Joe Abercrombie's The First Law discussion (spoilers)

malichai11 · Post by **malichai11** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:03 am

I finished this series a couple days ago and have started a post about the series at least three times. I know it's highly regarded round here by some, but I don't think I've ever been as disappointed in a series.

The first book was fine, but it really seemed to just be running in place. The characters didn't evolve much, the plot didn't move much, I was just waiting for everything to get started, which didn't seem to happen until the final 5% of the book. Technically well written, and the portions dealing with Logen and Glokta were atmospheric and interesting.

The second book, upon first blush, was fantastic. Characters evolved and grew, the plot seemed to move forward. Until the end, of course, where we discover that half the book's plot was meaningless, but it didn't really matter, because the character driven stuff was so excellent.

The third book destroyed all the good will the second book had built up. All of the main characters regressed or worse. All development reversed. Though Glotka was sort've interesting, he was still a remarkably disgusting person. As Ardee said it best, he's a self-pitying villain. I found what the author did to Logen to be the most disheartening. I really liked his character after the second book. By the end of the third, I realized he truly was an evil psychopath.

In the end, the series seemed to be about repugnant people accomplishing little but doing awful things to other people, and leaving the world little better than how they found it. It isn't poorly written, it just felt like a crappy way to spend my time. I can't imagine re-reading the series, or any sequels by Abercrombie, unless reading a review that there's some sort've complete redemption arc within for the characters, but I'm not going to hold out hope for that. A good author, but in the end I found him simply too cynical, too mean, and too heartless.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:54 am

I thought the series didn't meet up to advanced billing myself.

I get that we're turning all the tropes on their heads (or blowing them up). I wasn't expecting happiness or everyone finding the good in themselves and uniting to defeat evil blah blah blah, mind you. I liked that the development through the first to books was clearly showing flawed people who weren't going to ditch those flaws easily (or in Logen's case, master the thing that makes him such a danger to the people around him). The character growth was already very much non-traditional. It was really working. Like you, I liked the first two books but was disappointed in 3. It wasn't just that everyone "regressed" or had the work of the previous two books undone. It was that the entire book seemed to exist solely to make people regress/disappoint/shock and say "hah, everybody sucks!". There were already several weak characters, e.g. Ferro, who just got unbearable. I get it you don't trust people? Why the fuck do I care (and don't get me started about her scene with Bayaz's big spell. Ahhh, the demon voices said trust, which means danger! We're saved!)?

For book 3, I did like the development of Bayaz. Glotka is Glotka. But I found the book lacking overall.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:11 am

A friend of mine regards this series as some of the best books he's ever read. My initial impression halfway through the first book is that he hasn't read a great deal.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:51 am

YellowKing wrote:A friend of mine regards this series as some of the best books he's ever read. My initial impression halfway through the first book is that he hasn't read a great deal.

I found them to be quick reads - well the first two moreso than book 3 - and in an enjoyable way. Not in a "popcorn book" way. The prose works, the setting is interesting, and there's an increasing amount of intrigue.

I like other things better, granted. April doesn't get here soon enough, on that note. . .

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:51 am

There was a quote on the opening page of one of the chapters in one of the books (helpful init) that read "What if the devil did not know he was the devil."

I thought that summed up the series nicely. The first of the Magi was the devil in the story and just never realized it. I liked the books but I wouldn't call them the best ever. I would recommend them as I do think they are very good character writing (not development as you are right that they do not really grow save for the swordsman whose name escapes me right now) and story telling they just do not satisfy the inner desire for a triumph of good over evil as everyone involved is evil. Although maybe if we got to see the story from the other side we would see the good? I doubt it though as I have a hard time picturing the eaters as good.

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:15 am

I thought the writing was excellent and the pacing well done. It's a simple story. Mainly character driven. Easy to read.

they called it a trilogy but it's pretty damn obvious the story is unfinished. Due to the fact that the major players didn't actually confront each other tends to make the ending feel flat. Yippy so the pawns and a couple knights clashed... that's it?

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:17 am

Peacedog wrote: I like other things better, granted. April doesn't get here soon enough, on that note. . .

....if you're referring to the next book in the Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss, I've got bad news for you:

http://www.patrickrothfuss.com/blog/200 ... k-two.html" target="_blank

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:30 am

triggercut wrote:
Peacedog wrote: I like other things better, granted. April doesn't get here soon enough, on that note. . .
....if you're referring to the next book in the Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss, I've got bad news for you:

http://www.patrickrothfuss.com/blog/200 ... k-two.html" target="_blank

Does anyone have the Vader Noooo! pic handy?

Those cartoons are awesome.

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:42 am

I enjoyed it a lot. Not great, but fun to read and I burned through the books incredibly fast.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:58 am

/runs in

I'm just about to finish the first book, so I'll bookmark this thread and look again when I finish the trilogy...probably in August of this year. I like what I've read so far, enough to buy the next book, so I guess we'll see.

/runs out

Mr. Sparkle · Post by **Mr. Sparkle** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:02 pm

I dunno, I really liked Logen and Glotka... a character doesn't have to be wholly good and unsullied(or sane) for me to enjoy reading about them.

The problem I had with it was how "topical" it seemed, what with torture and evil A-rabs coming to destroy the white people. I couldn't help thinking of it terms of modern politics, and I didn't really want to... I like to keep my sci-fi and fantasy separate from my politics, and I had trouble doing that with this series.

Kelric · Post by **Kelric** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:35 pm

Mr. Sparkle wrote:The problem I had with it was how "topical" it seemed, what with torture and evil A-rabs coming to destroy the white people. I couldn't help thinking of it terms of modern politics, and I didn't really want to... I like to keep my sci-fi and fantasy separate from my politics, and I had trouble doing that with this series.

Evil Arabs are in tons of fantasy series. Always have been. I didn't once think of it in terms of modern politics, though I did flash back to a lot of other series. Just like, for example, I never even think of Battlestar Galactica in terms of modern politics. I'm watching a show or reading a book for the story it is telling, not how that story parallels or follows real life.

Eightball · Post by **Eightball** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:04 pm

Kelric wrote:
Mr. Sparkle wrote:The problem I had with it was how "topical" it seemed, what with torture and evil A-rabs coming to destroy the white people. I couldn't help thinking of it terms of modern politics, and I didn't really want to... I like to keep my sci-fi and fantasy separate from my politics, and I had trouble doing that with this series.
Evil Arabs are in tons of fantasy series. Always have been.

For example, Lord of the Rings with the Haradrim...

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:35 pm

Mr. Sparkle wrote: The problem I had with it was how "topical" it seemed, what with torture and evil A-rabs coming to destroy the white people. I couldn't help thinking of it terms of modern politics, and I didn't really want to... I like to keep my sci-fi and fantasy separate from my politics, and I had trouble doing that with this series.

if you were paying attention you would have noted that the ones truly in control are the banks.

as someone else noted, the divide is a pretty common element. I spose if you define modern as the last 20 years, then the book is no more topical than some series I've read from the 80s.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:45 pm

Kraegor wrote:
if you were paying attention you would have noted that the ones truly in control are the banks.

. . . only as another Proxy for Bayaz. Bayaz was in control (Well, as in control as one could be), and it was he that ensured that one bank got as powerful as it did, as another means of manipulating things.

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:49 pm

Peacedog wrote:
Kraegor wrote:
if you were paying attention you would have noted that the ones truly in control are the banks.
. . . only as another Proxy for Bayaz. Bayaz was in control (Well, as in control as one could be), and it was he that ensured that one bank got as powerful as it did, as another means of manipulating things.

I believe the term is CEO. or President of Operations or some such...

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:40 pm

Kraegor wrote:
I believe the term is CEO. or President of Operations or some such...

Absolutely not. He clearly doesn't like being out in the open, except when he must be (e.g. dealing with the 100 names and all that crap). In terms of the metaphor, Bayaz is the pentaverate!

Kraegor · Post by **Kraegor** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:46 pm

Colonel Sanders'! OOH how I hate that bastard, with his wee, beady eyes, 'Oh you're gonna eat my chicken'

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:47 pm

A full month ahead of schedule, I finished. In my other lifetime, I probably would have finished all three in six weeks. Now? 7 months. Good lord.

I rather enjoyed it, particularly in the sense that it was a complete story with a beginning, middle and end. Sure, there's room to write more, but it wouldn't be necessary -- the three books stand on their own. The writing and pacing were fine and not distracting.

I am rather conflicted regarding Logan. He seemed as though he wanted to change and in the end he very well might have. The fact that it ended with Logan and not the Bloody Nine would suggest to me that he did change, but his ways came back to haunt him, i.e. the change was too late. The full nature of magic was never explained, nor Logan's relation to the Bloody Nine so it's hard to truly hate him without understanding fully how he makes the change.

I really didn't see Bayaz as an evil character until the end of the series, which I thought was a pretty cool element. Overall I thought it was a fresh take on the whole fantasy genre, though maybe I'm not nearly as well read as some of you basement dwellers.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:05 pm

A friend of mine regards this series as some of the best books he's ever read. My initial impression halfway through the first book is that he hasn't read a great deal.

I kind of regret making this statement, as my initial impressions weren't favorable but the books really grew on me by the end.

I don't think they were the best fantasy I've ever read, but they were fun books with a unique style and I enjoyed them a great deal. I loved that he broke away from the traditional good/bad stereotypes of most fantasy fiction; like A Game of Thrones, it made the characters seem so much more "real."

Gryndyl · Post by **Gryndyl** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:00 pm

I loved the series. Yes, it is flawed, but they were very character driven stories, which I like, and I found all of the characters to be very interesting whether or not they were likeable people.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:29 am

So tonight I finally--after numerous attempts to get my attention focused enough to get past the first book (which I always greatly enjoyed) finished reading The First Law series.

I will admit that hearing quite a few fantasy nerds bitching about the way the series ended had put me off going further. Now I'm glad I did.

Fantasy tropes are a fine thing. I can dig them.

But I wanted something different from this series. Something the first book seemed to promise.

By the end of the third book, "Last Argument Of Kings", it delivered.

What a brilliant series, what magnificent execution. What? Some of you were expecting a happy, tidy ending? The heck were you reading for the first thousand pages? If the end of the 2nd book (What happens if you go on a heroic quest and things don't go as planned?) didn't clue everyone in on Abercrombie's tone, I don't know what would.

Full disclosure: my favorite novel in 20th Century literature is T. Coraghessan Boyle's "Worlds End". That book also ends in an untidy, and uh, unexpected way. The First Law is a fantasy series that ol Boyle would have written if he dabbled in the genre.

Scuzz · Post by **Scuzz** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:25 am

I finished the third book last night. I loved the series. It's not the best ever (Asimov's Foundation Trilogy takes that award) but it is damn good and very different from other books of this genre that I have read.

It is obvious early on that you are not reading The Lord of the Rings.....as the characters are far from perfect and some are not even likable. But Abercrombie draws you in...and perhaps the most heinous character in the book, Glotka, becomes perhaps the most interesting.

By early in the third book it is obvious that things will not run out as you may hope, that Abercrombie's world does not lead to a happy ending and that while people may change they can't escape their lives.

I will admit near the end to wishing the Ferro was going after Bayaz instead of sneaking out of the city.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:53 am

Big character spoiler.

Spoiler:

Scuzz · Post by **Scuzz** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:22 pm

$iljanus wrote:Big character spoiler.

Spoiler:
Nice trashing of the whole "kindly old Wizard" trope. He's the anti-Gandalf and I love how this is gradually revealed to you as the series goes on. Hell, he's the evil mergers and acquisitions section of Lehman Bros, Citibank, and all the other heavy financial hitters rolled into one...with magic. And the "happiest" characters, and I use that term rather loosely, are the ones who are the most emotionally damaged.

True...at the end you wonder which of the armies is being led by the "just" mage.........as with every bit of information you learn about Bayaz he becomes darker and darker.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:21 am

Scuzz wrote:I finished the third book last night. I loved the series. It's not the best ever (Asimov's Foundation Trilogy takes that award) but it is damn good and very different from other books of this genre that I have read.

Definitely don't miss the next two stand-alone books. Best Served Cold was good, though I don't think it hit the same peak that the trilogy did, but The Heroes was top-notch. Not only a great story, but you'll get to see what happens with numerous characters from the series.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:50 am

The Heroes is today's Kindle ebook deal of the day -- a steal at $1.99.

If you've read the others, don't miss a chance to get The Heroes on the cheap.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:33 am

I have both of the standalone books, but have yet to read them. The trilogy was great though.

Skinypupy · Post by **Skinypupy** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:58 am

Smoove_B wrote:If you've read the others, don't miss a chance to get The Heroes on the cheap.

+1. The Heroes was probably my favorite book of the entire series. The battle scene where he shifts perspective is one of the most brilliant things I've ever read.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:41 pm

I was disappointed in "Best Served Cold" but I really enjoyed "The Heroes".

Fitzy · Post by **Fitzy** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:35 pm

I bought the sale. I have none of the other books. Is it necessary or better to read the First Law trilogy before this book, or is it ok to just jump in?

I'm sucker for sales.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:45 pm

Fitzy wrote:I bought the sale. I have none of the other books. Is it necessary or better to read the First Law trilogy before this book, or is it ok to just jump in?

I'm sucker for sales.

There is some back story tie in that would provide some backround to the names they drop but the main story stands on its own I'd think.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:51 pm

Smoove_B wrote:The Heroes is today's Kindle ebook deal of the day -- a steal at $1.99.

If you've read the others, don't miss a chance to get The Heroes on the cheap.

thanks! Picked it up (though I haven't read anything but the trilogy). I have to say that were getting some of the best fantasy in awhile (though there are far too many unfinished series out there).

The First Law and the Lies of Locke Lamora (haven't read the second one) have been some of the best fantasy fiction in awhile.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:57 pm

Fitzy wrote:I bought the sale. I have none of the other books. Is it necessary or better to read the First Law trilogy before this book, or is it ok to just jump in?

I think The Heroes is a distilled version of the trilogy. There isn't much in the way of mystery or intrigue, the story is pretty much black and white, focusing around a single event over the course of three days. As mentioned there are a number of characters from the previous four books that make an appearance in this story and as a fan of the series, I really enjoyed seeing minor characters developed in this story or major characters making an appearance.

And yes, the battle scene mentioned by Skinypupy was tremendous writing - he has an awesome ability to craft amazing descriptions for all of the fighting.

Is it necessary to read the First Law Trilogy first? No, I don't think so - but you will absolutely get more out of it if you do. As far as I know these last two books were written as stand-alone titles taking place in the same world. That being said, I would be curious to see what you think of the Trilogy when you read it next.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:41 am

I haven't read this thread yet since it's spoiler-filled, but I had to post that I'm loving this series so far. After reading The Heroes earlier this month as my introduction to Abercrombie, I started The Blade Itself on Saturday morning. As of Sunday night I'm almost halfway through. Can't put it down.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:47 pm

Zaxxon wrote:I haven't read this thread yet since it's spoiler-filled, but I had to post that I'm loving this series so far. After reading The Heroes earlier this month as my introduction to Abercrombie, I started The Blade Itself on Saturday morning. As of Sunday night I'm almost halfway through. Can't put it down.

Book one: complete. Book two: challenge accepted.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:03 pm

Zaxxon wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:I haven't read this thread yet since it's spoiler-filled, but I had to post that I'm loving this series so far. After reading The Heroes earlier this month as my introduction to Abercrombie, I started The Blade Itself on Saturday morning. As of Sunday night I'm almost halfway through. Can't put it down.
Book one: complete. Book two: challenge accepted.

Non-spoiler response: Enjoy it! I did.

Scuzz · Post by **Scuzz** » Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:53 pm

I now own the two stand alone books but probably won't get around to reading them until I finish all the GRR Martin books.

Zaxxon · Post by **Zaxxon** » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:06 am

Book two: COMPLETE. Say one thing about Joe Abercrombie, say his books are fast-paced.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:23 pm

Zaxxon wrote:Book two: COMPLETE. Say one thing about Joe Abercrombie, say his books are fast-paced.

I see what you did there.