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School shooting (elementary) in CT

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by msduncan » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:28 am

Westboro Baptist Church is planning to picket at the funerals of the victims:

FUCK THEM

A quote that one of them sent out via twitter:
Shirley Phelps-Roper @DearShirley 14h
Westboro will picket Sandy Hook Elementary School to sing praise to God for the glory of his work in executing his judgment.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by silverjon » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:30 am

Of course they are.

And that's how they want you to react.
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

Unless one loses a precious thing, he will never know its true value. A little light finally scratches the darkness; it lets the exhausted one face his shattered dream and realize his path cannot be walked. Can man live happily without embracing his wounded heart?

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by msduncan » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:33 am

silverjon wrote:Of course they are.

And that's how they want you to react.
Normally I ignore them, but I can only imagine how the parents and family of these kids will feel when they have to ride past all of their hurtful signs on the way to bury their babies.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by silverjon » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:48 am

Probably as awful as the family of anyone else those attention-whoring parasites have ever targeted?
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

Unless one loses a precious thing, he will never know its true value. A little light finally scratches the darkness; it lets the exhausted one face his shattered dream and realize his path cannot be walked. Can man live happily without embracing his wounded heart?

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Zekester » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:51 am

waste of time even acknowledging anything they do.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Blackhawk » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:53 am

I wonder if this is the time that they'll piss someone off enough to do something violent in response (not endorsing that idea - just something I keep expecting to see happen.)
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Carpet_pissr » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:04 am

I'm sure they are expecting that as well, and would probably welcome it.


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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Alan_Bernardo » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:21 am

Blackhawk wrote:
Odin wrote: Sadly, I think it's human nature to watch tragedies like this with rapt attention.
It is, but I don't think it is sad. We are fragile creatures living fragile lives. Tragedy, death and destruction fascinate us because we are all subject to them, yet unable to truly comprehend them. We have the psychological need to understand them, but cannot unless it happening to us (and often not even then.) It is both natural and reasonable for us to be drawn to such things in an attempt (even if it is subconscious) to understand ourselves and our own existence.

Now, the media using that natural need to sell sensationalism is sad.
Television (media) thinks everyone is an idiot. I mean, you'd be surprised at how many people think that what they see on television is actually true and not simply a staged event (outside of factual news). I've asked many people if they thought these so-called reality shows were true, and almost everyone thought that they were. I think I was 16 when I quit watching television and the news. I typically get my news from the radio and print media.

Anyhow, all this media saturation of this terrible event can do nothing but harm and as an American, I find it embarrassing. Figure out yourself how to deal with these types of tragedies, because the longer you let someone else figure it out for you (as if we were all the same) the worse it will be the next time.


Alan

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Pyperkub » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:57 pm

I've seen stories that say the killer was wearing "a military vest". Does anyone know what that means? An early report said it was bulletproof, but I haven't seen anything to that effect since. My guess is that it was not a protective vest but more military utilitarian. Is that about right?

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Pyperkub » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:15 pm

msduncan wrote:Westboro Baptist Church is planning to picket at the funerals of the victims:

FUCK THEM

A quote that one of them sent out via twitter:
Shirley Phelps-Roper @DearShirley 14h
Westboro will picket Sandy Hook Elementary School to sing praise to God for the glory of his work in executing his judgment.

Apparently Anonymous has doxxed Westboro Baptist and published their personal information (so people can picket them?)...

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by msduncan » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:19 pm

Pyperkub wrote:I've seen stories that say the killer was wearing "a military vest". Does anyone know what that means? An early report said it was bulletproof, but I haven't seen anything to that effect since. My guess is that it was not a protective vest but more military utilitarian. Is that about right?

tapatalkin'
Not sure. There has been a ton of conflicting info in this one. I saw a story yesterday and specifically said he only took hand guns into the school with him and left the high powered rifle in the car. Then today I read a story that says all of the shootings were done with a high powered rifle.

Also today I read that his mother was killed at the house, this is in direct conflict with the reports that he went to the school and killed his mother and her class.

VERY unreliable and confusing reports out there.
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It's 15 National Championships.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by msduncan » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:19 pm

Pyperkub wrote:
msduncan wrote:Westboro Baptist Church is planning to picket at the funerals of the victims:

FUCK THEM

A quote that one of them sent out via twitter:
Shirley Phelps-Roper @DearShirley 14h
Westboro will picket Sandy Hook Elementary School to sing praise to God for the glory of his work in executing his judgment.

Apparently Anonymous has doxxed Westboro Baptist and published their personal information (so people can picket them?)...

tapatalkin'
Awesome
It's 109 first team All-Americans.
It's a college football record 61 bowl appearances.
It's 34 bowl victories.
It's 24 Southeastern Conference Championships.
It's 15 National Championships.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Blackhawk » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:36 pm

Well, a standard Bushmaster .223 magazine holds 20 rounds. A high capacity mag is 30. Official reports are 'hundreds of rounds' being fired, and that nearly everything came from the rifle, so, at the very least 6-10 magazines (it didn't go on long enough for him to be manually reloading.) To me, that suggests a tactical vest rather than body armor (assuming he wasn't wearing both.)
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Pyperkub » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:58 pm

Here's the link:
Hacktivist group Anonymous published the personal information of members of the Westboro Baptist Church after the group announced on Saturday it would picket Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut where 26 children and adults were killed.

Anonymous published private email addresses, phone numbers and home addresses of various members, and teased the group about the hack on Twitter. Anonymous also posted a video condemning the group for "breeding hatred" and adding, "We will destroy you. We are coming.”
There are also 55k signatures on the White house petition so far to recognize Westboro Baptist as a Hate Group (which would kill their tax-exempt status, at least...).
There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by FishPants » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:16 pm

Pyperkub wrote:Here's the link:
Hacktivist group Anonymous published the personal information of members of the Westboro Baptist Church after the group announced on Saturday it would picket Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut where 26 children and adults were killed.

Anonymous published private email addresses, phone numbers and home addresses of various members, and teased the group about the hack on Twitter. Anonymous also posted a video condemning the group for "breeding hatred" and adding, "We will destroy you. We are coming.”
There are also 55k signatures on the White house petition so far to recognize Westboro Baptist as a Hate Group (which would kill their tax-exempt status, at least...).
This makes me happy. They deserve what's coming to them.
No.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Jag » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:44 pm

Pyperkub wrote:Here's the link:
Hacktivist group Anonymous published the personal information of members of the Westboro Baptist Church after the group announced on Saturday it would picket Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut where 26 children and adults were killed.

Anonymous published private email addresses, phone numbers and home addresses of various members, and teased the group about the hack on Twitter. Anonymous also posted a video condemning the group for "breeding hatred" and adding, "We will destroy you. We are coming.”
There are also 55k signatures on the White house petition so far to recognize Westboro Baptist as a Hate Group (which would kill their tax-exempt status, at least...).
More importantly, here's the link to the petition.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by rshetts2 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:50 pm

Thanks for the link. The Westboro Baptist group need to be brought down. Their hate and intolerance knows no bounds but to add to the pain of the families in Connecticut, is beyond inhumane. Ive heard people say bringing down Westboro will just make them martyrs, well so be it. Lets make them martyrs.
Well do you ever get the feeling that the story's too damn real and in the present tense?
Or that everybody's on the stage and it seems like you're the only person sitting in the audience?

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Odin » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:51 pm

Jag wrote:
Pyperkub wrote:Here's the link:
Hacktivist group Anonymous published the personal information of members of the Westboro Baptist Church after the group announced on Saturday it would picket Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut where 26 children and adults were killed.

Anonymous published private email addresses, phone numbers and home addresses of various members, and teased the group about the hack on Twitter. Anonymous also posted a video condemning the group for "breeding hatred" and adding, "We will destroy you. We are coming.”
There are also 55k signatures on the White house petition so far to recognize Westboro Baptist as a Hate Group (which would kill their tax-exempt status, at least...).
More importantly, here's the link to the petition.
Is that the same petition? Because it only seems to have about 14k signatures, rather than 55k.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Jag » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:56 pm

Odin wrote:
Jag wrote:
Pyperkub wrote:Here's the link:
Hacktivist group Anonymous published the personal information of members of the Westboro Baptist Church after the group announced on Saturday it would picket Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut where 26 children and adults were killed.

Anonymous published private email addresses, phone numbers and home addresses of various members, and teased the group about the hack on Twitter. Anonymous also posted a video condemning the group for "breeding hatred" and adding, "We will destroy you. We are coming.”
There are also 55k signatures on the White house petition so far to recognize Westboro Baptist as a Hate Group (which would kill their tax-exempt status, at least...).
More importantly, here's the link to the petition.
Is that the same petition? Because it only seems to have about 14k signatures, rather than 55k.
Not sure. It was the one linked in that article.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Blackhawk » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:02 pm

rshetts2 wrote:Ive heard people say bringing down Westboro will just make them martyrs, well so be it. Lets make them martyrs.
Martyrdom requires followers. All of Westboro's followers are in Westboro.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by rshetts2 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:12 pm

Blackhawk wrote:
rshetts2 wrote:Ive heard people say bringing down Westboro will just make them martyrs, well so be it. Lets make them martyrs.
Martyrdom requires followers. All of Westboro's followers are in Westboro.
They will be considered martyrs by other hate groups and extremists. And as Jean Luc Picard says, Make it so!
Well do you ever get the feeling that the story's too damn real and in the present tense?
Or that everybody's on the stage and it seems like you're the only person sitting in the audience?

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Odin » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:46 pm

We shouldn't murder the WBC idiots for the idiotic, selfish, money-grubbing things they say because it's wrong. It's not how we operate in the US. We're civilized people, not a pack of vigilante assassins. If every cause they picketed raised tons of money for whomever they were picketing, that would be much sweeter and more just.

None of which isn't to say that I wouldn't probably, briefly, enjoy the opportunity to plug one of them in the head with a large-caliber projectile, but I'd feel awful about it afterwards and I'd know it was wrong.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Pyperkub » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:03 pm

Odin wrote:
Jag wrote:
Pyperkub wrote:Here's the link:
Hacktivist group Anonymous published the personal information of members of the Westboro Baptist Church after the group announced on Saturday it would picket Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut where 26 children and adults were killed.

Anonymous published private email addresses, phone numbers and home addresses of various members, and teased the group about the hack on Twitter. Anonymous also posted a video condemning the group for "breeding hatred" and adding, "We will destroy you. We are coming.”
There are also 55k signatures on the White house petition so far to recognize Westboro Baptist as a Hate Group (which would kill their tax-exempt status, at least...).
More importantly, here's the link to the petition.
Is that the same petition? Because it only seems to have about 14k signatures, rather than 55k.
Will have to double check. I saw one linked that had 55k, but it may have been from another article. Note that I only believe that they should be publicly held accountable for their hate speech with more speech as a result of this doxxing, as Fed would say.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Blackhawk » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:09 pm

I do want to make sure that nobody thinks I'm advocating a violent response to them. Expecting one eventually, yes, but not advocating or supporting.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by rshetts2 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:28 pm

Odin wrote:We shouldn't murder the WBC idiots for the idiotic, selfish, money-grubbing things they say because it's wrong. It's not how we operate in the US. We're civilized people, not a pack of vigilante assassins. If every cause they picketed raised tons of money for whomever they were picketing, that would be much sweeter and more just.

None of which isn't to say that I wouldn't probably, briefly, enjoy the opportunity to plug one of them in the head with a large-caliber projectile, but I'd feel awful about it afterwards and I'd know it was wrong.
If thats in reference to my comments regarding martyrdom, please understand I am not advocating vigilante justice. I am referring to ending the Westboro Baptist Church group, as a functioning organization. Removing their tax exempt status would certainly send a message. The martyrdom I am seeking is not directed towards individuals but towards an organization that continues to appall the majority of US citizens aware of their activities.
Well do you ever get the feeling that the story's too damn real and in the present tense?
Or that everybody's on the stage and it seems like you're the only person sitting in the audience?

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Blackhawk » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:40 pm

Ha-ha. I disclaimed before you disclaimed.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Skinypupy » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:10 pm

Pyperkub wrote:
Odin wrote:
Jag wrote:
Pyperkub wrote:Here's the link:
Hacktivist group Anonymous published the personal information of members of the Westboro Baptist Church after the group announced on Saturday it would picket Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut where 26 children and adults were killed.

Anonymous published private email addresses, phone numbers and home addresses of various members, and teased the group about the hack on Twitter. Anonymous also posted a video condemning the group for "breeding hatred" and adding, "We will destroy you. We are coming.”
There are also 55k signatures on the White house petition so far to recognize Westboro Baptist as a Hate Group (which would kill their tax-exempt status, at least...).
More importantly, here's the link to the petition.
Is that the same petition? Because it only seems to have about 14k signatures, rather than 55k.
Will have to double check. I saw one linked that had 55k, but it may have been from another article. Note that I only believe that they should be publicly held accountable for their hate speech with more speech as a result of this doxxing, as Fed would say.

tapatalkin'
This one has 70,000+ signatures.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Kraken » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:41 pm

I signed 'em both and plugged 'em on facebook as well. Wonder if anything will come of it.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Exodor » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:43 pm

Joe Posnanski posted his thoughts tonight
Friday and Saturday and Sunday, like Americans from one end to the other, I sat in front of the television and watched the unimaginable scene in Newtown, Connecticut. I spent the weekend on the brink of tears. I spent the weekend looking for that same thing I needed to find in Tucson. And when a woman who had lived in the town and worked at the school for years talked about Victoria Soto, the teacher who it is being reported tried to hide her students and literally died tried to shield them, I finally broke down. But it was not what I needed.

"Daddy," the 7-year-old, Katie, says as she barges into the room. "My stomach hurts."

"Mine too, sweetheart," I say, and I kiss her on the forehead and hug her too tight. And I can't think of anything else to say.
Yeah. Me too. :(

I'm very thankful that Elise has not heard or at least doesn't understand what happened on Friday. I fear when she goes to school tomorrow she'll hear about it and ask hard questions when she comes home. I'm not really sure how I'll answer them.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Zarathud » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:05 am

We gave 5 year old Fish the short version tonight -- someone killed some kids at a school on Friday with a gun and then himself, but nobody knows why and lots of people are scared. We told her that her school is safe. Being a Chicago school, they've already done lockdown drills and fire drills. The local traffic crossing guard doubles as emergency security, so the school is actually prepared and as safe as it can be made. And we told her all of those people were going to make sure she was safe but some kids in her class might be scared -- and that's ok.

She wondered if the bad guy had a beard and mustache or whether he became bad after putting on a ring (aka the Gollum explanation). She decided that the guy must have had a headache or thought he had a water gun but it turned out to be a real gun, and the bullets bounced off and he died. Not wanting to go into any specifics, we told her the police were trying to figure out what happened. She said it scared her and she promised to help the kids about it and tell her teacher if she gets scared. She asked if the teachers tried to keep the kids safe, and if the teachers got hurt. We told her the teachers tried to help, but we don't know everything that happened. She then declared she would be safe if she wore her lucky headband next week, and she would have liked just to know her school was safe, so goodnight and get her if she's having bad dreams. She's sleeping ok, but we tired her out today with attention.

Not a conversation I wanted to have, but she reacts badly to the unexpected -- and freaks out. I expect school will be a fortress on Monday, and she'd notice the tension. We decided letting her figure out a "safe" version is probably more helpful to her mental health in the long run. I can't watch much of the news, it just burns me up.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Blackhawk » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:23 am

I talked it over with my kids earlier. They're like me - rational rather than emotional and very to the point. They asked a few details which I gave them directly. I haven't sheltered them. They know that real violence occurs in the world, and respond best to truthful answers. I looked up the number of elementary schools in the US and had them tell me the 'odds' (1 incident that they know of in ~67,000 schools), which is exactly the kind of safety reassurance that is meaningful to them - they think in numbers.

Well, it may not be the same talk most parents have with their kids, but it is the kind mine need.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Sabassis » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:30 am

I saw on 60 minutes that the school was locked. The shooter actually shot out a window and made entrance into the school. If someone is truly crazy, there is no way to stop them.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Chrisoc13 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:41 am

Sabassis wrote:I saw on 60 minutes that the school was locked. The shooter actually shot out a window and made entrance into the school. If someone is truly crazy, there is no way to stop them.
Yeah that's the sad thing. The school had decent security protocols in place. Not a fortress mind you but much better than any school I have ever gone to has had.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Kurth » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:45 am

I have three kids - 9, 7 and 4. What to tell them - if anything - has been a big discussion. My wife is sure they are going to hear about it today and wanted to address it in a preemptive way. I felt the better course is to say nothing and let them bring their questions to us. In the end, we're sending them off to school without addressing It first.

I'm never one for shielding kids from reality, and if (when) they have questions, I'll give them honest answers. But I felt like sitting them down for "a talk" about it might lead them to wrongly believe this has more relevance to their lives than it really does.

Also, when they ask, I'm not going to lie to lie to them and tell them they are safe from this kind of thing. No one is safe or ever will be safe from this kind if thing. That type of security does not exist. But I will tell them this is a freak occurrence that is so rare they don't need to worry about it. Like being struck by lightening or having a brick fall on your head on the way to work. We don't stop playing outside for fear of being caught in a quick moving thunderstorm, and we don't stop going to work because we're afraid of bricks falling on us. There's just a low level of background risk in life you have to live with. This type of crazy, horrible tragic incident is just part - an infinitesimally small part - of that background risk.

I know that sounds like it may be difficult for elementary school kids to get, but I think mine will deal with that better than an answer I can't really defend. And i have no doubt whatsoever that if I told them they don't need to worry because they are safe at school from crazies with guns, they'd eat my lunch. The questions would be non-stop, and they'd know I was feeding them crap if I tried to stick to that line.

To be sure, what to tell kids about this is a really hard call with no right answer. I think you have to just know your kids and what they'll respond to.

Good luck.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Odin » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:34 am

My kids are aware of it. The two older kids were around while I was watching the news on Friday. They're fairly mature and rational for their ages (except when they're being immature and irrational, but that's part of being a kid) and they didn't seem particularly disturbed by it, other than the typical "that's horrible. Those poor people" reaction you'd expect from people of any age. The younger one saw the news over the weekend and wondered what was going on, but also didn't seem personally affected by it. They're all pretty level-headed and honestly not the most empathetic people in the world (nor are my wife or I, for that matter), so their reaction to it was more clinical and detached than it was personal and directly painful for them.

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Gavin
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Gavin » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:48 am

rshetts2 wrote:If thats in reference to my comments regarding martyrdom, please understand I am not advocating vigilante justice. I am referring to ending the Westboro Baptist Church group, as a functioning organization. Removing their tax exempt status would certainly send a message. The martyrdom I am seeking is not directed towards individuals but towards an organization that continues to appall the majority of US citizens aware of their activities.
I do wonder how people would react to them being martyred for their... "cause?". Would there be the typical positive response or would most everyone just secretly be happy about it and publically admit that they had it coming?

If you (royal you, of course) protest the funeral of grieving parents for some arbitrary and unrelated reason then you are just asking for one or two parents who just lost their reason to live to hunt you down.

Another question, would labeling them a hate group really remove their tax status? The KKK is a hate group too, right? Are they likewise barred from the non-profit status? In a very odd twist of happenings, I actually consider a group worse than the KKK (in their present nuetered state). The Westboro group feeds on the pain and sufferings of others for reasons that they are only harming by seeking to fulfill in this manner. Oh well.

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Jag
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Jag » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:10 am

Odin wrote:My kids are aware of it. The two older kids were around while I was watching the news on Friday. They're fairly mature and rational for their ages (except when they're being immature and irrational, but that's part of being a kid) and they didn't seem particularly disturbed by it, other than the typical "that's horrible. Those poor people" reaction you'd expect from people of any age.
Same with my 12 year old. He pretty much absorbed it all from the various floating news sources that our wired world pumps out daily by the time we watched Obama last night.

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Octavious
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Octavious » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:18 am

My daughter who is 6 really doesn't know anything about it. I don't see the value in trying to explain something so horrible to someone that age. :cry:
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YellowKing
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by YellowKing » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:46 am

Yeah, I consider myself fortunate that my kids are 3 and 1. The oldest one doesn't even understand death yet, so to even try to explain it to her (which I wouldn't do anyway), would be futile.

The pictures of the kids really hit me hard, as the one little blonde girl reminds me so much of my daughter.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Octavious » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:51 am

I can't and won't look at the pictures. I'd just lose it. My wife had the tv on and they started displaying the pictures and I jumped up and changed the channel. She had already lost it. She's very sensitive to this kind of stuff as is my daughter so I'd just rather they avoid it entirely.
Capitalism tries for a delicate balance: It attempts to work things out so that everyone gets just enough stuff to keep them from getting violent and trying to take other people’s stuff.

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