Neighborhood watch shooting in FL

[hepcat]

+1

I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss tangentially relevant topics in this thread.

[Rip]

Photos are what photos are. It isn't like people picked through a stack of recent Trayvon photos to find the most unappealing one they could. This is a picture HE chose to make public by using it for his twitter account and others well before this incident. Find another RECENT one not from years ago that we can use for him.

You need to reread what I wrote. My point was that those photos weren't indicative of a bad person. They're just being interpreted as such by people who's viewpoint you seem to share if you believe they are.

What exactly is Trayvon doing that's so menacing in those photos?

I agree I don't see the photos themselves as menacing.

I would however if forced to say which is more menacing pick that one over his years old photo. Simply because one is a boy and the other a young man.

[hepcat]

Why are you being asked to select a menacing photo of anyone involved in this incident?

[RunningMn9]

but he's the only eyewitness to the actual struggle - and you are ignoring that his testimony is corroborated by Zimmerman's injuries. If the witness said he saw Zimmerman underneath Martin being pounded but Zimmerman had no evidence of any injuries, yeah, maybe you'd be right. But Zimmerman does have such injuries and there were grass stains and wet grass on his back, all consistent with both Zimmerman's and the witness's stories.

I'm not ignoring that. I'm wondering why, in spite of that, the lead homicide investigator recommended a charge of manslaughter, and why he filed an affidavit indicating that he didn't find Zimmerman's account credible.

Presumably he is in a better position to analyze the quality of the testimony that we are, since we didn't talk to anyone that night.

Zimmerman having injuries aren't evidence of who started the physical confrontation. They are just evidence that he was losing it up until the point that he ended it by shooting the 17-year old kid and killing him.

Who started the physical confrontation (and why) is *far* more important here, and we don't know that.

[Rip]

Why are you being asked to select a menacing photo of anyone involved in this incident?

I don't know, why did you ask me if it was menacing?

[hepcat]

Because this post led me to believe you did.

[RunningMn9]

+1

I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss tangentially relevant topics in this thread.

I don't think that the issue is discussing tangentially related topics. From what I've seen during the time that this case has blown up is one side (almost entirely made up of conservatives) that want this to be about *anything* other than this kid getting killed under questionable circumstances. I still can't figure out why there are sides. Why are idiots like my brother characterizing this as a man attacking the Neighborhood Watch Captain, when he clearly isn't a man (he's a 17-year old kid). He knows that it's a 17-year old kid, and he intentionally misrepresented him as a man. Why? He couldn't wait to deflect the issue and make it about Al Sharpton being an ass like usual. He couldn't wait to tell me that the kid was suspended for beating up his bus driver (which as far as I can tell didnt actually happen).

The problem isn't talking about related topics because we don't know enough details. The problem is two sides inventing a set of details to match what they want, and I can't figure out why they want anything at all.

[Enough]

+1

I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss tangentially relevant topics in this thread.

I don't think that the issue is discussing tangentially related topics. From what I've seen during the time that this case has blown up is one side (almost entirely made up of conservatives) that want this to be about *anything* other than this kid getting killed under questionable circumstances. I still can't figure out why there are sides. Why are idiots like my brother characterizing this as a man attacking the Neighborhood Watch Captain, when he clearly isn't a man (he's a 17-year old kid). He knows that it's a 17-year old kid, and he intentionally misrepresented him as a man. Why? He couldn't wait to deflect the issue and make it about Al Sharpton being an ass like usual. He couldn't wait to tell me that the kid was suspended for beating up his bus driver (which as far as I can tell didnt actually happen).

The problem isn't talking about related topics because we don't know enough details. The problem is two sides inventing a set of details to match what they want, and I can't figure out why they want anything at all.

Nicely said.

[Grifman]

but he's the only eyewitness to the actual struggle - and you are ignoring that his testimony is corroborated by Zimmerman's injuries. If the witness said he saw Zimmerman underneath Martin being pounded but Zimmerman had no evidence of any injuries, yeah, maybe you'd be right. But Zimmerman does have such injuries and there were grass stains and wet grass on his back, all consistent with both Zimmerman's and the witness's stories.

I'm not ignoring that.

No offense, but I was responding to Kasey, not you See my original response.

Zimmerman having injuries aren't evidence of who started the physical confrontation.

And I never said they were. Again, I was merely responding to Kasey expressing doubts about what the only eyewitness to the actual struggle saw.

Who started the physical confrontation (and why) is *far* more important here, and we don't know that.

I agree, but what we do know is consistent with Zimmerman's claims of self defense.

[Rip]

Because this post led me to believe you did.

No, I was simply questioning your statement that someone dug up the photo for a unsavory purpose. I think you said ridiculous and reprehensible. They were dug up because there were people that knew the published photo didn't look much like him. What could possibly be ridiculous and reprehensible about a photo that looks more like him?

[Rip]

+1

I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss tangentially relevant topics in this thread.

I don't think that the issue is discussing tangentially related topics. From what I've seen during the time that this case has blown up is one side (almost entirely made up of conservatives) that want this to be about *anything* other than this kid getting killed under questionable circumstances. I still can't figure out why there are sides. Why are idiots like my brother characterizing this as a man attacking the Neighborhood Watch Captain, when he clearly isn't a man (he's a 17-year old kid). He knows that it's a 17-year old kid, and he intentionally misrepresented him as a man. Why? He couldn't wait to deflect the issue and make it about Al Sharpton being an ass like usual. He couldn't wait to tell me that the kid was suspended for beating up his bus driver (which as far as I can tell didnt actually happen).

The problem isn't talking about related topics because we don't know enough details. The problem is two sides inventing a set of details to match what they want, and I can't figure out why they want anything at all.

Sorry I don't refer to someone his age and size as kid. He is a young man and can drive and is mostly responsible for his actions. Your insistence on looking at him as equal to a 15 year old is no more right than his desire to seem him as an 18 year old.

[RuperT]

+1

I don't think it's unreasonable to discuss tangentially relevant topics in this thread.

I don't think that the issue is discussing tangentially related topics. From what I've seen during the time that this case has blown up is one side (almost entirely made up of conservatives) that want this to be about *anything* other than this kid getting killed under questionable circumstances. I still can't figure out why there are sides. Why are idiots like my brother characterizing this as a man attacking the Neighborhood Watch Captain, when he clearly isn't a man (he's a 17-year old kid). He knows that it's a 17-year old kid, and he intentionally misrepresented him as a man. Why? He couldn't wait to deflect the issue and make it about Al Sharpton being an ass like usual. He couldn't wait to tell me that the kid was suspended for beating up his bus driver (which as far as I can tell didnt actually happen).

The problem isn't talking about related topics because we don't know enough details. The problem is two sides inventing a set of details to match what they want, and I can't figure out why they want anything at all.

'Cuz metacognitive thinking is for losers.
Edited for excessively bitter irony

[RuperT]

Haha, then I started wondering if I'd correctly formatted the edit on the irony of my post on meta cognitive thinking... I had to reboot.

[hepcat]

Because this post led me to believe you did.

No, I was simply questioning your statement that someone dug up the photo for a unsavory purpose. I think you said ridiculous and reprehensible. They were dug up because there were people that knew the published photo didn't look much like him. What could possibly be ridiculous and reprehensible about a photo that looks more like him?

But they're being presented to the public with the not too subtle inference (and often times they directly state it) that he's a thug. That I consider ridiculous and reprehensible. These photos depict a kid that many adults would view as a criminal. You can see that evidenced during prime time on most tv network shows and in theaters when they need an easily identifiable villain.

There are more than a few recent photos of Trayvon hugging his dad or playing football for his school.

And to make this clear, I feel they vicimized Zimmerman in a like fashion using a mug shot for his initial news appearances.

He couldn't wait to deflect the issue and make it about Al Sharpton being an ass like usual.

I agree with everything you said but this. When I voice my disdain for Sharpton and Jackson, two people I consider opportunistic idiots who will turn this into pulpits for their own advancement, it isn't because I'm trying to downplay the severity of the situation. I'm one of those who believes Zimmerman may very well have been in the wrong here. I'm voicing my disdain for these "gentlemen" because I sincerely feel they do far more harm to race relations than they do good.

Russell Simmons tweeted what I thought was a wonderful admonishment to those who seek to use this as a divisive tool in race relations:

Trayvon Martin didn’t die so we can create a race war he died so we can promote better understanding. We must start honest dialogue.”

[Combustible Lemur]

I'm disappointed that you have not edited this post yet considering "accuracy" was the hallmark of your post and we now know that this photo of Trayvon is NOT of him. It turns out it was lifted from a neo-nazi website. Neato.

Is this more to your liking?

The current photo of zimmerman looks like a banker.

Destroyer of America, burn him down!

Also, this thread reads like "Twelve Angry Men".
sent from incredible'

[RunningMn9]

Grifman - I didn't mean that you were directing it at me. I was simply starting off by informing you that I wasn't doing that, in the context of what I was about to say.

And we know something else - the lead homicide investigator appears to find inconsistencies. Enough that he wanted him charged.

Rip - I refer to 17-year old kids as kids. I know lots of 17-year old kids in high school. None of them are men. None of them.

But that is beside the point. The point that I was making was that my brother intentionally referred to him as a man in order to make him more intimidating. Why did he do that? It wasn't for accuracy, because he's not a man, he's a 17-year old kid in high school. The change was intentional. Why?

Note that I'm not talking about you, and you don't know my brother well enough (or perhaps at all, although he's been banned from here multiple times) to answer that question.

But he did it to make Zimmerman's defense sound more legitimate. Before the facts were really established, why was that so important to him? And I don't think he's alone.

hepcat - my point wasn't that it wasn't ok to criticize Sharpton. I would expect *everyone* to criticize that jackass. My observation though is that some (including my brother) couldn't wait to make this only about Sharpton being a jack-hole, because it allowed it to stop being about a teenager gunned down under questionable circumstances.

Why do some people seem so concerned about making sure that it's NOT about that?

As for the Russell Simmons quote, I'm confused. Trayvon Martin died for nothing. Which is why people are upset.

[Grundbegriff]

Wheeeeeeee....

There's every reason to wait patiently for the investigation to play out and for the existing mechanisms of justice to run their course.

[hepcat]

I think what Russell is saying is not that Martin died in order to bring about a dialog on race, but that his death should be seen as a reason to do so. In other words, take a senseless death and find meaning within it.

[Captain Caveman]

Wheeeeeeee....

There's every reason to wait patiently for the investigation to play out and for the existing mechanisms of justice to run their course.

Whoa, this is going to get.... interesting.

link to accompanying article

[Mr. Fed]

Wheeeeeeee....

There's every reason to wait patiently for the investigation to play out and for the existing mechanisms of justice to run their course.

The Liberal Media photoshopped the head wounds to make them seem less serious.


At least this is first-hand evidence. I'm at the point where I'm not bothering to read second- and third-hand accounts. It's all too colored by the frenzy.

[Rip]

Grifman - I didn't mean that you were directing it at me. I was simply starting off by informing you that I wasn't doing that, in the context of what I was about to say.

And we know something else - the lead homicide investigator appears to find inconsistencies. Enough that he wanted him charged.

Rip - I refer to 17-year old kids as kids. I know lots of 17-year old kids in high school. None of them are men. None of them.

But that is beside the point. The point that I was making was that my brother intentionally referred to him as a man in order to make him more intimidating. Why did he do that? It wasn't for accuracy, because he's not a man, he's a 17-year old kid in high school. The change was intentional. Why?

Note that I'm not talking about you, and you don't know my brother well enough (or perhaps at all, although he's been banned from here multiple times) to answer that question.

But he did it to make Zimmerman's defense sound more legitimate. Before the facts were really established, why was that so important to him? And I don't think he's alone.

hepcat - my point wasn't that it wasn't ok to criticize Sharpton. I would expect *everyone* to criticize that jackass. My observation though is that some (including my brother) couldn't wait to make this only about Sharpton being a jack-hole, because it allowed it to stop being about a teenager gunned down under questionable circumstances.

Why do some people seem so concerned about making sure that it's NOT about that?

As for the Russell Simmons quote, I'm confused. Trayvon Martin died for nothing. Which is why people are upset.

Oh, that brother.

I know as much about him as I would ever want to.

Never mind.

[WYBaugh]

Wheeeeeeee....

There's every reason to wait patiently for the investigation to play out and for the existing mechanisms of justice to run their course.

What am I missing?

[hepcat]

A video shot the night of the attack at the police station after Zimmerman shot Martin. Zimmerman appears to have no wounds whatsoever...which means someone embellished their story or he's the Highlander.

[Grifman]

Grifman - I didn't mean that you were directing it at me. I was simply starting off by informing you that I wasn't doing that, in the context of what I was about to say.

Sorry, for a minute I thought you were an alt of Kasey

[GreenGoo]

Wheeeeeeee....

There's every reason to wait patiently for the investigation to play out and for the existing mechanisms of justice to run their course.

What am I missing?

Nothing that I can tell. I watched it twice, not looking for anything specific, although on the second watch I wanted to see where the jacket that was put in the trunk came from, simply because I missed it the first time.

Not much of interest, except officer A got something yucky on his hand that he tried to wipe off on his pants. I'm assuming it's blood, so I won't make light (moreso).

I didn't see any injuries, photoshopped or otherwise, but I wasn't looking for them.

[Holman]

What's missing in the debate over whether Han Shot First is the reason why this case resonates so strongly.

Lots of American blacks have a strong sense that racial profiling targets them for arrest/harassment and that punishments are more severe for blacks than for others. The Trayvon case plays into that sense of injustice because (at first anyway, muddier now) he seems like a perfect exemple of the pattern. The Right, meanwhile, has reacted with an equally committed narrative that sees all of this as just anti-gun hysteria, the liberal race-card, and coddling of criminal suspects.

Tapes could surface tomorrow that showed Zimmerman rescuing puppies Trayvon was setting on fire, or it could show Zimmerman lining up a shot on Trayvon while he helped an old lady cross the street, and it wouldn't change these narratives a bit. It would just frustrate them in new ways.

As a country, we're a long way from being able to have any sane dialogue about these issues. I don't know how we're going to get there.

[Zarathud]

Perhaps the suspect walking himself into the police station under the watch of vigilant officers?

We've watched local police act favorably to thin explanations of a former "neighborhood watch leader" who has been allowing his kids to deal drugs out of his house even after one of them was shot and killed by a rival gang.

Collection of public documents about the case.

This repeated observation in the initial police reports gives me concerns:

(Deceased) black male, wearing a gray hooded sweat shirt, laying face down in the grass....hands underneath his body

This whole "media bias" is overblown simply because it attempts to portray negligence in order to get content to report as a story as some vast conspiracy, and the complaints come an intentional repackaging of the facts by another news agency in order to satisfy the biases of their subscribers.

Intent matters, which is why I find Zimmerman patrolling the neighborhood with a pistol more offensive than anyone's unknown background or old photos. Zimmerman would have been more effective in his self-appointed watchdog role with the neighborhood watch if he had brought along video equipment or used the camera on his phone. While it may be legal in Florida to walk around with a concealed weapon, that is the thuggish and menacing behavior of a troll.

That doesn't mean Zimmerman should be lynched, but he should do some more explaining with the advice of an attorney.

[deadzone]

Well things just got more complicated didn't they?


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[GreenGoo]

Well things just got more complicated didn't they?

How so? I don't recall any reports saying he was taken to the hospital, which already means the injuries were not serious. We're still left with Zimmermann's account of how things transpired, which is all we've had for awhile now. It's not like he's going free because he had head injuries. He's going free because as far as we can tell he was defending himself. If he had listened to the 911 operator his head would probably have been safe and the teenager wouldn't have died, but that's not a crime either.

[deadzone]

There are a lot of Zimmerman defenders relying on his supposed injuries. Doesn't seem to be much truth to the injuries he said he got "defending" himself from Trayvon's vicious unprovoked attack.


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[Chrisoc13]

There are a lot of Zimmerman defenders relying on his supposed injuries. Doesn't seem to be much truth to the injuries he said he got "defending" himself from Trayvon's vicious unprovoked attack.


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To be fair at least in this forum I have not seen a lot of Zimmerman defenders but rather people saying let due process work. Let the facts come out and see what really happened. Actually that is what I have seen most places when people do not think "get him!" But I could be wrong.

The two "sides" that I have seen on this case are one side screaming for his arrest regardless of due process, and another side saying let the scene play out, find out what happened first.

[Victoria Raverna]

There are a lot of Zimmerman defenders relying on his supposed injuries. Doesn't seem to be much truth to the injuries he said he got "defending" himself from Trayvon's vicious unprovoked attack.


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To be fair at least in this forum I have not seen a lot of Zimmerman defenders but rather people saying let due process work. Let the facts come out and see what really happened. Actually that is what I have seen most places when people do not think "get him!" But I could be wrong.

The two "sides" that I have seen on this case are one side screaming for his arrest regardless of due process, and another side saying let the scene play out, find out what happened first.

I think that is unfair. To be fair, there are three "sides" here, you have people here that take Zimmerman account and police report as truth or try hard to find reason to support Zimmerman because Martin is a thug (based on one picture of the other Martin and the real picture of a black teenager showing his teeth). Then there is the one that screaming for Zimmerman arrest regardless of due process. And another side that hasn't made up their mind about it.

[Remus West]

There are a lot of Zimmerman defenders relying on his supposed injuries. Doesn't seem to be much truth to the injuries he said he got "defending" himself from Trayvon's vicious unprovoked attack.


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I hold the guy responsible for the death but that video doesn't mean much. They have said from the start that he received medical care on site before being put in the cruiser. The video was much to grainy and abc planted their "exclusive" tag right over his head anyway so I couldn't tell if there were any marks on his head. A nose bleed would have been pretty easy to clean up though unless it was an absolute gusher.

[noxiousdog]

There are a lot of Zimmerman defenders relying on his supposed injuries. Doesn't seem to be much truth to the injuries he said he got "defending" himself from Trayvon's vicious unprovoked attack.


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I hold the guy responsible for the death but that video doesn't mean much. They have said from the start that he received medical care on site before being put in the cruiser. The video was much to grainy and abc planted their "exclusive" tag right over his head anyway so I couldn't tell if there were any marks on his head. A nose bleed would have been pretty easy to clean up though unless it was an absolute gusher.

Also, at 55 seconds, a cop examines the back of his head. Certainly doesn't do anything to bolster his case though.

[Alefroth]

Well things just got more complicated didn't they?

How so? I don't recall any reports saying he was taken to the hospital, which already means the injuries were not serious. We're still left with Zimmermann's account of how things transpired, which is all we've had for awhile now. It's not like he's going free because he had head injuries. He's going free because as far as we can tell he was defending himself. If he had listened to the 911 operator his head would probably have been safe and the teenager wouldn't have died, but that's not a crime either.

Where did the reports of bloody nose and back of head, and grass stains on his back come from?

Seeing him in apparently uninjured form also diminishes the argument that he felt his life was in danger.

I don't see how you cannot see how this complicates things

Ale

[Chrisoc13]

I think that is unfair. To be fair, there are three "sides" here, you have people here that take Zimmerman account and police report as truth or try hard to find reason to support Zimmerman because Martin is a thug (based on one picture of the other Martin and the real picture of a black teenager showing his teeth). Then there is the one that screaming for Zimmerman arrest regardless of due process. And another side that hasn't made up their mind about it.

Yeah I was tired when I wrote that last night and now I am not sure why i put only two sides. You are correct, there seem to be three points of view on the issue.

[Jag]

Seeing him in apparently uninjured form also diminishes the argument that he felt his life was in danger.

I don't see how you cannot see how this complicates things

Ale

You can still feel your life is in danger even though no physical contact has been made. Plenty of SYG cases have been won just on the fear of imminent harm, like the case I linked earlier where a guy swung a bag of radios (no contact was made) and was stabbed to death.

[RunningMn9]

The two "sides" that I have seen on this case are one side screaming for his arrest regardless of due process, and another side saying let the scene play out, find out what happened first.

I can't speak for everyone, or about everyone. But in many cases, the "let's wait and see about the facts" is coming from people that are wholly inconsistent about which situations they choose to wait and see about the facts.

Choosing to wait and see about this, while rushing to judgement about other things eventually paints a picture that they aren't genuinely waiting to see the facts.

They are waiting to hopefully see a very specific set of facts.

That's not the same thing as just being cautious for the sake of the truth.

And of course their is also the side that instantaneously believed that Zimmerman is guilty of murder, despite that clearly being untrue (this seems more manslaughterish).

I guess I'm just tired of everything being viewed through this "us" vs "them" lens.

My dumbass brother has staked out his position, not because of any particular truth about it - but because he perceives that one outcome could possibly help liberals (in his mind), an therefore he clearly must adopt the other position. And I see that from a lot of people.

And the fact that Al Sharpton is an asshole doesn't make their behavior right.

[PLW]

I think there are a few different threads here and they all interact. But it's worth thinking about them individually.

1. Is the SYG law a good idea? We can learn very little about this question from one cherry-picked example. I know we like to think in stories, but we should probably actually use data to understand the trade-offs and then reevaluate the policy once we have a better (Empirical!) understanding of its consequences.

2. Is this guy getting away with murder because the police don't care about a black kid getting shot? Here, we care about the particulars of this given case, because it is a question of justice in this instance. I think as more information comes out about what the policy knew and when, we will have more insight into this question.

Obviously, it interacts with point 1., since the SYG law may in fact provide cover for biased police. But again, I think we can look beyond the particulars of this case to inform our answer to this question. Is there other evidence of racial bias in this policy dept? I think a previous poster way up thread provided examples of a history of misconduct in this department, but I don't recall any of it being particularly racial in nature.

3. Are the police incompetent? Similar to 2.

4. Is the outcome of this case being tampered with by (the media/Spike Lee/The Black Panthers)? I think the interesting part of this is each groups incentives to spin the story one way or another, either because it sells more newspapers or because it raises their national prominence.

[Chrisoc13]

I can't speak for everyone, or about everyone. But in many cases, the "let's wait and see about the facts" is coming from people that are wholly inconsistent about which situations they choose to wait and see about the facts.

Choosing to wait and see about this, while rushing to judgement about other things eventually paints a picture that they aren't genuinely waiting to see the facts.

They are waiting to hopefully see a very specific set of facts.

Can you give a specific example of what you are describing here? Something less anecdotal than your brother whom I have never met? Not meaning this as an attack but this is the second time you have stated this in this thread and I am wondering what specifically you are referring to.

Since I am in the "let the process play out" camp I find this comment rather interesting. I think it is best to normally wait and see with any case and let the process roll out.

Which camp do you find yourself in? I would hope everyone would want to be in the "wait and see" camp.