We Are ... Horrified

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:19 pm

Former Penn State Assistant Coach for football, Jerry Sandusky, has been arrested on 40 counts of sexual crimes committed against underage boys:

Former Penn State football coach Jerry Sandusky was charged with numerous felony and misdemeanor offenses as the result of a grand jury investigation into sexual abuse of children, while the school's athletic director was charged with perjury.
...
Penn State athletic director Tim Curley and Gary Schultz, who oversaw Penn State's police department, were both charged with perjury and failure to report under the Child Protective Services Law.

According to the attorney general's release, they took little action when confronted with Sandusky's alleged actions and lied about their knowledge of them. Curley and Schultz are scheduled to surrender to authorities Monday.

The charges against Sandusky -- a longtime defensive assistant under Joe Paterno who helped Penn State gain a reputation as "Linebacker U" -- include involuntary deviate sexual intercourse; aggravated indecent assault; unlawful contact with a minor; and endangering the welfare of a child.

WYBaugh · Post by **WYBaugh** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:26 pm

Holy shit....how do you not report this guy??

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:46 pm

Reported revenue in 2007/08 from 118 different college athletic departments:

6th Penn State $91,570,233

KKBlue · Post by **KKBlue** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:56 pm

Telling ya, the children always are the victims of adult power and greed. This stuff doesn't surprise me anymore, I just wish adults would improve with time and treat the children with the respect and humanity they rightfully deserve.

Inverarity · Post by **Inverarity** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:36 pm

Holy shit, that's big news. Sandusky is as well known a coach as they come...errr, you know what I mean.

From what I'm reading, He could face life in prison if convicted on all charges. Deservedly so if the charges are true of course.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:43 pm

From the quick espn update, it sounds like JoePa turned him in as soon as he found out, while the two who were indicted (including the AD) didn't, and probably covered it up. I'm glad JoePa did the right thing, despite it probably being a friend of decades, it had to be hard.

Epic 4g/Tapatalk

EvilHomer3k · Post by **EvilHomer3k** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:41 pm

According to the release, Kelly said the alleged victim encountered Sandusky through The Second Mile program when he was 11 or 12 years old. The Second Mile is a charitable organization founded by Sandusky that operates programs for young people.

Disgusting.

rshetts2 · Post by **rshetts2** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:53 pm

As bad as the coaches action are and if hes guilty he deserves as harsh a punishment as they can levy, the actions of Curly and Schultz are just as deplorable. They are responsible for perpetuating and enabling and if another child was violated after they were aware of the situation, they should be charged with criminal sexual assault by association.

Regarding Sandusky, his abuse of a position of trust and authority SHOULD get him put away for life.

Smutly · Post by **Smutly** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:03 pm

Pyperkub wrote:From the quick espn update, it sounds like JoePa turned him in as soon as he found out, while the two who were indicted (including the AD) didn't, and probably covered it up. I'm glad JoePa did the right thing, despite it probably being a friend of decades, it had to be hard.

Epic 4g/Tapatalk

As soon as JoePa realized the AD was not going to the authorities, didn't he have an obligation to contact them? Is that obstruction or abedding or something else? Regardless, it's f'ed up.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:58 pm

Smutly wrote:
Pyperkub wrote:From the quick espn update, it sounds like JoePa turned him in as soon as he found out, while the two who were indicted (including the AD) didn't, and probably covered it up. I'm glad JoePa did the right thing, despite it probably being a friend of decades, it had to be hard.

Epic 4g/Tapatalk
As soon as JoePa realized the AD was not going to the authorities, didn't he have an obligation to contact them? Is that obstruction or abedding or something else? Regardless, it's f'ed up.

I don't know. I suppose the AD might be able to tell us, but since the incident occurred after Sandusky had retired, and he was subsequently banned from bringing kids on campus, and the account was from an intern, the AD could have told JoePa it had been appropriately dealt with. Yes, he could have probably done more, but without further evidence that JoePa knew more and didn't follow up, or was complicit in the coverup, I don't see it as obstruction or abetting. The Penn St campus police reported to Shultz (as best I can determine from the org chart), FWIW.

I think it more likely that Paterno should have done more, but at this point I'm not sure it would rise beyond a moral level.

gameoverman · Post by **gameoverman** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:56 pm

The part I want more information on is this:

1998- some sort of investigation of child molesting occurs with this coach, was Paterno aware of this?
2002- the grad assistant tells Paterno he SAW a kid getting raped. Paterno calls the AD(not the cops!) the next day. It is a Saturday after all, he's got things to do.

WTF?

Because I don't see how, if you're Paterno, you are put on notice in 1998 that there might be a problem...oh wait, it's nothing. Then four years later a completely unrelated witness reports seeing a child sex crime occur in your facilities and you don't personally call the cops.

mori · Post by **mori** » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:11 pm

A horrible crime may have took place but it would still be sad that this would be the cause of the end of JoePa's reign.

gbasden · Post by **gbasden** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:55 am

mori wrote:A horrible crime may have took place but it would still be sad that this would be the cause of the end of JoePa's reign.

Not really. If, as Gameoverman said, he had the information and sat on it for 7 years, he's a scumbag that doesn't deserve any sympathy.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:31 am

This is probably going to end Paterno's career regardless of how much he knew/didn't knew. It's too embarrassing for the program, and now they have a legitimate reason to get him to step down.

It's possible it should end Paterno's career and more; we'll see once more information comes out. Questions abound. Sandusky was running camps/some foundation thing at PSU right? Was he doing this recently? Post 2004? Did the 2004 incident never amount to more than allegations? Why didn't we hear about them? We're a child safety obsessed culture (frequently to our own detriment). Child molestation charges don't go unnoticed, unless they never appear.

The Grand Jury Report. No time to read it right now, alas.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:05 am

At what point does it become someone else's responsibility to pursue action against the assistant coach? He wasn't a coach at the time, so Paterno wasn't over this guy. It might have happened in a Penn State building, but that does not necessarily place the burden on Paterno. If anything, the burden on reporting the incident to the authorities should lie with the grad assistant who witnessed the crime.

I'm not saying I'm comfortable with anybody's actions here, but I'm not ready to kick Paterno to the curb.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:15 am

gameoverman wrote: 2002- the grad assistant tells Paterno he SAW a kid getting raped.

Is that what happened? From the accounts I read, the GA told Paterno he saw something he thought was "inappropriate".

A collection of opinions.

Joe Posnanski, Sports Illustrated: "I need time. This story, for me at least, needs time. This thing is so vile, so grotesque, that it is human nature to want everyone to pay. Innocent children were hurt, scarred, and as a parent this is something so horrible that I cannot even think of a penalty harsh enough. There is no way to see this thing clearly now, not for me, anyway."

Greg Couch, Fox Sports: "To read this report is to be sickened, but also to wonder why no one did anything to help ... And while the graduate assistant and janitor don't get a pass, they were reacting to an emotional and horrifying scene ... Joe Paterno was not. Penn State athletic director Tim Curley was not. Penn State's senior VP of finances and business Gary Schultz was not. Penn State president Graham Spanier was not."

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:20 am

Posnanski's summary:

The horror of this — “I keep asking myself, should I have known?” one of those acquaintances asked me this weekend — was matched by a single story that staggers the mind. It seems that even though Sandusky left his job in 1999, he had worked out a deal where he still had an office and access to the various athletic facilities. This is something that Penn State tries to do for all its longtime former coaches. Sandusky’s Penn State role at the time is hazy — he wasn’t coaching, but he wasn’t gone. In 2002, the grand jury found, a graduate assistant showed up at the Lasch Football Building late on a Saturday night to watch film, and he heard odd sounds in the shower. When he went to investigate, he allegedly saw Sandusky sexually assaulting a boy that the G.A. estimated was 10 years old.

The story that follows: The graduate assistant was distraught, nearly hysterical, and after consulting with his father, brought what he had seen to Paterno. What did he tell Paterno? How deeply did he go into detail? How well did Paterno understand what happened? How can small details crystallize in such a horrifying scene? The grand jury narrative is that Paterno brought the evidence to Penn State athletic director Tim Curley the next day. Then it took a week and a half before the graduate assistant was asked to tell his story to Curley and Gary Schultz, who oversaw the Penn State University police department. And then, the grand jury charges, the incident was buried and Sandusky was more or less allowed to maintain his office (though he was supposedly restricted from bringing any children into the building).

Curley and Schultz have both been indicted and are being charged with perjury (Curley, the indictment reads, repeatedly denied that he knew) and a failure to report the incident. Sandusky is being charged with 40 separate counts involving eight victims — most of these from AFTER the graduate assistant allegedly saw him assaulting the boy in the shower. If the timeline is to be believed, this is more than just the most sickening and horrifying sports story in memory. It is a human tragedy.

Guess is was basically assault that the GA witnessed.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:28 am

I'm guessing life in prison will probably turn into about 2 weeks if reports about how child molesters are treated behind bars are actually true.

Part of me respects life and doesn't want to take any joy in someone's death, but another part of me finds harming a child to be the lowest form of inhuman evil in existence and would see nothing wrong with his demise.

gameoverman · Post by **gameoverman** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:30 am

That's why I say I need more info, I was just giving a summary of what I've read to this point.

As far as 'inappropriate' goes, what does that mean? Did he think the GA saw activity between two grown men? In the grand jury report it sounds like the GA definitely thought it was a kid. Did he tell Paterno something different?

This whole thing sounds really questionable. The witness calls his dad, not police. The dad suggests talking to Paterno, not police. Paterno talks to his AD, not police. The AD talks to the VP, not police. It smacks of cronies protecting each other, which is understandable if we're talking about protecting your buddy when he gets into a minor scrape(no pun intended). But when underage sex is involved, they are putting their own reputations on the line by doing that.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:39 am

gameoverman wrote: As far as 'inappropriate' goes, what does that mean? Did he think the GA saw activity between two grown men? In the grand jury report it sounds like the GA definitely thought it was a kid. Did he tell Paterno something different?

Yeah, see my second post. Sounds like the GA guessed the kid was 10 years-old.

gameoverman wrote: This whole thing sounds really questionable. The witness calls his dad, not police. The dad suggests talking to Paterno, not police. Paterno talks to his AD, not police. The AD talks to the VP, not police. It smacks of cronies protecting each other, which is understandable if we're talking about protecting your buddy when he gets into a minor scrape(no pun intended). But when underage sex is involved, they are putting their own reputations on the line by doing that.

It sounds like the GA was emotionally distraught and didn't know what to do. Somewhat understandable I guess. Not sure what the father was thinking, maybe trying to protect his son. But Paterno should know better especially since he's always talking about "his kids" being more important than any program. I guess other kids aren't?

GungHo · Post by **GungHo** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:48 pm

What I can't come to grips with is the idea that paterno knew exactly what was going on and didn't report it. Because I can't imagine almost any human being not being horrified, disgusted, and just flat out angry at hearing something like this. To say anyone knew this and still thought first about their job or football team implies a depravity of character I have trouble imagining. Not saying it couldn't happen just that I have trouble imagining it. And so before I'll believe that I need to know more.
I will say that at this point it doesn't look good(obviously) but I remember when we were all set to lynch the Duke lacrosse team a few years back and that story took a helluva turn that I don't think many saw coming.
Regardless of what happens just the possibility that this happened is going to be enough to end paterno's stay at PSU.

I just hope that somehow, some way, those poor children are able to get the help they need and are able to overcome this.

EvilHomer3k · Post by **EvilHomer3k** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:05 pm

The Duke Lacrosse case was one incident with one person. This is 40 counts over several years. If this were to be found to be false claims it would be a pretty elaborate conspiracy for adults, let alone kids to come up with. I agree that we shouldn't automatically brand anyone as guilty but the evidence so far is pretty damning.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:12 pm

EvilHomer3k wrote:The Duke Lacrosse case was one incident with one person. This is 40 counts over several years. If this were to be found to be false claims it would be a pretty elaborate conspiracy for adults, let alone kids to come up with. I agree that we shouldn't automatically brand anyone as guilty but the evidence so far is pretty damning.

Exactly. In the Duke case the question was over guilt (regardless of which side people came down on).

I don't think there's any doubt as to whether the criminal events described in the Penn State case happened. I think Sandusky has confirmed it (in taped calls used at the indictment). The big discussion is over how it was handled by various individuals at Penn State.

FWIW, there are 40 counts but 8 victims. Not that it's any better but it's different than 40 individual victims.

Scuzz · Post by **Scuzz** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:54 pm

The administrators can be guilty even if Sandusky is never found guilty of anything. And JoePa can be included with the administrators. Failure to properly report knowledge of pedophile behavior should brand your morality for the rest of your life.

Default · Post by **Default** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:31 pm

Scuzz wrote:The administrators can be guilty even if Sandusky is never found guilty of anything. And JoePa can be included with the administrators. Failure to properly report knowledge of pedophile behavior should brand your morality for the rest of your life.

Unless JoePa was following procedure. Usually in organizations that deal with youth, you have a chain of command to follow. That's why the guys at the top immediately resigned. This is one of those rare cases where the guys at the apex are punished, instead of getting off scot free.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:29 pm

Default wrote:
Scuzz wrote:This is one of those rare cases where the guys at the apex are punished, instead of getting off scot free.

Resignations aren't a punishment. Not by a long shot. They're turning themselves into the authorities and we'll see what happens.

Inverarity · Post by **Inverarity** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:50 am

Not sure if you're aware (or if you want to be made aware), but this is so inappropriate I have to share it. The name of Sandusky's autobiography is

wait for it

Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story

Seriously, WTF.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:55 am

The reviews are becoming ... interesting as only the internet can deliver.

Inverarity · Post by **Inverarity** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:06 am

Nothing in the world will convince me that he didn't use that title on purpose, as a sort of taunt. It's freaking twisted, that's what it is.

On the JoPa moral obligation front, did he ever even consider the incident when he knew that Sandusky was running "overnight football camps" for boys, on campus? Overnight. Football Camps. For boys.

Also, what about the moral obligation of the guy who actually witnessed the incident? Did he go to cops or did he drop it after he told Paterno? I can't seem to find any more detail about him.

Sarkus · Post by **Sarkus** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:15 am

Inverarity wrote:Also, what about the moral obligation of the guy who actually witnessed the incident? Did he go to cops or did he drop it after he told Paterno? I can't seem to find any more detail about him.

Reports I've seen identify him as a current assistant on Paterno's staff.

At this point it looks like Paterno did what was legally required of him. That doesn't look like it was enough in this case.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:05 am

If the guy that walked witnessed it actually saw Sandusky raping a 10-year-old boy, why in the hell didn't he do something right then to stop it? How do you walk past a child being raped and not do anything to help?

gameoverman · Post by **gameoverman** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:32 pm

That guy who witnessed it is now, so I've read, an assistant coach.

That's why I say this smacks of the old boy network taking care of its own. If I see a grown man having any kind of sexual contact with someone underage, that's a crime and I'm calling he cops, end of story. Yes, I might also call my supervisor, following chain of command procedures, etc. But that's something I'd do in addition to calling the cops.

This guy's dad even told him to call Paterno and not the cops, what's that about? Other than thinking "whatever we do, we must make sure we don't rock the boat" that is.

Scuzz · Post by **Scuzz** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:29 pm

Default wrote:
Scuzz wrote:The administrators can be guilty even if Sandusky is never found guilty of anything. And JoePa can be included with the administrators. Failure to properly report knowledge of pedophile behavior should brand your morality for the rest of your life.
Unless JoePa was following procedure. Usually in organizations that deal with youth, you have a chain of command to follow. That's why the guys at the top immediately resigned. This is one of those rare cases where the guys at the apex are punished, instead of getting off scot free.

So JoePa did his legal due diligence and then ignored/forgot about/hid from the information and that is okay?

Scuzz · Post by **Scuzz** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:31 pm

gameoverman wrote:That guy who witnessed it is now, so I've read, an assistant coach.

That's why I say this smacks of the old boy network taking care of its own. If I see a grown man having any kind of sexual contact with someone underage, that's a crime and I'm calling he cops, end of story. Yes, I might also call my supervisor, following chain of command procedures, etc. But that's something I'd do in addition to calling the cops.

This guy's dad even told him to call Paterno and not the cops, what's that about? Other than thinking "whatever we do, we must make sure we don't rock the boat" that is.

Wide receivers coach on the current staff at Penn State.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:39 pm

gameoverman wrote:That guy who witnessed it is now, so I've read, an assistant coach.

That's why I say this smacks of the old boy network taking care of its own. If I see a grown man having any kind of sexual contact with someone underage, that's a crime and I'm calling he cops, end of story. Yes, I might also call my supervisor, following chain of command procedures, etc. But that's something I'd do in addition to calling the cops.

This guy's dad even told him to call Paterno and not the cops, what's that about? Other than thinking "whatever we do, we must make sure we don't rock the boat" that is.

The quote I've heard that the Graduate Assistant gave Paterno was 'something inappropriate' (but not defined), and 'horsing around' per the University President's testimony.

Additionally, (per this article in the NYT), University Police had had a previous investigation regarding Sandusky in 1998:

ccording to prosecutors, the first serious chance Penn State had to halt the abuse came in 1998, when Sandusky was still an assistant for Paterno. A mother of an 11-year-old boy Sandusky had befriended at his charity reported to the Penn State campus police that her son had been touched and held by Sandusky in a shower inside the campus’s football facility.

Prosecutors said a “lengthy” investigation — one that grew to include allegations about a second young child being similarly touched by Sandusky in a shower — was carried out by the campus police. But they offer few details about the nature of that investigation: who was interviewed, whether Paterno or other university officials were apprised of it.

They do, though, say that at least two campus detectives took the case seriously and heard Sandusky admit to the misconduct in a conversation with the mother of one of the boys. Additionally, prosecutors said Sandusky was interviewed by one of the detectives and an investigator with the state’s child welfare agency. In that interview, they said, Sandusky admitted to showering with the boys and conceded that it “was wrong.”

According to prosecutors, a decision not to prosecute Sandusky was made by the county district attorney, who has since died.

I'm not going to crucify Paterno yet, but rather wait and see how this unfolds.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:40 pm

I live in Philadelphia, which is pretty fond of Penn State. People here feel shocked by the crime and betrayed by the school and Paterno football machine. They should have taken action as soon as there was a hint.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:49 pm

Inverarity wrote: Also, what about the moral obligation of the guy who actually witnessed the incident? Did he go to cops or did he drop it after he told Paterno? I can't seem to find any more detail about him.

Mike McQueary witnessed and reported an incident to Paterno. According to today's Atlanta Journal-Constitution article time line, he was later (weeks? I can't recall exactly) told by Paterno that Sandusky had his keys to the facilities taken away, and that Second Circle (or whatever it is called) was notified of the act. Fin.

No, McQueary was not made WR coach/Recruiting coordinator immediately thereafter. The PSU wiki page says McQueary was hired in 2003. He witnessed the incident in the spring of 2002. That isn't to say that there is any shadiness here, but there's a time gap, he had been a GA for awhile, and honestly there are bigger fish to fry. If he was promoted shadily it will get sorted in the end.

Did McQueary have moral obligations? Yes he did. As did JoePa. You might argue he has larger moral obligations given that he witnessed the act, but I don't much care about that. He told someone (the AJC?) that he was never contacted by campus police/authorities on the matter. Did he consider it closed? Hell if know. Should we be asking him? That and more questions besides.

Note again that Sandusky stayed with the charity organization until 2010. Someone there knew about it too. Who? Beats me.

Sarkus · Post by **Sarkus** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:18 pm

NYT and others are saying that the end is being negotiated and that Paterno's exit is a given. The question is whether he will get the rest of this season or not.

rshetts2 · Post by **rshetts2** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:22 pm

Since theres a lot to come out yet, (and in these types of situations information is held close to the vest) Im not quite ready to throw Paterno under the bus. There is certainly quite a lot about his knowledge and timing he needs to clear up. Even if he did what was legally required of him, it may turn out that he didnt do all he was morally obligated to do. He may not face legal action and still face public outrage and disgrace. I will say that if Paterno helped perpetuate this bastards "hobby" through inaction, in spite of being legally clear, the damage to his legacy and Penn States reputation will be irreparable. While that would be very unfortunate for the school and the program, actions like these must have consequences.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:46 pm