Help Support OO by buying through our affiliates: Amazon.com OO Link
For other methods please see this thread

A Dance With Dragons -Impressions start p6, open spoilers p8

Everything else!

Moderators: Bakhtosh, EvilHomer3k

A Dance With Dragons -Impressions start p6, open spoilers p8

Postby Zaxxon » Sat Mar 26, 2011 1:55 pm

Update 8/11/11: Spoiler tags went out of fashion late in page 8's lifespan. Be warned--if you haven't finished ADWD, do not read that far into this thread. The first 5 1/4 or so pages are safe to read before you read ADWD, and pages 6 and 7 are spoilered.

Warning: this will hopefully be a very dense thread. :) I finished my re- re-read of the first four books in the series last night. It only took me six months this time! In an effort both to help me keep the series fresh in my mind for the next 3 months and 16 days and to have a fun discussion on what we're all expecting in book 5, I bring you this thread. We've had small discussions about ADWD in various and sundry other threads. Now we have a single location as the release finally approaches (yay!). I have a few things I'd like to discuss in this thread, but feel free to use it for any ADWD-related news, questions, or discussions. I'm hoping that having one central thread along with the fact that the book is finally actually really tangibly coming Real Soon Now™ will encourage all the OOer ASoIaF fans to participate. Perhaps we'll even have a nice group reading come July... With all that said, this is going to be a massively spoilerific thread for the first four books. If you haven't yet finished AFFC, get thee out. (And really, what's the deal? You've had more than five years. Come now.)

So here we go.

ADWD News: Roy Dotrice will be doing the audiobook of ADWD. We've known for a long time that GRRM wanted to return to Dotrice, but as of last night it's finally official.

Things my re-read of AFFC made clear: The fourth book is actually quite good. I think I (and frankly, many of you other fans) were taken aback on first read by the fact that many of our favorite characters from the first three books were not included in AFFC and we closed down. Took our ball and went home. I liked AFFC on my first read, but thought it was clearly the weakest book in the series, a solid step below the first three. After my second read, I've warmed to the book significantly. I wouldn't say it's my favorite, but it's on par as a worthy entry in the series as a whole. When I entered the book with a truly open mind, I found both the Iron Islands and Dorne sections to be quite fulfilling. I think it was necessary to give us readers a fuller introduction to those two cultures in order for the rest of the series to play out as Martin has planned, and I think AFFC makes a better book focusing on these areas and a subset of Westeros than it would have if these areas had been added in on top of Dany, Tyrion, Davos, and the rest that were cut from the book. There'd have been 300 pages between each chapter in Dorne or the Iron Islands. And the two Oldtown chapters that bookend AFFC seem to have so much deeper of a meaning than what's obvious on the surface, they set the stage for another cool area to cover in the remaining books. In any event, I liked it much better the second time around.

Things I'm looking forward to in ADWD: Some of these will definitely be answered or at the least have progress made in ADWD. Some may not, as they relate to the areas covered in AFFC. It's worth noting that while ADWD is for the most part a 'companion' book to AFFC, taking place at the same time and covering different characters, this isn't completely the case. GRRM has confirmed that a significant minority of ADWD will take place after the end of AFFC, so it's plausable that questions posed by AFFC could be answered in ADWD. Whew.

-Dany. What is the Meereenese Knot? Will Dany begin her move to return to Westeros? Will she meet up with Arya? Or Tyrion? Or Prince Doran via Quentyn Martell? Or Archmaester Marwyn? Or Victarion Greyjoy?

-Who is Coldhands? What will Bran's continuing development as a warg bring? Has he been controlling the crazy-brave packs of wolves that have been harrying enemies of House Stark throughout AFFC?

-What is the Alchemist up to?

-Does the Young Wolf have an heir incubating? Is Jeyne actually Jeyne? Or has Sybell Spicer actually been working to subvert the Lannisters?

-Who are Jon Snow's parents (Yeah, it's an oldie, but it's a goodie)? My money's on the Rhaegar/Lyanna theory.

-Another oldie... Who is Azor Ahai / the Prince That Was Promised? Like most folks, I'm convinced that it's pretty clearly not Stannis despite Melisandre's certainty. But I'm not as convinced as some that it has to be Dany.

-WTF is really going on in Oldtown? I'm convinced that the Sphinx-is-Sarella theory is true, and that 'Pate' is Jaqen H'Gar. What are the maesters-not-named-Marwyn really up to? What's the deal with the obsidian candles? What (or who, given that he's likely a Faceless Man) is Jaqen after? What's Sarella's real motivation there?

Whew. Now some of you please make worthwhile the 90 minutes I spent writing up this post. :grund: Discuss!
Last edited by Zaxxon on Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:41 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Zaxxon
User avatar
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 14661
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Skinypupy » Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:53 pm

That post made me realize that I really need to re-read these before starting the new one.
GO UTES!! m|_ _|m
Skinypupy
User avatar
 
Posts: 6496
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:12 am
Location: Pac-12 Country

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Odin » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:04 pm

Skinypupy wrote:That post made me realize that I really need to re-read these before starting the new one.


Yeah, same here. I finished the fourth Dune book two nights ago (it sucked) and was looking through my stack of unread books for something new. I totally forgot that I'd been planning to do a complete ASoIaF re-read in preparation for the forthcoming novel. I don't think it'll quite take me six months like it took Zaxx, but I suppose it might take me a month for each of them. If so, I'd probably better start right now.
Odin
User avatar
 
Posts: 18912
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:29 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Jaymann » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:24 pm

Skinypupy wrote:That post made me realize that I really need to re-read these before starting the new one.


I am taking the exact opposite approach. I almost never re-read anything, since there are so many new things vying for my attention. Any new volumes ought to be able to stand on their own. Besides, I gave away the first four (to OO'ers) long ago.
Jaymann
]==(:::::::::::::>
Jaymann
User avatar
 
Posts: 3524
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:13 pm
Location: California

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby craterus » Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Zaxxon wrote: What's the deal with the obsidian candles?



http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concord ... tion/1.1./
Valyria produced items known as glass candles, at least as of a thousand years before the Doom. They are said to burn with a light that does not flicker and casts strange shadows only under the influence of magic, or perhaps during portentous times. They are made of obsidian, twisted in shape with razor-sharp edges, and can be green or black in color (II: 638. IV: 9)


All Valyrian magic was rooted in blood and fire. They could set dragonglass candles to burning with strange, unpleasantly-bright light. With the obsidian candles, they could see across vast distances, look into a man's mind, and speak with one another though they were half the world apart (IV: 682)


this link has helped me a number of times...
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/

Zaxxon wrote:
The fourth book is actually quite good. I think I (and frankly, many of you other fans) were taken aback on first read by the fact that many of our favorite characters from the first three books were not included in AFFC and we closed down.

nope... while missing characters where disappointing THAT wasn't the main reason i disliked it. reasons listed in various other threads...


ps- what i find funny is that we have yet another adwd thread and it isn't even done :)
"The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark," Jon pointed out. "I am no Stark, Father." A Game of Thrones
(referral link) Season 24 for GPRO racing manager game - starting the 10th of Feb
The OO GPRO thread - come on over and share some data
craterus
 
Posts: 2395
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby TiLT » Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:59 pm

Regarding the question of Jon's parentage, my second re-reading of the books left no doubt in my mind that he's the offspring of Rhaegar and Lyanna. This is also the reason Lyanna told Ned to "promise me!", by which she meant "promise me you won't tell anyone that Rhaegar is his father. Robert will kill Jon if he knows he is part Targaryen."

I also have a very strong gut feeling (related to what I wrote in the last paragraph) that Dany will die in either this book or the next, leaving Jon as the only person on the entire continent of Westeros able to command the dragons. I'm using "book logic" for this deduction, and as we all know Martin loves to toss that kind of thing out the window. The thing is, Dany really doesn't serve any real purpose in the overall story beyond bringing the dragons (and quite possibly an army) to Westeros. Both of those could easily be united under Jon's command once present (the dragons will obey him considering his Targaryen blood, and the army will obey him because of the dragons and the fact that a supernatural threat is becoming more and more obvious). In the end, the army will fulfill the ultimate irony of defending Robert's Westeros against an external threat.

It's my favorite theory, and one that I came up with all on my own too. It'll be interesting to see how far off the mark I am.
Insert witty comment here.
TiLT
User avatar
 
Posts: 2701
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:01 am
Location: Trondheim, Norway

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Zaxxon » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:25 pm

craterus wrote:
Zaxxon wrote: What's the deal with the obsidian candles?


*stuff Craterus wrote*

this link has helped me a number of times...
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Concordance/


That is a good link; I was aware of it though. I wasn't really looking for an answer that can be provided at this point--I meant what's the actual deal with the obsidian candles--are the maesters fully able to utilize them, is it really Dany's dragons that fired them back up, etc. And that we don't know for certain yet.

Craterus wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:
The fourth book is actually quite good. I think I (and frankly, many of you other fans) were taken aback on first read by the fact that many of our favorite characters from the first three books were not included in AFFC and we closed down.

nope... while missing characters where disappointing THAT wasn't the main reason i disliked it. reasons listed in various other threads...


You actually liked it quite a bit. :D

Craterus wrote:I rate AFOC to be in the ballpark of AGOT. My current reaction is that it is slightly lower than AGOT on my rating scale, around a 0.9*AGOT rating: compare that to - ACOK=10*AGOT and ASOS=100*ACOK. It is VERY good in the parts that are good and one of the threads IMHO is a clunker.


You dislike AGOT? Heathen. ;)

Craterus wrote:Except for my complete dissatisfaction with the Dorne thread (and with other minor issues in other threads and one major character reaction issue) - I was very happy with the stories presented.


Craterus wrote:Here is my impression of reading AFOC: blah blah blah - cool blah blah - blah blah blah - blah blah blah - ooh that was cool - blah blah blah - blah blah blah - blah blah blah - blah blah blah - blah cool blah - Cool sword fight - blah blah cool - blah blah blah - FNA Arya! - cool cool cool - Way to go sam! - blah blah blah - cool cool cool - WTF! STOP STOP STOP - cool cool cool - whoa! - WHOA! - HAHA LOO-SER! - WHOA!


Ah, you liked it.

Craterus wrote:That said - I was (and still am) MUCH more interested in what happened on the wall and with Dany. This book IMHO should have summarized the Dorne story to three paragraphs and I don't know - maybe add the dany story or the wall story which ever would have fit. Maybe he could have shortened the Kraken thread to about half to make more room, but those are just my humble opinions.


So yes, you wanted a different set of characters. :tjg:

By the way...

Craterus wrote:Nothing occurs in Dorne that would have been diminished if it had been summed up in a three paragraph flashback. (perhaps an over exaggeration on my part but that is my honest reaction right now - I HOPE on a re-read that my reaction will change similar to how they changed with the dany chapters in AGOT - but I didn't hate the dany chapters THIS much)


This is ridiculous. :) We got significant character development on Doran, Arianne, and Ser Arys. We got a ton of info about the Sand Snakes, Darkstar, and plenty of other things. It's fine that you didn't enjoy the Dorne section, but let's not pretend it was useless.
Zaxxon
User avatar
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 14661
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Boudreaux » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:33 pm

Zaxxon wrote:The fourth book is actually quite good. I think I (and frankly, many of you other fans) were taken aback on first read by the fact that many of our favorite characters from the first three books were not included in AFFC and we closed down.


Yeah, I just finished re-reading all of the books a few months ago, and I don't get the hate toward AFFC. I'm hoping all the pages devoted to Brienne actually lead into something besides her end, but the rest of the book was quite good, and kept things moving along. The continuing blunders of Cersei and growing distance between her and Jaime were great, and I'll be really curious to see how the Warrior's Sons and the sparrows play into the power struggles in King's Landing.

-Dany. What is the Meereenese Knot? Will Dany begin her move to return to Westeros? Will she meet up with Arya? Or Tyrion? Or Prince Doran via Quentyn Martell? Or Archmaester Marwyn? Or Victarion Greyjoy?


There was specific mention in AFFC of someone having been in contact with Daenerys and Viserys, was it the Martells? I forget.

-Who is Coldhands? What will Bran's continuing development as a warg bring? Has he been controlling the crazy-brave packs of wolves that have been harrying enemies of House Stark throughout AFFC?


My assumption was that the packs of wolves running all over the north were being led by Nymeria. Weren't there brief passages talking about Arya having "wolf dreams"?

The only other theory I am curious to see pan out is whether the evolving states of Beric Dondarrion (I think) and Catelyn Stark are in fact related to the conflict that Melisandre keeps bringing up between the Others and R'hllor. Beric and Catelyn were resurrected by R'hllor, but they seem to be on the path to becoming Others themselves. Some kind of cyclical relationship there?
Boudreaux
User avatar
 
Posts: 2562
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:18 am
Location: St. Louis

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Kelric » Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:41 pm

Boudreaux wrote:
-Who is Coldhands? What will Bran's continuing development as a warg bring? Has he been controlling the crazy-brave packs of wolves that have been harrying enemies of House Stark throughout AFFC?


My assumption was that the packs of wolves running all over the north were being led by Nymeria. Weren't there brief passages talking about Arya having "wolf dreams"?


I haven't read the books in a while, but I agree that Arya's wolf is the one running the packs.
Kelric
User avatar
 
Posts: 28637
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:20 pm
Location: Witch City

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby craterus » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:32 pm

Zaxxon wrote:You actually liked it quite a bit. :D

hmmm... i figured someone might do something like this (lets see - what are the chances some douchebag might do a search of my posts to find someway to contradict me? 95.9%?)...

you couldn't possibly be wrong - right?

my original reaction is that it was less enjoyable than AGOT. Not sure where you think i liked it quite a bit. There were two exceptionally good story threads imho back at that time. Maybe my opinion changed over time though... can you do a search for me?

You are referring to a thread where i was trying to summarize some stuff in a non-spoiler way for people who did not get the book yet (i think i got mine 6? weeks earlier than the US). Also, when i said i was satisfied with some of the stories in the book, it was the point that they were somewhat complete stories and not cut off in half stories as some people were concerned about at the time iirc.


Zaxxon wrote:
Craterus wrote:Here is my impression of reading AFOC: blah blah blah - cool blah blah - blah blah blah - blah blah blah - ooh that was cool - blah blah blah - blah blah blah - blah blah blah - blah blah blah - blah cool blah - Cool sword fight - blah blah cool - blah blah blah - FNA Arya! - cool cool cool - Way to go sam! - blah blah blah - cool cool cool - WTF! STOP STOP STOP - cool cool cool - whoa! - WHOA! - HAHA LOO-SER! - WHOA!


Ah, you liked it.

there are alot of blahs in there... do you like blah? Can you tell me if i like blah?

Zaxxon wrote:So yes, you wanted a different set of characters. :tjg:

Nope - you are still a douchebag... i was arguing at that time that the story in dorne along with a few other things were bad and that there was no good evidence for the excuse to split the book (i also said that i hoped my opinion would change about it at a later date). Can you do a search and tell me if my opinion changed at some point in the past 6 years?

You can have your opinion and i can have mine...

I have to ask myself why I need to respond to your post and then i ask myself why you try so hard... i don't have a good answer for that... maybe you can tell me what my opinion should be?
"The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark," Jon pointed out. "I am no Stark, Father." A Game of Thrones
(referral link) Season 24 for GPRO racing manager game - starting the 10th of Feb
The OO GPRO thread - come on over and share some data
craterus
 
Posts: 2395
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Kelric » Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:51 pm

How about you both let it go and we go back to talking about the books instead of our reactions to them?

As for Jon's parentage, Rhaegar and Lyanna make the most sense. I don't have much faith in the other options listed in Zaxxon's link.
Kelric
User avatar
 
Posts: 28637
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:20 pm
Location: Witch City

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby ezmate » Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:46 am

I'm also a fan of Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Furthermore, I believe Jon might be the "stone dragon". Bastards in the 7 kingdoms are given the name Snow, Flowers, Stone, Sand, etc. Now, GRRM mentions that Stone is for people of the Vale, but I believe it might be extended to anyone born in the mountains. Since Lyanna gave birth at the Tower of Joy (near the Red Mountains of Dorne), I think there's a chance that he is a "Stone" and not a "Snow" or "Sand" (as a Dornish bastard would be called).
Where I go, destruction will follow!
ezmate
User avatar
 
Posts: 821
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:36 pm
Location: Secret Lair

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Zaxxon » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:38 am

Crat, I don't have much of a response to your napalm escalation at your own words being posted in context other than to awkwardly note in my role as a mod that the personal attacks are CoC violations. I don't really care if you remove them, but there's a chance that they reflect poorly on you.

ezmate wrote:Furthermore, I believe Jon might be the "stone dragon". Bastards in the 7 kingdoms are given the name Snow, Flowers, Stone, Sand, etc. Now, GRRM mentions that Stone is for people of the Vale, but I believe it might be extended to anyone born in the mountains. Since Lyanna gave birth at the Tower of Joy (near the Red Mountains of Dorne), I think there's a chance that he is a "Stone" and not a "Snow" or "Sand" (as a Dornish bastard would be called).


Intriguing.

The wolf leader being Nymeria makes the most sense, I suppose. And Arya not being as consciously aware of what her dreams represent also would make sense.
Zaxxon
User avatar
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 14661
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Odin » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:48 am

Zaxxon wrote:there's a chance that they reflect poorly on you.


Oh, more than a chance.

Zaxxon wrote:The wolf leader being Nymeria makes the most sense, I suppose. And Arya not being as consciously aware of what her dreams represent also would make sense.


This was my initial interpretation and, in fact, it always seemed so clear to me that it never occurred to me until this thread that anyone might have taken it any other way. Of course, that's also why I tend to miss deeper meanings sometimes, I suppose.
Odin
User avatar
 
Posts: 18912
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:29 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Odin » Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:09 am

Hmm, I read somewhere something about how "Dany serves no purpose except to bring the dragons and an army over to Westeros." I thought it was in this thread, but now I can't find it. Anyway, I couldn't disagree more - I think she's as significant a character in her own right as any of the Starks or Lannisters (certainly as much as the surviving ones).

She's the rightful Queen of Westeros, first and foremost. She's the only one with a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne (the only major character, anyway. Given all the convoluted histories there could be somebody else running around with a legit claim, but certainly not anybody since Robert usurped the throne). She's already hooked up with a member of the kingsguard (in exile), who's no slouch in terms of warrior skill and "inside" knowledge of Westeros (ie. all the things he's seen over the years in the kingsguard that most wouldn't be privy to). She's got the potential to hook up with Arya or Tyrion before leaving the continent she's on, either of which could have a huge impact on who she can hook up with once she's in Westeros. I dunno - I've just always seen her as a major, major character, and dismissing her so easily feels wrong to me.

I've always sort of suspected she might end up married to Jon (particularly if she somehow gets Arya on her side), but I have no idea what made me think that (maybe I'll remember when I re-read the books) and it seems a bit too straightforward for Martin so I'm not exactly counting on it.
Odin
User avatar
 
Posts: 18912
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:29 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby TiLT » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:32 am

Odin wrote:Hmm, I read somewhere something about how "Dany serves no purpose except to bring the dragons and an army over to Westeros." I thought it was in this thread, but now I can't find it. Anyway, I couldn't disagree more - I think she's as significant a character in her own right as any of the Starks or Lannisters (certainly as much as the surviving ones).

She's the rightful Queen of Westeros, first and foremost. She's the only one with a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne (the only major character, anyway. Given all the convoluted histories there could be somebody else running around with a legit claim, but certainly not anybody since Robert usurped the throne). She's already hooked up with a member of the kingsguard (in exile), who's no slouch in terms of warrior skill and "inside" knowledge of Westeros (ie. all the things he's seen over the years in the kingsguard that most wouldn't be privy to). She's got the potential to hook up with Arya or Tyrion before leaving the continent she's on, either of which could have a huge impact on who she can hook up with once she's in Westeros. I dunno - I've just always seen her as a major, major character, and dismissing her so easily feels wrong to me.

I've always sort of suspected she might end up married to Jon (particularly if she somehow gets Arya on her side), but I have no idea what made me think that (maybe I'll remember when I re-read the books) and it seems a bit too straightforward for Martin so I'm not exactly counting on it.


It was I who said that earlier in the thread. I was fully aware of the arguments you're making here before I stated my theory. What I consider weaknesses in your arguments are:

- I can't see Dany taking the throne in these books. It would just be a return to the Targaryen rule which hasn't really worked all that well. Marrying Jon would even further cement that as she would be going back to the inbreeding that led to their downfall.
- Her allies aren't all that important at this point. She wouldn't have the support of the important people in Westeros. Even Tyrion, who you mention, would never ally with her as he is always loyal to his family (yes, even despite what Tywin and Jaime did to him. His first reaction upon telling Jaime the big lie about killing Joffrey was regret, after all). The people are also going to rally behind the Tyrells at this point, making any existing loyalty to the Targaryens far less important.
- Having Dany try to take the throne would just be pointless at this part of the series. I believe the fight for the throne was the focus of the first half of the trilogy and has now been laid to rest with the Tyrells in power. The focus on the second half of the trilogy will be on the Ice and Fire part of the story. If Dany goes for the throne, she would just take the focus away from that.

For the story to move towards what I see as the logical path to the conclusion, Dany must not claim the throne. If we assume she lives, she must somehow change her mind about the importance of the throne and instead decide to defend Westeros from the Others. At that point she's just in Jon's way from a story perspective, and her importance will be severely diminished. That's why I think she will have to die.
Insert witty comment here.
TiLT
User avatar
 
Posts: 2701
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:01 am
Location: Trondheim, Norway

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Odin » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:03 am

/shrug. Just not seeing it play out that way. I guess time will tell.
Odin
User avatar
 
Posts: 18912
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:29 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Kelric » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:04 am

TiLT wrote:For the story to move towards what I see as the logical path to the conclusion, Dany must not claim the throne. If we assume she lives, she must somehow change her mind about the importance of the throne and instead decide to defend Westeros from the Others. At that point she's just in Jon's way from a story perspective, and her importance will be severely diminished. That's why I think she will have to die.


Do we know if all of the Targaryens can control the dragons, or just some members of the family? And when full grown, will Dany be able to control all three of them? The Targaryen stories I remember from the books had one sibling controlling one dragon each. The dragons seem like they will be key fighting the Others, so Dany and Jon may need to be helping each other there.
Kelric
User avatar
 
Posts: 28637
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:20 pm
Location: Witch City

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby TiLT » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:14 am

Kelric wrote:
TiLT wrote:For the story to move towards what I see as the logical path to the conclusion, Dany must not claim the throne. If we assume she lives, she must somehow change her mind about the importance of the throne and instead decide to defend Westeros from the Others. At that point she's just in Jon's way from a story perspective, and her importance will be severely diminished. That's why I think she will have to die.


Do we know if all of the Targaryens can control the dragons, or just some members of the family? And when full grown, will Dany be able to control all three of them? The Targaryen stories I remember from the books had one sibling controlling one dragon each. The dragons seem like they will be key fighting the Others, so Dany and Jon may need to be helping each other there.


It's not ever stated explicitly, but the Targaryens exhibit some features of dragons such as their looks and a high resistance to heat (just look at Dany surviving her bonfire in AGoT). Their ability to control dragons probably comes from that kinship to them. If Jon has the same blood, it figures that he'll be able to do the same things as Daenerys, though perhaps not as well.
Insert witty comment here.
TiLT
User avatar
 
Posts: 2701
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:01 am
Location: Trondheim, Norway

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Cortilian » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:42 am

Skinypupy wrote:That post made me realize that I really need to re-read these before starting the new one.


Ditto. Man I just gotta find the time. Maybe audio book from the library.
Cortilian
 
Posts: 876
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:30 am

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Zaxxon » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:08 pm

Boudreaux wrote:
-Dany. What is the Meereenese Knot? Will Dany begin her move to return to Westeros? Will she meet up with Arya? Or Tyrion? Or Prince Doran via Quentyn Martell? Or Archmaester Marwyn? Or Victarion Greyjoy?


There was specific mention in AFFC of someone having been in contact with Daenerys and Viserys, was it the Martells? I forget.


The Martells. Doran mentioned that he had arranged for Arianne to marry Viserys. He didn't say when that arrangement was made or with whom specifically.

Boudreaux wrote:
-Who is Coldhands? What will Bran's continuing development as a warg bring? Has he been controlling the crazy-brave packs of wolves that have been harrying enemies of House Stark throughout AFFC?


My assumption was that the packs of wolves running all over the north were being led by Nymeria. Weren't there brief passages talking about Arya having "wolf dreams"?


I should expand on why I asked if Bran was controlling, since the Nymeria-Arya explanation seems so much more obvious to everyone else. If I'm remembering correctly, we've had multiple mentions of Arya having wolf dreams, but nothing even close to the scale of what Bran has experienced. Never have we been lead to believe that Arya or Jon can exert any actual control over their wolves. We've also not had any direct indication that Ghost or Nymeria would take over large packs of normal wolves on their own and lead coordinated attacks on the correct sets of humans. Hence my wondering if Bran was involved somehow. I still wouldn't be surprised to learn that Bran's behind it--we've already seen that the direwolves have some sort of communication amongst themselves, so it's not out of the question that Bran influenced Nymeria either directly or through Summer.

The simplest explanation is certainly that Nymeria took it upon herself to kick some Lannister & Company ass. But I don't think it's entirely clear that that's the case.

Boudreaux wrote:The only other theory I am curious to see pan out is whether the evolving states of Beric Dondarrion (I think) and Catelyn Stark are in fact related to the conflict that Melisandre keeps bringing up between the Others and R'hllor. Beric and Catelyn were resurrected by R'hllor, but they seem to be on the path to becoming Others themselves. Some kind of cyclical relationship there?


Interesting. I'm not sure that they're on the path to becoming Others (their physical appearance and lack of 'coldness' seem to directly contradict being an Other, actually). But it's an interesting parallel.

Kelric wrote:
TiLT wrote:For the story to move towards what I see as the logical path to the conclusion, Dany must not claim the throne. If we assume she lives, she must somehow change her mind about the importance of the throne and instead decide to defend Westeros from the Others. At that point she's just in Jon's way from a story perspective, and her importance will be severely diminished. That's why I think she will have to die.


Do we know if all of the Targaryens can control the dragons, or just some members of the family? And when full grown, will Dany be able to control all three of them? The Targaryen stories I remember from the books had one sibling controlling one dragon each. The dragons seem like they will be key fighting the Others, so Dany and Jon may need to be helping each other there.


TiLT wrote:It's not ever stated explicitly, but the Targaryens exhibit some features of dragons such as their looks and a high resistance to heat (just look at Dany surviving her bonfire in AGoT). Their ability to control dragons probably comes from that kinship to them. If Jon has the same blood, it figures that he'll be able to do the same things as Daenerys, though perhaps not as well.


I'm also not in the 'Dany won't try for the throne' camp. She's definitely not 'just in Jon's way' from a story perspective--if she's actually Azor Ahai the opposite could be true, and I think either case could be argued with the same amount of evidence at this point. As for Targaryen control of dragons, I think the implication is that they all have some level of affinity for dragons. Actually the high resistance to heat is stated explicitly. Although the fact that the 'three-headed dragon' paradigm of the Targaryens seems to be more than just a sigil makes me wonder whether Dany will actually be able to control all three dragons when they're of fightin' size or not. I'm thinking she'll need some help.

Cortilian wrote:
Skinypupy wrote:That post made me realize that I really need to re-read these before starting the new one.


Ditto. Man I just gotta find the time. Maybe audio book from the library.


One of the reasons I started this thread so early is that I figured we had more than a few folks around here that would want to schedule a re-read prior to ADWD's release. I hope you all find the time! I'm already enjoying this discussion and would love it if you guys can participate, as well. Feel free to toss in your reactions to events during the re-read.
Zaxxon
User avatar
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 14661
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Mr. Fed » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:33 pm

The only problem I have with Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is that it seems a little too obvious -- like a giant head fake.
Popehat, a blog.
Mr. Fed
User avatar
 
Posts: 15006
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:05 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Odin » Sun Mar 27, 2011 1:37 pm

Mr. Fed wrote:The only problem I have with Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is that it seems a little too obvious -- like a giant head fake.


It might be a question of who Martin's trying to fool. The average Joe who reads the book and says, "that was pretty good" or all of us geeks who pull it apart and examine every word and every nuance? If it's the latter, then the former will likely miss it completely. If the former, then something that seems too obvious to us may be right on target for his intended audience.
Odin
User avatar
 
Posts: 18912
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:29 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby craterus » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:31 pm

Zaxxon wrote:Crat, I don't have much of a response to your napalm escalation at your own words being posted in context other than to awkwardly note in my role as a mod that the personal attacks are CoC violations. I don't really care if you remove them, but there's a chance that they reflect poorly on you.


i would say that you used them out of context (or at least purposely misinterpreted the posts) for the affect of saying aha! gotcha!

if you want to remove my posts feel free - but you should remove your misinterpretations as well

also my lower opinion of AFFC shouldn't affect you... and i have no problem with your opinion that it is a great book... my problem is that your main point seemed to be that other peoples opinions of the book must be wrong because of your belief that they lowered their rating mostly due to the book being split. You then chose to quote my posts and misinterpret them to match your belief.
"The direwolf graces the banners of House Stark," Jon pointed out. "I am no Stark, Father." A Game of Thrones
(referral link) Season 24 for GPRO racing manager game - starting the 10th of Feb
The OO GPRO thread - come on over and share some data
craterus
 
Posts: 2395
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby wonderpug » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:45 pm

These craterus and Zaxxon POV chapters seem repetitive. Must be that damn writer's block.
wonderpug
User avatar
 
Posts: 5700
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:38 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Zaxxon » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:57 pm

wonderpug wrote:These craterus and Zaxxon POV chapters seem repetitive. Must be that damn writer's block.


:ninja:
Zaxxon
User avatar
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 14661
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby pr0ner » Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:44 pm

craterus wrote:
Zaxxon wrote:Crat, I don't have much of a response to your napalm escalation at your own words being posted in context other than to awkwardly note in my role as a mod that the personal attacks are CoC violations. I don't really care if you remove them, but there's a chance that they reflect poorly on you.


i would say that you used them out of context (or at least purposely misinterpreted the posts) for the affect of saying aha! gotcha!

if you want to remove my posts feel free - but you should remove your misinterpretations as well

also my lower opinion of AFFC shouldn't affect you... and i have no problem with your opinion that it is a great book... my problem is that your main point seemed to be that other peoples opinions of the book must be wrong because of your belief that they lowered their rating mostly due to the book being split. You then chose to quote my posts and misinterpret them to match your belief.


There's a difference between a possible misinterpretation and calling someone a douchebag.
That's a clown question, bro.
pr0ner
User avatar
 
Posts: 9026
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:00 pm
Location: Alexandria, VA

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Kelric » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:05 pm

And so let us all move on. How about that Sandor?
Kelric
User avatar
 
Posts: 28637
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:20 pm
Location: Witch City

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Odin » Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:06 pm

wonderpug wrote:These craterus and Zaxxon POV chapters seem repetitive. Must be that damn writer's block.


How's that saying go? Every time Zaxx and crat have an argument, Martin kills a Stark?
Odin
User avatar
 
Posts: 18912
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:29 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby ezmate » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:27 pm

Kelric wrote:And so let us all move on. How about that Sandor?


It's been a while since I've read the books, but from what I remember, I'd guess Sandor is alive. Wasn't there some grave-keeper (or something) that was a huge man with a limp?
Where I go, destruction will follow!
ezmate
User avatar
 
Posts: 821
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:36 pm
Location: Secret Lair

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Kelric » Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:35 pm

ezmate wrote:
Kelric wrote:And so let us all move on. How about that Sandor?


It's been a while since I've read the books, but from what I remember, I'd guess Sandor is alive. Wasn't there some grave-keeper (or something) that was a huge man with a limp?


Yeah. He seems to have become a monk.
Kelric
User avatar
 
Posts: 28637
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 5:20 pm
Location: Witch City

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby wire » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:51 am

This thread reminded me of a project a few of us started way back in the GG days where we were each reading a chapter of A Game of Thrones and writing about it. We broke the chapters down by character first appearances and significant plot points. I can't even remember who else was involved or why it didn't continue.
wire
User avatar
 
Posts: 1872
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 2:29 am
Location: Monterey, CA

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby theohall » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:46 am

Odin wrote:
wonderpug wrote:These craterus and Zaxxon POV chapters seem repetitive. Must be that damn writer's block.


How's that saying go? Every time Zaxx and crat have an argument, Martin kills a Stark?


How about every time these arguments end, Martin resurrects someone.
theohall
User avatar
 
Posts: 11160
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:01 am
Location: Jacksonville, FL

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Odin » Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:07 am

Kelric wrote:
ezmate wrote:
Kelric wrote:And so let us all move on. How about that Sandor?


It's been a while since I've read the books, but from what I remember, I'd guess Sandor is alive. Wasn't there some grave-keeper (or something) that was a huge man with a limp?


Yeah. He seems to have become a monk.


I'm actually more interested at the moment in what's become of his brother Gregor. Has "The Mountain that Rides" actually been turned into a Frankenstein-style golem?
Odin
User avatar
 
Posts: 18912
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:29 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Zaxxon » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:56 am

Odin wrote:I'm actually more interested at the moment in what's become of his brother Gregor. Has "The Mountain that Rides" actually been turned into a Frankenstein-style golem?


Survey says 100% chance of yes in one form or another.
Zaxxon
User avatar
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 14661
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Odin » Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:58 am

Zaxxon wrote:
Odin wrote:I'm actually more interested at the moment in what's become of his brother Gregor. Has "The Mountain that Rides" actually been turned into a Frankenstein-style golem?


Survey says 100% chance of yes in one form or another.


Well, yeah, I suppose my post implied that there might be some doubt. There isn't, really. Mostly I just want to actually SEE this monstrosity!

I'm also really anxious to see the chaos in House Lannister with the father dead, the Kingslayer turning his back on his sister, the Imp fled, and Cersei left all to herself.
Odin
User avatar
 
Posts: 18912
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:29 pm
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Zaxxon » Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:23 am

Here's a theory from Tower of the Hand regarding the fate of both brothers Clegane. For Gregor he's essentially just compiling the evidence that we all already agree points to an undead Mountain. I like the Sandor theory but agree with the author that it's unlikely to be confirmed or denied.
Zaxxon
User avatar
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 14661
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Zaxxon » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:56 am

A new Tower of the Hand essay is up today, discussing Littlefinger's possible motivations. Good stuff.
Zaxxon
User avatar
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 14661
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:11 am
Location: Surrounded by Mountains

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby Teggy » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:32 pm

Well I started my re-read last night (prologue + first chapter of AGoT). Hopefully I'll be able to keep at it into July, although I read A Feast for Crows fairly recently, so I could stop at 3 if necessary.

Actually, this is my first time reading the first 3 books as I listened to the audio books the first time. I'm sure I'll get a lot more out of it this time.
Teggy
User avatar
 
Posts: 3005
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:52 pm
Location: On the 495 loop

Re: A Dance With Dragons [It's Coming: Discussion-Wishes-Rav

Postby wonderpug » Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:50 pm

I'm in the beginnings of a series reread as well. I'm about, er, 4,400 locations into Game of Thrones. I really can't wait to see some of these scenes play out on the HBO series. I want to see Tyrion poke at someone's chest with a cocktail fork.

It's really fun seeing all the foreshadowing that went completely over my head on my first read.
wonderpug
User avatar
 
Posts: 5700
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:38 pm
Location: Cambridge, MA

Next

Return to Everything But Gaming

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Kraken, Pyperkub and 6 guests