depraved indifference focuses on the risk created by the defendant’s conduct, not the injuries actually resulting.
There's a crime specifically suited to me? That seems troublesome.
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Post by Smoove_B »

El Guapo wrote:Just to be clear while I'm a lawyer I don't really know anything about this particular area of law.
I'm not even a lawyer but I do give a presentation on public health law. So I guess we're even. :wink:
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Smoove_B wrote:
El Guapo wrote:Just to be clear while I'm a lawyer I don't really know anything about this particular area of law.
I'm not even a lawyer but I do give a presentation on public health law. So I guess we're even. :wink:
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...from a Motel Six outside Peoria.
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El Guapo wrote:Together, we fight crime.
Only after I see the results of your Mantoux test, bub.
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J.D. wrote:This is the most poorly-timed example of irresponsible journalism I have seen in a while. Particularly with the anti-vax movement in the news recently. C'mon Toronto Star, you're better than this. An article full of anecdotal reports with no science to back up any of the side effects presented. Awful.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2015 ... finds.html
They listened - and just published acknowledgment that they failed their readers:
Cruickshank says the headline -- "A wonder drug's dark side" -- was wrong. That the front page play for the story was a mistake. And he notes that the piece mentions several times that the paper has no evidence that the anecdotes it presented were caused by the HPV vaccine Gardasil.

He says he understands why readers would wrongly take away from the piece that the drug is dangerous.
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Post by Moliere »

Check out the reviews on Amazon for "Melanie's Marvelous Measles".
As a carpenter who specializes in itty bitty coffins I can't say enough good things about this book, my customer base has been growing at an epidemic rate!
...
My infant daughter went blind after contracting measles from an unvaccinated child, and yet there's no braille version of this wonderful book for me to give her someday to explain to her how awesome the disease that took her sight away is.
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Looks like some students in Canada were tired of an adjunct's nonsense -- Anti-vaccine professor taking a leave of absence:
Former students and former student government leaders told the Star they had complained about Torcolacci’s teachings to the school since 2012.

Harrison acknowledged the university could do more to address student concerns about courses, beyond the processes already in place. He said he will speak with deans at the university to “determine if any deficiencies exist.”

Harrison concluded the update by expressing shock over Torcolacci’s treatment on social media.

“I hope I speak for everyone at Queen’s, whether student, staff or faculty, when I say that I was personally shocked by the willful nature of many comments directed against Ms. Torcolacci personally,” he wrote. “There are kinder ways of registering concern that are much more likely to be effective if the goal is to effect change when it is warranted."
With respect to final quote, maybe people wouldn't be posting her lectures on social media and mocking her if you looked into this back in 2012. While this end result is unfortunate the fact that it was something permitted to continue (seemingly based on indifference) is inexcusable.
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Blackhawk wrote:Right, because if we did, we wouldn't have that pesky red cube in Los Angeles.
[nerd] But Los Angeles is a yellow city, so the only way there would be a red cube there is if there was an Outbreak in Manila! [/nerd]
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Moliere wrote:Check out the reviews on Amazon for "Melanie's Marvelous Measles".
Some folks are organizing some letter writing campaigns to local bookstores to stop carrying this stupid book, other people see it as "censorship".

It's on the Podcast Cognitive Dissidence the other day. The hosts remarked that, paraphrased... Any one who told you it's censorship can go pound sand. You are not organizing a boycott (though it's certainly within your rights to do so too) merely informing that bookstore can do better in its selection criteria. And the bookstore is perfectly within its rights to tell you to go pound sand. That's freedom of speech.
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Post by LawBeefaroni »

On Monday at work we got the mandate to show proof of immunity by Friday or get the MMR shot. I know I had one when I was a kid but now way I can find the records to prove it. And since it would probably take longer than a week to turnaround the IgG test, I just got the shot. So now I'm super vaccinated. Or doubly autistic.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

Post by tjg_marantz »

LawBeefaroni wrote:On Monday at work we got the mandate to show proof of immunity by Friday or get the MMR shot. I know I had one when I was a kid but now way I can find the records to prove it. And since it would probably take longer than a week to turnaround the IgG test, I just got the shot. So now I'm super vaccinated. Or doubly autistic.
I just went through the exact same thing for my new job.

The nurse wouldn't take my parent's email, certifying that I had it done as a child, as a legally valid document. I was shocked...
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Rip
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

Post by Rip »

Had it already as well as chicken pox. Mumps on the other hand.
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Montag
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

Post by Montag »

I have been toying with asking for MMR and DTAP boosters because of all this crap. The effectiveness does wear off.
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Re: Vaccine-autism how long will this crap be taken seriousl

Post by Smoove_B »

Maybe next year, maybe no go
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