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Military Tech / Science

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:11 am

I'm creating my own catch-all thread for cool military science developments, as there are some things that I think are cool, go to post, yet don't feel that they're enough to sustain a thread about them. Obviously, things like the corpse-eating swarm bots and the early developments of the robotic mule will generate their own threads for the sheer awesomeness, but I need some place to drop the "lesser" stories"

So, to inaugurate, I give you the progress to getting to the Aliens-style combat suit:
The S-911 Vest from Laipac Technology is chest armor with brains. Just as phones have evolved to handle a gazillion different functions, this bulletproof vest has sprouted a GPS system.
Law enforcement, military, security personnel, and VIPs are the target market for the high-tech vest. Built-in GPS provides real-time tracking with location, heading, and speed.
...
You could do all that with a regular GPS tracking system, but the S-911 also has a built-in G sensor that sends alerts when it registers an impact or a man down. All this extra equipment means the vest comes with its own battery charger.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:54 am

They'll integrate IFF into this vest. That way battlefield robots can just shoot anybody without one (or any armed individual witout one, or whatever ROE is decided upon).

When domestic forces start wearing these vests, I'll be very afraid.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:58 am

I don't see that being feasible. As soon it's known that those vests are being worn, the enemy will start looting the dead. So do you put a punch code on their that requires an IFF login every 2 hours? A prompt when entering a no-go zone with a 60 second window before getting the ED-209 treatment?

And our ROE will likely (hopefully) never permit indiscriminate fire against targets.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Paingod » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:04 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:As soon it's known that those vests are being worn, the enemy will start looting the dead.
If it's that high tech, why not a lifesigns monitor that fries the electronics when the wearer flatlines?
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Arcanis » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:09 pm

Paingod wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote:As soon it's known that those vests are being worn, the enemy will start looting the dead.
If it's that high tech, why not a lifesigns monitor that fries the electronics when the wearer flatlines?
Because if the one who shot him steals it we then have a GPS telling us where the hell they are. I'll reference back to my D&D game for a second: "Why the hell would I want the armor of the guy I just killed? Do you see how much good it did him?" I just don't see anyone who shoots a cop/soldier taking the time to steal their vest, but if they want it then by all means take the one with a built in GPS.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:10 pm

And every grunt that takes the vest off without powering it down first ends up frying his vest. Not to mention the security risk from one vest that fails to operate as specified far outweighs the cost of having someone monitor those defense systems like the UAVS are at present.

If you're monitoring stationary turrets, I can easily see an operator having a bank of 8-16 to operate, much like the security camera grids that are prevalent today. If one generates a motion alert, that one folds out for immediate handling by the operator. In a truly networked facility, there would be overlap to hand off others to other operators in the event of multiple alerts.

Much better than trusting a computer programmer to get it right or trust that some burst surge is going to fry that IFF receiver/emitter.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Paingod » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:11 pm

Arcanis wrote:
Paingod wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote:As soon it's known that those vests are being worn, the enemy will start looting the dead.
If it's that high tech, why not a lifesigns monitor that fries the electronics when the wearer flatlines?
Because if the one who shot him steals it we then have a GPS telling us where the hell they are. I'll reference back to my D&D game for a second: "Why the hell would I want the armor of the guy I just killed? Do you see how much good it did him?" I just don't see anyone who shoots a cop/soldier taking the time to steal their vest, but if they want it then by all means take the one with a built in GPS.
Why not make it two separate systems then - kill everything but the GPS.

*Edit, should have been right behind the one above, not Isgrimnur's.

I dunno. I imagine they'd come up with a way. A toggle to activate/deactivate a locking mechanism - you can't take it off without that, and if you take it off before you flatline using the lock, the self-destruct is cancelled? There's a way to do everything, it's just a matter of how I think. I wonder if the military pays people to come up with ideas and another group to try and poke holes in them.

I mean - somehow Navy SEALs destroyed the vast majority of a stealth helicopter during a raid to kill Osama; they just missed a bit of the tail section that Pakistan gave to China (unless that's been revised). The military seems big on wanting to protect their secrets, by destroying them if they have to.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Arcanis » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:18 pm

The only other system is the G sensor and maybe a com system. I can see needing the com taken out, but then it can't transmit its location back to base. Why do we care if they have a functional G sensor or not? There is nothing in this that they can't get out of a smartphone aside from our possible com encryption. I don't see any reason to encrypt the signal since it should just be sending location and G sensor readings. If they can intercept the transmission then they can likely already figure out where it is coming from and the G sensor info won't help them much as it is nothing but g values and not an assessment of fighting capability. If it is encrypted then it is the same a secure radio falling into the enemy hands, and the same procedures for dealing with that should come into play.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Paingod » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:22 pm

Are we still talking about fighting an enemy that believes we can see through their clothes with our glasses? Or one that could use the technology correctly, which I don't believe we're fighting right now?

And, in the spirit of the thread, a link to a Popular Mechanics article from a few years back, showing some impressive gun tech that was being developed. I'm not sure how much of it hit the pavement, though. Side-shooting guns, air-exploding rounds, and better rifles for troops in general.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Arcanis » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:27 pm

Paingod wrote:Are we still talking about fighting an enemy that believes we can see through their clothes with our glasses? Or one that could use the technology correctly, which I don't believe we're fighting right now?
I was just talking in general terms. What are the likely components of this vest and what is the worst that can happen should one be taken by an enemy (any enemy). The biggest threat isn't a single piece of hardware but the information that could be stolen.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:28 pm

We won't always be fighting people with limited experience with technology. And as the film Lord of War taught us, the five largest arms dealers on the planet are the countries that sit on the UN Security Council.

*And it turns out that, for 2010, Germany has pushed the UK down to 6th.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Paingod » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:33 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:We won't always be fighting people with limited experience with technology.
I do dearly want to believe that only the dimmest bulbs are still out there trying to wage wars. I really hope I don't live to see a day when we square off against a nation that can equal our technology and training with their own (in the US).

If someone hasn't seen it yet, too - check out this company: MetalStorm - makers of electronically fired amunition for insanely fast firing rates and very cool high-tech guns.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Fretmute » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:38 pm

Paingod wrote:Side-shooting guns, air-exploding rounds, and better rifles for troops in general.
The XM-25 has been fielded. The only complaint has been that they don't have enough of them.

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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:43 pm

Fretmute wrote:
Paingod wrote:Side-shooting guns, air-exploding rounds, and better rifles for troops in general.
The XM-25 has been fielded. The only complaint has been that they don't have enough of them.
And Sectoid had the thread on it.

And they were using the Corner Shot last week on Top Shot.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Paingod » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:46 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:And they were using the Corner Shot last week on Top Shot.
Just awesome. I'm so out of touch with television; had no idea that show existed. I've got some watching to do now.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:53 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:I don't see that being feasible. As soon it's known that those vests are being worn, the enemy will start looting the dead. So do you put a punch code on their that requires an IFF login every 2 hours? A prompt when entering a no-go zone with a 60 second window before getting the ED-209 treatment?
Biometrics. Or more likely RFID chips. We trust fly-by-wire, right?

It's not like friendly fire doesn't exist now. And with robots on the battle field there will be less friendlies to kill anyway.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:55 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:Biometrics. Or more likely RFID chips.
:pop: Please expand on how you anticipate this working.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Arcanis » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:13 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:Biometrics. Or more likely RFID chips.
:pop: Please expand on how you anticipate this working.
Here is some information on the prototyping stage for that. :wink:
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Fretmute » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:16 pm

What I like most about the business that I'm in is that it's very obvious when someone decides to toss in an extra word to make the acronym more palatable.

[note on laziness]
We use a two layer acronym for the program I'm on now, because we decided that adding extra letters was too long . . . so the middle letter now stands for the old acronym.
[/note on laziness]

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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:20 pm

Arcanis wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:Biometrics. Or more likely RFID chips.
:pop: Please expand on how you anticipate this working.
Here is some information on the prototyping stage for that. :wink:
:P Yeah, I doubt they're going to get away chipping soldiers. Besides, then you add desecration of our soldiers to merely looting them.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:05 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: :P Yeah, I doubt they're going to get away chipping soldiers. Besides, then you add desecration of our soldiers to merely looting them.
I seriously doubt you lack the imagination to see the obvious next steps, considering where we are.

As for desecration, as horrible as it is, it's not really a consideration of warfare, is it? Even if it were, once established that an enemy has no problem killing our soldiers, I don't really see a "next level" of hostility that desecration suddenly puts us in. Also, if they want to spend precious time in the field trying to find a rice-grain sized chip in a 200lb body, it's a tactical advantage for us.

And finally, this idea (in our discussion anyway) started as a compliment to a robot combat force that is supposed to reduce troop numbers on the front line and other areas in harm's way. So if it saves soldiers' lives at the cost of an enemy possibly gaining incentive to mutilate corpses, well I guess that's a call for the military. The whole robot thing is scary as hell to me, but not because of the possiblity of soldier RFID implants.





BTW, excellent thread/topic. I'll throw something out there. Not exactly cutting edge, but the Singapore Ministry of Defense just dropped $60M on these (pdf). Tell me that's not straight out of Far Cry or Uncharted or something.
Image
Image
Wikipedia wrote:Main armament
• 1× CIS 40 Automatic grenade launcher, or
• 1× CIS 50 Heavy machine gun, or
• Spike Anti-tank missiles (mounted on an adjustable height/telescopic twin-tube launcher, up to six missiles carried), or
• 1× STK 120 mm Super rapid advance mortar system (SRAMS)

Secondary armament
• 1–2× FN MAG or Ultimax 100
Also note the convenient TOW-holder.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:22 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Isgrimnur wrote: :P Yeah, I doubt they're going to get away chipping soldiers. Besides, then you add desecration of our soldiers to merely looting them.
I seriously doubt you lack the imagination to see the obvious next steps, considering where we are.

As for desecration, as horrible as it is, it's not really a consideration of warfare, is it? Even if it were, once established that an enemy has no problem killing our soldiers, I don't really see a "next level" of hostility that desecration suddenly puts us in. Also, if they want to spend precious time in the field trying to find a rice-grain sized chip in a 200lb body, it's a tactical advantage for us.

And finally, this idea (in our discussion anyway) started as a compliment to a robot combat force that is supposed to reduce troop numbers on the front line and other areas in harm's way. So if it saves soldiers' lives at the cost of an enemy possibly gaining incentive to mutilate corpses, well I guess that's a call for the military. The whole robot thing is scary as hell to me, but not because of the possiblity of soldier RFID implants.
One, the implantable chips are passive, and read only with the use of a handheld scanner. That, coupled with the body's natural opacity/interference with radio waves (thanks, Combustible Lemur), I doubt an active broadcasting chip is in the near future for implantability. And those things in your article are freaking huge from an implant standpoint. Unless you're hiding it between bones ir in an internal cavity, it won't be that hard to find.

Two, you're talking about the military here. Do you really think that they're going to be varied enough to not put that chip in the same place, or one of, say, five places on every soldier? This isn't a LoJack install where they can put it anywhere they want.
LawBeefaroni wrote: BTW, excellent thread/topic.
Thanks. :)
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:38 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:
One, the implantable chips are passive, and read only with the use of a handheld scanner. That, coupled with the body's natural opacity/interference with radio waves (thanks, Combustible Lemur), I doubt an active broadcasting chip is in the near future for implantability. And those things in your article are freaking huge from an implant standpoint. Unless you're hiding it between bones ir in an internal cavity, it won't be that hard to find.
No, no, no. The chip is read by the vest, passively. Remember, we're talking about using the RFID to authenticate the user of the vest here, for IFF purposes. The vest already has active long range communications.
Isgrimnur wrote: Two, you're talking about the military here. Do you really think that they're going to be varied enough to not put that chip in the same place, or one of, say, five places on every soldier? This isn't a LoJack install where they can put it anywhere they want.
And here I guess we're talking about combat surgery. I doubt it's all too common of a skill to be able to remove an implanted RFID chip in combat conditions.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Odin » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:47 pm

My son is incredibly excited to learn that the US Navy is quite far along toward the actual implementation of offensive laser weaponry to destroy enemy ships and drones.

I also think it's pretty cool.

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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:49 pm

Okay, from a bit of reading, you could carry a battery pack on the vest to power the reader, which powers the RFID chip.

The chips being used in animals are subdermal. A tribesman with a bayonet could remove it. We're not talking about surgery, we're talking about butchery. I'm not worrying about it being done in the middle of a firefight. I'm worried about it being done to a missing soldier, and the chip being removed either by his captors/killers and leveraged into a special operations mission.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:08 pm

Isgrimnur wrote:Okay, from a bit of reading, you could carry a battery pack on the vest to power the reader, which powers the RFID chip.

The chips being used in animals are subdermal. A tribesman with a bayonet could remove it. We're not talking about surgery, we're talking about butchery. I'm not worrying about it being done in the middle of a firefight. I'm worried about it being done to a missing soldier, and the chip being removed either by his captors/killers and leveraged into a special operations mission.
And these tribesmen in question, they would otherwise treat a captive US solider with dignity and respect and not try and leverage them into a special ops mission? The vest and it's corresponding RFID chip is the only thing that would compel them to hold/kill/butcher a US soldier, and all for equpiment that they could make little to no use of?
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:16 pm

No, I don't expect the presence of that chip to change anything about the way they treat the soldier or his remains.

But the added security risk of having something that could function as a security access badge that's recoverable from his person that definitely says, "This is Pvt. Richards", and could be used to bypass security checkpoints, is a matter of concern. The possible mistakes of trusting too much in technology to the point of laxity in security is a concern to me.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Isgrimnur » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:20 pm

Odin wrote:My son is incredibly excited to learn that the US Navy is quite far along toward the actual implementation of offensive laser weaponry to destroy enemy ships and drones.

I also think it's pretty cool.
Those are pretty cool. Of course, to see all those incoming things, you need one of the competitors for the next generation radar for destroyers:
Raytheon this morning said that it has passed a major milestone in its bid to win a multi-billion dollar U.S. Navy radar contract.
The Tewksbury, Massachusetts military contract is currently competing against Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman for the lucrative contract to provide next-generation Air and Missile Defense Radar (AMDR) technology for the Navy's Arleigh Burke-class destroyers. As part of its efforts to win the deal, Raytheon has just surpassed 1,000 hours of degradation-free testing on its Gallium Nitride transmit/receive modules. Completing the 1,000 hours of testing, during which the modules were said to have shown "consistent power output across multiple channels," the company said in a release, was a major self-imposed milestone.
...
Donohue said that the Navy will likely winnow the group of three competitors down to two by late 2012, and that the final decision will probably be made in time for first deployment by 2016. He also said that the first operational deployed combination of the new radar system and the destroyer on which it will be installed will be around 2020.

The Navy's requirements for the new suite include S-band radar, X-band radar, and a radar suite controller. According to Donohue, the S-band technology provides the capability for scanning very large volumes of space for potential incoming ballistic missile threats, while the X-band technology provides the accuracy required for defense against such threats.

The final radar suite will be comprised of four S-band, and three X-band radars, Donohue said, allowing 360-degree coverage from a destroyer.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Arcanis » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:26 pm

Lasers are cool but nothing says you are having a bad day like 23 pounds flying at 5500 ft/sec.

Plus that gives me an excuse to put my favorite video game quote ever:
Spoiler:
Gunnery Chief: [as the character enters the Citadel] This, recruits, is a 20-kilo ferris slug, feel the weight. Every five seconds, the main gun of an everest class dreadnought accelerates one to 1.3% of light-speed. It impacts with the force of a 38-kiloton bomb. That is three times the yield of the city-buster dropped on Hiroshima back on Earth. That means- Sir Issac Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-bitch in space. Now! Serviceman Burnside! What is Newton's first law?
Serviceman Burnside: Sir! An object in motion stays in motion, sir!
Gunnery Chief: No credit for partial answers, maggot!
Serviceman Burnside: Sir! Unless acted on by an outside force, sir!
Gunnery Chief: Damn straight! I dare to assume you ignorant jackasses know that space is empty. Once you fire this hunk of metal, it keeps going til it hits something. That can be a ship. Or the planet behind that ship. It might go off into deep space and hit somebody else in ten thousand years. If you pull the trigger on this, you are ruining someones day, somewhere and sometime. That is why you check your targets. That is why you wait for the computer to give you a damn firing solution. That is why, Serviceman Chung, we do not "eyeball it". This is a weapon of mass destruction. You are not a cowboy shooting from the hip!
Serviceman Chung: Sir, yes sir!
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Odin » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:32 pm

Arcanis wrote:Lasers are cool but nothing says you are having a bad day like 23 pounds flying at 5500 ft/sec.

Plus that gives me an excuse to put my favorite video game quote ever:
Spoiler:
Gunnery Chief: [as the character enters the Citadel] This, recruits, is a 20-kilo ferris slug, feel the weight. Every five seconds, the main gun of an everest class dreadnought accelerates one to 1.3% of light-speed. It impacts with the force of a 38-kiloton bomb. That is three times the yield of the city-buster dropped on Hiroshima back on Earth. That means- Sir Issac Newton is the deadliest son-of-a-bitch in space. Now! Serviceman Burnside! What is Newton's first law?
Serviceman Burnside: Sir! An object in motion stays in motion, sir!
Gunnery Chief: No credit for partial answers, maggot!
Serviceman Burnside: Sir! Unless acted on by an outside force, sir!
Gunnery Chief: Damn straight! I dare to assume you ignorant jackasses know that space is empty. Once you fire this hunk of metal, it keeps going til it hits something. That can be a ship. Or the planet behind that ship. It might go off into deep space and hit somebody else in ten thousand years. If you pull the trigger on this, you are ruining someones day, somewhere and sometime. That is why you check your targets. That is why you wait for the computer to give you a damn firing solution. That is why, Serviceman Chung, we do not "eyeball it". This is a weapon of mass destruction. You are not a cowboy shooting from the hip!
Serviceman Chung: Sir, yes sir!
Railguns are pretty neat, and that's a good quote, but LASERS!!

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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Fretmute » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:46 pm

As long as we're spitballing, here's a live fire test of the Quick Kill system, which is pretty neat.

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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:04 pm

Fretmute wrote:As long as we're spitballing, here's a live fire test of the Quick Kill system, which is pretty neat.
I didn't understand what I was seeing.

Ordinance fired vertically, turned itself horizontal, flew about 10 feet then exploded.

What is it designed to counter/do?

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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Combustible Lemur » Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:15 pm

I believe it was intercepting an rpg

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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by LawBeefaroni » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:13 pm

Combustible Lemur wrote:I believe it was intercepting an rpg

sent from incredible'
Yeah, it destroyed an incoming [something]. They're designed to protect tanks and APCs I think, so probably an RPG or some other kind of anti-tank weapon.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Fretmute » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:25 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote:I believe it was intercepting an rpg.
Yeah, it destroyed an incoming [something]. They're designed to protect tanks and APCs I think, so probably an RPG or some other kind of anti-tank weapon.
Yes, it was an RPG. The most recent live fire test successfully intercepted two RPGs simultaneously launched from under 50 meters.

RPGs don't just blow up; they hit your tank, and then a charge goes off that shoots molten metal into your armor at high speed, and this melts through and causes havoc on the inside of the tank. So, the theory goes, if you explode it on the outside, then all you have to deal with is the explosion, which your armor can handle.

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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Kasey Chang » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:54 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: And they were using the Corner Shot last week on Top Shot.
Future Weapons profiled the CornerShot LONG ago.

They also showed a variant: the Kitty CornerShot. It's the pistol with a toy cat on top of it as a disguise. Put it low on the ground, and around the corner. The bad guy looks, gives a double take, and then is dead.
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Paingod » Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:42 am

Kasey Chang wrote:They also showed a variant: the Kitty CornerShot. It's the pistol with a toy cat on top of it as a disguise. Put it low on the ground, and around the corner. The bad guy looks, gives a double take, and then is dead.
You know, that makes a wierd kind of sense - in a very disturbing way. See a gun barrel poke out around a corner - throw a grenade at it. See a stuffed animal poke out (or what looks like a cat) and go "Huh?"
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:43 am

Fretmute wrote: RPGs don't just blow up; they hit your tank, and then a charge goes off that shoots molten metal into your armor at high speed, and this melts through and causes havoc on the inside of the tank. So, the theory goes, if you explode it on the outside, then all you have to deal with is the explosion, which your armor can handle.
Flanking infantry notwithstanding. :(

Not all RPGs have HEAT warheads though. Some are just explosive.


How is the Quick Kill system an improvement on Trophy?
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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by Fretmute » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:58 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:Not all RPGs have HEAT warheads though. Some are just explosive.

How is the Quick Kill system an improvement on Trophy?
Sure, but you're not quite as worried about those.

As for the second . . . I don't have a good answer, aside from "because it's made in America." ;)

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Re: Military Tech / Science

Post by LawBeefaroni » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:20 am

Fretmute wrote: Sure, but you're not quite as worried about those.
Not in MBTs, true. But in APCs...
Fretmute wrote: As for the second . . . I don't have a good answer, aside from "because it's made in America." ;)
Why do you hate Israel? :wink:
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