Hourly vs. Salary

SpaceLord · Post by **SpaceLord** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:39 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
SpaceLord wrote:I'm On-Call right now.
Are you receiving compensation for it?

It's part of my job description.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:46 pm

GreenGoo wrote:Although LM works a shop by himself and he has contracts with vendors for various things. I assume (but don't know) that some of those contracts are for support.

You know it. But someone is still the internal resource to work with that support and the only time they work off hours with us is if they and we have to. We try really hard to make everything work between 8 and 5, though there are times when I need to work, late, early, and weekends. They did publish my personal cell, but they also know that I won't always answer it. But the important thing is that I know it's easier to deal with problems as they arise than it is try and deal with them as I make room for them in schedule.

So if your employer is using a specific product that comes with a support contract, you need to find out how much it is and what the conditions of support are. From my perspective you're just a (well paid) technician, and you don't get those guys on call for free.

That's really what I am. Though I am actually a well paid and lightly trained monkey with a good head for troubleshooting. They get me off hours for free because they're good to me by comparison... and I'm salary... I don't make 50k but I have low demands job and am now working in heavily depressed area.

You could negotiate a 1/4, 1/8, or 1/16 of an hour pay for every hour of on call, or you could negotiate being on call only during the "day", say 7am to 7pm or something on days you're not in the office, and maybe 4 hours after regular work days. But still I'd expect something for that time. And they would STILL have to pay you when you are actually called in, overtime if you've already put in a full day, or straight time. Something that you guys can work out.

or comp time. The company should have spelled out that his compensation was for being on call. That is wasn't makes his bitch legit, IMO. They altered the deal, a la Darth Vader. From his description of the problem though, it's a put up or shut up environment. So that's a new job hunt and quit with no regard for or loyalty to the existing company position IMO.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:50 pm

Ultimately, as Trig was saying, don't get bogged down in right/wrong and fair/unfair in this. They're your employer, so (at least in most cases) they are the dominant party in this relationship. You need to not think so much about what is deserved, what is fair, etc., but how you can best match their needs with minimum disruption (or maximum compensation) for you.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:53 pm

Paingod wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:Everyone I know who is in IT, both salaried and hourly, accept being on-call as being part of the job... IMO, IT is one where it's not unreasonable to expect hourly employees to be on call.
At no cost? Just be "On Call" for free?

As a required part of employment and built in to hourly compensation presumably. I guess it's a career decision to make, if you don't like it or you don't think they're offering enough you can look for an employer that doesn't require on-call or pays more for it.

GreenGoo wrote:And everyone I know in IT gets paid for being on-call, or else they don't go on-call.

It's insane to think this company wants 24/7 support without paying for it.

They get paid hourly for being on call? Fascinating.

Post by **godhugh** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:55 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:And everyone I know in IT gets paid for being on-call, or else they don't go on-call.

It's insane to think this company wants 24/7 support without paying for it.
They get paid hourly for being on call? Fascinating.

Yeah, I've never heard of that before. I'm on-call 1-2 weekends a month and I only get paid if I actually get a call. I've never heard of just getting paid for being on-call if you don't have to do anything.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:00 pm

I know our company would be in tremendous hot water if our job description did not spell out very clearly what our on call policy was.

This. Only they or pg sort of backdoored into his position which throws everything out the window and again it sounds like he backdoored into a position working for Darth Vader. He can either rebel and sneak out or do his job. (being angry about it or not is further up to him)

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:02 pm

It's amazing that there seems to be two camps here. Summarized very roughly ...

1. I've never been paid for this, suck it up and do it.

2. I've always been paid for this, it's crazy that they won't pay.

See, where I've worked people have always been paid for being on-call. You had the pager, you got a little cash. It was just the nature of it. This is the first place I've ever worked where they say "bend over and take the pager" ... and I'm honestly surprised and a little shocked at the number of people who agree with that. Huh.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:05 pm

Paingod wrote: See, where I've worked people have always been paid for being on-call. You had the pager, you got a little cash. It was just the nature of it. This is the first place I've ever worked where they say "bend over and take the pager" ... and I'm honestly surprised and a little shocked at the number of people who agree with that. Huh.

The closest I've heard of are pager lunches and/or pager benders. Basically where the person getting the pager gets treated to lunch when it's their turn and/or they get treated to a bunch of drinks when they're done.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:12 pm

Paingod wrote:It's amazing that there seems to be two camps here. Summarized very roughly ...

1. I've never been paid for this, suck it up and do it.

2. I've always been paid for this, it's crazy that they won't pay.

See, where I've worked people have always been paid for being on-call. You had the pager, you got a little cash. It was just the nature of it. This is the first place I've ever worked where they say "bend over and take the pager" ... and I'm honestly surprised and a little shocked at the number of people who agree with that. Huh.

What I've never heard of is someone being asked to be on call as an hourly employee without it ever having been spelled out. That said, it's crazy they won't pay, however, suck it up and do it (until/unless you have an out).

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:16 pm

In thinking about it, when I was paid hourly there was never a time I was on call. When the same exact job went to salary, magically I was expected to be available after hours and on the weekends. The jump in reportable income was significant and I was just out of school at the time, so it wasn't really a debatable issue for me. However when I made the jump to another salaried position elsewhere one of the big draws was paid overtime based on an hourly rate. Depending on the time of year, it could have been 5-10 hours a month, sometimes more for big events.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:18 pm

Smoove_B wrote:However when I made the jump to another salaried position elsewhere one of the big draws was paid overtime based on an hourly rate. Depending on the time of year, it could have been 5-10 hours a month, sometimes more for big events.

I don't understand how salary plus over time works and yet it seems to be common. What is the salary part of salary and how does it come in to play?

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:25 pm

It could have been a function of the time. With the economy imploding, it wouldn't surprise me if it was cut. I wouldn't say it was common in my field, but I think it done (in this case anyway) as a way to offset the relatively low annual salary. Remember the good old days when employers had to do things to attract people?

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:28 pm

noxiousdog wrote: When you're in IT ops, you're on call 24/7/365. It's the nature of the beast. The likely hood that they call you in is very low, but it can still happen, and certainly depends on factors including size of the operation, the staff, and criticality.

Ridiculous.

Of course I live in a haven of socialism, so it might not work that way in "America, Fuck Yeah!" but in Canada we get paid for being available.

Heh, of course I don't speak for every single company in Canada, but the vast majority of IT workers in infrastructure that I know get compensated for being available for emergencies. And yes, they get company issued cel phones as well, although we did just retire an old pager last year.

Again, what ND says may be true in Texas, I wouldn't know, but I know that lots of places in the world compensate their employees for being on-call.

MindToyGames · Post by **MindToyGames** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:30 pm

Well that's the other thing too....the job market pretty much sucks in many states, and employers know they can replace employees fairly easily with all the out of work people around. With IT admittedly being a higher skill trade its a little tougher, but not much. I'm almost certain there would be 2-3 people standing behind Paingod waiting (eagerly, pager requirement and all) for his job should he choose to bail.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:33 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: They get paid hourly for being on call? Fascinating.

Not all of them. Some get a weekly stipend, some get a day off and yes, some get anywhere from 1/4 to 1/16th of their regular hourly pay for their on call time. So yeah, they are getting paid hourly (at a reduced rate) for every hour on call.

Cylus Maxii · Post by **Cylus Maxii** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:40 pm

Maybe the sticking point here is the difference between being "available" and being "on-call". I have worked both situations. When on-call, I was in a rotation with others, had to carry a duty pager or phone and I generally got paid for the responsibility. In most situations in IT, I have simply been available after hours i.e. they had my contact information and could try to get a hold of me and would pay me if I needed to work. In both cases there has almost always been a minimum for a phone call (1 hour) and a minimum plus mileage for having to go in (4 hours). Also on-call was generally considered to be a 24x7 thing that vetoed whatever you were doing (like TheMix noted). Available was much more flexible and had no repercussions. I am currently "available after hours" and that is the level I expect out of any IT person. But on-call is another matter entirely.

I think you need to negotiate this on the basis of its changing from "available" to a more formal "on-call" and negotiate the parameters of that. It sounds like it was originally "available" and they are pushing it towards on-call. Since you are a lone wolf, they can't really expect you to be on-call 24x7x365; you would go insane, so they should negotiate and document what they are asking for. It would be a good time for you to negotiate a salary bump too 9if they insist on going closer to the on-call end of the spectrum.

As always - start looking for another job before you start re-negotiating what you have.

gameoverman · Post by **gameoverman** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:40 pm

The only places I've worked on call, not IT btw, I got paid for being on call in addition to being paid for coming in. I can't imagine how much it would suck to not get paid for putting your life on hold while you wait to see if they need you.

The only way that sounds workable is if you never go anywhere, never do anything, never eat or drink anything, never spend time with anyone that you can't drop on a moment's notice. That's sad because that means getting called in is probably going to be the high point of your day.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:41 pm

I should point out that despite how adamant I've been about being compensated, on PG can determine what the risk is here to his job security, and whether he's ready to go to the mat over this or just suck it up if his job is threatened.

I would also recommend that if you do suck it up and take the pager, that you and your employer decide ahead of time what constitutes an "emergency" that requires on-call service, and what can wait for regular business hours.

As was mentioned above, you don't want to be on call for a password reset. That would create a "gone postal" situation that nobody wants.

noxiousdog · Post by **noxiousdog** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:44 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
noxiousdog wrote: When you're in IT ops, you're on call 24/7/365. It's the nature of the beast. The likely hood that they call you in is very low, but it can still happen, and certainly depends on factors including size of the operation, the staff, and criticality.
Ridiculous.

Of course I live in a haven of socialism, so it might not work that way in "America, Fuck Yeah!" but in Canada we get paid for being available.

Heh, of course I don't speak for every single company in Canada, but the vast majority of IT workers in infrastructure that I know get compensated for being available for emergencies. And yes, they get company issued cel phones as well, although we did just retire an old pager last year.

Again, what ND says may be true in Texas, I wouldn't know, but I know that lots of places in the world compensate their employees for being on-call.

What does compensated mean? They aren't getting a 24x7x365 hourly wage for sure.

noxiousdog · Post by **noxiousdog** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:45 pm

gameoverman wrote:The only places I've worked on call, not IT btw, I got paid for being on call in addition to being paid for coming in. I can't imagine how much it would suck to not get paid for putting your life on hold while you wait to see if they need you.

The only way that sounds workable is if you never go anywhere, never do anything, never eat or drink anything, never spend time with anyone that you can't drop on a moment's notice. That's sad because that means getting called in is probably going to be the high point of your day.

I don't think that's the kind of on-call we are talking about.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:46 pm

gameoverman wrote:The only way that sounds workable is if you never go anywhere, never do anything, never eat or drink anything, never spend time with anyone that you can't drop on a moment's notice. That's sad because that means getting called in is probably going to be the high point of your day.

This. this can't be over emphasized. Say good bye to travel. Not even weekends away with the missus. Say good bye to anything but the occasional beer. No party nights, x-mas and New Year's eve included. Say good bye to a day out biking, hiking or at the beach.

Your life is completely different if you are on-call. Since you have no one to rotate the on-call shift to, you will always be tethered to work and the moment they want you they just tug on your leash and you come arunning. To do that without being compensated boggles my mind.

As far as I'm concerned, ND has been completely screwed over by his employers (assuming he wasn't compensated in some way). The idea that he is ok with that has me scratching my head.

Cylus Maxii · Post by **Cylus Maxii** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:47 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Smoove_B wrote:However when I made the jump to another salaried position elsewhere one of the big draws was paid overtime based on an hourly rate. Depending on the time of year, it could have been 5-10 hours a month, sometimes more for big events.
I don't understand how salary plus over time works and yet it seems to be common. What is the salary part of salary and how does it come in to play?

For me - it means that I get the benefits of being salaried and that I'm not guaranteed to get paid for excess hours. I always do since I work on external contracts. The corporate guys aren't as lucky. In my case, there are regulations in many states that roughly say that when hours are charged to a contract, the employees all get paid for all hours charged under their name. It also means that as a salaried employee, I don't get time and a half and so on. Its all straight time. However, I do have a flex schedule.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:47 pm

As a point of reference, too - they've had maybe 4 instances where they couldn't get ahold of me. And 20 where they did. Even my "days off" are typically interruted by at least one "Help help help!" call.

I once had a manager tell me he was giving me a pager (old old job) because I didn't return one of his phone calls at 2:00am, regarding a site that wasn't in my area and for an issue that wasn't my responsibility. I told him that I wouldn't wear a pager and if he wanted to waste $10 a month he could give me a raise instead. Ultimately I had to explain myself to the district manager, but got nothing more than a slap on the wrist and never had to wear the pager.

This kind of feels like that to me. I missed a call - they get all bent out of shape. I get the call, they forget I did.

My wife and I are always running errands and going out - I don't want to have to continually check in with my manager to let her know "It's Sunday - we've decided to go to the beach, you'll want to call the Vendor first" "We just left home to go visit my mother, I can't help for about 8 hours" ... No way. When I missed their call this weekend, I was out celebrating my birthday with my wife and she had a full day of things planned that had nothing to do with being anywhere near a computer.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:48 pm

noxiousdog wrote:What does compensated mean? They aren't getting a 24x7x365 hourly wage for sure.

Compensated means to receive compensation. What that compensation is is up to them and him.

And agreed, no one is getting full hourly rate for on-call.

Arcanis · Post by **Arcanis** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:48 pm

PG sit down with them find out what they really want and what they are offering for it. Then decide if it is worth it to you. From the sounds of it I would be looking for a new job anyway, just because your company sounds like they don't care about their employees.

I'm in not all that different a situation than PG myself. Except I'm a contract worker and not a direct employee. I'm the only tech guy in the office, technically I support 2 locations but the other one only has a couple of people. I am expected to be available and respond to any issues 24/7/365. They understand I will make the best reasonable effort to fix any problems, but that my life doesn't revolve around work. I check my phone intermittently through out the day, and when I get up in the morning just in case. I will make sure it isn't an emergency and fix the issue in an appropriate time frame. I use my own smart phone, but i did factor in the costs to get unlimited data and such when I did my contract.

Post by **godhugh** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:50 pm

Paingod wrote:As a point of reference, too - they've had maybe 4 instances where they couldn't get ahold of me. And 20 where they did. Even my "days off" are typically interruted by at least one "Help help help!" call.

I once had a manager tell me he was giving me a pager (old old job) because I didn't return one of his phone calls at 2:00am, regarding a site that wasn't in my area and for an issue that wasn't my responsibility. I told him that I wouldn't wear a pager and if he wanted to waste $10 a month he could give me a raise instead. Ultimately I had to explain myself to the district manager, but got nothing more than a slap on the wrist and never had to wear the pager.

This kind of feels like that to me. I missed a call - they get all bent out of shape. I get the call, they forget I did.

Man, you really are doing everything you can to make sure you're first on the lay-off list. Not saying you're necessarily 100% in the wrong, but that kind of attitude and response will get you canned really fast at the companies I've worked for (big, big IT companies).

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:50 pm

Hmm.. salaried. Expected to be available 24/7. Rarely actually need to be. Don't get anything extra when I do.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:53 pm

godhugh wrote:Man, you really are doing everything you can to make sure you're first on the lay-off list. Not saying you're necessarily 100% in the wrong, but that kind of attitude and response will get you canned really fast at the companies I've worked for (big, big IT companies).

There was a lot of backstory to that one - the guy was a total douche and trying to pull a total douche move. It wasn't an IT job, it was a Security job. I was an Account Manager for a small site, and his problem was 70 miles away from me. He was the worst manager I've ever seen anywhere and I had built a huge log of his asinine crap to hand over to the District Manager when this happened. I think it was about 7 pages of stuff. I was at a point with him where I didn't care if they were going to fire me. I just needed to make something happen and he gave me the trigger.

noxiousdog · Post by **noxiousdog** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:54 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:What does compensated mean? They aren't getting a 24x7x365 hourly wage for sure.
Compensated means to receive compensation. What that compensation is is up to them and him.

And agreed, no one is getting full hourly rate for on-call.

Well, that's very subjective. Compensated can be a pat on the back.

You're right. I got compensated. Over the years I was upgraded from pager, to cell phone, to smart phone.

There's degree here that's not being discussed. If they are telling you where you can and can't go. What you can and can't do, then yes, you should expect significantly more compensation. If they are saying pick up the phone when it rings withing 3 rings, then you should go tell them to screw themselves, unless they are ponying up some cash. Ask them if they really expect you to never see a movie in a theater or go away from cell towers.

If they are saying return a voice mail within 2 hours, meh.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:58 pm

they've had maybe 4 instances where they couldn't get ahold of me. And 20 where they did

Meh. 24 calls that are simply you picking up the phone is no big deal.

Even my "days off" are typically interruted by at least one "Help help help!" call.

That sounds like more than 24 calls.

I missed a call - they get all bent out of shape. I get the call, they forget I did.

Again that sounds like a find another job and then quit this one call to me. If you aren't getting what you want and they want more then it's time to go if you can.

I'm lucky. Work has offered me a cell phone. I declined. I already feel like I can't take a real vacation and I don't want a tether. As it goes, no one can (or does) complain when I don't answer my phone and I've also answered the phone and have been justified in informing employees that they are calling me on my personal phone and what they want had better damned well be important enough to not wait until tomorrow. The moment work asks me to change life so I'm always on call is the moment I at least start looking through the want ads. One man 24x7x365 is beyond ridiculous. On man doing that for any money short of what he can retire on in 10 years is walk away unacceptable.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:09 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:What does compensated mean? They aren't getting a 24x7x365 hourly wage for sure.
Compensated means to receive compensation. What that compensation is is up to them and him.

And agreed, no one is getting full hourly rate for on-call.

That's the great thing about being salary, am I making $58/hr for business hours or $12.25 for every hour of every day of every year? I'm going with $12 number as it makes me sound more blue collar.

Note: These numbers are purely theoretical.

More seriously, I carry a company blackberry and am L3 support and expected to be available 24x7x365. Luckily our users are businesses that typically only use the system during hours I am in the office. I get a call once every 3 months or so and I don't plan my life around those calls.

My advice to PG would echo several others, find a job at a company that's a bit less Mickey Mouse.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:09 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
gameoverman wrote:The only way that sounds workable is if you never go anywhere, never do anything, never eat or drink anything, never spend time with anyone that you can't drop on a moment's notice. That's sad because that means getting called in is probably going to be the high point of your day.
This. this can't be over emphasized. Say good bye to travel. Not even weekends away with the missus. Say good bye to anything but the occasional beer. No party nights, x-mas and New Year's eve included. Say good bye to a day out biking, hiking or at the beach.

Your life is completely different if you are on-call. Since you have no one to rotate the on-call shift to, you will always be tethered to work and the moment they want you they just tug on your leash and you come arunning. To do that without being compensated boggles my mind.

As far as I'm concerned, ND has been completely screwed over by his employers (assuming he wasn't compensated in some way). The idea that he is ok with that has me scratching my head.

No it's not. I've been with someone on-call at a baseball game. They managed the situation and got everything fixed without having to leave their seat. I've been at bars with people getting calls. Once someone actually had to leave, they got a cab to the site, directed the fix, and met us out later. It was understood by their employer that the 8 beers were consumed before the call came in. And these are all for mission critical systems. Their employers have managed to design an on-call system that works around their employees lives.

And Travel? Why does a job with on-call requirements mean you can't schedule a vacation? In fact, even with a stipend or extra days off, I'm not sure why anyone would allow themselves to be on-call under the conditions you describe. I'd wager such situations are 1 in 1000 or less in the free world, and those 1s are probably paid extremely well. No biking? No hiking? Wow, socialism must really suck.

I guess it's necessary to define on-call here. IT on-call isn't always the same as surgeon on-call or fighter pilot on-call.

Nor are all IT on-call situations the same. People may be on-call to direct on-site subordinates. They may be on-call as the only person available to fix a problem. They may be on-call as a support backup. They may be on-call only for mission critical systems in emergencies.

How's this:

For the most part, in my observation and experience, for most IT jobs, you aren't paid hourly or additionaly for on-call status. At the same time for the most part, in my observation and experience, for most IT jobs, you can have a beer, go for a walk, or even sleep when you are on-call.

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:28 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Smoove_B wrote:However when I made the jump to another salaried position elsewhere one of the big draws was paid overtime based on an hourly rate. Depending on the time of year, it could have been 5-10 hours a month, sometimes more for big events.
I don't understand how salary plus over time works and yet it seems to be common. What is the salary part of salary and how does it come in to play?

I'm not in IT but I'm salaried with overtime possibilities. We get paid for 80 hours of production time every 2 weeks as salary, and any production time we work beyond that gets paid as overtime.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:37 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
gameoverman wrote:The only way that sounds workable is if you never go anywhere, never do anything, never eat or drink anything, never spend time with anyone that you can't drop on a moment's notice. That's sad because that means getting called in is probably going to be the high point of your day.
This. this can't be over emphasized. Say good bye to travel. Not even weekends away with the missus. Say good bye to anything but the occasional beer. No party nights, x-mas and New Year's eve included. Say good bye to a day out biking, hiking or at the beach.

Your life is completely different if you are on-call. Since you have no one to rotate the on-call shift to, you will always be tethered to work and the moment they want you they just tug on your leash and you come arunning. To do that without being compensated boggles my mind.

As far as I'm concerned, ND has been completely screwed over by his employers (assuming he wasn't compensated in some way). The idea that he is ok with that has me scratching my head.
No it's not. I've been with someone on-call at a baseball game. They managed the situation and got everything fixed without having to leave their seat. I've been at bars with people getting calls. Once someone actually had to leave, they got a cab to the site, directed the fix, and met us out later. It was understood by their employer that the 8 beers were consumed before the call came in. And these are all for mission critical systems. Their employers have managed to design an on-call system that works around their employees lives.

Yes, it is.

PG is the only support they have. How's he going to manage the situation from his baseball game seat when he's the only one who knows anything about the system? He's the sole support.

You can sleep because you wake up when they call. You can't drink because if they call when you're drunk, then you're drunk when they need you. If they don't have a problem with that, then you either aren't on call and they are just begging for help, or they are more lenient than most companies. You can't go for a hike or a bike ride, because you are then hours away from civilization and can't respond in a timely fashion. If you are able to do those things, then you aren't really on call.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:43 pm

They do have "the backup" of the Vendor company. Despite the vendor stepping in and fixing this (again, per the previous agreement) they still push that I should be on a pager. It's supposed to be that if I'm out or unavailable, the vendor company gets the call. Everything went according to a pre-arranged deal, and it's a problem for them.

So, I can go for a bike ride, go to a movie, or go hiking up a mountain - but if they had to call the vendor, I'm going to get chewed out (more for not returning the call than not handling the issue). There might not be a problem if I returned the call and the problem was already handled. At least they'd feel like I was there somewhere.

Arcanis · Post by **Arcanis** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:46 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
gameoverman wrote:The only way that sounds workable is if you never go anywhere, never do anything, never eat or drink anything, never spend time with anyone that you can't drop on a moment's notice. That's sad because that means getting called in is probably going to be the high point of your day.
This. this can't be over emphasized. Say good bye to travel. Not even weekends away with the missus. Say good bye to anything but the occasional beer. No party nights, x-mas and New Year's eve included. Say good bye to a day out biking, hiking or at the beach.

Your life is completely different if you are on-call. Since you have no one to rotate the on-call shift to, you will always be tethered to work and the moment they want you they just tug on your leash and you come arunning. To do that without being compensated boggles my mind.

As far as I'm concerned, ND has been completely screwed over by his employers (assuming he wasn't compensated in some way). The idea that he is ok with that has me scratching my head.
No it's not. I've been with someone on-call at a baseball game. They managed the situation and got everything fixed without having to leave their seat. I've been at bars with people getting calls. Once someone actually had to leave, they got a cab to the site, directed the fix, and met us out later. It was understood by their employer that the 8 beers were consumed before the call came in. And these are all for mission critical systems. Their employers have managed to design an on-call system that works around their employees lives.
Yes, it is.

PG is the only support they have. How's he going to manage the situation from his baseball game seat when he's the only one who knows anything about the system? He's the sole support.

You can sleep because you wake up when they call. You can't drink because if they call when you're drunk, then you're drunk when they need you. If they don't have a problem with that, then you either aren't on call and they are just begging for help, or they are more lenient than most companies. You can't go for a hike or a bike ride, because you are then hours away from civilization and can't respond in a timely fashion. If you are able to do those things, then you aren't really on call.

Your version of on call sounds more like sitting there staring at the phone in case it rings. I have never had to do that nor has anyone else I know of that has ever been on call. If they expect immediate response times they people would have to follow what you are saying, if the expect reasonable response times then it can be far more relaxed.

noxiousdog · Post by **noxiousdog** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:48 pm

GreenGoo wrote: You can sleep because you wake up when they call. You can't drink because if they call when you're drunk, then you're drunk when they need you. If they don't have a problem with that, then you either aren't on call and they are just begging for help, or they are more lenient than most companies. You can't go for a hike or a bike ride, because you are then hours away from civilization and can't respond in a timely fashion. If you are able to do those things, then you aren't really on call.

I like how about 6 people have told you you're wrong, but you insist it's only your way. Apparently there's no one right way to on-call.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:52 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
GreenGoo wrote: You can sleep because you wake up when they call. You can't drink because if they call when you're drunk, then you're drunk when they need you. If they don't have a problem with that, then you either aren't on call and they are just begging for help, or they are more lenient than most companies. You can't go for a hike or a bike ride, because you are then hours away from civilization and can't respond in a timely fashion. If you are able to do those things, then you aren't really on call.
I like how about 6 people have told you you're wrong, but you insist it's only your way. Apparently there's no one right way to on-call.

Give me a break. Several people have told you you're wrong including the OP, but I don't see you batting an eye.

And obviously, given Lawbeef's definition of on-call, that phrase means different things to different people, and different organizations.

Given PG's IT role at his company, I'm very confident my definition of on-call in this case is closer than an executive's idea of on-call.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:54 pm

Arcanis wrote:Your version of on call sounds more like sitting there staring at the phone in case it rings. I have never had to do that nor has anyone else I know of that has ever been on call. If they expect immediate response times they people would have to follow what you are saying, if the expect reasonable response times then it can be far more relaxed.

Define reasonable response time? Is it measured in (multiple) hours? Because mine isn't, and if the company can afford a response time of (multiple) hours, then they probably don't need on-call service at all.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:00 pm

Needs definitely differ depending on the company and type of resource. Is your company losing money/customers/whatever every second they are waiting for you to answer the phone? In that case the GreenGoo type of call may be called for. We don't know if PGs business falls in this bucket or something where issues are typically less critical. The company is certainly not set up for 24x7 support with an IT shop of 1 so they must have significant risk tolerance in that area or incredibly stable systems.

OK I lost sight of where I was going with this whole thing. Must be old age. Carry on!