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School shooting (elementary) in CT

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Carpet_pissr » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:12 pm

I think it's important that we watch, and lose it, and cry though.

If we didn't react that way (and admittedly, my first response was "I can't watch this", and pretty much stuck my head in the sand), and blithely state (as I have seen a LOT of evidence already on this board), that "yeah, it's horrible, but what are ya gonna do?" and just shrug it off, waiting for the next school or church or college campus, or theater to get shot up, that is complete horse shit IMO.

Especially if you are a parent, but I think for all citizens, this is happening on OUR watch. We are responsible, as a nation, to do something to protect the most helpless amongst us. I am ashamed that this is a blot on me, and my generational peers, but dammit, we WILL do something this time. Bring on the fucking NRA and their lobby, bring on the 2nd amendment arguments. MASSACRED 6 YEAR OLDS TRUMPS ANYthing you can say, to hopefully a lot of people in the country now. We have tolerated relaxed gun laws, we have bowed to "but, but FREEDOM!!" arguments and allowed a very free flow of weapons, loopholes, etc. to continue.

I think, and hope, that now finally, this event will spur those that were, like me, on the sidelines, conflicted about gun control in general, and those who were already trying, and in positions to actually effect change, to take action. I will support those people however I can, whether they are lawmakers, policy leaders, whatever. With votes and with money. And I know I am not alone in this mindset. I think it was '94, where so many Democrats got blown out of Congress because they voted against the assault rifle ban law (or was it 2004?), and I sense a similar storm brewing, but on the opposite side.

As Joe Scarborough said this morning (an "A" rated Congressman by NRA grading standards), it's time to turn over the tables in the temple. Enough is enough.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Gavin » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:31 pm

YellowKing wrote:Yeah, I consider myself fortunate that my kids are 3 and 1. The oldest one doesn't even understand death yet, so to even try to explain it to her (which I wouldn't do anyway), would be futile.

The pictures of the kids really hit me hard, as the one little blonde girl reminds me so much of my daughter.
I was fairly desensitized towards the whole event until school/family picures of the victims and video of parents started being released.

As to Carpet_Pissr's comments. This doesn't spur me to gun control in so many ways. I mean, some additional limitations can help but there's a lot more underneath here. What if there had been someone in the school that had a gun and was trained to respond to these kinds of scenarios (basic gun control)? Like the officer I had in my high school who carried a gun and was trained to use it. The particular problem in schools is moreso that they have become gun-free killing zones where assholes with guns can go in and expect complete inadequacy of their ability to quickly respond. Should our schools not have the equivalent of air marshals?

So the problem isn't entirely that people say "what can you do?", it's that people come up with different conclusions about what needs to be done and both sides think the other is being dumb. I think the "ban on gun" people are being naive for thinking that would keep them out of their hands and they think likewise I'm being ignorant or warmongering (fyi, I don't own a gun). So the argument isn't necessarily anything to do with our rights though I definitely think we have a right to be able to defend ourselves against criminals who would otherwise obtain the guns illegally. It's also that we want people who can handle having a gun to have guns to protect us from the people who obtain them but shouldn't have them.

In a nation where there are 88 guns for every 100 citizens, good luck going the ban route and not seeing an extreme spike in murder sprees in combination with people being unable to respond. I'm for more stringent laws to obtain guns for the first time and continued psych profiles. But the guns that are used are typically illegally obtained. In this scenario, they weren't his if any of the reports bear any trustworthy credentials.

Of the convicts owning guns, 80% were obtained from illegal sources as opposed to flea market/gun shows/pawn shops/retail stores. Please, praytell, how constricting legal purchases would necessarily impact them? Gun related crime directly correlates with fluxuations in the illegal gun trade, something we do and should be readily pursuing. I'd also be interested in making sure that remaining 20% of guns where criminals get their guns in legal venues gets whittled down.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Paingod » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:30 pm

Our Eldest (4) seems to 'grasp' death, but we're not sure to what extent. He looks out the window and sees the brown trees of winter and says "Look, mommy, the trees are all dead" or bringing my wife a picture of her deceased mother, he'll say "Here's your mommy. She's dead." and has seen a few animals around the house pass on, like a snake we caught and attempted to keep in a terrarium; which seemed fine until the day it stopped eating and moving. He gets that these things stop moving and go away forever, but I'm not sure to what extent.

We aren't telling him about this simply because it serves no purpose in his life to know about this kind of evil yet. Before we send him to school, we'll tell him about bad people and what to do if he hears guns; what to do if he sees a gun, etc. Right now, he's just a happy dude without a care in the world.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Bakhtosh » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:16 pm

I'm hearing a lot of "chatter" about legislation to crack down on violent video games.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Smoove_B » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:19 pm

Right, because if there's anything that makes more sense than Victoria Jackson equating what happened last week with abortion, it's the idea that we need to start policing video games. Has anyone mentioned this was caused by a lack of prayer in school? Did we get there yet?

The mental gymnastics going on over what happened is unparalleled.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Gavin » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:23 pm

Smoove_B wrote:Right, because if there's anything that makes more sense than Victoria Jackson equating what happened last week with abortion, it's the idea that we need to start policing video games. Has anyone mentioned this was caused by a lack of prayer in school? Did we get there yet?

The mental gymnastics going on over what happened is unparalleled.
People need a scapegoat. When the person who caused the tragedy is out of reach, broader targets pop up.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Fretmute » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:24 pm

Smoove_B wrote:Has anyone mentioned this was caused by a lack of prayer in school? Did we get there yet?
My Facebook feed has been blowing up with the "How could you let this happen in a school, God? 'Because I'm not allowed in schools.' " picture.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by LordMortis » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:29 pm

Smoove_B wrote:Right, because if there's anything that makes more sense than Victoria Jackson equating what happened last week with abortion, it's the idea that we need to start policing video games. Has anyone mentioned this was caused by a lack of prayer in school? Did we get there yet?

The mental gymnastics going on over what happened is unparalleled.
Victoria Jackson? I thought that was Mike Huckabee

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/12 ... -massacre/" target="_blank

And it's twofer.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:38 pm

Smoove_B wrote:Right, because if there's anything that makes more sense than Victoria Jackson equating what happened last week with abortion, it's the idea that we need to start policing video games. Has anyone mentioned this was caused by a lack of prayer in school? Did we get there yet?

The mental gymnastics going on over what happened is unparalleled.
Seriously. I say bring back prohibition. We can't have 80,000 alcohol related fatalities every year.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by LawBeefaroni » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:43 pm

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Gavin » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:00 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:Gun debate over here.
Ah, thanks!

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Skinypupy » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:08 pm

Fretmute wrote:
Smoove_B wrote:Has anyone mentioned this was caused by a lack of prayer in school? Did we get there yet?
My Facebook feed has been blowing up with the "How could you let this happen in a school, God? 'Because I'm not allowed in schools.' " picture.
Yep, I've been seeing that one a lot as well. Pisses me off every time.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by YellowKing » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:13 pm

I'm hearing a lot of "chatter" about legislation to crack down on violent video games.
I knew that was coming when they said the shooter played video games. Find me a person in their teens-early 20s that DOESN'T play video games. You may as well blame it on Coke because the shooter indulged in caffeinated beverages.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Gavin » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:18 pm

YellowKing wrote:I knew that was coming when they said the shooter played video games. Find me a person in their teens-early 20s that DOESN'T play video games. You may as well blame it on Coke because the shooter indulged in caffeinated beverages.
Yes, the video game, this generation's book (which features truly interactive storytelling).

As a person with a religious upbringing, I apologize for nutjobs who think this is some form of punishment for anything.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:20 pm

YellowKing wrote:
I'm hearing a lot of "chatter" about legislation to crack down on violent video games.
I knew that was coming when they said the shooter played video games. Find me a person in their teens-early 20s that DOESN'T play video games. You may as well blame it on Coke because the shooter indulged in caffeinated beverages.
Ironically, there are more gun owners than video game players.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Gavin » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:35 pm

noxiousdog wrote:Ironically, there are more gun owners than video game players.
I'm not entirely sure on that. There are 88 guns for every 100 Americans but I don't know the average number of guns that gun owners have. If it's 1, then yeah, there are more, but if it's 2 or higher then not so depending on which "percent of gamers in America". (http://www.joystiq.com/2012/09/06/npd-n ... tals-down/" target="_blank says 211 million US gamers)

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Blackhawk » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:36 pm

noxiousdog wrote:
YellowKing wrote:
I'm hearing a lot of "chatter" about legislation to crack down on violent video games.
I knew that was coming when they said the shooter played video games. Find me a person in their teens-early 20s that DOESN'T play video games. You may as well blame it on Coke because the shooter indulged in caffeinated beverages.
Ironically, there are more gun owners than video game players.
There are more guns than video game players, but not gun owners. Gun owners are around ~40%, and most own multiple guns. Game players are around 70%.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Isgrimnur » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:37 pm

I think we can agree there are more video games in the US than guns. :)

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Gavin » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:43 pm

Blackhawk wrote:There are more guns than video game players, but not gun owners. Gun owners are around ~40%, and most own multiple guns. Game players are around 70%.
Ah, so a gun owner owns just over two guns on average but less than three. This is what I suspected since I know so many people with ten various types (I personally own zero but am not opposed to having one as long as I also possess the means to prevent anyone else ever getting to it, especially my children).

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:44 pm

Blackhawk wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:
YellowKing wrote:
I'm hearing a lot of "chatter" about legislation to crack down on violent video games.
I knew that was coming when they said the shooter played video games. Find me a person in their teens-early 20s that DOESN'T play video games. You may as well blame it on Coke because the shooter indulged in caffeinated beverages.
Ironically, there are more gun owners than video game players.
There are more guns than video game players, but not gun owners. Gun owners are around ~40%, and most own multiple guns. Game players are around 70%.
But 80% of those play Farmville.

There's no chance that 40 million households play violent video games.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Gavin » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:45 pm

noxiousdog wrote:There's no chance that 40 million households play violent video games.
I didn't see violent videogames specified in your original statement. Even then, are there actual numbers on this that follow a legitimate standard on what constitutes violence?

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Blackhawk » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:53 pm

Yeah, I wasn't discussing violent video games - it wasn't part of the statement I was disagreeing with.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by noxiousdog » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:54 pm

Gavin wrote:
noxiousdog wrote:There's no chance that 40 million households play violent video games.
I didn't see violent videogames specified in your original statement. Even then, are there actual numbers on this that follow a legitimate standard on what constitutes violence?
Look up the best selling games of all time. Do some extrapolation.

The original statement was about violent video games.

And really, it's pretty irrelevant. It was just an observation. Either way the numbers are comperable. Neither is a likely indicator you're going on a killing spree.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Anonymous Bosch » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:36 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote:I think it's important that we watch, and lose it, and cry though.

If we didn't react that way (and admittedly, my first response was "I can't watch this", and pretty much stuck my head in the sand), and blithely state (as I have seen a LOT of evidence already on this board), that "yeah, it's horrible, but what are ya gonna do?" and just shrug it off, waiting for the next school or church or college campus, or theater to get shot up, that is complete horse shit IMO.

Especially if you are a parent, but I think for all citizens, this is happening on OUR watch. We are responsible, as a nation, to do something to protect the most helpless amongst us. I am ashamed that this is a blot on me, and my generational peers, but dammit, we WILL do something this time. Bring on the fucking NRA and their lobby, bring on the 2nd amendment arguments. MASSACRED 6 YEAR OLDS TRUMPS ANYthing you can say, to hopefully a lot of people in the country now. We have tolerated relaxed gun laws, we have bowed to "but, but FREEDOM!!" arguments and allowed a very free flow of weapons, loopholes, etc. to continue.

I think, and hope, that now finally, this event will spur those that were, like me, on the sidelines, conflicted about gun control in general, and those who were already trying, and in positions to actually effect change, to take action. I will support those people however I can, whether they are lawmakers, policy leaders, whatever. With votes and with money. And I know I am not alone in this mindset. I think it was '94, where so many Democrats got blown out of Congress because they voted against the assault rifle ban law (or was it 2004?), and I sense a similar storm brewing, but on the opposite side.

As Joe Scarborough said this morning (an "A" rated Congressman by NRA grading standards), it's time to turn over the tables in the temple. Enough is enough.
…which has bugger all to do with the SOMETHING that gets done being demonstrably effective in terms of actual prevention of any similar future atrocities, and seems more akin to an argument specifically favouring the passage of worthless, feel-good legislation.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Rip » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:45 pm

YellowKing wrote:
I'm hearing a lot of "chatter" about legislation to crack down on violent video games.
I knew that was coming when they said the shooter played video games. Find me a person in their teens-early 20s that DOESN'T play video games. You may as well blame it on Coke because the shooter indulged in caffeinated beverages.
While I don't support restrictions on games and movies, these are mediums that glorify the very thing that people are screaming to ban. The thing I can't come to terms with is how the same people who would ban guns are so opposed to restricting movie and game content. This to me is as ignorant as was enacting laws to prevent children from smoking while ignoring the marketing trying to cater to them and make them want to smoke.

Banning an item while providing no limitation to those things that give young people a desire for said object is just being obtuse. As long as there are rappers singing about popping a cap in someones ass there will be fans wanting to have a cap popper.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Gavin » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:31 am

noxiousdog wrote:Look up the best selling games of all time. Do some extrapolation.
Depends on what you call violence. I'd say the vast majority of games have violence in them. That's what I meant by a legitimate standard for what constitutes violence. Either way, FPS games do remarkably well and are consistently on the top of that list.

I understand it was a side observation, but I'm stretching it out to see if there's any validity on it. No reason to take things at face value is there?

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Zarathud » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:55 am

Guns don't kill people, but the media does? Bullshit.

There's at best speculation the shooter was influenced by violence in media, but clear forensic evidence that the murder weapon was a rifle.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by noxiousdog » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:14 pm

Zarathud wrote:Guns don't kill people, but the media does? Bullshit.

There's at best speculation the shooter was influenced by violence in media, but clear forensic evidence that the murder weapon was a rifle.
It can be both.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Rip » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:44 pm

Finally I think we can see what caused this.
Lanza would sit with his head straight down, his eyes adrift, never making eye contact. Skuba would run clippers through his hair like a buzz saw.
The kid was about 12 when he first came to the shop. His mom would bring him in, every four weeks, over the next five years.
People would tell the barber not to talk with the kid, that he was a strange bird.
But Skuba's not one to keep his mouth shut. He can't stop talking for more than 15 seconds.
How you doing? How's school? What you been up to lately?
His mom, Nancy Lanza -- who Lanza killed at her house before his school rampage -- would jump in and answer for her son.
He's not in school. I'm homeschooling.
Lanza would not say a word. Every now and then, he'd mumble something. His mother was the boss. She'd pipe up when the barber asked Adam if he liked his haircut.
I don't like it, Mom would say. Cut it shorter, trim his sideburns.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/18/us/connec ... ?hpt=hp_t2
When the haircut was done, the barber would tell Lanza it was time to get up. But he'd just sit there, like he was still getting clipped.
His mom would grab him by the arm and yank him up.
It's time to go, Adam. Your haircut is done.
The boy would listen to his mother. Always, always, always. Never would he disobey her.
No way should he have had unsupervised access to firearms.

His survivalist mom unleashed the kind of monster she feared. I would laugh at the irony if the pain were not so immense.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by RunningMn9 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:51 pm

Zarathud wrote:Guns don't kill people, but the media does? Bullshit.

There's at best speculation the shooter was influenced by violence in media, but clear forensic evidence that the murder weapon was a rifle.
They say that guns don't kill people, but I wonder. If Adam Lanza attacked the school with a spatula, how many innocent children would be dead? The guns sure seem to help.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Rip » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:54 pm

Adam Lanza, 20, targeted Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown after killing his mother early Friday because he believed she loved the school “more than she loved him,” said Joshua Flashman, 25, who grew up not far from where the shooting took place. Flashman, a U.S. Marine, is the son of a pastor at an area church where many of the victims' families worship.
“From what I've been told, Adam was aware of her petitioning the court for conservatorship and (her) plans to have him committed," Flashman told FoxNews.com. "Adam was apparently very upset about this. He thought she just wanted to send him away. From what I understand, he was really, really angry. I think this could have been it, what set him off.”
Adam Lanza attended the Sandy Hook School as a boy, according to Flashman, who said Nancy Lanza had volunteered there for several years. Two law enforcement sources said they believed Nancy Lanza had been volunteering with kindergartners at the school. Most of Lanza's victims were first graders sources believe Nancy Lanza may have worked with last year.
Flashman said Nancy Lanza was also good friends with the school’s principal and psychologist—both of whom were killed in the shooting rampage.
"Adam Lanza believed she cared more for the children than she did for him, and the reason he probably thought this [was the fact that] she was petitioning for conservatorship and wanted to have him committed," Flashman said. "I could understand how he might perceive that—that his mom loved him less than she loved the kids, loved the school. But she did love him. But he was a troubled kid and she probably just couldn’t take care of him by herself anymore."
The Washington Post reported that the distraught mother had considered moving with her son to Washington state, where she had found a school she thought could help him. Either way, according to Flashman, Nancy Lanza was at her wit's end.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/fe ... n-to-snap/

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Scuzz » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:19 pm

I have a neighbor who adopted two kids whose mother was a crack user and basically left them. The younger one, a boy, was born while his mother was using. She got the kids when they were 7-10, something like that. The boy had anger issues, things common to crack babies. When he was about 14 she finally had him put into a school in Utah where they basically broke the kid down and then tried to re-build him. He was there over a year. He is now a much calmer and more social boy. He still gets upset but she can handle him now.

Just an observation.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by GreenGoo » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:55 pm

Rip, what's with the head banging?

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Rip » Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:59 am

GreenGoo wrote:Rip, what's with the head banging?

Frustrated that someone who is looking at ways to have their son committed because they can't handle them would not also think perhaps I should secure my firearms just to be safe.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Gavin » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:48 am

Rip wrote:Frustrated that someone who is looking at ways to have their son committed because they can't handle them would not also think perhaps I should secure my firearms just to be safe.
Yeah, man. What an awful situation. I know he had a disorder (aspergers) but to never let him talk or think for himself. To be so very controlling and to make yourself his entire world and then try to send him away to an institution? This kid never had a chance of being normal.

To think though, he was so very close to being where he could get mental help (maybe?). That's sad.

But yes, people who leave guns around are definitely not the smartest people on the block. But he clearly knew how to use a gun, I wonder if these were his despite his mother having purchased them? I wonder if he had a history of violence he displayed around her. If she knew he was troubled enough to commit him then she should have made that conclusion.

Troubling, all of it.
Last edited by Gavin on Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by GreenGoo » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:52 am

Rip wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:Rip, what's with the head banging?

Frustrated that someone who is looking at ways to have their son committed because they can't handle them would not also think perhaps I should secure my firearms just to be safe.
Ah. Well there are plenty of reasons to commit someone that have nothing to do with concerns that they would harm themselves or others.

Do we have access to his medical history or criminal record yet?

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Jag » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:03 am

I think as more information unfolds we are going to find that the mother had a huge impact on this kid's actions. I've seen parents acting so controlling and bizarre that you just know the poor kid is going to have issues when they get older. I think this was just one of those situations where the kid's disorder, coupled with the mother's 'abuse' (if these stories coming out are validated) created the monster that ultimately turned on her. Guns were the vehicle, but the kid was a ticking time bomb and wanted to hurt his mother in the worst way possible.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Rip » Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:40 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Rip wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:Rip, what's with the head banging?

Frustrated that someone who is looking at ways to have their son committed because they can't handle them would not also think perhaps I should secure my firearms just to be safe.
Ah. Well there are plenty of reasons to commit someone that have nothing to do with concerns that they would harm themselves or others.

Do we have access to his medical history or criminal record yet?
But no matter the reason someone who is involuntarily committed certainly should be viewed as someone who isn't responsible enough to have access to firearms anymore than they should be flying a passenger jet, whether they know how is irrelevant. Mentally incompetent is just that, whether they intend to harm themselves or others should not be necessary to keep them away from weapons. This guy was obviously less self reliant than my eleven year old and I don't think anyone would agree with allowing him unfettered access to firearms.

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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by Daehawk » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:14 pm

I'm back because after seeing it on the news all day every day Im kinda pissed about two things.

1. All they ever say are those poor '26' victims at the school. They not once mention the dead mother of the shooter. Him I dont care about but she is a victim the same as the others yet they are ignoring her murder/death on purpose and it makes me mad.

2. An old saying....Guns are no more responsible for killing anyone than the spoon is for making Oprah fat(insert own analogy here). It is both making me angry and scaring me how much people are buying into this gun legislation bullshit. In fact I told the wife to get me a membership to the NRA for my birthday later next year.

Excellent example of a gun not killing anyone.
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Re: School shooting (elementary) in CT

Post by MHS » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:21 pm

Daehawk wrote: 1. All they ever say are those poor '26' victims at the school. They not once mention the dead mother of the shooter. Him I dont care about but she is a victim the same as the others yet they are ignoring her murder/death on purpose and it makes me mad.
At least they aren't just saying the 20. I keep seeing "20" "20" "20" all over Facebook and it makes me sad. Yes, it's obviously tragic and awful that innocent 6-7 years old children were massacred, but it's pretty awful that 27 and 29 and 54 year old teachers and administrators were, too. It sounds petty and stupid to be upset by it, big picture, but it still bugs me. Families are torn apart when their loved ones die...period.

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