United Breaks Guitars (and now, faces!)

[gameoverman]

I don't see how this escalates to the passenger getting dragged off the plane. When the authorities show up to escort you off the plane, you ARE getting off the plane one way or another. They have to, they can't show up, demand you get off the plane, then shrug and walk away when you say no. Haha, imagine how much credibility they'd have if they backed down= zero. So you can walk off or get dragged off. I'd rather walk off, although that would limit my shot at suing someone.

[Moliere]

I don't see how this escalates to the passenger getting dragged off the plane. When the authorities show up to escort you off the plane, you ARE getting off the plane one way or another. They have to, they can't show up, demand you get off the plane, then shrug and walk away when you say no. Haha, imagine how much credibility they'd have if they backed down= zero. So you can walk off or get dragged off. I'd rather walk off, although that would limit my shot at suing someone.

Why would the cops participate in this dragging off the plane? The passenger paid for a ticket. The airline gave him the ticket and a seat. He sat down on the plane. Was not disruptive. Was causing no issue with the airline staff or other passengers. There was no legal premise for their involvement other than the airline changed their mind and decided to throw random paid passengers off the plane in favor of their employees flying in those seats.

[LordMortis]

Why would the cops participate in this dragging off the plane? The passenger paid for a ticket. The airline gave him the ticket and a seat. He sat down on the plane. Was not disruptive. Was causing no issue with the airline staff or other passengers. There was no legal premise for their involvement other than the airline changed their mind and decided to throw random paid passengers off the plane in favor of their employees flying in those seats.

All true but the reality is still when asked to get off the plane, you get off the plane. There is no arguing. You are at the mercy of the airline, as you should be. That's the rub. Dude was in the wrong but he was in the wrong and had a Falling Down moment because United's policy is crappy. Again, ultimately it's just bad PR for United but it's really bad PR.

[Skinypupy]

I've always actively avoided United, as the few times I've flown with them, the service has been absolutely dreadful (although never to this level).

This simply reaffirms that I am making the correct choice in avoiding them like the plague.

[Isgrimnur]

Pretty much. Short of trying to tell the passenger he's trespassing, at which point you're going to effectively ban him from your airline, there's absolutely no reason that transit police should be involved in what is a civil matter.

[Daehawk]

Wait a second. I just realized they wanted the space for the back up crew to fly. So they dragged ONE guy off. So their backup crew is one guy? Why cant he just sit in a jump seat...then again this makes no sense.

[Moliere]

Wait a second. I just realized they wanted the space for the back up crew to fly. So they dragged ONE guy off. So their backup crew is one guy? Why cant he just sit in a jump seat...then again this makes no sense.

The other three "volunteers" randomly chosen didn't make a scene and left the plane as instructed.

[McNutt]

I wondered why the cops got involved too. If they order you off you need to listen, but when did they become United's goons.

Sent from my LG-H900 using Tapatalk

[Isgrimnur]

9/11.

[Daehawk]

Well at least TSA didn't come and refrisk him. That would have just been inhumane.

[MHS]

I just don't get how they can possibly be allowed to boot someone from a plane like that. They shouldn't even be allowed to book more than what the f'n flight can hold. I try to avoid flying just because I can't deal with all the BS around it. Imagine if you had a family vacation planned and they booted you from the plane?

I'm not defending United (although I did during LeggingsGate) but it says in the fine print that they can boot you. They'll always ask for volunteers first (I actually made $500 the same day, same airport as this incident, being bumped) but can then involuntarily boot. It's supposed to be done based on ticket class, not sure if that was the case here. Mistakes made all around, but they were within their legal rights and once he starts yelling, they can (and obviously will) remove people by whatever means necessary. Bad juju all around, though.

[malchior]

Definitely can boot but they also know most people don't know their rights. For example, the doctor could be eligible for up to $1350 for an involuntary bump and it can be demanded as a check (not a voucher). You can also refuse the payout and sue for more than that if you think you can prove damages. I can imagine a doctor in a hospital can dredge up more than $1350 in missed billings for a days work depending on the practice. Anyway it is a contract - they can boot but they will in breach of the contract and there are regulated and expanded civil remedies.

However United fucked this up and down. They "overbooked" and by overbook they failed to properly manage their crew. They decided to stop providing adequate incentives for their failure because it was going to be too expensive for them. That is because they didn't account for the risk properly of their continuing failure. To wit they still let people board the plane knowing they were going to bump people off the plane. They created most of the situation through their mismanagement of the situation. Many of the passengers (and the public's reaction) to this indicates that most people didn't think this was handled reasonably. So in lieu of proper management of the situation they have cost themselves quite a bit. Good. Hopefully this will push them to figure out their shit and avoid this type of garbage in the future.

[Zaxxon]

You guys are all missing the point. United's problem was overbooking.

Methinks that problem is solved.

[MHS]

You guys are all missing the point. United's problem was overbooking.

Methinks that problem is solved.

Ha.

I'll still fly them. At least they didn't keep me from getting to the last weekend at the Joe to see the Red Wings, like Delta did. Every airline sucks, it's just how much sucktitude a person can live with, and since I have to get places, and United is hubbed here...I'll still fly them.

[Moliere]

You guys are all missing the point. United's problem was overbooking.

That won't change.

Here’s The Real Reason Airlines Like United Constantly Overbook Your Flights
math
math
math

As you can see, overbooking makes complete economic sense. Using the assumptions we outlined in this problem, the optimal number of tickets to sell is 105 because it generates the maximum expected revenue per flight. Based on the data estimating who will show up, the airline can expect to earn $20,750 per flight if it sells 105 tickets, even though the flight’s capacity is only 100 seats.

The airline could sell up to 107 seats based on its data and still earn more money ($20,150) than if it only sold as many seats as were available, even taking costly rebooking fees into account. Because some amount of no-shows is more likely than every ticket buyer showing up for the flight, airlines are incentivized to overbook to maximize the amount of revenue they earn per flight.

Because of the math outlined above, and because flight no-shows are statistically more likely than every ticket buyer showing up for the flight, airlines will continue to overbook passengers as a matter of course. Until it becomes economically irrational — for example, if rebooking costs go through the roof or customer ill will from overbooking sends passengers elsewhere — or illegal for them to do so, airlines will continue overbooking passengers.

[Zaxxon]

I think your joke detector is malfunctioning.

[gameoverman]

I think number of airline passengers crossed over to 'enough' a long time ago. There's no shortage of them. So I don't think the bad PR matters to anyone. Some people will be outraged for a bit, then everything goes back to business as usual.

I encourage all people to refuse to cooperate on passenger jets, I never get tired of watching these videos.

[Papa Smurph]

As their carrier rules (that no one reads) allows them to do what they did, this is pretty much just bad PR and nothing else.

Uhm, just because they say they can do it doesn't mean they can legally do it. I can post a note to the inside of my door in 4 point font that says that anyone standing outside my door is "a potential target for a fist-in-face moment." However, if I then punch someone standing outside my door, it's still assault, no matter how much I say I "warned" them.

I don't see how the airlines have a legal leg to stand on here. They sold a ticket with an implied "right to use" (I'm not a lawyer, so I'm sure there is a better term) and then refused to honor that sale. Worse, they then had thugs (the police, no less) commit assault and battery to enforce their illegal activity. That's pretty bad. And the police need to stop it, already. We've had enough issues with police violence in this country, beating up people at a corporations behest is not going to help ease any tensions. If United comes to them again, the airport police need to be all "is the passenger threatening or harming others? Then, nope, not gonna do it!"

[Victoria Raverna]

United isn't going to lose anything. They called the cops and any damage was done by them (if anyone). As their carrier rules (that no one reads) allows them to do what they did, this is pretty much just bad PR and nothing else.

Carrier rules allow them to boot people from the plane using force because of overbooking?

[MHS]

United isn't going to lose anything. They called the cops and any damage was done by them (if anyone). As their carrier rules (that no one reads) allows them to do what they did, this is pretty much just bad PR and nothing else.

Carrier rules allow them to boot people from the plane using force because of overbooking?

No, carrier rules allow them to boot people. The guy yelling and refusing to exit allows them to use force. The post 9-11 world can be a shitty place.

[Carpet_pissr]

I am almost militantly anti-litigious, but I hope both United and the police dept involved get the shit sued out of them to force both to consider their roles in such a shit policy.

However, I imagine the resulting bad PR will cost them a lot more than a law suit.

[Isgrimnur]

In my memory, I have never flown United. And I will make every effort to make sure that I never do.

It doesn't hurt that I live in American/Southwest country.

[Rip]

The alternative is to deplane everyone and then only allow the ones the want to reboard.

Be careful of the results of requiring them to use methods to protect people who meltdown when they are faced with a difficult situation. That is the kind of thing that has led to the fire people on Friday and have security escort them to their desk to recover their belongings and then to the door.

[gameoverman]

To me this is the same thing as walking down the street and having a cop detain you. If I'm walking down the street and a cop tells me to stop, I stop. It doesn't matter if I'm doing nothing illegal, it doesn't matter if he's just hassling me, it doesn't matter if there's been no crime at all. I comply or things will not go well for me.

All that stuff, the lack of probably cause and so on, that's to be dealt with later. I'm not going to win on those grounds when I'm on the street and it's me vs the cop.

On a passenger jet it's the same situation. They have the power in that plane, at that moment. When they tell you to exit, they aren't joking around. You might be allowed on the plane again later, you might be allowed on another flight, you might win a settlement...but right then and there you are doing nothing but getting off the plane.

Allowing passengers to determine if and when they will comply is not a viable alternative.

[ImLawBoy]

In my memory, I have never flown United. And I will make every effort to make sure that I never do.

It doesn't hurt that I live in American/Southwest country.

Don't kid yourself. This could easily happen on American or Southwest - it just happened to occur on United. You're not striking a blow for passenger rights by refusing to fly United - if someone had refused to deplane on American, you likely would have seen a similar result.

[em2nought]

They're just offering the wrong incentives. A really nice certificate showing membership in the Mile High Club signed by the crew and the cutest stewardess on board my next flight, and they can have my seat on any flight. A commemorative video would be great too. Particularly if it's a United ANA flight. On an ANA flight I'd be ok if they picked the stewardess at random. LMAO

[Zarathud]

An entitled doctor who thinks he's better than anyone else onboard? That episode of reality TV writes itself.

The stewardesses were doing their job, even if the policy sucks. Dealing with passengers who are dicks or treat them like prostitutes isn't part of their job. Security shows up to handle an unruly passenger who refuses to cooperate or follow instructions? I'm not surprised they used force. Disappointed, sure, but no one got home from that flight on time. The doctor least of all.

[Victoria Raverna]

An entitled doctor who thinks he's better than anyone else onboard? That episode of reality TV writes itself.

The stewardesses were doing their job, even if the policy sucks. Dealing with passengers who are dicks or treat them like prostitutes isn't part of their job. Security shows up to handle an unruly passenger who refuses to cooperate or follow instructions? I'm not surprised they used force. Disappointed, sure, but no one got home from that flight on time. The doctor least of all.

Why can't they solve the problem by selecting someone else? If the 4 passengers were selected at random then they can easily select at random one more person.

[Rip]

An entitled doctor who thinks he's better than anyone else onboard? That episode of reality TV writes itself.

The stewardesses were doing their job, even if the policy sucks. Dealing with passengers who are dicks or treat them like prostitutes isn't part of their job. Security shows up to handle an unruly passenger who refuses to cooperate or follow instructions? I'm not surprised they used force. Disappointed, sure, but no one got home from that flight on time. The doctor least of all.

Why can't they solve the problem by selecting someone else? If the 4 passengers were selected at random then they can easily select at random one more person.

Because it would say to people that if you act like enough of an ass you will get your way.

[Isgrimnur]

In my memory, I have never flown United. And I will make every effort to make sure that I never do.

It doesn't hurt that I live in American/Southwest country.

Don't kid yourself. This could easily happen on American or Southwest - it just happened to occur on United. You're not striking a blow for passenger rights by refusing to fly United - if someone had refused to deplane on American, you likely would have seen a similar result.

I don't. But then, I haven't heard of any incidents on them or Qantas, either.

I trust corporations marginally less than the government.

[Holman]

Maybe the guy was an ass, and maybe the police were operating within the limits of their job, but absolutely nothing about that should give United a pass on the shitstorm of bad publicity they've more than earned here.

If the norm becomes "Airlines can do whatever they please," the next step is to eject passengers without even offering them a hotel room, let alone a cash bonus. Why not overbook by dozens and teach passengers that every flight is a crapshoot? Maybe it'll become normal to buy two tickets, just in case.

Bad press is important in the fight for consumer rights. If other airlines learn their lesson from this, things might marginally improve.

[Carpet_pissr]

I can think of a few situations over the years where I would have been more than a little uncooperative if they pulled this shit with me.

Not life threatening situations, but extremely urgent that I get to my destination ASAP.

[Rip]

Maybe the guy was an ass, and maybe the police were operating within the limits of their job, but absolutely nothing about that should give United a pass on the shitstorm of bad publicity they've more than earned here.

If the norm becomes "Airlines can do whatever they please," the next step is to eject passengers without even offering them a hotel room, let alone a cash bonus. Why not overbook by dozens and teach passengers that every flight is a crapshoot? Maybe it'll become normal to buy two tickets, just in case.

Bad press is important in the fight for consumer rights. If other airlines learn their lesson from this, things might marginally improve.

Well there is certainly something wrong with the system.

Airlines are allowed to oversell flights, and they frequently do, because they assume that some passengers won't show up. U.S. airlines bumped 40,000 passengers last year, not counting those who volunteered to give up their seats.

When they know a flight is oversold, airlines will ask for volunteers to give up their seat, usually for a travel voucher or other reward, and a seat on a later flight. According to the government, 434,000 passengers voluntarily gave up seats on the country's largest 12 airlines last year, including nearly 63,000 on United. The champion of overbooking was Delta Air Lines - about 130,000 passengers on Delta agreed to give up their seats last year.

When voluntary offers don't work, the airlines can deny boarding - or "bump" passengers against their will. That appears to be what happened before Sunday night's United flight from Chicago to Louisville, Kentucky. When it comes to forcing passengers off a flight, Southwest is the undisputed leader among the larger airlines - it bumped nearly 15,000 passengers last year, according to government figures.

Federal rules spell out how much the airline must pay each passenger who is forced off a flight. Airlines must give bumped passengers a written statement that explains their compensation rights.

Link

[malchior]

Was just watching an analyst who works in aviation law saying the removal most likely was actionable as it likely violated their contract of carriage. The short of it was that there is no such thing as an involuntary bump once the plane is boarded. You can be denied boarding involuntarily but that is a different situation since they had boarded and had confirmed seats. There are additional criteria for removing someone forcibly from a flight in their carriage contract and there aren't any that cover this situation. The closest you get is refusing the instructions of an airline employee but he said you probably can't create that situation via an illegal action (very lawyer like qualifications and all). Interesting stuff.

[gilraen]

I don't. But then, I haven't heard of any incidents on them or Qantas, either.

Non-U.S.-based airlines are a WHOLE different animal. When given the option, I'm likely to pay more to fly a foreign airline (Air Canada doesn't count), simply to avoid horrible service and fees on U.S.-based airlines. (obviously not an option on a domestic flight, though)

[Moliere]

Only about $500M in market cap.

[hentzau]

This made me laugh...

[Holman]

https://twitter.com/InternetHippo/statu ... 4975347712

[hepcat]

Was just watching an analyst who works in aviation law saying the removal most likely was actionable as it likely violated their contract of carriage. The short of it was that there is no such thing as an involuntary bump once the plane is boarded. You can be denied boarding involuntarily but that is a different situation since they had boarded and had confirmed seats.

NPR interviewed someone from the FAA and this was his take on it as well. They are supposed to ask for volunteers BEFORE they board the plane. I've been on more than a few flights that were overbooked and I've never come across a situation where they didn't do this before boarding started.

Personally, I think this should be a PR nightmare for United. If they get enough backlash over this, maybe it will force some needed reforms in the airline industry.

[KDH]

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United CEO Doubles Down, Blames Passenger Who Got His Ass Kicked by Police

Oscar Munoz, the CEO of United

Dear Team,

Like you, I was upset to see and hear about what happened last night aboard United Express Flight 3411 headed from Chicago to Louisville. While the facts and circumstances are still evolving, especially with respect to why this customer defied Chicago Aviation Security Officers the way he did, to give you a clearer picture of what transpired, I’ve included below a recap from the preliminary reports filed by our employees.

As you will read, this situation was unfortunately compounded when one of the passengers we politely asked to deplane refused and it became necessary to contact Chicago Aviation Security Officers to help. Our employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this. While I deeply regret this situation arose, I also emphatically stand behind all of you, and I want to commend you for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.

I do, however, believe there are lessons we can learn from this experience, and we are taking a close look at the circumstances surrounding this incident. Treating our customers and each other with respect and dignity is at the core of who we are, and we must always remember this no matter how challenging the situation.

Oscar

Who has Botnet time they're owed?