N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

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What do you think?

of the video - wicked bad
5
9%
of the video - bad
16
30%
of the video - good
3
6%
of the video - REALLY cool: only a bleeding heart would complain about this
2
4%
other
0
No votes
of the reaction - wicked overblown
12
22%
of the reaction - overblown
5
9%
of the reaction - somewhat appropriate
8
15%
of the reaction - very appropriate
3
6%
 
Total votes: 54

craterus
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N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by craterus »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ja ... es-too-far" target="_blank

have I totally missed the 3 page thread on this topic already?
Perhaps Captain Owen Honors imagined he was in outer space. The commander of the USS Enterprise – not the Star Trek starship but a nuclear-powered American warship – boldly went where no sensible American navy officer would venture in the 21st century with a series of video "entertainments" for his crew that included insulting gay people, appearing with two women in the shower and plenty of simulated masturbation.

Now Honors has been dismissed as captain after one of the crew complained and the navy branded the videos, shown on the Enterprise in 2006 and 2007, "not acceptable".

Honors was the second in command of the aircraft carrier when he made the films which were shown on the ship's internal video system for all the crew to see.

One of the videos opens with an unmistakable declaration of intent: "This evening, all you bleeding hearts and you fags ... why don't you just go ahead and hug yourselves for the next 20 minutes or so because there's a really good chance you're going to be offended tonight".

There follows what are described as a series of "racey topics" – from a definition of the expletive "fuck" to plenty of simulated masturbation– including one in which Honors is seen in a dressing gown, glass of champagne in one hand and a cigar in the other.
Last edited by craterus on Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by McNutt »

I haven't seen the video, but the media seems to be creating a story about this. Even if the video was horrendous, does it deserve as much attention as it's receiving?
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by theohall »

Having served on the ship when those were aired to the Ship's crew, they dramatically improved morale when morale was way down. IMO, the actions being taken now - 4 years later - are political correctness gone completely wrong.

Captain Honors was a leader who engaged the crew and kept everyone up, in spite of the crew being on their 3rd deployment in a 30 month span. (6 months out, 6 months home, 6 months out, 6 months home, then 6 months out again) Those 6 months home weren't all at home either. They included work-ups - which are about 2 weeks at sea - several times during the 6 month home times.

Context matters and it is not even being considered. War takes it's toll on folks and when someone goes outside the box to improve morale and succeeds, they shouldn't be fired for it.

My challenge to the idiots firing him - find someone from those crews who served under him when those were aired ask what they think. Good luck finding someone who agrees with the current state of affairs.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by El Guapo »

theohall wrote:My challenge to the idiots firing him - find someone from those crews who served under him when those were aired ask what they think. Good luck finding someone who agrees with the current state of affairs.
Well, FWIW the article says that someone from the crew complained. I suppose that doesn't necessarily mean that the crew member thought he should be fired, but I guess at least one person was unhappy about what Honors did.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Bakhtosh »

Here's a little more perspective.

These were shown in 2006 & 2007.

He was dismissed as Captain in 2010 because "one of his crew complained"...

...about a morale boosting video shown 4 years earlier...

...which no one complained about at the time.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Isgrimnur »

I'm all for morale-building and thinking outside the box, but when your superior goes out of his way to insult and offend their colleagues and subordinates, I believe that it's crossing a line that shouldn't be crossed. Not everyone can tell when it's a joke and when it's not.

He very well may be a fine officer in many respects, and I certainly respect your opinion, theohall, but on this topic, I respectfully disagree and think he was out of line.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Mr. Fed »

Bakhtosh wrote:Here's a little more perspective.

These were shown in 2006 & 2007.

He was dismissed as Captain in 2010 because "one of his crew complained"...

...about a morale boosting video shown 4 years earlier...

...which no one complained about at the time.
If no one complained at the time, why is he talking furiously at the start of one of the videos about somebody complaining about them, and then angrily sneering about how he is about to offend some people?
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Mr. Fed »

Incidentally, the poll is utterly borked, or I am misunderstanding it -- the question talks about the "situation", but some options seem to be talking about the videotapes, rather than the reaction to them.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by McNutt »

Let's assume that the videos are offensive. Should showing those videos as a morale boost during a war be enough to end the career of someone in command of an aircraft carrier? The Navy has invested a ton of money in this guy and I don't know that I'm happy with a decision to throw that away because of a video that someone found offensive. I don't like the obligatory call to fire someone for any offense.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Mr. Fed »

McNutt wrote:Let's assume that the videos are offensive. Should showing those videos as a morale boost during a war be enough to end the career of someone in command of an aircraft carrier? The Navy has invested a ton of money in this guy and I don't know that I'm happy with a decision to throw that away because of a video that someone found offensive. I don't like the obligatory call to fire someone for any offense.

The question is: is the Navy being punitive? (You did something bad, we must punish you.) Is the Navy attempting deterrence? (If you do something bad, you will lose your command, like this guy.) Is the Navy being "politically correct"? (Saying "fags" is bad, so we will fire you.) Or is the Navy being prudential, possibly in an over-cautious way?

Put it this way -- as I understand it, this guy was not just going to be in charge of the carrier (price tag, including aircraft and personnel -- elventy billion dollars), but also in charge of the carrier group (add more billions), an amount of firepower that we shrug at now but that exceeds most of the firepower in human history.

The Navy wants to be really, really sure it trusts a guy who has the keys in that situation. As I understand it, that's especially true now, in an era where any mistake or blemish, no matter how minor, can keep you from rising above a certain point.

This guy was the XO of a ship, and decided that he would raise morale by starring in, producing, and sending a series of off-color videos, including some slurs. Then, when some people suggest that the videos are not appropriate, he gets really angry, makes the start of the next video a near-explicit "fuck you" to any service member who was offended, and doubles down.

He does that not in, say, 1972, or 1982, or even 1992, but in 2007.

The Navy looks at this. They see someone who, as XO, made and distributed a video with masturbation and "fag" talk and stuff, and who reacted to criticism about it by dialing it up higher. The Navy thinks, "everyone loves this guy. He has a great service record. He was a swell pilot. He's technically very competent. Even in light of this, we're pretty sure he doesn't have any serious deficits of judgment. But -- in light of this -- are we give-him-a-nuclear-carrier-group sure? Eh . . . maybe not. What if he screws up? Then someone might ask why we thought he had good judgment. Let's put in someone with an utterly unblemished record."
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by AWS260 »

McNutt wrote:Let's assume that the videos are offensive. Should showing those videos as a morale boost during a war be enough to end the career of someone in command of an aircraft carrier? The Navy has invested a ton of money in this guy and I don't know that I'm happy with a decision to throw that away because of a video that someone found offensive. I don't like the obligatory call to fire someone for any offense.
Yes, the Navy should institute a sliding scale that matches the offense to the amount we've invested in the sailor. Admiral masturbates during a church service? Verbal warning. Ensign makes an inappropriate joke about his bunkmate's mother? Dishonorable discharge.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Unagi »

Mock jerk-off videos is something I'd really like to believe is beneath the type of officer given a command position of this caliber.

And then to think this is done to boost the morale of the entire ship. That's pretty depressing too.

At best, I'd leave that video thinking my ship was being commanded by idiots.

I'm probably totally delusional as to my vision of a commanding officer.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by The Meal »

AWS260 wrote:Yes, the Navy should institute a sliding scale that matches the offense to the amount we've invested in the sailor. Admiral masturbates during a church service? Verbal warning. Ensign makes an inappropriate joke about his bunkmate's mother? Dishonorable discharge.
Those are both dishonorable discharges.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Scuzz »

Bakhtosh wrote:Here's a little more perspective.

These were shown in 2006 & 2007.

He was dismissed as Captain in 2010 because "one of his crew complained"...

...about a morale boosting video shown 4 years earlier...

...which no one complained about at the time.

Not true. There is a report that on one of the video's he addresses complaints about his videos. Thus proving that complaints were coming in "at the time".

I still don't know if it is a fire able offense, but it would be enough to prevent any higher command. The higher in command you go the more diplomatic you must prove yourself.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by AWS260 »

Unagi wrote:I'm probably totally delusional as to my vision of a commanding officer.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Bakhtosh »

He claims there were complaints. Truth, or just showmanship?

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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Enough »

Bakhtosh wrote:He claims there were complaints. Truth, or just showmanship?

"The man is after me, but I don't care - I'm doing this for all of you! oorah!"
Is it your honest belief that nobody ever complained?
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by craterus »

Mr. Fed wrote:Incidentally, the poll is utterly borked, or I am misunderstanding it -- the question talks about the "situation", but some options seem to be talking about the videotapes, rather than the reaction to them.
while i didn't think it was utterly borked... one of the options was kind of unclear...

I have updated the poll so that we can vote for two options (ideally: once about the video and once about the reaction)

my initial reaction was (had an uncle and a neighbor in the navy - 60's 70's) - sounds like the utterly coarse humor that a navy man would have (based on my experience of being around two lower level sailors - not upper ranked guys).

Surprised that an XO in todays navy would do that... but maybe he was afraid of being portrayed as major frank burns-type


theohall wrote:Having served on the ship when those were aired to the Ship's crew, they dramatically improved morale when morale was way down. IMO, the actions being taken now - 4 years later - are political correctness gone completely wrong.
is it normal for xo's to do morale entertainment? while it appears extremely crude, I don't think i can hold it against someone (too much) who is not a professional comedian or entertainer if he does a bit that gets into inappropriate areas.

as morale officer - does he have a staff that writes and produces the material as their job? then yeah - it seems like it was kind of dumb to get into hate speech (but if not and he is whipping something together on short notice at the end of a long day and it gets inappropriate - then it seems kind of dumb to get too worked up about it)
Last edited by craterus on Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Odin »

I don't buy the argument that because these videos were good for morale they ought to be (or have been) condoned. If you need entertainment, bring in the USO. It's not the XO's job to make highly questionable videos in the name of giving the crew a chuckle, no matter how desperately that chuckle may be perceived to be needed. No, I haven't served in the military. As a citizen, I still believe I'm entitled to an opinion about how our seniormost military officers ought to behave, and this ain't it.

I do agree that this man should have been censured for his behaviour back when the videos were initially made. His CO should have busted him at the time with appropriate disciplinary action to the offense. But he or she did not do so then, so it's been done for him and to him now. More heads will likely roll than just Capt. Honor's.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Grundbegriff »

The Meal wrote:Those are both dishonorable discharges.
I didn't want this to go unacknowledged.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by GreenGoo »

Grundbegriff wrote:
The Meal wrote:Those are both dishonorable discharges.
I didn't want this to go unacknowledged.
I even paused for a moment when I read it, and it still went over my head.

:oops:
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by El Guapo »

GreenGoo wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:
The Meal wrote:Those are both dishonorable discharges.
I didn't want this to go unacknowledged.
I even paused for a moment when I read it, and it still went over my head.

:oops:
Yeah, I missed this too. Which would have been a shame, because it's really good.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Daehawk »

I've not seen the video either. And I can't find it anywhere.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Sherpa »

Daehawk wrote:I've not seen the video either. And I can't find it anywhere.
You fail at the Internet :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WopAHvbg9LU

Having grown up as a Navy brat and worked with or otherwise been around sailors most of my life, this is pretty tame -- and not all that funny. That said, I find it hard to imagine any officers of that rank I ever knew behaving like that, at least on camera...

It's a PR problem for the Navy, which is likely the main reason the guy was relieved -- especially several years after the fact.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Rip »

I decided to get out at soon as they did away with beards. As PC as they are now I would never suggest anyone join our military again. They will soon be just as wimpy as our politicians.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Mr. Fed »

Rip wrote:I decided to get out at soon as they did away with beards. As PC as they are now I would never suggest anyone join our military again. They will soon be just as wimpy as our politicians.
Well, now they don't need beards, do they?
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by silverjon »

Not anymore, since it's permissible to be openly gay.
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Mr. Fed »

Yes. Yes, that was the joke. Thank you.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by silverjon »

I expect 90% of the populace to not be gay enough to get that one without assistance.
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by coopasonic »

silverjon wrote:I expect 90% of the populace to not be gay enough to get that one without assistance.
Well the military guys anyhow.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Mr. Fed »

silverjon wrote:I expect 90% of the populace to not be gay enough to get that one without assistance.
Are you offering to be my official gay reference translator? I want to make it clear that it would be strictly platonic. Civilian platonic, not military-platonic.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Fretmute »

silverjon wrote:I expect 90% of the populace to not be gay enough to get that one without assistance.
Now we need a photoshop contest for the best "You must be this gay" roller coaster ruler.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Scuzz »

Rip wrote:I decided to get out at soon as they did away with beards. As PC as they are now I would never suggest anyone join our military again. They will soon be just as wimpy as our politicians.

i thought they did away with beards because the woman sailors couldn't grow them soit was unfair of the men to........ :roll:
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Mr. Fed wrote:Incidentally, the poll is utterly borked, or I am misunderstanding it -- the question talks about the "situation", but some options seem to be talking about the videotapes, rather than the reaction to them.
It's a "choose two poll." Not 100% clear but not utterly borked.

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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Shinjin »

(First name Robert?)
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by theohall »

Scuzz wrote:
Rip wrote:I decided to get out at soon as they did away with beards. As PC as they are now I would never suggest anyone join our military again. They will soon be just as wimpy as our politicians.

i thought they did away with beards because the woman sailors couldn't grow them soit was unfair of the men to........ :roll:
I know you are being sarcastic, but the real reason for doing away with beards is gas masks. Facial hair prevents getting a good seal on a gas mask which means you are screwed if hit with a chemical/biological weapon because your mask will fail if you have a beard.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by theohall »

Odin wrote:I don't buy the argument that because these videos were good for morale they ought to be (or have been) condoned. If you need entertainment, bring in the USO. It's not the XO's job to make highly questionable videos in the name of giving the crew a chuckle, no matter how desperately that chuckle may be perceived to be needed. No, I haven't served in the military. As a citizen, I still believe I'm entitled to an opinion about how our seniormost military officers ought to behave, and this ain't it.

I do agree that this man should have been censured for his behaviour back when the videos were initially made. His CO should have busted him at the time with appropriate disciplinary action to the offense. But he or she did not do so then, so it's been done for him and to him now. More heads will likely roll than just Capt. Honor's.
What is totally missing is context. All of the "masturbation" things happened at different times througout the time he was there. On Friday night's, the ship had a movie night. The XO would be in a video before poking fun at stuff in Navy life onboard an aircraft carrier. The hand gesture things all happened as off the cuff things (except the choking the chicken one when he is literally holding a stuffed chicken with both hands) at different times on different days. The video aired was a "send off" making fun of him as he was leaving the ship at the end of the deployment for a new command.

How many of you have made off-the-cuff hand gestures over a 2-year time span? Have you had them filmed? What would it look like if they were all filmed and put together and presented? Context. Which doesn't seem to exist today.

I keep hearing the "there were two girls together in a shower" on the video. Did they mention the two girls were fully clothed, not touching each other, and made pretend "shocked" faces? No. Again. CONTEXT!

It matters. But apparently not in today's overboard politically correct reactions.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Isgrimnur »

Perception is reality, theo. It doesn't matter to the public what the context is when you're a government employee.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

Post by Odin »

theohall wrote:What is totally missing is context.
I saw a minute or so of footage with this man as the "main character." There's no context in which that material would be appropriate to a senior naval officer or, for that matter, a senior business executive. Had I done something similar at the jobs where I held a senior position, I would expect to have been disciplined formally and through the general disapproval of my peers. And at no point was I in a position to make life-or-death decisions - my job was much less critical, yet I would have been held to a similar standard for this sort of conduct.

I get that you and a lot of other people really enjoyed this man's video skits. I do. However in the context of the XO on one of the most powerful fighting vessels in the world, a senior naval officer in the United States military, his conduct was not acceptable. The media shone a spotlight on it, but they didn't invent his behaviour.
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Re: N A V Y - a global force of entertainment

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