Just bought gas for under $3

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:16 pm

Down to $1.75 here most places and saw $1.68 for Costco members.

wonderpug · Post by **wonderpug** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:19 pm

Why is it that the cost difference between regular and premium is so much greater than it used to be? For most of my life I generally remember seeing mid-grade as 10 cents more than regular, and premium another 10 cents higher than that.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:20 pm

wonderpug wrote:Why is it that the cost difference between regular and premium is so much greater than it used to be? For most of my life I generally remember seeing mid-grade as 10 cents more than regular, and premium another 10 cents higher than that.

I figured it was my fault. The price differential jacked up once I started buying cars that guzzle premium.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:27 pm

stessier wrote:Down to $1.75 here most places and saw $1.68 for Costco members.

We're at something like $2.40 cash around here. We don't have toll roads and I'm thankful for that but that we can have so much gas tax and income tax and sales tax and incomes tax and service fees/taxes and still have shitty roads and underfunded schools that are slipping in their ability to bring the next generation up to speed makes no sense to me.

This is particularly sore to me because we just fought a gas tax and sales tax increase to pay for education and roads. They insisted it was the only way. And not six months after the voters told the state to get their house in order before raising taxes with no guarantee on where they are going, they are raiding the existing taxes (ie gas tax) education to pay for the new Red Wings Stadium.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:39 pm

wonderpug wrote:Why is it that the cost difference between regular and premium is so much greater than it used to be? For most of my life I generally remember seeing mid-grade as 10 cents more than regular, and premium another 10 cents higher than that.

I noticed it started creeping up when gas was first hitting 4-5. At the time I just bought premium every time since the % markup was negligible compared to what I was used to as a mid-grade buyer (89-90 octane). I guess retailers noticed that as well and the reg/premium spread increased to $0.40 and hasn't stopped increasing since, even as prices came down. $0.90 now per Shell yesterday. That's over 30%.

wonderpug · Post by **wonderpug** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:47 pm

Jeff V wrote:
wonderpug wrote:Why is it that the cost difference between regular and premium is so much greater than it used to be? For most of my life I generally remember seeing mid-grade as 10 cents more than regular, and premium another 10 cents higher than that.
I figured it was my fault. The price differential jacked up once I started buying cars that guzzle premium.

It's getting annoying since all the cars I'm ever interested in seem to need premium.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:48 pm

wonderpug wrote:
Jeff V wrote:
wonderpug wrote:Why is it that the cost difference between regular and premium is so much greater than it used to be? For most of my life I generally remember seeing mid-grade as 10 cents more than regular, and premium another 10 cents higher than that.
I figured it was my fault. The price differential jacked up once I started buying cars that guzzle premium.
It's getting annoying since all the cars I'm ever interested in seem to need premium.

I was rather surprised to find the car I'm getting my wife tonight drinks regular. I thought regular was only for rental cars these days.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:49 pm

wonderpug wrote:
Jeff V wrote:
wonderpug wrote:Why is it that the cost difference between regular and premium is so much greater than it used to be? For most of my life I generally remember seeing mid-grade as 10 cents more than regular, and premium another 10 cents higher than that.
I figured it was my fault. The price differential jacked up once I started buying cars that guzzle premium.
It's getting annoying since all the cars I'm ever interested in seem to need premium.

Mine too. The reason, I believe, is manufacturers moving towards smaller turbocharged direct injection engines for more MPG and horsepower without extra weight. It all looks good on paper until you get to the gas pump.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:52 pm

Premium should be the new regular:

Current octane ratings typically range from 87 (regular) to 93 (premium). But, the researchers surmised that if the U.S. were to adopt a new standard, making 93 regular and boosting premium to 98, it would change the way cars are manufactured, leading to more efficient vehicles designed to run on higher-octane fuel, which would result in a massively reduced carbon footprint within the next few decades.
...
Car engines have their own octane numbers, meaning that they are specifically designed to run on a particular grade of fuel, usually regular. So filling with a higher grade won't help, unless your car is built for it.

The problem, the researchers say, is that cars have been designed for the same fuel grades for years. Changing that standard, they argue, could increase efficiency across the automotive industry.

"The efficiency of gasoline engines depends on the octane number, but that's not something that's changed in quite a while," Raymond Speth, a research scientist in MIT's Department of Aeronautics and Astronautics and co-author of the MIT study, said in a statement. "If [manufacturers] know the gasoline is higher-octane, they can design engines to have a higher compression ratio, which would make the engine smaller and more efficient, both of which are a benefit."

That would translate to fuel, cost and emissions savings in the long run, he and his team reason.

In a study published in the journal Environmental Science and Technology, the scientists created a model that would simulate fuel use if 80 percent of the cars and light trucks in America were designed to run on 98-octane gas by the year 2040. They calculated that, under these conditions, national gas consumption would fall by 3 to 4.4 percent and Americans would save anywhere from about half a billion to $6.4 billion a year.

It takes more energy to make a higher-octane fuel, which means increased emissions due to production. Accounting for this uptick, the research team deduced that there would still be a net reduction in carbon dioxide emissions of between 19 and 35 million tons annually.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:55 pm

Jeff V wrote:I figured it was my fault. The price differential jacked up once I started buying cars that guzzle premium.

You can't afford a Volt, but you are buying cars that guzzle premium?

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:58 pm

wonderpug wrote:It's getting annoying since all the cars I'm ever interested in seem to need premium.

Very few cars need premium. Even if they recommend premium, they don't need premium.

Do you need Premium?

The short answer is that if the car you want REQUIRES premium, you can afford premium.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:03 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
Jeff V wrote:I figured it was my fault. The price differential jacked up once I started buying cars that guzzle premium.
You can't afford a Volt, but you are buying cars that guzzle premium?

Like I said, the last few cars I bought all specify premium in the owners manual. I thought all cars were now designed to run on it.

My current car is an Altima. I'll have to check the manual to see if it states "required" or "recommended."

wonderpug · Post by **wonderpug** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:10 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
wonderpug wrote:It's getting annoying since all the cars I'm ever interested in seem to need premium.
Very few cars need premium. Even if they recommend premium, they don't need premium.

Do you need Premium?

The short answer is that if the car you want REQUIRES premium, you can afford premium.

Maybe I can recoup some of the cost by asking the person in the car waiting behind me to pay me the difference for the upgraded quality on the 5' hose full of premium I'm leaving them.

Oddly enough, the most frivolous car I've pined over in the past 15 years is the Toyota Spyder (2 seater with probably less cargo space than SmartCar), which for some reason only needed 87 octane despite being a performance car.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:11 pm

Jeff V wrote:My current car is an Altima. I'll have to check the manual to see if it states "required" or "recommended."

P 9-3

For 2.5L engine

Use unleaded regular gasoline with an octane rating of at least 87 AKI (Anti-Knock Index) number
(Research octane number 91).

For 3.5L

NISSAN recommends the use of premium unleaded gasoline with an octane rating of at least
91 AKI (Anti-Knock Index) number (Research octane number 96). If unleaded premium gasoline is not available, you may use unleaded regular gasoline with an octane rating of at least 87 AKI number (Research octane number 91), but you may notice a decrease in performance.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:15 pm

Jeff V wrote:Like I said, the last few cars I bought all specify premium in the owners manual. I thought all cars were now designed to run on it.

My current car is an Altima.

You've been wasting your money. The Nissan Altima doesn't require premium (or even recommend it as far as I can tell). Whether a car can run on it, it's completely useless for most cars. Very few cars require it. I noticed that with the Camaro. The LS, LT and SS trim levels are all fine with regular gas. Only the ZL1 and Z/28 trim levels require premium, and if you can afford those, you can afford premium). The only Nissan vehicles that require Premium are some versions of the GT-R, the 370Z, and the NISMO trim level of the Juke. Other than that, its recommended for some the Maxima engines, and that's it. The Altima isn't even on the recommended list (after 2013 at least).

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:30 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:
Jeff V wrote:Like I said, the last few cars I bought all specify premium in the owners manual. I thought all cars were now designed to run on it.

My current car is an Altima.
You've been wasting your money. The Nissan Altima doesn't require premium (or even recommend it as far as I can tell). Whether a car can run on it, it's completely useless for most cars. Very few cars require it. I noticed that with the Camaro. The LS, LT and SS trim levels are all fine with regular gas. Only the ZL1 and Z/28 trim levels require premium, and if you can afford those, you can afford premium). The only Nissan vehicles that require Premium are some versions of the GT-R, the 370Z, and the NISMO trim level of the Juke. Other than that, its recommended for some the Maxima engines, and that's it. The Altima isn't even on the recommended list (after 2013 at least).

The 3.5L engine at least recommends it (it's the same engine that is in the Maxima). My car is a 2007.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:45 pm

Jeff V wrote:The 3.5L engine at least recommends it (it's the same engine that is in the Maxima). My car is a 2007.

Even going back to 2010, no Altima is even on the recommended list, even those that share an engine with the Maxima. To address your earlier comment though - very few cars require premium. And if your car doesn't require it, it provides exactly zero benefit. You're just lighting money on fire.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:51 pm

Some additional research (now that I know it was a 2007), suggests conflicting information on the performance of the car with premium vs. regular. However, they stopped doing that, and the 2015 Altima V6 is rated to use regular gasoline.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:03 pm

If only someone would have linked to the manual...

Biyobi · Post by **Biyobi** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:42 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
wonderpug wrote:Why is it that the cost difference between regular and premium is so much greater than it used to be? For most of my life I generally remember seeing mid-grade as 10 cents more than regular, and premium another 10 cents higher than that.
I noticed it started creeping up when gas was first hitting 4-5. At the time I just bought premium every time since the % markup was negligible compared to what I was used to as a mid-grade buyer (89-90 octane). I guess retailers noticed that as well and the reg/premium spread increased to $0.40 and hasn't stopped increasing since, even as prices came down. $0.90 now per Shell yesterday. That's over 30%.

In my neck of the woods in L.A. the markup is still 8-10 cents per grade.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:31 pm

It is $0.20 a grade around here.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Mon Oct 26, 2015 7:21 pm

My car requires 89 octane. It costs 30 cents more than regular 87. When I redeem my grocery points, I get a discount of 30 cents a gallon. Last time I filled up I think I paid $2.09/gal. But since I only burn about a gallon a week I don't pay much attention to the price.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:54 am

What year is your Miata? It sure looks like 91 is only recommended, not required.

coopasonic · Post by **coopasonic** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:53 am

stessier wrote:What year is your Miata? It sure looks like 91 is only recommended, not required.

It's a mazdaspeed, which makes it a turbo, which gives it a higher octane requirement.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:49 am

coopasonic wrote:
stessier wrote:What year is your Miata? It sure looks like 91 is only recommended, not required.
It's a mazdaspeed, which makes it a turbo, which gives it a higher octane requirement.

Yup, and 89 is the minimum. In everyday driving I don't notice any difference between 89 and higher grades, but there's a noticeable hit if I drop to 87. (edit: Oh, and the car is an '04.)

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:50 am

RunningMn9 wrote:
Jeff V wrote:The 3.5L engine at least recommends it (it's the same engine that is in the Maxima). My car is a 2007.
Even going back to 2010, no Altima is even on the recommended list, even those that share an engine with the Maxima. To address your earlier comment though - very few cars require premium. And if your car doesn't require it, it provides exactly zero benefit. You're just lighting money on fire.

Then why do they claim better performance and mileage from using it? Unless they are colluding with the oil industry, there doesn't seem to be any motive for them to do so.

Inside the gas hatch it clearly states "premium fuel recommended."

BTW, I noticed at the dealer yesterday a stat I haven't seen on stickers before -- a projected average savings or not that particular car would realize over 5 years compared with some sort of average. The 2.5L Altima claimed $2500 savings. The Maxima claimed it would cost $1500 MORE. Now, you'd think if the car was perfectly happy running on regular, at 80 cents per gallon differential you'd think they'd be all over this since it would it would cast the car in a much more favorable light.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:52 am

Oh, and here's more information clearly stating premium fuel for this car.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:29 pm

Jeff V wrote:Oh, and here's more information clearly stating premium fuel for this car.

As established yesterday, the 2007 recommended premium (but did not require if I recall). The current Altima's do not. Thus the source of our confusion (since you had not told me the year at the time and I could only go back to 2010 with the list I had).

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:46 pm

$1.619 at the QuikTrip.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:49 pm

$1.95 at the QT's around Phoenix.

Scuzz · Post by **Scuzz** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:59 pm

It dropped to $2.49 at the Valero near my office. That's really good here.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:01 pm

Been steady at $1.77 for a while.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:32 pm

Scuzz wrote:It dropped to $2.49 at the Valero near my office. That's really good here.

That's what I paid at Meijer yesterday.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:35 pm

Paid $2.89/gal at the neighborhood speedway on Sunday.

I think 87 was $2.59 or so. Teh webs is telling me it's 2.39 right now.

rshetts2 · Post by **rshetts2** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:58 pm

I just paid $1.73 in the Metro Detroit area. I would love for it to remain in this price area for the next ten years or so.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:02 pm

rshetts2 wrote:I just paid $1.73 in the Metro Detroit area. I would love for it to remain in this price area for the next ten years or so.

I've seen it for as little as $1.69 cash (and $1.79 for the plastic I pay with) on the west side. I won't complain. I have no illusions it will last, though.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:21 pm

LordMortis wrote:I have no illusions it will last, though.

Crude is up 3% today.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:45 pm

Been stuck at $2.099 ($1.999 with loyalty card) for a few weeks here. Last time I bought premium with my grocery points I paid $2.199.

Odd that 1/10 cent pricing still persists...I guess $1.999 sounds more like a bargain than $2 does.

killbot737 · Post by **killbot737** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:47 am

1.60 this morning at Costco. Feels like 1995!

Oh I forgot to mention, the guy across the pump from me topped off 33 times from the time I started counting. So it was probably closer to 40.

Kchunk. Kchunk. Kchunk. Kchunk. pause Kchunk. Kchunk. Kchunk. Kchunk. Kchunk. Kchunk.

I'm still wondering wtf that was about.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:55 am

killbot737 wrote:Oh I forgot to mention, the guy across the pump from me topped off 33 times from the time I started counting. So it was probably closer to 40.

Kchunk. Kchunk. Kchunk. Kchunk. pause Kchunk. Kchunk. Kchunk. Kchunk. Kchunk. Kchunk.

I'm still wondering wtf that was about.

Doesn't Costco have huge signs asking you not to do that? Every Costco gas station I've been to does.