PEDs - Do you care?

[stessier]

This article at ESPN about WADA calling out the NBA's testing program got me thinking. I really don't care if PEDs are used in any sport after college. I think the pros are getting compensated and should do what they like to get paid. I really don't care if Lance doped, or McGuire, or Sosa, or any of them. I enjoy the performances as super human regardless.

What do you think?

For the poll, you can choose multiple options and can change your vote at any time.

[LordMortis]

I don't really care but I do think there should be an honesty about it, understanding how you got there.

And speaking as someone who wishes he was on steroids and would be willing to make the sacrifices to other facets of his long term health, I'd love to see a more open discussion about the subject in all regards. It's strange to me to see my body falling apart with the side effects of the cocktail of drugs they put me on, and then seeing that low doses of prednisone takes care of everything that ails me but that this is one side effects line they won't cross. It's also strange to me that we stigmatize the research into these drugs which have the potential to do crazy amounts of good things for your health if you can find ways to minimize or eliminate their side effects.

But of course, ultimately whatever you do, you have to keep in mind that you have to keep stuff regulated so kids can't buy stuff willie nillie with no understanding of what they're getting in to.

[geezer]

I suppose I'm "against" PEDs, but I'm not really sure why I should be from a competitive aspect. I have a hard time reconciling, say, lasik surgery, as perfectly fine but banning a performance enhancer that come in pill or injection form.

[Holman]

Sports ought to be about talent, effort, and spirit. PED's are a symptom of our obsession with breaking records and winning at all costs. They aren't the cause of it, but they fuel the mania, so they have no legitimate place.

I'm naive as hell, I know.

[LawBeefaroni]

I care for all sports. It's not about whether they are paid, it's about sportsmanship. I care when an illegal hit goes unpenalized in an NHL game, I care when a linesman doesn't get a flag for holding. I don't think we can keep it out of all sports but we should try.

And it's not about performance either, I don't care if an NHLer lifts weights all the time or if a baseball player goes to some sports therapist to get insane bat speed. It's about safety to everyone involved, the use of illegal substances, and all the shady underworld crap that goes along with it.

If we ever get to the point where there is a completely safe PED regimine and it becomes mainstream and transparent, then maybe. But right now PEDs don't have any place in true sport.

Right now, any player using PEDs in the major sports and athletics is cheating an lying. Traits I don't think we should just ignore and certainly not celebrate.

[LordMortis]

It's about safety to everyone involved, the use of illegal substances, and all the shady underworld crap that goes along with it.

Right now, any player using PEDs in the major sports and athletics is cheating an lying. Traits I don't think we should just ignore and certainly not celebrate.

That's my opinion as well, which ironically is why I support PEDs to an extent. That or maybe it's time to look into Red Bulls and Five hour energy's and Caffeine and legal steroid shots (which I do think it's time to look into, as is exemplified by Jeter's collapse last week). Keep it open, honest, and transparent for the safety of the athletes and more importantly for the safety of the stupid (children) fans who want emulate the athletes.

[stessier]

But of course, ultimately whatever you do, you have to keep in mind that you have to keep stuff regulated so kids can't buy stuff willie nillie with no understanding of what they're getting in to.

Yeah, I don't think kids/college kids should have access because we know even less about what it does to growing bodies than we know about what it does to adults.

I care for all sports. It's not about whether they are paid, it's about sportsmanship. I care when an illegal hit goes unpenalized in an NHL game, I care when a linesman doesn't get a flag for holding. I don't think we can keep it out of all sports but we should try.

...
Right now, any player using PEDs in the major sports and athletics is cheating an lying. Traits I don't think we should just ignore and certainly not celebrate.

Snipped out a bit there, but I think this is still the gist.

It really comes down to what sports is about. For me, pro sports is about entertainment. They are all liars and cheaters and the sports admit as much by having refs. If it were truly about sportsmanship and role models, we would expect players to call their own fouls. There's nothing noble or uplifting about the profession - it's just another job that someone has made sacrifices to get good at.

At least for me.

[LawBeefaroni]

They are all liars and cheaters and the sports admit as much by having refs. If it were truly about sportsmanship and role models, we would expect players to call their own fouls.

That's not true. Refs don't only call fouls, they make judgement calls. Calls that players, even honest ones, can't be expected to make impartially. And that many players, when they're involved in a play, can't concentrate on. Who is better equipped to call a play at the plate where the runner bowls over the catcher in a cloud of dust? The runner, the catcher, or an ump?

Pro football has unsportsmanlike conduct. For every time that call is made, there are dozens of procedural penalties that get called. Those aren't cheating, those are mistakes. For ever corked bat or emery board in baseball there are tens of thousands of balls and strikes and outs called by ups.


Besides, the presence of refs doesn't mean all players are cheats and liars anymore than the presence of police police means all civilians are murderers and thieves.

[Exodor]

I care for all sports except the NHL because I really don't care at all about hockey.

[coopasonic]

For ever corked bat or emery board in baseball there are tens of thousands of balls and strikes and outs called by ups.

Balls are pitchers cheating!

[PLW]

I have a problem with PEDs that we know to have long-term negative consequences for the athletes. They should be banned since a race to the top would encourage all athletes to take them even though they would all be better of if none of them did.

As for less-risky PEDs, why not? It seems pretty much exactly like training, performance-focus diet, and all other sorts of performance-focused lifestyle choices.

[Crux]

I care for a few reasons. I think Lawbeef summarized some of it very succinctly above. The second aspect to me is safety.

1) If we make it legal for the pros, a lot of younger people *will* take them that would not have otherwise. There is nowhere near the level of drug testing at the youth/development level that occurs in the pros. A lot of kids will do it, and a lot of them will get away with it. The damage it can potentially do to their growing bodies is severe.

2) Those kids who don't... say you're a college football player. You train hard, get drafted, get to the pros. Now you're a 23 year old man *without* a history of PEDs competing with 27, 28, 30 year old guys who have been juicing for years. They will be significantly bigger, stronger and more explosive than you. Your ability to get hurt is huge. You'll see a big increase in training injuries - either as a direct result of people not completely juiced competing against those who are, or younger guys pushing themselves too hard in the weight room etc to try to play catchup.

[Scuzz]

This article at ESPN about WADA calling out the NBA's testing program got me thinking. I really don't care if PEDs are used in any sport after college. I think the pros are getting compensated and should do what they like to get paid. I really don't care if Lance doped, or McGuire, or Sosa, or any of them. I enjoy the performances as super human regardless.

What do you think?

For the poll, you can choose multiple options and can change your vote at any time.

I think it is a travesty that a kid can play college/amatuer sports clean at the highest levels and then be expected/required to use PED's to be a pro. Pro sports were no less entertaining when all they used was caffeine and amphetimens (sp) and I would imagine the long term health risks were much less.

It would be hard to raise your kid to play sports knowing that in order to get to a high level he would eventually have to use PED's.

[noxiousdog]

2) Those kids who don't... say you're a college football player. You train hard, get drafted, get to the pros. Now you're a 23 year old man *without* a history of PEDs competing with 27, 28, 30 year old guys who have been juicing for years. They will be significantly bigger, stronger and more explosive than you. Your ability to get hurt is huge. You'll see a big increase in training injuries - either as a direct result of people not completely juiced competing against those who are, or younger guys pushing themselves too hard in the weight room etc to try to play catchup.

This is the important part. It's a workplace health issue. We've decided people shouldn't be asked to put their health (further) at risk due to a necessary work environment.

If we want to open that kind of dangerous environment to all jobs, fine, but currently we're moving farther and farther away from allowing employers to encourage damaging workplaces. Allowing PEDs is encouraging a dangerous workplace.

[gameoverman]

I mostly watch the NFL, so my view is based on that. I'm supposed to believe that people have just gotten bigger in the last 30 years or so? Once upon a time, the Refrigerator got a lot of attention because hey, a 300lb+ player! Now, what teams don't have 300lb players(plural)? These guys aren't just big, they can run and jump and play entire games. That happened naturally?

So that ship has sailed in my opinion. To make a big deal of it now, after all these years, is puzzling. To bring "think of the kids" into it is even more weird. Must everything be decided according to how it might affect someone's kids?

I'd be more in favor of ending the sport entirely, for the benefit of EVERYONE'S health(kid to adult), than try to chase down every last possible player who is gaming the system, just so we can say it's 'fair'.

[Pyperkub]

First off IT ISN'T SAFE. There are the known effects for Anabolic Steroids

AS may exert a profound adverse effect on the liver... In addition, intra hepatic cholestasis, reflected by itch and jaundice, and hepatic peliosis were observed. Hepatic peliosis is a hemorrhagic cystic degeneration of the liver, which may lead to fibrosis and portal hypertension. Rupture of a cyst may lead to fatal bleeding.

Benign (adenoma's) and malign tumors (hepatocellular carcinoma) have been reported...

...When anabolic steroids are administered in growing children side effects include virilization, gynecomastia, and premature closure of the epiphysis, resulting in cessation of longitudinal growth...

...There are reports of violent, criminal behavior in individuals taking AS. Other side effects of AS are euphoria, confusion, sleeping disorders, pathological anxiety, paranoia, and hallucinations....

...Anabolic steroid users may become dependent on the drug, with symptoms of withdrawal after cessation of drug use. The withdrawal symptoms consist of aggressive and violent behavior, mental depression with suicidal behavior, mood changes, and in some cases acute psychosis.

and so on. So, Anabolic steroids are not safe, and yet you are advocating that they should be a condition of employment. Hmm. Ok, maybe steroids are out, let's look at #2 - HGH

There are less known side effects for HGH (articles linked indicate more testing needs to be done, but they include changes to Pancreatic function and insulin production changes.

So, less known health problems but still - there is no way that they (PED's) should be allowed in any sport, as it unbalances the competition for those who don't think it is wise to harm their body as condition of their employment, or even competition.

Have you seen the age of the Chinese Gymnasts? Some have been reported to not even be in their teens - but they would probably have these decisions made for them.

I do think that there could be something like experimental areas/leagues for this, where the drugs are tightly regulated and measured for research, as I do think there is the potential for serious long-term health gains out of some of these drugs, but in terms of real competition for money. no.

[dbt1949]

Athletes who use PEDs entertain me more.

[JSHAW]

I have an opinion on it. Those that do PED's are only hurting themselves, and the sports they play. It messes with the integrity of the sport.

If they break the rules and get caught, what did they expect would be the end result? Break the rules and get away with it? Two people can keep a secret when one of them is dead.

They are adults. It's their decision. When they get busted and lose their contracts, sponsors, and have their awards and title's revoked and stripped, too fucking bad. Boo fucking hoo. You made that decision, now you reap the whirlwind.

I watch sports, I'm not a hardcore fan of any particular sport or team, but I do generally know what team's hot, and what team's not.

I think the use of PED's by athlete's who are chasing a record, like most homeruns hit, most consecutive whatever, it put's those records under
a cloud or suspicion and controversy WHEN the athlete is accused of using PED's during the chase of those records, and after the record is broken.
See Mark McGuire, Barry Bonds, Lance Armstong...

I understand why the sports purist would go against the use of PED's, it's not good for the sports, it's not good period. You don't even have to be a sports purist, but just a person who believes in right and wrong. If it's illegal, it's wrong. PERIOD.

Like anything in life that has a law against it, you're always gonna have a percentage of people that are gonna break the law, push the envelope
to get what they feel is an edge on everyone else. So they institute drug testing policies. And the lawbreakers decide to find ways in avoiding detection.
It ends when they get caught.

IF there were a line of LEGAL, and SAFE PED's, and they opened them up for NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, and it's a level playing field for all that want to
use them, I'm ok with that. I don't see that ever happening.

The thing that always enters into the discussion is this. Athlete uses PED's. He still has to perform. He still has to HIT the homerun. He still has to run for
1000+ yards in a season. He still has to shoot and score 50+ points in a game and get a triple double too. If every athlete had the same skills you'd see huge amounts of people performing incredible feats of athletic prowess more than we currently are now, and in the past. You have athletes that don't have the same abilities, WITH and WITHOUT the PED's. Not every guy that uses PED's is gonna hit "X" amount of homeruns, or win the Tour De France.

In 2012 I think the athletes of the big 4 sports in the US, they know the risks of PED's, and for the majority of them the risks are too great to
risk doing them. Get caught, lose your job and paycheck, get banned from the sport of life.

The thing that annoys me about the Lance Armstrong situation is this. During the entire history of him winning all the Tour De France titles, they couldn't catch this guy in an illegal act? It's only AFTER he leaves the sport that all the evidence comes to light and they drop the boomstick on him? The agency that governs their sport must really SUCK at doing their job if they can't catch someone doping during the actual time they ARE doping.

I do think one thing has happened with Lance Armstrong that has brought more people out of the woodworks against him. He pissed off too many former friends and burned too many bridges with those former friends and team members. He made promises to people that he didn't keep and when that happens it's only a matter of time before those people bring out the axes to grind. Poetic Justice

[Blackhawk]

What about the example these guys are setting to the k-12 kids who, for whatever reason, see sports stars as heroes worthy of emulation?

[noxiousdog]

What about the example these guys are setting to the k-12 kids who, for whatever reason, see sports stars as heroes worthy of emulation?

We make plenty of distinction about substances and behaviors that adults can participate in and children cannot.

[Blackhawk]

What about the example these guys are setting to the k-12 kids who, for whatever reason, see sports stars as heroes worthy of emulation?

We make plenty of distinction about substances and behaviors that adults can participate in and children cannot.

Yes, but those substances are generally distinguished as being something bad and/or harmful as a tradeoff to a bit of satisfaction. This is advocating something portrayed as being beneficial. If you want to be a winner, take pills.

[noxiousdog]

What about the example these guys are setting to the k-12 kids who, for whatever reason, see sports stars as heroes worthy of emulation?

We make plenty of distinction about substances and behaviors that adults can participate in and children cannot.

Yes, but those substances are generally distinguished as being something bad and/or harmful as a tradeoff to a bit of satisfaction. This is advocating something portrayed as being beneficial. If you want to be a winner, take pills.

And alcohol and gambling isn't? Be the life of the party! Have beautiful girls!

Signed,
The Most Interesting Man in the World.

[gameoverman]

What about the example these guys are setting to the k-12 kids who, for whatever reason, see sports stars as heroes worthy of emulation?

A kid can't participate in an elective sport without parental approval. If in the parent's judgment participation in that sport would harm that kid's health or well being, the parent can say no. This is completely separate from whatever adults may be doing professionally.


Armstrong won for the first time in 1999 right? So here we are 13 years later and now they say they are finding cheating. So applying this sort of thing to football, are we to say that last year's SB champs have to wait another 10 or 15 years before everyone says "Yeah, okay, they won"?

I think when you compete, that's when you meet the rules and requirements and that's when they test you and otherwise look for cheating. If you pass, that's it, you won, end of story. Changing the tests and/or rules a decade later(or more) is not in any way fair.

I think the goal of these new testing regimens is unrealistic. Does anyone really think it's ever going to be an all natural NFL? All that will happen is some players will get caught and weeded out, but not all. So there will always be that 'did he use PEDs or didn't he' attached to anyone especially successful. It's probably a lot more realistic to allow the use of certain PEDs, so that no one is kidding themselves that any athlete is a 'natural'.

[Blackhawk]

What about the example these guys are setting to the k-12 kids who, for whatever reason, see sports stars as heroes worthy of emulation?

A kid can't participate in an elective sport without parental approval. If in the parent's judgment participation in that sport would harm that kid's health or well being, the parent can say no. This is completely separate from whatever adults may be doing professionally.

Yeah, in our society, that'll happen. I just have issue with creating a situation where the single most common group of role models officially adopts that policy that drugs are not only a good choice, but are necessary to be a winner.

[stessier]

Rather than go through and answer a bunch of quotes resulting in a tl;dr, a few arguments I see and comments -

• PEDs aren't safe.
  • I personally feel the jury is still out on that one in terms of how much damage they actually do and whether or not a guy making millions for a few years should be able to take that risk. Be that as it may, how do you rationalize the use of cortisone and other shots with this stance? These drugs deteriorate joints and allow people to play when they shouldn't even be able to walk putting them at immense risk of injury. They are perfectly legal, however. Why?
• It puts statistical records under a cloud.
  • I don't really care about records, so this one doesn't even faze me. But if you did want to argue it, you can just call this the steroid era. Every era is different - dead ball era in baseball, the time in hockey before goalies looked like Stay Puff Marshmellow men, etc - and comparing these eras is suspect at best.
• But it's ILLEGAL!
  • Remind me to cross check the responses with the marijuana legalization thread. I'm not saying if they are caught today they shouldn't be punished. I'm saying they should be legalized for this purpose.
• It makes it an uneven playing field.
  • I don't know. We know the marketplace of picking players is not perfect today and I'm not sure how it would change if they were legal. I'm not sure everyone would take them. I suspect some players would just be good enough to play with out them for some period of time. I suspect some would use them to just barely get into the league and that you'd never believe they were on them. I also think it would make some average players into super stars. Pretty much just like today - only we without all the skullduggery.
• Think of the CHILDREN!!
  • A lot of kids are already taking them. A lot of kids drink. A lot of kids do drugs. I have trouble believing bringing it out of the darkness and being able to educate people about the risks is going to make things worse than they already are.

Any other biggies I missed?

[Blackhawk]

[*]Think of the CHILDREN!!

• A lot of kids are already taking them. A lot of kids drink. A lot of kids do drugs. I have trouble believing bringing it out of the darkness and being able to educate people about the risks is going to make things worse than they already are.

Again, that isn't at all my concern. We don't have AAA sports stars getting wasted on the field and attributing their success to it. Hell, every time a sports star puts on a new pair of shoes, every single kid (and many adults) out there must have them. People with that kind of influence saying that 'drugs to win' is a good idea is a horrible idea.

[noxiousdog]

Hell, every time a sports star puts on a new pair of shoes, every single kid (and many adults) out there must have them.

Seriously? That's your theory?

And what about drinking and gambling and the associated positive aura there?

[Blackhawk]

Hell, every time a sports star puts on a new pair of shoes, every single kid (and many adults) out there must have them.

Seriously? That's your theory?


And what about drinking and gambling and the associated positive aura there?

No, that's an example.

The difference is between a 'positive aura' of fun with risk vs. one 'this is what you need to do to be a man'. I don't think it needs to be legislated, but I think the involved parties need to act responsibly.

[Jeff V]

I have a problem with PEDs that we know to have long-term negative consequences for the athletes. They should be banned since a race to the top would encourage all athletes to take them even though they would all be better of if none of them did.

As for less-risky PEDs, why not? It seems pretty much exactly like training, performance-focus diet, and all other sorts of performance-focused lifestyle choices.

This, first and foremost. Sports heroes of my youth are dropping like flies, as well as those who are in the same age group. I really want them to live to old age, and have it not suck for them.

The late Stephen J. Gould wrote a book called "Full House" that is predominantly about sports performance records. Among the interesting points he makes in the book is how MLB players can keep getting better; but at the same time, the most iconic record, a ,400 batting average, becomes increasingly less likely to ever happen. Another point he makes is that there is a physical limit to what the human body can achieve, and records will be incrementally minute as this limit is approached. PEDs change this by altering what a human body is able to accomplish through more natural means.

FWIW, I highly recommend this book to any sports fan who also loves the numbers (are there any other kind?) There be math within its pages, but it is well explained and easy to follow.

Coming back from cancer to compete professionally made Lance Armstrong a hero. He didn't need to win, he just needed to be in that rarefied group of competitors. Shortly after, I recall him having a very unimpressive finish in the Olympics, yet he was the talk of thbe games. Kind of like the one-legged South African runner (my current hero until it's found he's been doping). The story of his comeback was awesome as it was...nobody expected him to be the best in the world. While I wanted to believe his TDF run was an incredible triumph for the ages, in a sport so rampant with cheating, his gaudy numbers were kind of hard to believe.

New sporting records these days should be narrow-margin affairs. McGuire and Sosa blasting past Roger Maris' record in the same season was just ridiculous. Bonds then made it a complete joke. With the crackdown on PEDs in MLB, how many generations are going to be denied the excitement of a record-setting home-run hitter? Ruth hit 60 in 1927, and Maris hit 61 in 1961. That is 34 years to increment the record by just 1. Bonds PED record (but still the official record) is 73. That's 12 more than Maris -- 12 x 34 years means it's potentially more than 400 years until a MLB player, without chemical enhancement, can set a new record. I predict baseball will die completely before then (and this will be one of the unsung reasons).

[Isgrimnur]

Okay, since no one else is going to do it, I'll bring up the meningitis outbreak:

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has increased the tally of cases to 271 -- 268 cases of fungal meningitis and three cases of joint infections. The growing outbreak, which spans 16 states, has been linked to contaminated vials of methylprednisolone acetate, an injectable steroid used to treat back and joint pain.

Sealed vials of the steroid, made by the New England Compounding Center in Framingham, Mass., contained Exserohilum rostratum, a fungus found in soil and plants. It's unclear how the fungus landed in the sealed vials.

And this is from a supposed compounding pharmacy that's supposed to be regulated and following rules. If you're getting stuff on the black market, there's no telling what quality control you're getting.

[Smoove_B]

Okay, since no one else is going to do it, I'll bring up the meningitis outbreak

...and today there were 14 arrests related to the above referenced outbreak.

So to be clear - if you're a banker and you knowingly engaged in financial fraud in the last decade with credit default swaps? Nothing. Own and/or work for a vaccine compounding facility involved in a meningitis outbreak? You're going to jail.

[LawBeefaroni]

Nice thread necro:

Kind of like the one-legged South African runner (my current hero until it's found he's been doping).

Oof.

[Smoove_B]

Awkward. Or maybe he's trying to tell us something...

Anyway, I thought we had a discussion about the compounding facility / meningitis outbreak, but this was the only thing I could find where it was mentioned. I figured the 2 people that cared, deserved an update.

[Rip]

Nice thread necro:

Kind of like the one-legged South African runner (my current hero until it's found he's been doping).

Oof.

I don't think anyone has shown he has ever doped, so I guess I can assume he is still Jeff's hero?

[Jeff V]

Nice thread necro:

Kind of like the one-legged South African runner (my current hero until it's found he's been doping).

Oof.

I don't think anyone has shown he has ever doped, so I guess I can assume he is still Jeff's hero?

At the time, I admittedly didn't see the murder thing coming.

[Rip]

Nice thread necro:

Kind of like the one-legged South African runner (my current hero until it's found he's been doping).

Oof.

I don't think anyone has shown he has ever doped, so I guess I can assume he is still Jeff's hero?

At the time, I admittedly didn't see the murder thing coming.

Heck, I was trying to figure out when he grew another leg.

[Isgrimnur]

Anyway, I thought we had a discussion about the compounding facility / meningitis outbreak, but this was the only thing I could find where it was mentioned. I figured the 2 people that cared, deserved an update.

Thanks for the follow up. It'll be interesting to see what the full docket of charges is.

[stessier]

Nice thread necro:

Kind of like the one-legged South African runner (my current hero until it's found he's been doping).

Oof.

I don't think anyone has shown he has ever doped, so I guess I can assume he is still Jeff's hero?

At the time, I admittedly didn't see the murder thing coming.

They never do. They never do...

[Isgrimnur]

That's a high bar

The owners and senior officers of a Massachusetts pharmacy that distributed contaminated drugs that killed 64 people have been arrested and two were charged with second degree murder.
...
They also instructed staff to make up fake names and prescriptions to make it look as if the operation was a small-time compounding pharmacy, making up drugs to individual order, rather than the large-scale manufacturing operation that it actually was.

The products sent all over the country by NECC made more than 700 people very ill in 2012 and killed 64 of them from a hard-to-treat fungal infection of the spinal cord. They'd been sold as especially safe and carefully formulated steroid injections for pain. What they actually were, federal officials say, were carelessly prepared and unsanitary bottles filled with mold and bacteria.

In total, 14 people were charged in the indictment. Cadden and supervisory pharmacist Glenn Chin were charged with murder. Twelve others were charged with racketeering, mail fraud, conspiracy and other crimes.

[LawBeefaroni]

Yeah, I'd say this is sounds pretty bad and the arrests seem very appropriate.