Weird Science Thread

[Gavin]

It seems that strength and intelligence often find themselves on opposite ends of the spectrum. An equally unproveable resource I read around three years ago indicated that Neanderthals did not specialize in either areas of intelligence or areas of strength and so were ill-suited for survival.

Another source, if I remember correctly, spoke about the need to conserve energy and dissapate heat efficiently (one reason we don't have fur or significant layers of blubber like the vast majority of other other mammals). Since human brains use an exorbitant amount of resources (25% of all resources in adults) and since we were required to travel long distances in hotter temperatures our furless bodies would have helped us survive where Neanderthals could have failed if they had fur or if they were significantly less capable of dealing with long distances and heat.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ave-no-fur" target="_blank

An interesting fact is that we can outrun nearly any other animal on the planet like antelopes by just picking one and sticking with it. They will overheat before we do. Remarkable but an indication of another line of evolutionary advantages besides just our brains that make our species fit for survival.

http://discovermagazine.com/2006/may/tramps-like-us" target="_blank

[Isgrimnur]

Survival isn't about specialization, it's about adaptability. Those that can't adapt to a changing environment attempt to migrate or shift their grounds. If they run out of places to go, they're screwed.

I find it unreasonable that an unspecialized hominid is inferior to be unproveable as you. Wild dingoes don't approach bull mastiffs in strength or as smart as a border collie or poodle, yet they seem to thrive in their environment just fine.

[Gavin]

I find it unreasonable that an unspecialized hominid is inferior to be unproveable as you. Wild dingoes don't approach bull mastiffs in strength or as smart as a border collie or poodle, yet they seem to thrive in their environment just fine.

I was just referring to the fact that a wide number of sources claim this or that was "THE" thing that caused them to lose out. Perhaps they were perfectly adapted for the region they evolved in but that environment changed and just left then incapable of adapting in time. We don't know and so it's unproveable to say just how good or bad they were at what they did. We don't even have a firm handle on how intelligent they were, either, from what I can tell. Perhaps their specialization made them particularly vulnerable to new conditions that we were good at.

Ability to specialize and adaptability can actually be synonymous where evolution is concerned. Have an island where long beaks or wide beaks (specializations) are required to most successfully capture the island's two largest insect resources? That Island's bird population will evolve to specialize in one area or the other over time. Of course one that does neither very well could be at a disadvantage and die out (not that you disagree with that). If one species of insect is overfarmed, suddenly that species of bird with the particular advantage to farm that insect is suddenly at a disadvantage to get the remaining resources in that environment. This could be the neanderthal's fate.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

I think we're finding more and more than Neanderthals didn't just up and disappear, but rather many probably assimilated with Homo sapiens. Neanderthals were very well adapted to the cold climates of Europe and western Asia: their hair, their stockiness, etc. all was useful for that environment. It should also be noted that neanderthals as a distinct species (or subspecies depending on whom you ask) persisted for as long or longer than Homo sapiens sapiens have lasted so far. So it's not like they were completely ill-suited for their environment.

[Gavin]

I think we're finding more and more than Neanderthals didn't just up and disappear, but rather many probably assimilated with Homo sapiens. Neanderthals were very well adapted to the cold climates of Europe and western Asia: their hair, their stockiness, etc. all was useful for that environment. It should also be noted that neanderthals as a distinct species (or subspecies depending on whom you ask) persisted for as long or longer than Homo sapiens sapiens have lasted so far. So it's not like they were completely ill-suited for their environment.

From what I've read we're not even close relatives. I'll research that again quickly.

[Gavin]

I think we're finding more and more than Neanderthals didn't just up and disappear, but rather many probably assimilated with Homo sapiens. Neanderthals were very well adapted to the cold climates of Europe and western Asia: their hair, their stockiness, etc. all was useful for that environment. It should also be noted that neanderthals as a distinct species (or subspecies depending on whom you ask) persisted for as long or longer than Homo sapiens sapiens have lasted so far. So it's not like they were completely ill-suited for their environment.

From what I've read we're not even close relatives. I'll research that again quickly.

There is a debate on the subject:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/libra ... cat02.html" target="_blank

4. How are modern humans and Neanderthals related?

There is great debate about how we are related to Neanderthals, close hominid relatives who coexisted with our species from more than 100,000 years ago to about 28,000 years ago. Some data suggest that when anatomically modern humans dispersed into areas beyond Africa, they did so in small bands, across many different regions. As they did so, according to this hypothesis, humans merged with and interbred with Neanderthals, meaning that there is a little Neanderthal in all modern Europeans.

Scientific opinion based on other sets of data, however, suggests that the movement of anatomically modern humans out of Africa happened on a larger scale. These movements by the much more culturally and technologically advanced modern humans, the hypothesis states, would have been difficult for the Neanderthals to accommodate; the modern humans would have out-competed the Neanderthals for resources and driven them to extinction.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

A recent paper in Science suggests that 1 - 4% of the genome of Europeans has neanderthal origins. That isn't too shabby for a group that went extinct tens of thousands of years ago.

One model for modern human origins suggests that all present-day humans trace all their ancestry back to a small African population that expanded and replaced archaic forms of humans without admixture. Our analysis of the Neandertal genome may not be compatible with this view because Neandertals are on average closer to individuals in Eurasia than to individuals in Africa. Furthermore, individuals in Eurasia today carry regions in their genome that are closely related to those in Neandertals and distant from other present-day humans. The data suggest that between 1 and 4% of the genomes of people in Eurasia are derived from Neandertals. Thus, while the Neandertal genome presents a challenge to the simplest version of an “out-of-Africa” model for modern human origins, it continues to support the view that the vast majority of genetic variants that exist at appreciable frequencies outside Africa came from Africa with the spread of anatomically modern humans.

[Unagi]

I've heard stories about lonely sheep herders...

My money is on "Homo Sapiens brough the Neandertal into the fold", more or less.

[Gavin]

A recent paper in Science suggests that 1 - 4% of the genome of Europeans has neanderthal origins. That isn't too shabby for a group that went extinct tens of thousands of years ago.

One model for modern human origins suggests that all present-day humans trace all their ancestry back to a small African population that expanded and replaced archaic forms of humans without admixture. Our analysis of the Neandertal genome may not be compatible with this view because Neandertals are on average closer to individuals in Eurasia than to individuals in Africa. Furthermore, individuals in Eurasia today carry regions in their genome that are closely related to those in Neandertals and distant from other present-day humans. The data suggest that between 1 and 4% of the genomes of people in Eurasia are derived from Neandertals. Thus, while the Neandertal genome presents a challenge to the simplest version of an “out-of-Africa” model for modern human origins, it continues to support the view that the vast majority of genetic variants that exist at appreciable frequencies outside Africa came from Africa with the spread of anatomically modern humans.

That's a study from 2010, here's one from 2012:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/ ... erbreeding" target="_blank

There also appears to be significant debate about human contamination of neanderthal samples (samples they thought were neanderthal that are not or something like that, read the criticisms of this wiki). I will point out that regardless of opinion we don't share any mitochondrial DNA with Neanderthals which indicates either that Neanderthals were incapable of reproducing with human males or that human males did not mate with the females for some reason (perhaps male Neanderthals regularly raped humans, for example).

Here's an article from January 2012 saying we mixed with both Neanderthals and Denisovans

Here's a 1997 study that shows a sample that share no DNA that hasn't exactly been debunked.

My honest opinion. We have no clue whatsoever as to what the truth is. Not yet. Either way, the existence of interbreeding does not prove or explain the full assimilation of one into the other. Not necessarily. I do personally think there's a decent probability that we did reproduce with them (the fact that we don't share mitochondrial DNA seems to prove that a bit more to me for some reason, like it's a clear problem we had with compatibility that wasn't present in the rest of the DNA)

However, and this is just me throwing ideas around. If intermingling were common and human male/neanderthal female pairs were infertile, they would have naturally died out over time if the human population far outnumbered the neanderthal population. That's actually not a bad idea and would be somewhere in the middle. Not full assimilation and not fully something else.

[LordMortis]

They did a schtick on Neanderthal genes in the human genome on Nova Science Now last year it was interesting but at the same time was really light on details.

http://video.pbs.org/video/2288288291/" target="_blank

[Gavin]

They did a schtick on Neanderthal genes in the human genome on Nova Science Now last year it was interesting but at the same time was really light on details.

http://video.pbs.org/video/2288288291/" target="_blank

Yeah, that's the thing on this subject. We have a lot of ideas but it seems to be just out of our grasp.

I just brought this up to a coworker and they told me that they died out because they didn't have opposable thumbs.

Did I ever mention how pleased I am to have intelligent people to discuss things with?

[silverjon]

I once owned a dog who was trying to evolve opposable thumbs all by himself.

[Isgrimnur]

Hemingway was way ahead of you in that with cats.

[Kraken]

Neanderthals were incapable of reproducing with human males or that human males did not mate with the females for some reason (perhaps male Neanderthals regularly raped humans, for example).

Human chicks were just hotter.

[Isgrimnur]

Bring back the lumper:

As its name implies, this potato is not especially beautiful. It’s large, knobby and, well, lumpy, with pale brown skin and yellow flesh. Still, it was widely grown in Ireland before the famine because it did well in poor soil and could feed a lot of mouths
...
[F]armer Michael McKillop—a grower and packer for Northern Ireland’s Glens of Antrim potato suppliers—became interested in the antique tuber. He got his hands on some heirloom seeds and cultivated them.
...
Chef and native Dubliner Cathal Armstrong, who owns several Washington, D.C.-area restaurants, has mixed feelings about the return of the Lumper: “I think it’s both exciting and a little frightening, to bring back this species of potato that is related to so much devastation. But I would still love to get my hands on some and see how they taste. I guess it would be similar to bumping into the ghost of a long-lost relative in a dark alley.”
...
Too bad it’s not available in the U.S. But in Ireland, McKillop’s Lumpers—which he grew to be a bit smaller than those of the 1800s—can be purchased at the retail chain Marks & Spencer through the end of March. As for the future, McKillop has plans to plant ten new acres of Lumpers—enough to yield 150 metric tons for 2014.

There's even a recipe for Potato Gratin at the link.

[silverjon]

They don't look all that different from Yukon Gold.

[Isgrimnur]

Sounds like those immigrants to Ontario were trying to re-create a European variety.

Johnston and his research team at the University of Guelph potato-breeding program took up the task. After much contemplation, Johnston decided they should try to create a potato variety with normal size, shallow eyes, globular shape and yellow flesh.

After years of experimenting, they finally found their nugget when successfully crossbreeding an early-maturing, North Dakotan white potato variety called Norgleam, with a wild South American yellow-fleshed variety.

[Gavin]

You guys are probably already familiar with the double slit experiment but it's still difficult to believe in a lot of ways. So I thought I'd present it as best as I can and see if there's something I'm getting wrong.

The Matter setup: Imagine a square metal plate with a vertical rectangular slit/hole/slot in the middle of it. Imagine that is directly in front of a wall.

1. If you shot paintballs at random at that metal plate with one slit, there would be a rectangle of paint on the wall behind it where the paint balls got through.
2. If there were two slits, there would be two rectangles of paint.

The Wave setup: Imagine the same metal plate with the same slit/hole/slot is now halfway submerged in metal with a wall still behind it.

1. If you generate a wave in front, the single slitted plate will prevent all of the wave from passing through except for the little that gets through the slit which then creates a smaller wave whose crest hits one main spot on the wall.
2. If you have two slots, the two smaller waves that get through the slits interfere with eachother on the other side and create several main points of contact on the wall instead of just two.

The real experiment: Throw electrons one and then two slits.

1. With one slit, it behaves like a paintball (matter) with one verticle slit of area where electrons made it to the wall.
2. With two slits, it behaves like a wave (wave) with multiple slits showing up at the back.

The only reason that this could happen is if the electrons were interferring with eachother like a wave does.

Hypothesis testing:

They shot only one electron at a time through the two slits so there was no way they could interact with eachother and got surprising results (this is where things start to get weird for me), the single electrons still behaved like a wave and so the only possible conclusion was that a single electron was interacting with itself somehow.

Further testing:

Here's where things go loopy batshit crazy to me. When they tried to observe which slit the electron actually went through by adding a device to observe that, the results changed and the two slits resulted in the matter formation with only two slits where the electrons hit the wall.

The conclusion? The act of observing the electrons passing through somehow changed their behavior.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu57B1v0SzI" target="_blank

Now, I've studied Einstein (hidden variables that are yet to be discovered) and Bohr's (Principle of Complementarity which was accepted at the time but appears to have been disproven in 2007 by the Afshar experiment) responses to this. I've eveb read up on Hugh Everett's proposal of a divided reality but it seems that none of them really explain how one electron can interfere with itself and they certainly don't explain why observing it changes the action. There's the Path-integral formulation by Feynman (which is just a mathematical description and not an explanation) and the Relational interpretation by Carlo Rovelli which discusses the observation impact directly with no real explanation of the why/how and there seems to be a legitimate logical flaw in that theory that puts a wrench in it.

Am I missing some key theory or result that science has produced or is this still largely an unknown? Do I misunderstand the study and its results somehow? What forms of observation impact the path, is it only optical or something else since measuring where it lands doesn't seem to impact anything.

It would be easy to just say that electrons behave differently than waves and matter or both (like light), but that doesn't explain observation changing the results. If I had to guess, I'd still place Einstein at the top of the pack with the belief that there's missing information that we have not discovered or cannot measure.

[Isgrimnur]

they certainly don't explain why observing it changes the action.

Observer effect

For an electron to become detectable, a photon must first interact with it, and this interaction will change the path of that electron. It is also possible for other, less direct means of measurement to affect the electron.

[Gavin]

they certainly don't explain why observing it changes the action.

Observer effect

For an electron to become detectable, a photon must first interact with it, and this interaction will change the path of that electron. It is also possible for other, less direct means of measurement to affect the electron.

There are other methods of measurement. The Afshar experiment used lasers that passed through lenses with sensors around the outside that had similar results while completely side stepping the issues of photon interaction since it did not impact the intensity of the laser.

Likewise, photon interaction doesn't negate the electron reaching the end. The question even with photon interaction is why that interaction would cause electrons to then behave like matter instead of a wave.

I'd love to see a study with two double slit panels in front of the wall. One observed and the other not, both observed, neither, etc.

I mean, hell, look at the Quantum Zeno effect. In which an unstable partical will not decay when observed frequently enough (but would otherwise decay if not). There's some quantum weirdness afoot!

[Ralph-Wiggum]

First neanderthal/human hybrid found!

The skeletal remains of an individual living in northern Italy 40,000-30,000 years ago are believed to be that of a human/Neanderthal hybrid, according to a paper in PLoS ONE....

“From the morphology of the lower jaw, the face of the Mezzena individual would have looked somehow intermediate between classic Neanderthals, who had a rather receding lower jaw (no chin), and the modern humans, who present a projecting lower jaw with a strongly developed chin,” co-author Silvana Condemi, an anthropologist, told Discovery News.

Condemi is the CNRS research director at the University of Ai-Marseille. She and her colleagues studied the remains via DNA analysis and 3D imaging. They then compared those results with the same features from Homo sapiens.

The genetic analysis shows that the individual’s mitochondrial DNA is Neanderthal. Since this DNA is transmitted from a mother to her child, the researchers conclude that it was a “female Neanderthal who mated with male Homo sapiens.”

[coopasonic]

the researchers conclude that it was a “female Neanderthal who mated with male Homo sapiens.”

[/quote]

slut

[Gavin]

First neanderthal/human hybrid found!

The genetic analysis shows that the individual’s mitochondrial DNA is Neanderthal. Since this DNA is transmitted from a mother to her child, the researchers conclude that it was a “female Neanderthal who mated with male Homo sapiens.”

No modern human has Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA, so this would be a perplexing find. Then again, perhaps female neanderthal/male homosapien combinations produced infertile offspring while the opposite combination produces successful offspring (that can reproduce).

Either way, if valid, it is clear evidence of at least one instance of interbreeding.

[Isgrimnur]

Hey, you remember the Fringe premiere in 2008 where the dudes were all up in the transparent skin and stuff? It only took them three years to get that working for real:

cientists from Japan's RIKEN Brain Science Institute have ... developed a chemical reagent that causes the tissue surrounding the marked cells to become transparent.

Known as Scale, the reagent was created by a team led by Dr. Atsushi Miyawaki. Already, they have used it to turn mouse brain tissue clear, in order to optically image the fluorescently-labeled cerebral cortex, hippocampus and white matter.

[theohall]

This is an awesome thread. Nothing new to contribute yet.

[Daehawk]

Scientific American - strange but true stuff

[Kraken]

Is replicator technology here?

NASA can send robots to Mars, no problem. But if it’s ever going to put humans on the red planet it has to figure out how to feed them over the course of a years-long mission.

So the space agency has funded research for what could be the ultimate nerd solution: a 3-D printer that creates entrees or desserts at the touch of a button.

Yes, it’s another case of life imitating “Star Trek” (remember the food replicator?). In this case, though, the creators hope there is an application beyond deep-space pizza parties. The technology could also be used to feed hungry populations here on Earth.

Texas-based Systems and Materials Research Corp. has been selected for a $125,000 grant from NASA to develop a 3-D printer that will create “nutritious and flavorful” food suitable for astronauts, according to the company’s proposal. Using a “digital recipe,” the printers will combine powders to produce food that has the structure and texture of, well, actual food. Including smell.

[Isgrimnur]

Test tube burgers

A Dutch scientist hopes he’ll change minds about the viability of test tube meat when his first genetically engineered hamburger, made from billions of stem cells, is served hot off the grill.
...
While the process has taken time and run up considerable expense — the project received $325,000 from an anonymous donor — Post told the New York Times he hoped the cost of cultured meat could come down in the future, making it a viable food source.

After conducting an informal tasting, Post gave the synthetic tissue his seal of approval, telling the Times, it “tastes reasonably good” and that he planned to add just salt and pepper before serving it, perhaps at an event in London this summer.

Post told ABC News in 2011 that he expected meat consumption to double in the next 40 years.

[Kraken]

What if all the earth's water were collected in a sphere?

The large, obvious sphere is all of the water everywhere in the oceans, ice caps, lakes, and rivers, as well as groundwater, atmospheric water, and even the water in you, your dog, and your tomato plant.

The smaller sphere is the world's liquid fresh water (groundwater, lakes, swamp water, and rivers). 99 percent is groundwater, much of which is not accessible to humans.

The smallest, barely visible sphere is fresh water in all the lakes and rivers on the planet, and most of the water people and life of earth need every day.

[Isgrimnur]

There are FOUR QUARKS!

Physicists have resurrected a particle that may have existed in the first hot moments after the Big Bang. Arcanely called Zc(3900), it is the first confirmed particle made of four quarks, the building blocks of much of the Universe’s matter.
...
“The particle came as a surprise,” says Zhiqing Liu, a particle physicist at the Institute of High Energy Physics in Beijing and a member of the Belle collaboration, one of two teams claiming the discovery in papers published this week in Physical Review Letters.

Housed at the High Energy Accelerator Research Organization (KEK) in Tsukuba, Japan, the Belle detector monitors collisions between intense beams of electrons and their antimatter counterparts, positrons.
...
Some of that subatomic shrapnel matches what would be expected from the breakdown of a particle containing four quarks bound together: two especially heavy ‘charm’ quarks and two lighter quarks that give the particle a charge. With 159 of these Zc(3900) particles in hand, the Belle team reports that the chance that its result is a statistical fluke is less than 1 in 3.5 million. “They have clear evidence of a particle with four quarks,” says Riccardo Faccini, a particle physicist at the Sapienza University of Rome.

[stessier]

A bionic eye!

A “bionic eye” that allows people with late stage retinitis pigmentosa to see will be available in 12 markets later this year, per an announcement from University Hospitals. UH will offer the eye, which uses an implant to render a scene for patients in 50 to 60 pixels of black, white, and gray imagery.

...

According to Popular Science, the Argus II system is roughly the equivalent of 20/1260 vision, so patients can identify if an object is or isn’t in front of them, where it is, and whether it’s moving. The next generation of implants is still several years off, as is color vision.

Not great, but better than nothing I would imagine.

[stessier]

We don't have a Space Oops thread, so...

That Russian rocket that blew up on July 4th - installed some stuff upside down.

Each of those sensors had an arrow that was suppose to point toward the top of the vehicle, however multiple sensors on the failed rocket were pointing downward instead. As a result, the flight control system was receiving wrong information about the position of the rocket and tried to "correct" it, causing the vehicle to swing wildly and, ultimately, crash. The paper trail led to a young technician responsible for the wrong assembly of the hardware, but also raised serious issues of quality control at the Proton's manufacturing plant, at the rocket's testing facility, and at the assembly building in Baikonur. It appeared that no visual control of the faulty installation had been conducted, while electrical checks had not detected the problem since all circuits had been working correctly.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

Worms that regenerate their brains also regenerate their memories.

It’s hard to let go of some memories, even if your head has been chopped off. Well, at least if you’re a flatworm. When these tiny critters are decapitated, their heads and brain eventually grow back. But more remarkable than that, so too do their previous memories.

[silverjon]

Worms that regenerate their brains also regenerate their memories.

It’s hard to let go of some memories, even if your head has been chopped off. Well, at least if you’re a flatworm. When these tiny critters are decapitated, their heads and brain eventually grow back. But more remarkable than that, so too do their previous memories.

Lends further credence to the suggestion that there is something in flatworm tissue that stores or confers memory/learning in some fashion.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... -knowledge" target="_blank

[Isgrimnur]

800 square meters per gram:

For more than a century, scientists have been saying the same thing: It’s impossible to create a water-free disordered magnesium carbonate. It’s too difficult. You’ll never amount to anything! Well, suck it, haters: Researchers at Uppsala University in Sweden have unveiled a super-absorbent version of magnesium carbonate that breaks the world record for surface area and water absorption.

They call their miracle material Upsalite, and it's a form of magnesium carbonate—the inorganic salt used in everything from chalk to laxatives. Upsalite, however, has an incredibly high surface area, which is an extremely attractive quality since it means a material can absorb extra liquids. "It turned out that Upsalite had the highest surface area measured for an alkali earth metal carbonate," explained scientist Maria Strømme in a press release, "800 square meters per gram."

Like so many other great discoveries, Upsalite was actually an accident. The team at Uppsala was attempting to create a similar material using a reaction chamber at their lab. After a wild friday night of reaction chamber antics, they accidentally left some material inside the machine. When they returned, they found a material unlike any they'd ever seen.
...
It may eventually be used to keep electronics dry at smaller doses, or to clean up oil spills and toxic waste more safely.

[LordMortis]

Thinnest piece of glass discovered

http://www.livescience.com/39595-world- ... glass.html" target="_blank

[Kraken]

Bohemian Gravity

[Isgrimnur]

Bring on the plasmids:

Researchers at the University of Iowa have developed a bio patch that helps to regenerate and grow damaged bone, possibly meaning a new way of treating wounds.

The patch is a collagen “scaffold” seeded with synthetically created plasmids – self-replicating DNA molecules – for producing bone. Researchers reported that the bio patch led to significant bone regeneration and growth in animal lab testing.
...
The bio patch grew 44-times more bone and soft tissue in the affected area, and was 14-fold higher, than grew using the scaffold alone. And scans revealed that the plasmid-encoded scaffolds had generated enough new bone growth to nearly close the wound area, Lewis said.

[Isgrimnur]

Surfing for cystic fibrosis

Cystic fibrosis, it turns out, doesn’t like salt water. Inhaling it rehydrates the airways, allowing mucus to flow more easily and be dislodged by coughing. Patients have used saline nebulizers to achieve this effect for years, and new units are under development that people can use during sleep. But CF sufferers who would rather catch waves than z’s might get some of the same benefits (albeit at a much lower concentration) by hopping on a surfboard.

The effect of salt water on cystic fibrosis was actually discovered more than a decade ago, when Australian researchers noticed that patients in Sydney reported feeling better after spending time in the ocean. Experimentation later revealed that it was, indeed, the salt water; that’s why there are saline inhalers today. Now a group called Mauli Ola (“breath of life” in Hawaiian) is reviving the therapy—it has helped around 2,000 children and young adults with cystic fibrosis learn to surf with professional riders. “Surfing is my way of overcoming cystic fibrosis,” says Jacob Venditti, a 20-year-old patient who hopes to catch a 30-footer one day. “It’s my physical therapy every day that there are waves.” Gnarly, brah.

And Mauli Ola is working with UCSF Benioff Children's Hospital in San Fran.

[stessier]

Very cool. That is a really crummy disease - nice to see something that helps beat it back.