Hourly vs. Salary

[Arcanis]

Your version of on call sounds more like sitting there staring at the phone in case it rings. I have never had to do that nor has anyone else I know of that has ever been on call. If they expect immediate response times they people would have to follow what you are saying, if the expect reasonable response times then it can be far more relaxed.

Define reasonable response time? Is it measured in (multiple) hours? Because mine isn't, and if the company can afford a response time of (multiple) hours, then they probably don't need on-call service at all.

Reasonable varies depending on the situation. If they are working on a big deal and have people from out of the country in the office, then it needs to be back up in a few minutes if possible. If it is some guy working on the weekend and can't print or someone locked their account by typing their password wrong (but the work isn't critical), then it can wait a couple of hours for me to finish what I was doing and get to a computer.

[noxiousdog]

Give me a break. Several people have told you you're wrong including the OP, but I don't see you batting an eye.

And obviously, given Lawbeef's definition of on-call, that phrase means different things to different people, and different organizations.

Given PG's IT role at his company, I'm very confident my definition of on-call in this case is closer than an executive's idea of on-call.

Of course I'm not batting an eye. Because I'm plenty ok with a broad definition of on-call. PG needs to clarify exactly what is meant, and exactly what the requirements are.

[Paingod]

They do have "the backup" of the Vendor company. Despite the vendor stepping in and fixing this (again, per the previous agreement) they still push that I should be on a pager. It's supposed to be that if I'm out or unavailable, the vendor company gets the call. Everything went according to a pre-arranged deal, and it's a problem for them.

So, I can go for a bike ride, go to a movie, or go hiking up a mountain - but if they had to call the vendor, I'm going to get chewed out (more for not returning the call than not handling the issue). There might not be a problem if I returned the call and the problem was already handled. At least they'd feel like I was there somewhere.

Maybe I need to clarify?

The have said that they want a callback within 4 hours. Obviously if my phone is dead or getting no signal, I can't return the call. What happens is that I get the VM a day after the problem (Sunday when it went down Saturday) or the morning I'm heading into work. Doesn't do anybody any good and I get dragged into the office so they can chew me out for not responding.

[Arcanis]

They do have "the backup" of the Vendor company. Despite the vendor stepping in and fixing this (again, per the previous agreement) they still push that I should be on a pager. It's supposed to be that if I'm out or unavailable, the vendor company gets the call. Everything went according to a pre-arranged deal, and it's a problem for them.

So, I can go for a bike ride, go to a movie, or go hiking up a mountain - but if they had to call the vendor, I'm going to get chewed out (more for not returning the call than not handling the issue). There might not be a problem if I returned the call and the problem was already handled. At least they'd feel like I was there somewhere.

Maybe I need to clarify?

The have said that they want a callback within 4 hours. Obviously if my phone is dead or getting no signal, I can't return the call. What happens is that I get the VM a day after the problem (Sunday when it went down Saturday) or the morning I'm heading into work. Doesn't do anybody any good and I get dragged into the office so they can chew me out for not responding.

I don't think it is unreasonable for them to expect acknowledgement of their issue in 4 hours, or morning if it happened during the night. The dead phone is on you, but the lack of signal is something you don't have control over. If the pager would get signal or if they would pay for a phone I don't see it as all that unreasonable, at least as long as they understand when you are going out of town or something like that it would take longer if not be impossible.

[SpaceLord]

I'm On-Call right now.

Are you receiving compensation for it?

It's part of my job description.

WHOA.

This very afternoon, I had a 45-minute meeting with the CEO. Our Infrastructure team basically consists of a Director, and 3 Systems Engineers. There's also a desktop grunt. There's another central person, the former Director of Systems, who left a few weeks ago, leaving a gaping hole in institutional knowledge. Then, within two days, both my manager(Director) and the Senior Systems Engineer put in their notice to leave. I'm underpaid for what I do, and the primary reason I stayed at my current company is out of loyalty to the best boss I've ever had. So I used this opportunity to ask for a significant raise, which I bet I'll get.

One of the reasons I gave for deserving a raise is that I'll now be on-call half the time, since we lost 1/3 of our on-call staff this week.

[gameoverman]

A lot of people seem to be familiar with 'good' on call situations, where you never have to interrupt what you're doing and can even go in to work drunk if need be. That's cool.

I, however, would plan for 'bad' on call, since that's my luck. I'd have friends over to watch the game and one quarter in and a few beers later I'd get called, then have to hear "Why are you drinking when you know you're on call?".

[LawBeefaroni]

A lot of people seem to be familiar with 'good' on call situations, where you never have to interrupt what you're doing and can even go in to work drunk if need be. That's cool.

Sometimes the choice is between "risk millions not being ready for market open on Monday" or "put up with somewhat drunken IT guy on Saturday at 11pm."

As always, varies by job, industry, position, nature of problem...

[gameoverman]

Yeah, and to clarify, I don't think compensated for on call has to mean a separate compensation from hourly wage. If someone accepts a position that includes on call, and understands that the $X per hour is inclusive of everything, then they ARE being compensated for being on call. It's just included in the hourly wage.

[paulbaxter]

I have no experience with IT, but as Isgrimnur pointed out on the first page, your company is required by federal law to pay you for all hours worked and time and a half for all hours worked above 40. This is potential leverage YOU have in negotiations, though it may or may not be wise to bring it up. While you might be replaceable, it would still be expensive for your company to face a lawsuit. I would just expect them to pay you for hours worked (with the overtime as necessary) and to pay for whatever equipment they require you to use.

Probably the worst result for you would be that they switch you to salary and you would then have to do all the extra work without compensation.

[coopasonic]

I have no experience with IT, but as Isgrimnur pointed out on the first page, your company is required by federal law to pay you for all hours worked and time and a half for all hours worked above 40. This is potential leverage YOU have in negotiations, though it may or may not be wise to bring it up. While you might be replaceable, it would still be expensive for your company to face a lawsuit. I would just expect them to pay you for hours worked (with the overtime as necessary) and to pay for whatever equipment they require you to use.

Probably the worst result for you would be that they switch you to salary and you would then have to do all the extra work without compensation.

He's being paid for all the hours he's working, he's just not cool with being available all the time. Not that I am blaming him. If that's what they were paying me, I wouldn't be either.

[Grundbegriff]

• If you're good at your job, then it is possible that you're being underpaid. Check glassdoor.com, salary.com, etc.
• If you're being underpaid, and negotiating a raise to your market value isn't feasible where you are, you should consider finding a new job.
• "an informal agreement ...that I will reasonably respond to any after-hours calls" is unacceptable as soon as either party starts to bend or reinterpret the terms.
• If you are on call, your employer should provide your phone and cover your base plan for one person.
• If you are on call, you should bill and be paid for all time that you work outside normal hours. You do no work for which you are not compensated.
• If you are on call, then you behave as if you are on call.

It's totally normal for someone who maintains a network or a production database to be on call. The cost of that inconvenience is either folded into the salary or offset by additional billing. It's totally abnormal, as well as unhealthy on multiple fronts, for this arrangement to be so ill defined that either party can decide that A is really Z.

[gbasden]

I've put in about 20 years in IT for a lot of different employers, and I think out of that period there was about 9 months where I wasn't at least partially on call for something. Right now I'm on call 24/7 unless I'm on vacation, but that isn't abused. If you want to stay in IT, get used to being on call at least part time.

That being said, your employers sound like absolute dicks. I would definitely keep looking for other employment. Working in a sweatshop tears you down, fast.

[SpaceLord]

I agree, there's no way I'd be on call without the company paying for my cell phone. That's 100 bucks a month for me, since I'm often needed in Canada.

[TheMix]

I think that discussions of what is "expected" or "normal" in IT seem a bit irrelevant in this situation. What is relevant is what PG's company seems to think is appropriate.

To me that is:

- he should be available to respond within 4 hours to every call (which reads 24x7x365 to me)

- he needs to be available on his personal phone

Furthermore, it seems that they feel any failure to respond within that time frame is a black mark on his record.

I know that earlier I went to one extreme regarding on-call. And others have more or less backed me up (appreciated). Clearly this situation is not that bad. Obviously 4 hours does allow PG to do some fun stuff. But my point is still valid, I hope. The knowledge that he has to be available is always there. Before he leaves the house, he needs to think about it... how long will he be gone? does he need to bring his phone? a computer? will there be access to wifi if necessary? Did he step away? Time to check the phone.

That's not a fun way to live. Especially when you have the knowledge that if you miss a call you can expect a reprimand.

And on top of that, they don't see anything wrong with that? That's crazy.

Being "available", as noted earlier, is entirely different. Even when I'm not on-call, I suppose I'm available. I'm fine with that. I have no problem with someone from my team calling me for guidance. However, I also know that no one is going to yell at me or complain about my performance if I don't answer the call.

PG,
To echo what's been said before, I think it's time to find another job. This seems like a no-win situation. At least as long as they can ever call you. As the only person available, there is no way to have a "healthy" on-call situation. You will never be able to free yourself from leash... I doubt that additional compensation will make up for always being available. And it doesn't seem like there is any version of on-call where they will accept the occasional 'lapse'.

[gbasden]

Agreed. Being on call constantly is extremely draining. It sounds as if his problem is solved at this point, though. Hopefully it will not affect his employment before he's able to find a better place to be.

[Elbino]

I started my working life as a programmer with a lot of "IT" stuff. Then it started bleeding into carrying a pager for 24/7 telephone company stuff. Being on call 24/7 all the time kills you...you never know when it's going to hit. After I explained this to the company CEO (small place), he immediately made carrying the on call pager a 4 player game, 1 week on, three off. Also, we got 5 hours OT pay for the week we were on plus 1 hour min on an issue solved over the phone/net and 4 hours for going into the office after hours. I was salaried back then too, so it was just a made up hourly rate that we agreed on. The extra money was great, but almost everyone in the company who ended up on pager duty got off pager duty as soon as they found someone else to do it.
IMO, if you're carrying a 24/7 pager without extra compensation, you're being dragged through the dirt. Suggest one of the senior managers carry it for 2 weeks and I bet some changes will happen. Also, a company wanting someone available all the time to fix things should share cost on a mobile phone if quick response is expected.
Maybe I'm just sour about my pager work, but a company expecting one person to hold everything together after hours with no compensation for it is practicing the worst sort of selfishness.

[Crux]

Here's what I would do in your situation. I'd take the pager for free on one condition: I had right of refusal. If they paged me and I wanted the hours, I would come in and do the work. If it was too much of an inconvenience or not possible, then I could punt it to the backup, more expensive for them option.

If they want more than that, then they pay for it. Of course I don't work in IT - just seems to make sense to me. This way your company will save money overall, and also you're not married to *having* to go in to work no matter what.

[Smoove_B]

But here's the thing. In some back office cubicle, someone is going to be reviewing the financials. And at some point they're going to say, "Why are we paying [Vendor X] $$$ a year for after-hours tech support when we have Paingod here on staff as an hourly worker? And when they realize they're outsourcing a function that as near as I can tell should be done in-house, it's not going to look good for our local hero. And that's when the "Well why do we keep this guy around anyway?" conversations start happening.

They clearly want you to do this so take the initiative and hammer out a deal that everyone can agree to. The worst case here is that you present your offer and they reject it (paid minimum, paid dedicated phone, travel expense, reasonable response time, etc...). At that point at least no one can fault you for trying to work with them. What would be really bad is if they finally draw a line in the sand and they create a plan that you had absolutely no input on.

[GreenGoo]

And when they realize they're outsourcing a function that as near as I can tell should be done in-house, it's not going to look good for our local hero. And that's when the "Well why do we keep this guy around anyway?" conversations start happening.

So you're saying they are going to forget/ignore the other 40+ hours of work he does around there every week, and get rid of him because once in awhile they have to pay a contractor because they are unwilling to compensation PG for additional job requirements they want him to have?

That seems....short sighted. Hopefully there's someone besides an accountant making these decisions, otherwise, yeah, when the requirements of the job take a back seat to the the accounting...the company doesn't have long for this world anyway. Maybe it is time to bail as long as you have something else lined up first.

Or he could suggest they put him at that data entry job he actually took. That probably doesn't have any on-call requirements. When they start talking about a lousy work ethic because he won't give them more of himself for free, that's a HUGE warning sign in my mind, that it's time to bail.

Clearly this is a situation where all the variables need to be taken into account before a way forward is decided on, and only PG can do that. Good luck to him.

[Smoove_B]

It might be short sighted, but it's those types of events that start that type of conversation. I would think that the last thing you'd want right now is to appear as though you're not a team player. It's a crap sandwich, but with the way things are right now, you're not dining alone.

[hitbyambulance]

Here's what I would do in your situation. I'd take the pager for free on one condition: I had right of refusal. If they paged me and I wanted the hours, I would come in and do the work. If it was too much of an inconvenience or not possible, then I could punt it to the backup, more expensive for them option.

If they want more than that, then they pay for it.

this sounds reasonable to me.

[Paingod]

The knowledge that he has to be available is always there. Before he leaves the house, he needs to think about it... how long will he be gone? does he need to bring his phone? a computer? will there be access to wifi if necessary? Did he step away? Time to check the phone.

That's not a fun way to live.

That's exactly what I tried to explain to my management. They both looked at me like I was asking them to pay me to rub my nipples with butter. The President lives/loves/eats/breathes his job - he has to; it's his company and he's getting six figures to do it. The 2nd in command lives/eats/breathes her job (but doesn't love it) - I imagine she's also getting hefty compensation; she's salaried and runs half the company. Of course they're both on-call 24x7, they both log in on weekends to check numbers, carry blackberries to stay connected to the company, etc. They both expect everyone there to do the same. Most people think it's a huge joke because they're just in production and overtime can't be made mandatory for them.

One serious problem is that they are a horrific couple of people. He's essentially bipolar - one day he gives me a huge bonus for being a great guy aand another day he might refuse to let me buy more than one spare mouse. People always joke about whether or not he's on his meds during any given day. She is a sycophantic lacky that wants everyone to like her, and can't stand it when she's not involved in something. She'll agree with you one second and throw you under the bus to please the Pres the next. I mostly ignore both of them to the best of my ability; one of my talents is patience and applying it towards getting along with anyone I have to.

I am in a stable position. They didn't threaten to write me up or get rid of me. Their solution was to call the vendor first instead of me. Honestly, they let this issue fester for a day before they called the vendor. There's nothing wrong with the current protocol except that they don't seem to want to adhere to it.

The job search has been on and off for a year now. I suppose it's time to step it up a bit.

[Arcanis]

PG I think that is likely the best course of action for you. If you really liked your job I'd say stay and try to work it out, but from the sounds of it you barely tolerate your job because the people in charge don't understand it is a job not your (or every other employee's) life. It just sounds like a bad environment overall and that company will likely go belly up soon just for the fact that the 2 people in charge will run off any worthwhile employees.

Best of luck looking for work.

[Isgrimnur]

Warm up the lawyers: overtime overhaul

federal law does protect salaried workers from being taken advantage of by their employers: protections exist that require employers to pay their salaried workers time-and-a-half when they work over 40 hours. The problem is, those protections only cover Americans making $23,660 a year, or less.

In an op-ed Monday night in the Huffington Post, President Barack Obama called for an overhaul of overtime regulations so that millions more Americans can be eligible to receive time-and-a-half pay for overtime hours. He proposed bumping the ceiling to $50,440 — equal to the 1975 cap in terms of purchasing power. That means, if the rule passes, salaried workers making below the new threshold would automatically be paid overtime wages when they work more than 40 hours each week.
...
The proposed rule is designed to combat income inequality, in part stemming from wage stagnation even as Americans work longer, more productive hours. With the threshold as low as it is, even some Americans who are below the poverty line are not guaranteed overtime pay for extra hours worked, according to the Economic Policy Institute. By raising the cap, lower-paid, white-collar workers — such as customer service representatives, social workers, and retail sales workers — would be able to earn money in exchange for overtime hours.

The rule is likely to be completed in 2016, although it could still be challenged in court, or in Congress.

[Smoove_B]

Buried in Gawker comments, and probably would have been helpful when this thread was started 4 years ago -- IT Overtime Law:

Your job title does not determine whether you are entitled to overtime pay. In many cases, IT support workers are eligible for overtime pay even though they are salaried and highly paid (including high base salaries plus bonuses).

IT employees who perform their company's valuable installation and technical support functions – installing, maintaining, supporting, and repairing computer software and hardware, for the company itself or for customers of the company - have recovered overtime pay.

[Isgrimnur]

I'm still screwed:

Negative Factors (unlikely to get OT)

General Concepts

• Address new problems each day
• Exercise creativity and discretion in crafting solutions
• Select and design computer systems
• Operate independently
• Perform such work a majority of time or as primary duty

Specific Tasks

• Design programs, applications, operating systems, networks
• Write substantial programs & applications
• Have independent authority to make significant changes to systems and environment
• Participate in far-reaching research projects, making important decisions

[JSHAW]

Can we get a 2015 update from Paingod on how things are going with the IT sweatshop bosses, and
if his situation has gotten better or worse?

[GreenGoo]

Can we get a 2015 update from Paingod on how things are going with the IT sweatshop bosses, and
if his situation has gotten better or worse?

If I recall correctly, he's moved on. I was following his trials and tribulations at the new job, but have since lost track.

[LordMortis]

Can we get a 2015 update from Paingod on how things are going with the IT sweatshop bosses, and
if his situation has gotten better or worse?

If I recall correctly, he's moved on. I was following his trials and tribulations at the new job, but have since lost track.

The most recent memory of mine (which is not to be trusted) is that the maker of huge expensive widgets does not have any more huge expensive widgets scheduled and that this is creating a lot financial tension in the new company.

[LordMortis]

Buried in Gawker comments, and probably would have been helpful when this thread was started 4 years ago -- IT Overtime Law:

Your job title does not determine whether you are entitled to overtime pay. In many cases, IT support workers are eligible for overtime pay even though they are salaried and highly paid (including high base salaries plus bonuses).

IT employees who perform their company's valuable installation and technical support functions – installing, maintaining, supporting, and repairing computer software and hardware, for the company itself or for customers of the company - have recovered overtime pay.

How long do we get to recover this pay? I regularly put in 50+ hours and work on my vacations since we scaled back in 2008. I've felt like I'm a clocktower candidate for a few years now.

[Jeff V]

Most drone-level IT people aren't exempt employees (which generally requires a majority of time spent supervising/managing). I did get OT back pay once when a complaint was launched against a former employer (everyone though I filed the complaint -- but it wasn't me!) All of the IT techs where I work now get OT for over 40 hours -- very rarely are they allowed to work it, though. If off-hours work is required, they are told to compensate by taking time off elsewhere during the same week. Since I am a manager, I am salary and can work all the hours I want -- but quality of life is important with this company, and rarely do I need to exceed 40 hours (I can almost always compensate with time off elsewhere).

[Cylus Maxii]

Most drone-level IT people aren't exempt employees (which generally requires a majority of time spent supervising/managing). I did get OT back pay once when a complaint was launched against a former employer (everyone though I filed the complaint -- but it wasn't me!) All of the IT techs where I work now get OT for over 40 hours -- very rarely are they allowed to work it, though. If off-hours work is required, they are told to compensate by taking time off elsewhere during the same week. Since I am a manager, I am salary and can work all the hours I want -- but quality of life is important with this company, and rarely do I need to exceed 40 hours (I can almost always compensate with time off elsewhere).

This is identical to the policy at my place of employment.

[gilraen]

When I first started at my company, we were salaried. Then a few years back there was a big lawsuit in California - not against our company but against some other big tech firm, specifically for having salaried employees work extra hours without extra compensation. So our company took a preemptive strike - reclassified us as hourly and issued back-pay checks for "estimated" overtime hours worked since start of employment. So now we are hourly, although overtime laws do vary by state. E.g. in Colorado I get overtime for any hours worked over 12 hours in a 24-hour period. In Iowa, same grade employees can only accrue overtime once they work over 40 hours in a single week. Either way, since we're about as short-staffed as we can possibly get, we work some crazy hours, so the paychecks reflect it nicely (although there's a fine line between enjoying the extra cash and saying "just keep your money, I'm tired and taking a day off!")

[TheMix]

I disagree with that statement. I don't think that's a fine line at all.

[Isgrimnur]

DOL

Today the U.S. Department of Labor announced a final rule to make 1.3 million American workers eligible for overtime pay under the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA).
...
The final rule updates the earnings thresholds necessary to exempt executive, administrative, or professional employees from the FLSA's minimum wage and overtime pay requirements, and allows employers to count a portion of certain bonuses (and commissions) towards meeting the salary level. The new thresholds account for growth in employee earnings since the currently enforced thresholds were set in 2004. In the final rule, the Department is:

• raising the "standard salary level" from the currently enforced level of $455 to $684 per week (equivalent to $35,568 per year for a full-year worker);
• raising the total annual compensation level for "highly compensated employees (HCE)" from the currently-enforced level of $100,000 to $107,432 per year;
• allowing employers to use nondiscretionary bonuses and incentive payments (including commissions) that are paid at least annually to satisfy up to 10 percent of the standard salary level, in recognition of evolving pay practices; and
• revising the special salary levels for workers in U.S. territories and in the motion picture industry.

The final rule will be effective on January 1, 2020.
...
The Department estimates that 1.2 million additional workers will be entitled to minimum wage and overtime pay as a result of the increase to the standard salary level. The Department also estimates that an additional 101,800 workers will be entitled to overtime pay as a result of the increase to the HCE compensation level.