Joe Abercrombie's The First Law discussion (spoilers)

[Zaxxon]

[TiLT]

I just finished this series last week myself (not the standalone books, though I'm working on them). I enjoyed the overall story and had no issues with the way it ended. I did have a few problems with how the story is told however:

Spoiler:

Every goddamn single time (okay, with one exception admittedly, but it still turns out to be decidedly non-lethal after all) a POV character is in mortal peril, someone else will attack and kill the threatening character at the very last moment. It happens so often throughout all three books that it nearly becomes a parody of itself. Hell, even one of the characters mentions the phenomena at one point! Compare this to George R R Martin's writing, where just about every single of those scenes would have ended in the POV character's death since it's the only thing that makes logical sense.

I felt Bayaz' role in the story was pretty obvious. As soon as the royal heir was murdered in his room, I managed to figure out the connections and realized what role he was actually playing in the story. At that point Glokta's story lost some of its impact since I knew most of the motivations of the people holding his leash, something which is clearly meant to be a mystery.

Sentences involving "that was what he meant to say, but what he really said was" have about the same style to them as "but then he woke up and realized that it had all been a dream". The books don't have the latter, but there's plenty of the former, and in an annoying way.

As for the Eaters, the transition from them being nearly impossible to kill without burning into them being instantly killed by having their heads chopped off felt like an artificial way to tie together some parts of the story that seemed to be slipping out of Abercrombie's hands. Nobody ever thought of trying that until the very last battle? Really?

Those are my nitpicks. I learned to live with them, but they kept this from being truly great writing.

[Zaxxon]

I finished Last Argument of Kings tonight. Whew. Really enjoyed the series. While I can see where some of the complaints presented in this thread come from, I loved it. I find myself concurring most with triggercut's summary:

Fantasy tropes are a fine thing. I can dig them.

But I wanted something different from this series. Something the first book seemed to promise.

By the end of the third book, "Last Argument Of Kings", it delivered.

What a brilliant series, what magnificent execution. What? Some of you were expecting a happy, tidy ending? The heck were you reading for the first thousand pages? If the end of the 2nd book (What happens if you go on a heroic quest and things don't go as planned?) didn't clue everyone in on Abercrombie's tone, I don't know what would.

It's true--most of the POV characters are right bastards, and with the partial exception of Glokta, they end the trilogy much the same. But who says redemption is necessary for a character to be worthwhile? Logen, Glokta and Ferro all attempt to 'dig deeper' and turn things around to varying degrees. They meet with varying degrees of success.

I also didn't find Bayaz as evil as most of you seem to. Sure, he's a dude you don't want to mess with. He's at the top of the food chain and is firmly decided upon staying there. He's made bad decisions. But my read is that he generally is trying to do what he thinks is right. His focus on the 'big picture' and total disregard for the individual makes him come off as a bit of a bastard, but I never got the feeling that he created the Union so that he'd be able to nuke the Agriont, for example. He viewed Khalul as an enemy aiming to do 'evil' things, and as one that he'd need more than a few pawns to be able to oppose. He arranged things so that he'd have the tools necessary to ably fight Khalul again when the time came. Now it certainly seems possible that Bayaz is wrong as to whether Khalul's philosophy is evil and Bayaz's is rainbows and butterflies. But he thinks he's doing the right thing.

As for Logen, I think he remains an open book. He certainly doesn't seem to be in control of his actions when the Bloody-Nine is around, and when he's Logen he generally works to be a better than his reputation. I can't call him evil. He was fun to read, though.

Getting ready to sink into Best Served Cold. Unless this one's an utter let-down, Abercrombie's got me as a reader for the forseeable future.

[TiLT]

Getting ready to sink into Best Served Cold. Unless this one's an utter let-down, Abercrombie's got me as a reader for the forseeable future.

I'm about 3/4 through that book right now, and so far it has avoided the problems I mentioned in my post above, so it's a better, more unpredictable read.

[Zaxxon]

Meant to do this last night but the baby killed those plans... Here are a few of the passages I highlighted in the trilogy. Good stuff.

Spoiler:

‘This was a weak man, here. The Weakest, that’s a fact. That was his name, and ain’t that a joke? To call a man the Weakest. The worst fighter they could find, to surrender to Ninefingers. Weak fighter, no doubt, but strong heart, say I.’ ‘Aye,’ said Grim. ‘Strong heart,’ said Tul Duru. ‘The strongest,’ mumbled the Dogman. He had a bit of a lump in the throat, being honest. Threetrees nodded to himself. ‘It takes some bones to meet your death as well as he did. To walk to it, with no complaint. To ask for it. And not for his own sake, but for others, that he didn’t even know.’ Threetrees clenched his teeth and took his moment, looking down at the earth. They all did. ‘That’s all I’ve got to say. Back to the mud with you, Forley. We’re the poorer, and the ground’s the richer for it.’ Dow knelt down, and set his hand on the fresh-turned soil. ‘Back to the mud,’ he said. The Dogman thought for a minute there might be a tear dripping off his nose, but it had to be only the rain. This was Black Dow, after all. He got up and walked away with his head down and the others followed him, one by one, off toward the horses. ‘Fare you well, Forley,’ said the Dogman. ‘No more fear.’ He reckoned now that he was the coward of the band.

Spoiler:

‘All the great heroes of old, you know – the great kings, the great generals – they all faced adversity from time to time.’ Jezal looked up. He had almost forgotten that Bayaz was there. ‘Suffering is what gives a man strength, my boy, just as the steel most hammered turns out the hardest.’ The old man winced as he squatted down beside Jezal. ‘Anyone can face ease and success with confidence. It is the way we face trouble and misfortune that defines us. Self-pity goes with selfishness, and there is nothing more to be deplored in a leader than that. Selfishness belongs to children, and to halfwits. A great leader puts others before himself. You would be surprised how acting so makes it easier to bear one’s own troubles. In order to act like a king, one need only treat everyone else like one.’

Ironic that Bayaz didn't appreciate Jezal taking that particular bit of advice...

Spoiler:

‘Fighting? It’s got me everything I have.’ And he held his big empty hands up to show her. ‘Nothing but an evil reputation and an awful lot of men with a burning need to kill me. Fighting? Hah! The better you are at it, the worse off it leaves you. I’ve settled some scores, and that can feel grand, but the feeling don’t last long. Vengeance won’t keep you warm nights, and that’s a fact. Overrated. Won’t do on its own. You need something else.’

Spoiler:

Silence was dull, but it was honest.

Spoiler:

Cosca raised his brows. ‘Honour, eh? What the hell is that anyway? Every man thinks it’s something different. You can’t drink it. You can’t fuck it. The more of it you have the less good it does you, and if you’ve got none at all you don’t miss it.’ He shook his head. ‘But some men think it’s the best thing in the world.’

Spoiler:

Not many men can weigh their choices properly while death comes racing up at them.

Spoiler:

Proof is boring. Proof is tiresome. Proof is an irrelevance. People would far rather be handed an easy lie than search for a difficult truth, especially if it suits their own purposes.

Spoiler:

Black Dow ambled up, something not too far from a smile across his face. The one man in the whole camp who might’ve been said to be in a better mood than usual, and you know you’re in some sorry shit when Black Dow starts smiling.

Spoiler:

‘Tul Duru. Every man in the North knew his name, and every man said it with respect, even his enemies. He was the sort o’ man . . . that gave you hope, I reckon. That gave you hope. You want strength, do you? You want courage? You want things done right and proper, the old way?’ He nodded down at the new-turned earth. ‘There you go. Tul Duru Thunderhead. Look no fucking further. I’m less, now that he’s gone, and so are all o’ you.’ And Dow turned and stalked off away from the grave and into the dusk, his head down.

I really think the manner of Tul's passing had something to do with Dow's... choices at the end of the trilogy.

Spoiler:

You can have enemies you never really meet, Logen had plenty. You can kill men you don’t know, he’d done it often. But you can’t truly hate a man without loving him first, and there’s always a trace of that love left over.

Spoiler:

The ice spread out from his stomach, out to the very tips of his fingers and turned every part of him numb. It was well that it did. It was high time. ‘Yes,’ he said. Up, up onto one knee, his bloody lips curling back from his teeth, his bloody right hand snaking through the grass, seeking out the hilt of the Maker’s sword, closing tight around it. ‘Yes!’ he hissed, and Logen laughed, and the Bloody-Nine laughed, together.

Spoiler:

There aren’t many wounds that ever heal all the way, and there are some that hurt more with every day that passes.

[Pyperkub]

I'm avoiding spoilers for the non-First Law books, as I've just started the Heroes (can I read the above)?

A couple of things about the Heroes (I'm a couple of chapters into 'Day One'):

1. This is really cool reading this "War in the North" book about Northern Moutainmen fighting against an incursion from the Empire/Union at the same time I'm playing Skyrim. I can really feel the cold in skyrim, and while the mud isn't there, I'm playing Fafhrd-esque Nord with 2-handed and Light-armor/archery focus - mostly non-magic so far. This is doing a lot for immersion (as well as STEP).

2. Possible spoiler as to source material (though it's only my hypothesis):

Spoiler:

This is starting to feel a LOT like an alternate reality Battle of Gettysburg, as it reminds me a ton of Shaara's Killer Angels, but with some minor twists:

1. If the "Union" (from the South in the book), is actually representing the Confederacy, it's almost like an alternate history where the Confederates got to the ground first @ Gettysburgh. Even though they have a "General Meed".

2. Dogman's scouts (Hardbread or something) were like the Spy in Killer Angels at the beginning, or maybe that's Curnden Craw.

There are at least some parallels that will be interesting to keep any eye out for as I progress.

Back to Skyrim... I may have to re-read the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser books once I get to the Theives' Guild questline...

[Zaxxon]

My spoilers concern the trilogy only.

[Pyperkub]

My spoilers concern the trilogy only.

He does turn a phrase quite well, and to some very archetypal sentiments. The Heroes has a bunch more...

[TiLT]

I just finished Best Served Cold, and in some ways I find it superior to the original trilogy. It certainly doesn't fall into the same writing traps that I complained about earlier (ie. few last-second rescues of POV-characters, and no "that was what he wanted to say, but what he really said was" moments), and it's unpredictable until the end. If you like heroes being heroes however, this isn't the book for you. Every single lead character in this story is a murderer. No exceptions. In fact, you could call each of them mass murderers. It's hard to truly sympathize with any of them, though they are written so well that it hardly matters.

Spoiler about the coolest character in the book:

Spoiler:

I like how Cosca was changed from a slightly annoying guy in the original books into a Jack Sparrow-like character here.

[moghedian]

I just realized today that Joe Abercrombies new book Red Country is out. Some "western" themes this time around. Same world as previous books...

I knew he was writing it but had slipped my mind until I came across it today browsing. Haven't read it yet, just a heads up!

[Skinypupy]

Thanks for the heads-up, I wasn't aware this was coming. Looks like I'll have something to read on my road trip next week.

[coopasonic]

I bought the sale. I have none of the other books. Is it necessary or better to read the First Law trilogy before this book, or is it ok to just jump in?

I think The Heroes is a distilled version of the trilogy. There isn't much in the way of mystery or intrigue, the story is pretty much black and white, focusing around a single event over the course of three days. As mentioned there are a number of characters from the previous four books that make an appearance in this story and as a fan of the series, I really enjoyed seeing minor characters developed in this story or major characters making an appearance.

And yes, the battle scene mentioned by Skinypupy was tremendous writing - he has an awesome ability to craft amazing descriptions for all of the fighting.

Is it necessary to read the First Law Trilogy first? No, I don't think so - but you will absolutely get more out of it if you do. As far as I know these last two books were written as stand-alone titles taking place in the same world. That being said, I would be curious to see what you think of the Trilogy when you read it next.

This fall I read the trilogy and finally The Heroes and now that it's too late for anyone else, I would definitely say there is good reason to read the Trilogy first. The mystery around one particular character featured prominently in the trilogy would be spoiled by reading The Heroes first.

[Kraegor]

I also didn't find Bayaz as evil as most of you seem to. Sure, he's a dude you don't want to mess with. He's at the top of the food chain and is firmly decided upon staying there. He's made bad decisions. But my read is that he generally is trying to do what he thinks is right. His focus on the 'big picture' and total disregard for the individual makes him come off as a bit of a bastard, but I never got the feeling that he created the Union so that he'd be able to nuke the Agriont, for example. He viewed Khalul as an enemy aiming to do 'evil' things, and as one that he'd need more than a few pawns to be able to oppose. He arranged things so that he'd have the tools necessary to ably fight Khalul again when the time came. Now it certainly seems possible that Bayaz is wrong as to whether Khalul's philosophy is evil and Bayaz's is rainbows and butterflies. But he thinks he's doing the right thing.

A bit late for this observation but I think you may be overlooking a few things.

Spoiler:

Doing the right thing is not a motivating factor in any of Bayaz's actions. Bayaz claims to be "opposing" Khalul but it's all smoke and mirrors. All he was doing was controlling the narrative of who he was and what he stood for. It's a farce. Bayaz believes in only one thing and that is do it his way or die. He doesn't care about virtue, he exploits it. It's clear by the end that of all the bastards that will ever live, no one tops Bayaz. And he'll make sure that remains true at any cost.

From a whence it all began standpoint, Khalul is seeking justice. Technically, Khalul is the good guy who decided that he would do anything to see that justice/vengeance is served. Khalul kind of became an object lesson in the you become what you seek to destroy school of thought.

Bayaz does not disagree with or disapprove of Khalul's methods -- (Bayaz had eaters of his own. He broke the laws of his master. Murdered a woman he claimed to love. He kills anyone who obstructs him).

Between Bayaz/Khalul: There is no good guy. They use all of humanity as pawns in their little family dispute.

Best Served Cold was interesting in that you got to spend that book following the heroes on Khalul's side.

(I have not read Red Country so cannot factor that into my observations)

[Remus West]

I agree with Kraegor's spoilered opinion.

[Jaymann]

I just realized today that Joe Abercrombies new book Red Country is out. Some "western" themes this time around. Same world as previous books...

I knew he was writing it but had slipped my mind until I came across it today browsing. Haven't read it yet, just a heads up!

Grabbed it too. As far as I can tell I've read every other book he's written, so it's gotta be good.

[Jiffy]

Finally finished Red Country. Enjoyed it, just like all the rest of Abercrombie's books.

Slightly spoilerish stuff on all his books below, I'll tag it to be safe...

Spoiler:

While I still might choose the trilogy as my favourite set of books, I found The Heroes and Best Served Cold to both be excellent and compelling reads - interesting characters (especially in BSC's case), and a simple setting but excellent fleshing out of the details in TH made both them great stand alones...I felt Red Country didn't quite live up to those two books, but was still very good overall.

Probably my favourite parts in RC dealt with the return of Logen, still battling with his demons. Abercrombie really seems to like hitting the same thread with his stories, especially that you can't change the nature of a man, that you accept who you are for better or worse, and that there are no heroes. While we see temporary change or what feels like character growth throughout the story, nearly everyone seems to revert back in the end (look at what happens with Cosca here, Shivers in BSC, etc). Granted, Temple grew as a character, but I didn't find him an overly interesting one to be central to. Shy wasn't overly interesting either I thought, which detracted from my overall impression when two of the central characters are a bit blah, especially compared to the other books. Still, I'll merrily go out and purchase Abercrombie's next book, whenever it gets released.

Oh, one other negative - the Kindle version of the book was terrible for punctuation and spacing mistakes.

[Smoove_B]

Just finished a re-read of the Trilogy (it's still awesome) and was happy to see that his new book is coming out in July. The only information I could find was from IO9 and they apparently scored an excerpt from Half a King...

Half a King is a classic "coming of age" story about Yarvi, the youngest son of a warrior king. Because Yarvi is born with one disabled hand, he's regarded as "half a man," and he can't ever live up to his father's expectations of what a real man ought to be. He's expected to go into the ministry instead of becoming a soldier or an heir to the throne — but after his father and brother are killed, he's thrust onto the throne (the Black Chair) where he has to find a way to rule. But of course his journey doesn't turn out to be that easy.

Finally getting around to reading Red Country for the first time. I was going to go through Best Served Cold and The Heroes again, but I couldn't wait. I'm only a few chapters in, but I'm glad I made the choice based on who it's clearly going to include.

[Kelric]

Red Country was fun. I loaned the First Law trilogy to my father a few weeks back since he just finished ASOIAF. Looking forward to a new one from Abercrombie.

[McNutt]

Definitely read in the following order:

1. First Law Trilogy
2. Heroes or Best Served Cold - doesn't matter
3. Red Country

Reading out of that order will have you reading about certain characters that you're expected to know about.

[Scuzz]

Several posts on Abercrombie's web sight are referring to the new book (it is a new series with a different publisher) as a YA book. Why does that bother me?

[McNutt]

I don't think I'd like that. Abercrombie is at his best when he is going all-out Expendables with his violence.

[Isgrimnur]

Tor

A decade after he wrapped up the First Law trilogy with Last Argument of Kings, Joe Abercrombie is writing a new trilogy, described as “Les Miserables meets Game of Thrones,” set in the First Law world. A Little Hatred, the first installment in the as-yet-untitled trilogy, will be published by Orbit Books and Gollancz in September 2019.
...
“Often in publishing there’s a pressure to push out the next book as soon as possible,” Abercrombie said in the latter announcement. “With a series that can mean a lot of compromises. Gollancz have given me the time and support to draft a whole trilogy in one go, to write the end along with the start, which means the whole thing is as tight and cohesive as I can make it. It means a wait for the first book, but then regular, well-planned releases of the other two on the timetable that best suits them. The aim with this trilogy was to take the recipe for fantasy I’ve been developing over the twelve years since The Blade Itself was published—a tight focus on vivid characters caught up in crunching action, twisty plotting, and a dark and gritty world with plenty of gallows humour along the way—and push it in a more original, more industrial direction.”

[Jolor]

Loved everything he's written so far. Doubt this will disappoint,