Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

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abr
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by abr »

If the litigation history of the Exxon Valdez oil spill is any indication, BP should also be able to find ways to significantly reduce and defer their liabilities.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Zaxxon »

I haven't been following as closely as I should have been, so forgive my ignorance. Is Stephen Colbert full of shit or is it true that the increased flow caused by BP's cutting of the pipe prior to 'capping' is greater than the amount they're siphoning to the boat? In other words, did they seriously take the positive PR of 'successfully' capping the leak when in actuality they increased the flow of oil into the gulf?
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Alefroth »

BP said the operation could increase the flow by 20%. By now, they are probably catching more than that.

Ale
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Zaxxon »

Alefroth wrote:BP said the operation could increase the flow by 20%. By now, they are probably catching more than that.

Ale
I know that's the assumption, but the numbers they gave out in terms of siphoning amount imply that if flow increased 20% based on the middle of the estimates of what was leaking before, they are siphoning less than 20% of the increased amount--less than the increased flow amount.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by LawBeefaroni »

The question is whether X(1.20)-Y is greater or less than X. We probably know Y (I think 11,000 bbl is what BP is saying, if you believe them).

The problem is we never knew X. And we can't even be sure about the 1.20.
Spoiler:
At least one expert, Ira Leifer, who is part of a government team charged with estimating the flow rate, is convinced that the operation has made the leak worse, perhaps far worse than the 20 percent increase that government officials warned might occur when the riser was cut.

Dr. Leifer said in an interview on Monday that judging from the video, cutting the pipe might have led to a several-fold increase in the flow rate from the well.
Basically for a net decrease in oil spewing into the gulf, the amount being captured must exceed the increase caused by cutting the crimp but we can't determine if it exceeds it or not.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Zaxxon »

LawBeefaroni wrote:The question is whether X(1.20)-Y is greater or less than X. We probably know Y (I think 11,000 bbl is what BP is saying, if you believe them).
Exactly. We probably can't know for sure, but it seems that the likely answer based on a 'reasonable' average of the estimates of X is that it's greater.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by em2nought »

I wonder how much was flowing with the saw stuck in the pipe? Seems like everything BP does leans more toward capturing oil instead of stopping oil.
Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Grifman »

em2nought wrote:I wonder how much was flowing with the saw stuck in the pipe? Seems like everything BP does leans more toward capturing oil instead of stopping oil.
All the stopping solutions have been tried, that's why. It's not going to stop until the relief wells are drilled and the well is plugged. Until then, it's capture all we can.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by GamrIrv »

I've asked this question before, but perhaps I can ask it in a better light now. Since they actually DO have a cap over the well, what's preventing them from pumping drilling mud directly into the BOP now until they can get the relief wells drilled? Yes I know the seal isn't 100%, but it combined with junk shotty goodness could do something maybe at plugging up those other leaks?
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Kraken »

Sith Lord wrote:
Ironrod wrote:Obama declared my county a disaster area because floods destroyed my water heater
Scene

Int: The oval office. Barack, a middle-aged black male, is sitting at an elaborate desk, hunched over a computer. His secretary, Katie, is off-screen.

Barack: Katie... is the Internet up for you?

Katie (OS): Hang on. Yes, sir. It's working fine for me.

Barack: Dammit. Dammit. You sure?

Katie (OS): I'm positive. Google's up. CNN's up. It's fine, sir. Can I help with something?

Barack: I don't... dammit. It's just, I'm trying to get to Curio City and it's down. I wanted to get a Panther Vision LED Power Cap for Rahm's birthday.

Katie (OS): Hmm. Well, that site isn't coming up for me either. One minute, sir, let me make a call.

Barack: Hrum. Supposed to be at a meeting with the Joint Chiefs in five minutes. I don't have time for this. Damn.

Katie (OS): Sir, it looks like that site's run out of the area in New England where they're having the heavy rain and flooding.

Barack: Motherfu- you mean? Dammit! That's not going to fly. Katie, clear my schedule and get Janet on the phone for me, would you please? This is a disaster!
:lol:

I want to know where the disaster teams were when I was bailing out my cellar with an 8-gallon shop vac.
Grifman wrote:
Enough wrote:
Ironrod wrote: I reckon that both liberals and conservatives can agree that socializing industrial disasters would be a bad idea.
They already basically are at least in terms of deleterious impacts. Bhopal anyone?
Well, duh, it's not like you can tell a cloud of gas or oil slick to target only certain people or areas, is it?
I should've said "federalizing".
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by LordMortis »

Nothing about a solution but fall guys appear to be starting to show.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... pen/57775/" target="_blank

You do have to wonder if people involved aren't suicidal over this. I'd have a nausiatingly hard time looking myself in the mirror every day. But I don't know how other people cope.
Yet Buzbee is convinced that the Gulf oil spill lawsuit will be his biggest ever. "It's the grandaddy of all cases," he said. "This is going to define BP and whether BP survives. This is going to be the biggest case in the history of the United States, no doubt about it."
Maybe. *shrug*
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by stessier »

LordMortis wrote:You do have to wonder if people involved aren't suicidal over this. I'd have a nausiatingly hard time looking myself in the mirror every day. But I don't know how other people cope.
I wouldn't have a problem. Bad things happen. Really bad things happen. But life goes on. The world is not going to end over this.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by GreenGoo »

stessier wrote:
LordMortis wrote:You do have to wonder if people involved aren't suicidal over this. I'd have a nausiatingly hard time looking myself in the mirror every day. But I don't know how other people cope.
I wouldn't have a problem. Bad things happen. Really bad things happen. But life goes on. The world is not going to end over this.
It's natural for people to feel remorse for those bad things, if they feel responsible for them. When really bad things happen, they feel really bad remorse. Sometimes people kill themselves if they feel bad enough.

Not everyone can be a fatalist, although it would probably reduce the number of working psychiatrists if they could.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Grifman »

GamrIrv wrote:I've asked this question before, but perhaps I can ask it in a better light now. Since they actually DO have a cap over the well, what's preventing them from pumping drilling mud directly into the BOP now until they can get the relief wells drilled? Yes I know the seal isn't 100%, but it combined with junk shotty goodness could do something maybe at plugging up those other leaks?
Why do you think it would work now when it didn't work previously? The cap doesn't change anything about the viability of plugging the well with mud.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by YellowKing »

Nothing about a solution but fall guys appear to be starting to show.
Makes my stressing over possibly accidentally deleting a time log of one of my users and causing her to lose a week's worth of data seem rather insignificant. Thanks, I feel much better now! :mrgreen:
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by GamrIrv »

I was under the impression that the previous attempt with the drilling mud was actually successful at forcing the oil back down the well. They only classified it as a failure because it kept leaking out of the big holes in the pipe. Perhaps I am completely wrong about that, but in my opinion, if you're pumping mud into a leaking pipe and it does prevent whatever you want from leaking but since the hole is still there, then the mud is leaking too, then it's still a partial success right? I'd much rather have them spending money on continually pumping mud down the well as long as the oil stays inside the well. Additionally the junk shot did not actually plug anything up but they also only tried it with one set of parameters. Maybe now that they have a bigger hole, they could use bigger pieces of junk. I don't know what the best solution is, but anything's gotta be better than this crap.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by theohall »

GamrIrv wrote:I was under the impression that the previous attempt with the drilling mud was actually successful at forcing the oil back down the well. They only classified it as a failure because it kept leaking out of the big holes in the pipe. Perhaps I am completely wrong about that, but in my opinion, if you're pumping mud into a leaking pipe and it does prevent whatever you want from leaking but since the hole is still there, then the mud is leaking too, then it's still a partial success right? I'd much rather have them spending money on continually pumping mud down the well as long as the oil stays inside the well. Additionally the junk shot did not actually plug anything up but they also only tried it with one set of parameters. Maybe now that they have a bigger hole, they could use bigger pieces of junk. I don't know what the best solution is, but anything's gotta be better than this crap.
There is only one known reliable solution - relief wells - just like 1979. And those take time.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by GamrIrv »

theohall wrote: There is only one known reliable solution - relief wells - just like 1979. And those take time.

I know. I was stating that IF injecting drilling mud into the BOP is capable of preventing or at least significantly reducing the flow of oil into the Gulf, then WHY NOT keep pumping the mud in UNTIL the relief wells can be built?
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Chaz »

I think the problem is that the mud wasn't actually cutting the flow of oil in any significant way. The theory that I think they're going with is that somewhere in or below the blowout preventer, there's a ruptured gasket, and thus a sub-surface leak. They pump the mud in, but it goes out that leak, and no seal. There were reports that someone on the rig pre-explosion may have bumped a joystick controlling the drill head angle or something and shortly after, chunks of rubber, presumably from a destroyed gasket, started coming up the pipe.

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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by abr »

I think there was also the danger of further damage to the blowout preventer by the high pressure with which they had to pump in the mud.
Chaz wrote:IANA Oil Well Expert.
+1
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Well, IAAOWE and it's pretty obvious that BP couldn't stop the flow because the foozlesnaggle valve on the wassit was obtusified by the mudweller and the sidekill crimper had been disfulsified by the decision to waggle the flushstopper.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by hentzau »

LawBeefaroni wrote:Well, IAAOWE and it's pretty obvious that BP couldn't stop the flow because the foozlesnaggle valve on the wassit was obtusified by the mudweller and the sidekill crimper had been disfulsified by the decision to waggle the flushstopper.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

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BP Cofee spill

" target="_blank
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His name makes me think of a small, burrowing rodent anyway.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

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:lol:
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Smoove_B »

The Washington Post would like you to change "buttload" to 1 million gallons / day.

Ooof.
If the team's estimate is correct, and the flow has been more or less consistent, approximately 1.3 million to 1.5 million barrels, or 53.6 million to 64.3 million gallons, of oil have emerged from the well since the April 20 blowout. That is roughly five to six times the amount spilled in Alaskan waters in 1989 by the Exxon Valdez.
Maybe next year, maybe no go
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by stessier »

I'm pretty sure this hasn't been posted yet.

NSFW for an F-bomb at the very end.

BP Spills Coffee
" target="_blank
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Grifman »

A review of Big Oil oil spill mitigation plans for the Gulf shows the following:
Four of the five largest oil companies have produced oil disaster response plans for the Gulf of Mexico that discuss how to protect walruses, even though there are no walruses in the Gulf.
Oil disaster response plans are "virtually identical." They all tout "ineffective identical equipment" and often use "the exact same words" in their plans.
These are "cookie-cutter plans" that, in reality, are little more than "just paper exercises
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/06/15/ma ... ns/?hpt=T1" target="_blank

Two points:

Obviously, they never took this seriously.

And the govt obviously never read these plans either.

Unbelievable.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by noxiousdog »

Grifman wrote:A review of Big Oil oil spill mitigation plans for the Gulf shows the following:
Four of the five largest oil companies have produced oil disaster response plans for the Gulf of Mexico that discuss how to protect walruses, even though there are no walruses in the Gulf.
Oil disaster response plans are "virtually identical." They all tout "ineffective identical equipment" and often use "the exact same words" in their plans.
These are "cookie-cutter plans" that, in reality, are little more than "just paper exercises
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/06/15/ma ... ns/?hpt=T1" target="_blank

Two points:

Obviously, they never took this seriously.

And the govt obviously never read these plans either.

Unbelievable.
I find the ability of congressmen to blame others amazing. They do realize that they are responsible for ensuring the regulations for the environment these companies work in, no?
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Freezer-TPF- »

"It looks like you're writing an oil disaster response plan. Would you like some help with that?"

Image
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by LawBeefaroni »

UPDATE: BP: Temporary Shut-Down On Discoverer Enterprise After Fire
Last update: 6/15/2010 3:17:53 PM
(Adds details on oil recovery efforts.)

HOUSTON (Dow Jones)--BP PLC (BP) on Tuesday shut down its oil containment and recovery operation in the U.S. Gulf of Mexico as a safety precaution, following a fire aboard the vessel that has been processing the oil.

This is the latest snag in the company's two-month effort to contain oil spewing from the broken Macondo well at rates estimated by scientists at 20,000 to 40,000 barrels a day.

Around 9:30 a.m. CDT, a small fire was observed at the top of the derrick on the Discoverer Enterprise, the collection ship.

The fire, believed to have been ignited by a lightning strike, was quickly extinguished, BP said in a statement.
Mirrored here.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Freezer-TPF- »

BP just can't catch a break, can they? I heard they also have a ten-year sponsorship deal with the English goalie.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Grifman »

noxiousdog wrote: I find the ability of congressmen to blame others amazing. They do realize that they are responsible for ensuring the regulations for the environment these companies work in, no?
I'm certainly not a fan of Congress but I don't think that's quite fair. Congress writes the laws and they apparently wrote a law requiring a mitigation/containment plan. It's the Executive branch that is supposed to enforce the law, and they quite clearly failed here.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by noxiousdog »

Grifman wrote:
noxiousdog wrote: I find the ability of congressmen to blame others amazing. They do realize that they are responsible for ensuring the regulations for the environment these companies work in, no?
I'm certainly not a fan of Congress but I don't think that's quite fair. Congress writes the laws and they apparently wrote a law requiring a mitigation/containment plan. It's the Executive branch that is supposed to enforce the law, and they quite clearly failed here.
I suppose that does depend on whom the oversight agency reports to, but congress does have the ability to request hearings and feedback.

Regardless, you won't see them blaming themselves for not requiring backup blowout preventers as they do in Norway, for example.

Also, if this were an isolated incident, I'd cut them more slack, but in the last 18 months, it's been a fiasco of blaming everybody but themselves across a number of large systemic failures.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Dogstar »

Smoove_B wrote:The Washington Post would like you to change "buttload" to 1 million gallons / day.

Ooof.
If the team's estimate is correct, and the flow has been more or less consistent, approximately 1.3 million to 1.5 million barrels, or 53.6 million to 64.3 million gallons, of oil have emerged from the well since the April 20 blowout. That is roughly five to six times the amount spilled in Alaskan waters in 1989 by the Exxon Valdez.
And the U.S. government would like to update the previous figure from 1 million gallons a day to somewhere between 1.47 and 2.52 million gallons a day.

Ooof indeed.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by BooTx »

I don't know anything about oil drilling, so can someone in the (relative) know explain to me why drilling twenty production wells into this reservoir is a terrible idea? Because from where I sit, the relief wells they're drilling to perform a bottom kill on this thing are most assuredly not a sure thing. And if the bottom kills fail, not only are we basically out of options for plugging this well, but due to the forces from the oil itself, the entire structure could erode and eventually fail catastrophically.

If that were to happen (and unless someone comes up with some real bright ideas) we're looking at this entire thing draining into the ocean over the span of who knows how many decades (I've seen estimates of 2-3 billion barrels of oil, and even higher, which would take 80+ years to leak out at 150,000 barrels a day).

It would seem to me that drilling as many production wells as possible into the reserve to collect as much as we can would be the only option left at that point. But like I said, I don't know what kind of effects multiple wells in the same reservoir would have and what risks they would introduce. But I think we should be planning for the worst case scenario, because if it does come, and if there's something that can possibly be done about it, I don't think we should be six months away from being able to do so.

edit - And yeah I assume that it would never drain completely, since the pressure would eventually equalize. Unless the sea floor above it collapsed as it drained, that is.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by LordMortis »

Does this make sense?

http://robertreich.org/post/650145579/w ... ceivership" target="_blank

If BP is left in charge because they are the ones with the tools and people knowledgeable enough to fix the problem but they BP are also the ones distorting what is going on, locking down security along the coast, and seem to be more beholden to spinning the problem, is there a point where the government replaces their leadership like they did with GM?

What happens if they try and do this with a "foreign" company?

Anyhow, another interesting take.
5. The President is not legally in charge. As long as BP is not under the direct control of the government he has no direct line of authority, and responsibility is totally confused. For example, listen for the “we” and “they” pronouns that were used by Carol Browner in response to a question on NBC’s “Meet the Press” Sunday (emphasis added): “We’re now going to move into a situation where they’re going to attempt to control the oil that’s coming out, move it to a vessel, take it onshore ….We always knew that the relief well was the permanent way to close this .… Now we move to the third option, which is to contain it. If [the new cap on the relief well is] a snug fit, then there could be very, very little oil. If they’re not able to get as snug a fit, then there could be more. We’re going to hope for the best and prepare for the worst.” When you get pronoun confusion like this, you can bet on confusion — both inside the Administration and among the public. There is no good reason why “they” are in charge of an operation of which “we” are hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by LawBeefaroni »

LordMortis wrote:
There is no good reason why “they” are in charge of an operation of which “we” are hoping for the best and preparing for the worst.
No good reason except a law passed in the wake of the Valdez spill.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Isgrimnur »

Prelim settlement terms: $20 bln in an escrow fund deposited over several years, to be administered by the TARp executive pay dude.

LA Times
The Obama administration has reached a preliminary agreement with BP executives that would see the oil company pay $20 billion over several years into an independently controlled escrow account to be established to compensate Gulf of Mexico residents affected by the disastrous oil spill.

The agreement was negotiated in a meeting at the White House on Wednesday morning, the first face-to-face gathering between President Obama and senior BP leadership. A White House official said that, under the terms of the deal, the fund would be administered by attorney Kenneth Feinberg, currently serving as the special master for executive pay under the Troubled Asset Relief Program. Feinberg ran a fund that compensated victims of the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by $iljanus »

From NYT article after BP execs meet with The Man at the White House:
Mr. Svanberg said that it was clear from the meeting today at the White House that President Obama “is frustrated because he cares about the small people,” he said. “And we care about the small people. I hear comments sometimes that large oil companies are greedy companies or don’t care. But that is not the case indeed, we care about the small people.”
I can't seem to stop attaching a condescending tone to the statement. Then again, I'm just one of the "small people"....
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Arcanis
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Re: Gulf Coast rig leaking buttloads of oil/day

Post by Arcanis »

$iljanus wrote:From NYT article after BP execs meet with The Man at the White House:
Mr. Svanberg said that it was clear from the meeting today at the White House that President Obama “is frustrated because he cares about the small people,” he said. “And we care about the small people. I hear comments sometimes that large oil companies are greedy companies or don’t care. But that is not the case indeed, we care about the small people.”
I can't seem to stop attaching a condescending tone to the statement. Then again, I'm just one of the "small people"....
My thought is what about the Fat people. You know Louisiana has a huge obesity problem. :horse:

In actuality any time someone uses "small people" or "little guy" it sounds condescending to me, unless they are literally talking about someone with dwarfism.
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