New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Victoria Raverna »

Lorini wrote:Because being an Eagle Scout allows you to be strongly considered to be in the Air Force, not allowing girls to be Eagle Scouts could be looked at as discriminatory from the Air Force's point of view. I think this is great and as gender barriers come down, I hope that the two groups merge and your kid can simply be a Scout.
Why is it being an Eagle Scout has any effect on getting into Air Force?
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Madmarcus »

Victoria Raverna wrote:
Lorini wrote:Because being an Eagle Scout allows you to be strongly considered to be in the Air Force, not allowing girls to be Eagle Scouts could be looked at as discriminatory from the Air Force's point of view. I think this is great and as gender barriers come down, I hope that the two groups merge and your kid can simply be a Scout.
Why is it being an Eagle Scout has any effect on getting into Air Force?
Because it is a fairly big accomplishment that shows dedication and skills?

Really it's something to point to on the application, well recognized, and with some backing so it is easy to put it on a rubric and have confidence that someone else has done the legwork to know the applicant really did it.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Smoove_B »

hentzau wrote:Have you actually done this? (And yes, I've sat on about a half-dozen Eagle BOR's.)
No, I've never actually seen it happen (in my old troop) or know of a situation locally where it occurred. It was explained to be by the people on the board of review though. I think the spirit of the interpretation is that they never wanted to be in a position where they were actually evaluating the project or voting against a candidate because the project wasn't finished or for whatever reason, unable to launch. Instead, the focus was on the planning and execution (or attempt). It seemed (to me) to be a recognition that maybe there are things well outside the control or ability of a 16 or 17 year old and their Eagle rank shouldn't be held from them because of it. I've only sat in on three and it was never in question, but I can ask my Dad as he's been part of a few dozen.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Smoove_B »

Lorini wrote:Because being an Eagle Scout allows you to be strongly considered to be in the Air Force, not allowing girls to be Eagle Scouts could be looked at as discriminatory from the Air Force's point of view.
I know when I was looking into it, if I had joined the Army, my Eagle Rank would have me coming in as a PV2 (pay grade E2). I just checked the Army website and the same benefit is provided to the Girl Scout Gold Star rank. No idea when that happened.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Grifman »

As an Eagle Scout, I think this is a terrible idea for any number of reasons:

1) Scouts have issues with sexual abuse already, now we want to throw teenage girls into the mix?
2) You also want to throw teenage hormones into the mix? Adults can't be everywhere, especially when you take a bunch of kids camping, and they are doing all sorts of stuff all over the place, in many cases not directly supervised. Scouting is a lot about developing leadership and adults can be sort of hands off at times to give kids opportunities to make and enact decisions. We did a lot of running around in the woods with no adults around us. What happens when Bobby gets Suzy pregnant?
3) Not to mention all the teenage drama between the sexes that will inevitably occur. Scouting was a safe refuge from all of that for a few hours a week. Now if Suzy is Bobby's girlfriend, what happens when he doesn't assign her the crappy jobs on the camp out? What happens when they break up? As someone who was a very awkward teenager socially, bringing this into Scouting would have really hurt me. This is all going to cause unnecessary distractions for the kids.
4) There's a totally different and unique dynamic that occurs in single sex environments, and they are fewer and fewer. This is one less. Guys act very differently by themselves than they do with girls around.
4) Facilities at every Scout summer camp will need to be redesigned.
5) It's really unfair to the Girl Scouts IMO.

You can call me old, or out of touch, of whatever, but this is my belief.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Grifman »

Smoove_B wrote:
hentzau wrote:Have you actually done this? (And yes, I've sat on about a half-dozen Eagle BOR's.)
No, I've never actually seen it happen (in my old troop) or know of a situation locally where it occurred. It was explained to be by the people on the board of review though. I think the spirit of the interpretation is that they never wanted to be in a position where they were actually evaluating the project or voting against a candidate because the project wasn't finished or for whatever reason, unable to launch. Instead, the focus was on the planning and execution (or attempt). It seemed (to me) to be a recognition that maybe there are things well outside the control or ability of a 16 or 17 year old and their Eagle rank shouldn't be held from them because of it. I've only sat in on three and it was never in question, but I can ask my Dad as he's been part of a few dozen.
This would have never flown in my troop. We required a minimum of 4o hours be put into a project, and it was review rigorously by the BoD. ( As an aside, we also had about 40 Scouts make Eagle while I was in the troop, with many brother combinations. We were known for producing Eagle Scouts but not making it easy. Parents brough their kids to our troop because of its reputation) To me, if you pick a project that you cannot complete, then you picked the wrong project. Planning is all great but you need results also.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Smoove_B »

That might have been your local interpretation and I'm guessing it was never challenged. I could be completely wrong, but I seem to remember the people on the board of review telling me about all this through the lens of national. I do know that your requirement of 40 hours is also out of scope - there's nothing at all (unless things have changed) indicating a minimum number of hours must be completed.

To your other points - you sound exactly like my wife :D -- we had a similar conversation last night. I think there's an assumption here that that are going to be tens of thousands of girls suddenly joining the BSA....and I don't think that's true at all. I think (and believe me, I'm not an apologist for the BSA) this is their way of trying to be more inclusive and that they don't realistically expect it to have wide appeal. However, in the event that it comes up somewhere, they have it on record that at least according to national policy, it's not prohibited. I don't really have a full understanding of the demand here, but the email I received from the Girl Scouts suggests they think there will be a mass exodus, and I'm just not seeing it.

EDIT: Even all these years later, discussing the Boy Scout stuff still amazes me - the differences in local experiences. Up until all the abuse stuff started coming out, I had assumed being a Boy Scout was a universal experience. Once again, clearly it isn't.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by hentzau »

Grifman wrote:As an Eagle Scout, I think this is a terrible idea for any number of reasons:

1) Scouts have issues with sexual abuse already, now we want to throw teenage girls into the mix?
2) You also want to throw teenage hormones into the mix? Adults can't be everywhere, especially when you take a bunch of kids camping, and they are doing all sorts of stuff all over the place, in many cases not directly supervised. Scouting is a lot about developing leadership and adults can be sort of hands off at times to give kids opportunities to make and enact decisions. We did a lot of running around in the woods with no adults around us. What happens when Bobby gets Suzy pregnant?
3) Not to mention all the teenage drama between the sexes that will inevitably occur. Scouting was a safe refuge from all of that for a few hours a week. Now if Suzy is Bobby's girlfriend, what happens when he doesn't assign her the crappy jobs on the camp out? What happens when they break up? As someone who was a very awkward teenager socially, bringing this into Scouting would have really hurt me. This is all going to cause unnecessary distractions for the kids.
4) There's a totally different and unique dynamic that occurs in single sex environments, and they are fewer and fewer. This is one less. Guys act very differently by themselves than they do with girls around.
4) Facilities at every Scout summer camp will need to be redesigned.
5) It's really unfair to the Girl Scouts IMO.

You can call me old, or out of touch, of whatever, but this is my belief.
Well...

1) If you're talking about adult/youth abuse, there are controls in place today to make that more difficult. 2 deep leadership, no one-on-one contact, etc. This isn't something I'm overly concerned about.
2) It is a rare occurrence today that Scouts are left unsupervised for any real length of time. And Venture and Explorer Scouts have been doing this since the 70's, I don't hear reports of rampant pregnancies occurring. Plus, we have to see how this offering ends up being structured. Will it be segregated like the cubs? We'll have to see what happens in 2018.
3 and 4) These are my big concerns, really. My wife and I (she's a Girl Scout leader) both believe that these groups provide those havens where "boys can be boys" and "girls can be girls". I know these phrases are not looked at kindly these days, but I do think it's true.
4b) Most Scout camp facilities are co-ed friendly already, because there are female adult leaders.
5) I doubt this will have much of an impact on the Girl Scouts. Because the programs are so different, the programs will attract different girls.

All said, I'm not a fan of the announcement. But we'll roll with it.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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Grifman wrote:As an Eagle Scout, I think this is a terrible idea for any number of reasons:

1) Scouts have issues with sexual abuse already, now we want to throw teenage girls into the mix?
2) You also want to throw teenage hormones into the mix? Adults can't be everywhere, especially when you take a bunch of kids camping, and they are doing all sorts of stuff all over the place, in many cases not directly supervised. Scouting is a lot about developing leadership and adults can be sort of hands off at times to give kids opportunities to make and enact decisions. We did a lot of running around in the woods with no adults around us. What happens when Bobby gets Suzy pregnant?
3) Not to mention all the teenage drama between the sexes that will inevitably occur. Scouting was a safe refuge from all of that for a few hours a week. Now if Suzy is Bobby's girlfriend, what happens when he doesn't assign her the crappy jobs on the camp out? What happens when they break up? As someone who was a very awkward teenager socially, bringing this into Scouting would have really hurt me. This is all going to cause unnecessary distractions for the kids.
4) There's a totally different and unique dynamic that occurs in single sex environments, and they are fewer and fewer. This is one less. Guys act very differently by themselves than they do with girls around.
4) Facilities at every Scout summer camp will need to be redesigned.
5) It's really unfair to the Girl Scouts IMO.

You can call me old, or out of touch, of whatever, but this is my belief.
I can understand some of your concerns but I think since women have been involved in leadership for 20+ years many of them have already been met. I do think you will probably see more parents (girl's parents) get involved and that is always a good thing.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Scraper »

For everyone on this board that doesn't get how Donald Trump won the election, this is your answer. The Boy Scouts capitulating and allowing girls into the "Boy" Scouts is a prime example of liberals taking it too far. Conservatives are sick of it and see it as an assault on their way of life. Agree with them or not they have a large voter base that will show up to the voter booths, combine that with gerrymandering and the electoral college imbalance and the republican party has more than enough fuel to continue getting elected. Don't get me wrong, things like this aren't the only reason he won, but it is an example that conservative will draw on in the future.

Don't fool yourselves, Boy Scout troops in rural areas and especially the Midwest and South will be devastated by this new policy.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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Scraper wrote:For everyone on this board that doesn't get how Donald Trump won the election, this is your answer. The Boy Scouts capitulating and allowing girls into the "Boy" Scouts is a prime example of liberals taking it too far. Conservatives are sick of it and see it as an assault on their way of life. Agree with them or not they have a large voter base that will show up to the voter booths, combine that with gerrymandering and the electoral college imbalance and the republican party has more than enough fuel to continue getting elected. Don't get me wrong, things like this aren't the only reason he won, but it is an example that conservative will draw on in the future.

Don't fool yourselves, Boy Scout troops in rural areas and especially the Midwest and South will be devastated by this new policy.
Well, the one problem with your argument is, at least according to the guy I heard speak on the issue, is that individual dens, packs and troops will have the option of being only male, only female or mixed. So if you don't want girls you don't have to have girls.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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Yup. No one is forcing boys and girls to scout in sin, if that's what they fear.
The BSA said in a statement on its site that girls can join its Cub Scouts program starting in 2018. It will be up to existing packs to decide whether they will remain all-boys, go co-ed or create all-girl divisions. Cub Scout dens, which are smaller units of six to eight kids within packs, will remain single-gender.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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Scraper wrote:For everyone on this board that doesn't get how Donald Trump won the election, this is your answer. The Boy Scouts capitulating and allowing girls into the "Boy" Scouts is a prime example of liberals taking it too far. Conservatives are sick of it and see it as an assault on their way of life. Agree with them or not they have a large voter base that will show up to the voter booths, combine that with gerrymandering and the electoral college imbalance and the republican party has more than enough fuel to continue getting elected. Don't get me wrong, things like this aren't the only reason he won, but it is an example that conservative will draw on in the future.

Don't fool yourselves, Boy Scout troops in rural areas and especially the Midwest and South will be devastated by this new policy.
This may be the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

And I'm actually sympathetic to the idea of "way of life" not being respected in some kind of abstract sense.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Scraper »

noxiousdog wrote:
Scraper wrote:For everyone on this board that doesn't get how Donald Trump won the election, this is your answer. The Boy Scouts capitulating and allowing girls into the "Boy" Scouts is a prime example of liberals taking it too far. Conservatives are sick of it and see it as an assault on their way of life. Agree with them or not they have a large voter base that will show up to the voter booths, combine that with gerrymandering and the electoral college imbalance and the republican party has more than enough fuel to continue getting elected. Don't get me wrong, things like this aren't the only reason he won, but it is an example that conservative will draw on in the future.

Don't fool yourselves, Boy Scout troops in rural areas and especially the Midwest and South will be devastated by this new policy.
This may be the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

And I'm actually sympathetic to the idea of "way of life" not being respected in some kind of abstract sense.
My guess is that you don't understand why Trump got elected and you were surprised on election night when he won. You can stay in denial about the way the right thinks but it just shows a massive lack of understanding of their view points on your behalf.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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Grifman wrote:As an Eagle Scout, I think this is a terrible idea for any number of reasons:

1) Scouts have issues with sexual abuse already, now we want to throw teenage girls into the mix?
2) You also want to throw teenage hormones into the mix? Adults can't be everywhere, especially when you take a bunch of kids camping, and they are doing all sorts of stuff all over the place, in many cases not directly supervised. Scouting is a lot about developing leadership and adults can be sort of hands off at times to give kids opportunities to make and enact decisions. We did a lot of running around in the woods with no adults around us. What happens when Bobby gets Suzy pregnant?
3) Not to mention all the teenage drama between the sexes that will inevitably occur. Scouting was a safe refuge from all of that for a few hours a week. Now if Suzy is Bobby's girlfriend, what happens when he doesn't assign her the crappy jobs on the camp out? What happens when they break up? As someone who was a very awkward teenager socially, bringing this into Scouting would have really hurt me. This is all going to cause unnecessary distractions for the kids.
4) There's a totally different and unique dynamic that occurs in single sex environments, and they are fewer and fewer. This is one less. Guys act very differently by themselves than they do with girls around.
4) Facilities at every Scout summer camp will need to be redesigned.
5) It's really unfair to the Girl Scouts IMO.

You can call me old, or out of touch, of whatever, but this is my belief.
There were girls at the Jamboree this summer. My boss is some regional leader and said they came with his group. The only tricky point was that he had to have female leaders supervise them. He couldn't get any parent volunteers for the trip, so he got special permission for the bus ride to the site and then set them up with a female leader there. Said there were no problems and that it wasn't a unique situation.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Madmarcus »

Scraper wrote: Don't fool yourselves, Boy Scout troops in rural areas and especially the Midwest and South will be devastated by this new policy.
The troop I have been associated with (suburban Georgia) mostly welcomes it. The strongest female leaders really like the idea and most of the guys are quietly supportive. Through family camping with the Cub Scouts and co-ed Venturing we already have girls associated with the troops. Now the Cub Scouts will be official scouts instead of just honorary members during campouts and soon enough they won't have to drift away until they are old enough for Venturing. I doubt very many girls will join (Ventures is pretty steady at 2 girls nominally but with the actual membership constantly fluctuating) but the option is terrific.

Oddly enough my experience leading high school extracurriculars leads me to believe that sex itself won't be an issue. Drama might well be a bigger issue especially at the Webelos and early Boy Scout ages.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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I guess every thread has to eventually devolve into talking about Trump now. :(
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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msteelers wrote:I guess every thread has to eventually devolve into talking about Trump now. :(
Did you think the president is unimportant to the average person?
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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I'd say it sounds like the GSA hasn't met the needs of some of their audience. It would probably be better it they created a boy scout like track for themselves and better promote their highest award (they do have an eagle equivalent -- the Gold Award).

That said if BSA moves forward I think it would be important to have separate troops for boys and girls. That said I would expect there would be relationships between the troops under a single chartering organization, but the leadership would have to be different I would think.

It doesn't bode well for the GSA though. I'd say there is a very good chance that scouting ends up as a single org either through merger or the GSA disintegrating.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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A news report today said that the Girl Scouts had shifted away from some of their camping/outdoor emphasis to focus on different things. This then opened the door to the BSA which still strongly emphasizes those things. In addition, the GSA has not managed to make their top award be seen in the same light as the Eagle Scout of the BSA. Another opening for the BSA here.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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Welcome to "Scouts BSA".
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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And all of this is happening the year I take over as scoutmaster. Yay.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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With the new uniform tweaks for girls who like to hang out with boys they're gonna sell a ton of cookies. :pop:

Image

The new merit badge will be a hit too. :wink:
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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hepcat wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 6:57 pm Image
Yeah, that's what happens when you can't spend your time perusing backpage anymore. :ninja:
Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Jeff V »

Grifman wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:20 am A news report today said that the Girl Scouts had shifted away from some of their camping/outdoor emphasis to focus on different things. This then opened the door to the BSA which still strongly emphasizes those things. In addition, the GSA has not managed to make their top award be seen in the same light as the Eagle Scout of the BSA. Another opening for the BSA here.
I got invited to my nephews Eagle Scout ceremony next weekend. Not sure if I'll go, I still consider them a hate group when it comes to those not religiously inclined (and last year they doubled down by having the world's most renown racist speak at their main event).
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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I feel the same way about the Red Cross and the ACLU. Hate groups all of them!
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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Don't forget the Salivating Army.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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Kraken wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 7:27 pm Don't forget the Salivating Army.
Not to mention the Seven Nation Army. :coffee:
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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Don’t get me started on the Humane Society. Nazis!
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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Jeff V wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 7:23 pm
Grifman wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:20 am A news report today said that the Girl Scouts had shifted away from some of their camping/outdoor emphasis to focus on different things. This then opened the door to the BSA which still strongly emphasizes those things. In addition, the GSA has not managed to make their top award be seen in the same light as the Eagle Scout of the BSA. Another opening for the BSA here.
I got invited to my nephews Eagle Scout ceremony next weekend. Not sure if I'll go, I still consider them a hate group when it comes to those not religiously inclined (and last year they doubled down by having the world's most renown racist speak at their main event).
Well you aren't really going to support the Scouts, you are going to support your nephew. That's how I always look at situations like that.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Jeff V »

msduncan wrote: Wed May 02, 2018 9:57 pm
Well you aren't really going to support the Scouts, you are going to support your nephew. That's how I always look at situations like that.
Yep, and that's why I might go. I'd have to bring my kids along though, and sitting quietly is not something they are known to do.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

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Jeff, you are a one person hate group. I don't remember seeing a single positive post from you.

What's the issue?
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Default wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 7:37 am Jeff, you are a one person hate group. I don't remember seeing a single positive post from you.

What's the issue?
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Jeff V
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Jeff V »

Default wrote: Fri May 04, 2018 7:37 am Jeff, you are a one person hate group. I don't remember seeing a single positive post from you.

What's the issue?
I'm not the one doing the hating. They are the intolerant ones, pay attention, will ya?
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AWS260
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by AWS260 »

Boy Scouts of America files for bankruptcy.
Barraged by hundreds of sex-abuse lawsuits, the Boy Scouts of America filed for bankruptcy protection Tuesday in hopes of working out a potentially mammoth victim compensation plan that will allow the 110-year-old organization to carry on.

The Chapter 11 filing in federal bankruptcy court in Wilmington, Delaware, sets in motion what could be one of the biggest, most complex bankruptcies ever seen. Scores of lawyers are seeking settlements on behalf of several thousand men who say they were molested as scouts by scoutmasters or other leaders decades ago but are only now eligible to sue because of recent changes in their states’ statute-of-limitations laws.

By going to bankruptcy court, the Scouts can put those lawsuits on hold for now. But ultimately they could be forced to sell off some of their vast property holdings, including campgrounds and hiking trails, to raise money for a compensation trust fund that could surpass a billion dollars.
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Kurth
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Kurth »

Sad day. But I think this was probably inevitable. Too many outstanding claims, and just too much exposure.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Smoove_B »

I know we've collectively talked about our individual experiences with the BSA in other threads, but I figured I'd add a little more. My dad is a 30+ year volunteer with the BSA - he continued on helping out with a local camp long after my time with the local troop. He's said things have dramatically changed at the local level over the last year and even more so in the last 3-4 months. While this lawsuit is focused on the national organization,there seems to be a belief that the locals are next and so the local council has apparently started circling the financial wagons in what can only be interpreted as a preparation for lawsuits and payouts. It's going to be an interesting year for them, no doubt. I fully agree with the organization being held accountable. I hope they can survive and overcome the horrific actions of the relative few that used the BSA as a way to abuse children, but there are days when I'm not sure it's possible. Too bad they didn't focus on football.
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AWS260
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by AWS260 »

I had a really good, if unorthodox, Scouting experience over the weekend.

My son is in the non-denominational, gender-agnostic Scouts (BPSA), which is a pretty small, scrappy organization. They've been growing rapidly in my area, and have outstripped the founding leaders' ability to keep up. So they put out a call for help, and on Sunday about a dozen parents converged in one leader's living room, laptops in tow, to spend the afternoon cleaning up financials, updating databases, responding to emails, etc. It was a five-hour festival of administration. No camping or knot-tying, but a communal spirit that to me is Scouting at its best.
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Re: New President of Boy Scouts of America - Robert Gates

Post by Blackhawk »

Man, I'm split. At the national level I'm thinking, "Good riddance", but at the same time, at the local level it sucks for a lot of kids and a lot of leaders who weren't prejudiced a-holes.

I don't know that the brand can be saved, but I really hope something new comes up to fill the void.
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