The homeowners confronting crooks thread

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Wed May 07, 2014 4:38 pm

LordMortis wrote: I wasn't talking about the garage. That's why I linked to a different story. The story I linked to was a second break in by teenagers into an elderly house while they were home and the one of the elderly folks shooting and killing the teen aged burglars.

It sounded like you were grouping the 4 incidents together. Each has its own circumstances.

In the article you linked, it also says:

"He was not an innocent bystander,” said neighbor David Keck. “I’m sorry the little boys or teenagers were killed, but if it’s my family, my family comes first.”

So that angle is being covered too.

And in that case, shooting someone several times when they are exiting the home seems more like a punitive action than protecting family from imminent harm.

Again, each case is different. It's rarely as simple as "no one deserves to die for burglary" or "it is right to shoot someone to protect your family."

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed May 07, 2014 4:45 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:It sounded like you were grouping the 4 incidents together. Each has its own circumstances.

I was grouping them together in that I am finding the response to be ubiquitous it's troublesome to me.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Wed May 07, 2014 5:42 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
LordMortis wrote:Something has really sticking in my craw lately. I've seen about four separate reports in the last month where break ins have resulted in the shooting deaths of teen thieves, two local and two national. Along with four separate interviews with families and close friends with the exact same quote "They didn't deserve to die" with a sort of powerless anger directed at the home owners.

I'm betting these family members are right but I just don't see "deserve" entering the picture when a homeowner is confronted with the safety of their family.
Leaving your house and blind-firing into your garage tells me you are more concerned with the safety of your stuff and/or with shooting someone than the safety of your family.

The story seems to be lacking somewhere. I saw it stated that he saw the guy heading for the kitchen door but that doesn't square with blind firing into the garage. Still left wondering if he saw the guy and told him to freeze or if he just heard a noise and started blindly firing into the garage.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Wed May 07, 2014 5:44 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
LordMortis wrote: I wasn't talking about the garage. That's why I linked to a different story. The story I linked to was a second break in by teenagers into an elderly house while they were home and the one of the elderly folks shooting and killing the teen aged burglars.
It sounded like you were grouping the 4 incidents together. Each has its own circumstances.

In the article you linked, it also says:

"He was not an innocent bystander,” said neighbor David Keck. “I’m sorry the little boys or teenagers were killed, but if it’s my family, my family comes first.”
So that angle is being covered too.

And in that case, shooting someone several times when they are exiting the home seems more like a punitive action than protecting family from imminent harm.

Again, each case is different. It's rarely as simple as "no one deserves to die for burglary" or "it is right to shoot someone to protect your family."

One that is simple though is no one should think that they are safe from being killed while committing a burglary.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Wed May 07, 2014 5:53 pm

Then of course there's this tragedy:

Stephen Guillermo had been out drinking with friends, his family said, and apparently pressed the wrong floor number on the elevator of the building in the 900 block of Mission Street in the South of Market area. He got off on the third floor instead of the fifth floor, where he lived with his brother and sister, and went to the unit in the same location in the building as his home two stories above.

Guillermo was shot at 1:40 a.m. inside the third floor unit of a 68-year-old man, Amisi Sudi Kachepa, who later surrendered to police and was arrested in the shooting.

Kachepa reportedly told people in the building that he blamed Guillermo for breaking the knob on the door of his unit. The knob on the door was missing Saturday.

Just tragic.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Wed May 07, 2014 7:00 pm

mori wrote:Not surprised that Smith got convicted of murder, but 1st degree? That surprised and upset many even in this blue state.

You think it wasn't willful and premeditated?

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:12 am

ABC wrote:Prosecutors Friday were waiting for the results of a police investigation into the killing of a burglar by an 80-year-old California homeowner who says he shot the woman in the back as she fled his home and ran down an alley, the district attorney's office said.

Long Beach resident Tom Greer, 80, told KNBC-TV that the burglar had said she was pregnant and asked Greer not to fire, but he shot her twice in the back anyway.

An autopsy later found that Andrea Miller, 28, was not pregnant, said coroner's spokesman Ed Winter.

...

Prosecutors filed murder, burglary, robbery and weapons charges against Gus Adams, 26, a suspected accomplice of Miller. He was being held on bail of more than $1 million.

A court appearance initially set for Friday was rescheduled for next month.

The murder charge is possible because Adams is accused of participating in a felony that led to a death, said Long Beach Police Chief Jim McDonnell.

Under California law, homeowners have a right to protect themselves with deadly force inside their homes and in the immediate vicinity — such as a patio — if they feel they are in imminent danger of great bodily injury or death, said Lawrence Rosenthal, a former federal prosecutor who teaches law at Chapman University.

But this case enters a gray area because Greer, by his own account, chased the burglars and fired at them outside his home as they were fleeing, Rosenthal said.

"The problem here is that all this happens very fast and his legal right to use force probably ended just a few seconds before he did use deadly force," Rosenthal said. "So the question is should you charge somebody on the basis of what really was a series of split-second decisions when he's just been robbed and physically assaulted?"

gameoverman · Post by **gameoverman** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 4:27 pm

I think, based on his words, he intended to and did commit murder.

However, realistically I don't think every person on a jury would vote to convict him of such. Considering that they did in fact hurt him, I think that's enough to allow wriggle room for a viable self defense claim.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 7:17 pm

gameoverman wrote:I think, based on his words, he intended to and did commit murder.

However, realistically I don't think every person on a jury would vote to convict him of such. Considering that they did in fact hurt him, I think that's enough to allow wriggle room for a viable self defense claim.

From what we think we know based on a few news blurbs. He did commit murder and should be prosecuted as such but if I had the power I would show him huge leniency. She broke his collar bone and intended to leave him for dead. He had his house broken into three times in a matter of months and the neighborhood had been robbed again and again with no signs of these problems stopping.

I have no idea what the proper punishment should be but holding him to the same level of punishment as any other murderer seems like it would be a miscarriage of justice.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:03 pm

If he was 25 or 30 years younger - I'd probably push to get him charged. Considering his age - and the facts around it - the break in/beating they laid on him/etc. - I don't know if it is a case to pursue. The important factor now is that the national media is involved so I'm sure reasonable judgement will apply here.

Grifman · Post by **Grifman** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:31 pm

A different take on this topic:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/31/opinion/n ... ?hpt=hp_t3

The homeowner, who has been robbed before, told police that he returned home one night and found Miller and her accomplice, who has been identified as 26-year-old Gus Adams, trying to open his safe. Greer said they immediately attacked him and threw him to the ground, breaking his collarbone. While the intruders were distracted, Greer got up and retrieved his .22 caliber Smith & Wesson revolver. When Miller and Adams saw he was armed, he said they ran out of the house.

Greer told a Los Angeles television station that he pursued the intruders outside and into a nearby alley, gun in hand.

First mistake. He told KNBC: "When the time comes to defend yourself, you best do something." But, at this point, Greer was no longer defending himself because he wasn't in imminent danger. And he was not protecting his home. Instead, he was stalking his prey.

Then, Greer told the television station, he fired on the burglars, hitting Miller in the back.

Second mistake. If Greer shot Miller in the back, it makes it hard for him to argue that he wasn't in control of the situation and that somehow he felt threatened by Miller.

Finally, Greer said with no remorse, as Adams ran off, Miller pleaded for her life and claimed to be pregnant. But Greer fired off another shot anyway, killing her.

Third mistake. Since Miller wasn't really pregnant, we can assume that she was just trying to save her own skin. Maybe Greer believed her, or maybe he didn't. What matters is this: With the suspect already wounded and bleeding, Greer should have called police and waited for them to arrive. He didn't do that.

Pretty cold, IMO. Once they ran, they were no longer threats. Once she's wounded she apparently much of a threat. To shoot someone begging for their life after you've already wounded them, that's cold.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:42 pm

It was cold. As stated, he was clearly in the wrong and murdered her. As stated, if I had the authority I'd offer him the best leniency I could for, you know, murdering someone. More could come out later but the CNN pretty much says the same thing as I've seen before but de-emphasizes the neighbor robberies, and the multiple times the home owner had been robbed in previous months, and de-emphasized his broken collar bone to injured.

That said I agree with the where the direction he heads

Given that we're talking about an 80-year-old crime victim who grabbed a gun with the intent to defend himself, there are clearly extenuating circumstances. But they are not enough to let Greer avoid taking some responsibility for killing Miller.

Just not the destination

Because his crime wasn't premeditated, Greer shouldn't be charged with first-degree murder. Second-degree will suffice. And if it is proved in court that he punitively and needlessly took a life, then he should be locked up for the rest of his.

I don't know what the punishment should be if the crime is as stated but the rest of his life in prison doesn't sound just.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:57 pm

Odds are he won't live through the legal battles.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:22 pm

Rip wrote:Odds are he won't live through the legal battles.

Golden years.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:24 pm

GreenGoo wrote:
Rip wrote:Odds are he won't live through the legal battles.
Golden years.

I bet his lawyer would agree.

Arcanis · Post by **Arcanis** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:53 pm

LordMortis wrote:It was cold. As stated, he was clearly in the wrong and murdered her. As stated, if I had the authority I'd offer him the best leniency I could for, you know, murdering someone. More could come out later but the CNN pretty much says the same thing as I've seen before but de-emphasizes the neighbor robberies, and the multiple times the home owner had been robbed in previous months, and de-emphasized his broken collar bone to injured.

That said I agree with the where the direction he heads

Given that we're talking about an 80-year-old crime victim who grabbed a gun with the intent to defend himself, there are clearly extenuating circumstances. But they are not enough to let Greer avoid taking some responsibility for killing Miller.
Just not the destination

Because his crime wasn't premeditated, Greer shouldn't be charged with first-degree murder. Second-degree will suffice. And if it is proved in court that he punitively and needlessly took a life, then he should be locked up for the rest of his.
I don't know what the punishment should be if the crime is as stated but the rest of his life in prison doesn't sound just.

Actually what they described sounds like the very definition of 2nd degree murder IMO. While there are some mitigating factors, they sure as hell aren't enough to drop it below 2nd degree in my mind. I'm a strong supporter of the right to bear arms and own just about anything you want, but you also have to be responsible for those weapons and your actions with them.

gameoverman · Post by **gameoverman** » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:42 pm

Since he chased her down, shot her in the back, and shot her again to finish her off I'd say there's enough for premeditation. I mean, what was he chasing after them for? Why shoot her again?

Still, all it takes is one juror to side with him. Plus, the mother of the male burglar was involved in this crime as the getaway driver. That is going to make the pair of elder beating career criminals look even less sympathetic.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:46 am

When you rob someone you place yourself in danger.

Grave Danger?

Is there another kind?

Harkonis · Post by **Harkonis** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:02 am

I think you can easily argue it's murder and could/should be charged as such, but honestly when you've just been assaulted and left for dead and are angry, hurt and with a gun, I'm not sure most people who own a gun wouldn't try to chase down and kill the SOB who did it to you. With fresh injuries of a serious nature, you have enough stuff pumping through you that you probably aren't the most calm thinking machine

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:53 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Rip wrote:Odds are he won't live through the legal battles.
Golden years.

Angel. Wop wop wop.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:46 am

Harkonis wrote:I think you can easily argue it's murder and could/should be charged as such, but honestly when you've just been assaulted and left for dead and are angry, hurt and with a gun, I'm not sure most people who own a gun wouldn't try to chase down and kill the SOB who did it to you. With fresh injuries of a serious nature, you have enough stuff pumping through you that you probably aren't the most calm thinking machine

With power comes responsibility.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:43 pm

Another homeowner guilty of murder.

A Wayne County jury convicted Theodore Wafer today of second-degree murder, manslaughter and felony firearm in the fatal shooting of Renisha McBride on his front porch in Dearborn Heights.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:22 pm

Alefroth wrote:Another homeowner guilty of murder.

A Wayne County jury convicted Theodore Wafer today of second-degree murder, manslaughter and felony firearm in the fatal shooting of Renisha McBride on his front porch in Dearborn Heights.

He wasn't confronting a crook, though. She never even tried to break in, she was allegedly drunk and rattled after crashing her car, pounding on his door at oh dark thirty. He may have been in fear for his life but his response was definitely not in proportion to someone pounding on his door. He opened the door to confront a menace when neither he nor his property were in danger.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:30 pm

LordMortis wrote:
He wasn't confronting a crook, though. She never even tried to break in, she was allegedly drunk and rattled after crashing her car, pounding on his door at oh dark thirty. He may have been in fear for his life but his response was definitely not in proportion to someone pounding on his door. He opened the door to confront a menace when neither he nor his property were in danger.

Seems to me that if you're armed and there's a genuine threat outside your door, banging on it, you don't open it. You lose any kind of advantage as soon as you unlock the door. My guess is that he probably knew there wasn't a real threat but felt he'd be legally justified in shooting whoever was out there so he shot whoever was out there.

If you're really, truly in fear of your life, armed or not, you call the police and take up a defensive position. If, however, you want to play Charles Bronson, you crack the door open and blindfire at head height.

gameoverman · Post by **gameoverman** » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:23 pm

I read that the guy said he wasn't going to 'cower' in his house. That tells me he wasn't afraid, no cowering for him. That also eliminates a self defense claim though. You can't be a badass AND be scared of someone knocking on your door, you have to choose one or the other.

miltonite · Post by **miltonite** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:06 am

Husband fatally shoots masked home invader in Algiers, LA

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:55 pm

Theodore Wafer, the Detroit porch shooter, gets 17 years.

Wayne County Circuit Judge Dana Hathaway sentenced Wafer to 15-30 years for the second-degree murder charge, seven to 15 years for manslaughter, which will be served at the same time as the murder sentence, and an additional two years for felony firearm, which has to be served separately.

Wafer, 55, fatally shot McBride on the porch of his home about 4:30 a.m. Nov. 2. A jury convicted him last month of second-degree murder, manslaughter and using a firearm in a felony.
...
Noting Wafer's age, Carpenter said that anything more than 10 years in prison would be a "life sentence."

Prisons aren't exactly known for their excellent elder care. Or even air conditioning.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:44 pm

While I'm loathe to say "good" it still feels like the right response.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:03 am

Two suspects shot in botched home burglary attempt in Atascocita

Two women suspected of attempting to burglarize a house in the Walden on Lake Houston subdivision were shot by the homeowner after they reportedly broke into his residence Wednesday afternoon.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:47 pm

Thankgiving surprise.

It happened in the 16400 block of 75th Avenue West, in a house overlooking Puget Sound.

After pounding at her door at 3:15am, police said the 22-year-old suspect tried to force his way inside.

“They thought they knew this person, by the pounding on the door,” Sgt. Bob Barker said. “That’s why it was open initially. Then they realized it wasn’t, they tried to push him out, it didn’t work

When she knew she couldn’t keep him out the woman fired one shot hitting the suspect in the stomach, detectives said.

The woman's husband and children, ages 14, 10, and 5, were in the home along with a friend of the 14-year-old. They called 911 before the mother shot the suspect, detectives said.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/breakin ... n-s/njG2Q/

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:11 pm

Police confirmed that one of the males died at the hospital and the other was treated for critical injuries. Another male suffered non-life threatening injuries in the shooting.
Police say three white males in their 20s were moving into an apartment building when they were approached by three black males between the ages of 16-20 in the foyer of the apartment building. Those males demanded their money at gunpoint.
“Two of the movers started to hand over their money, the third mover who was in fear for his safety of his friends, pulled out his weapon,” said Aurora Police Chief Nick Metz.

During the alleged robbery, the third male who was with the moving party, grabbed a firearm and shot towards the robbery suspects. Police say he shot each one of them.
One of the suspects died, another was wounded and was in serious condition on Saturday afternoon, and the third male walked into an area hospital with a gunshot wound to the shoulder. He is expected to survive and was taken into custody on unrelated charges.
The suspects have not been identified. The man who fired the shots has not arrested or charged. Police say he was questioned and released.
“I don’t think we would call this necessarily a make-my-day issue. This is a straight up regular common sense statutorily codified self defense,” said Brauchler.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2015/05/30/t ... -critical/

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Mon Jun 01, 2015 1:10 pm

I mentioned before that my boss had his garage and truck broken into a few months ago, and a security camera he had mounted in the garage captured the perp who was quickly identified after posting the picture on the community Facebook page. Boss told me today the guy got 3 years in state prison -- all for a pair of prescription sunglasses he likely couldn't even wear!

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:31 pm

While not their home, I think a motel room counts.

Most interesting is it involves a former CNN star yet I don't recall reading about it there.

A road trip down old Route 66 led to a Wild West-style motel shootout for a pioneering CNN anchor and her former-soldier hubby.

Lynne Russell — the first woman to ever solo-anchor a primetime network news show — and Chuck de Caro, 65, had stopped at a Motel 6 for the night in Albuquerque when an intruder slipped into their room as Russell went to grab something from the car around 11:30 p.m. Tuesday.

“I opened the door and he materialized out of nowhere; he was inside,” she told The Post. “And he pushed me into the room and onto the bed and closed the door.”

“We tried to calm the man, ask him not to point the gun because we really couldn’t think what we could give him,” Russell said. “It felt to me he was used to doing this, that whatever happened wouldn’t bother him.”

De Caro stood in front of a nightstand, where they had placed their legal, .35-caliber handguns. When the thug grabbed a briefcase and began firing at him, De Caro shot back as Russell ducked behind a piece of furniture.

“It was a gun battle, and Chuck was bleeding heavily, but he didn’t stop firing because the man was firing on him, and he was looking for me,” Russell said.

De Caro was shot twice in the abdomen and once in the leg — but managed to kill the gunman with his return fire. The intruder fled the motel room and collapsed in the parking lot, where cops later found him.

De Caro, a former special forces officer who now works as a national security strategist, was “bleeding profusely” just after the shootout, Russell said.

He was rushed to University of New Mexico Hospital, where he underwent surgery and will continue recuperating for several days.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... latestnews

I'm going to guess the identity of the crook not being disclosed means he was likely an illegal.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:45 pm

Rip wrote: I'm going to guess the identity of the crook not being disclosed means he was likely an illegal.

Seriously?

At this time investigators are waiting for the Office of the Medical Investigator to confirm the identity of the suspect.

MHS · Post by **MHS** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:47 pm

I'm still stuck on why a former prime-time news anchor and a national security strategist were staying at a Motel 6.

Drug or sex deal gone wrong, clearly.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:53 pm

MHS wrote:I'm still stuck on why a former prime-time news anchor and a national security strategist were staying at a Motel 6.

Drug or sex deal gone wrong, clearly.

All reports have it like this:
She was outside. He was inside, completely naked. She gets to the room, opens the door, some other guy is in there, he shoves her in, naked husband and guy start shooting each other.

It could have gone down like they claim. But you're right, it sure is shady.

Alefroth · Post by **Alefroth** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:05 pm

An illegal what? Illegal gun owner?

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:17 pm

Alefroth wrote:An illegal what? Illegal gun owner?

Yea, that to.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:20 pm

MHS wrote:I'm still stuck on why a former prime-time news anchor and a national security strategist were staying at a Motel 6.

Drug or sex deal gone wrong, clearly.

Per the article, they're married.

having driven through Albuquerque on I-10, there are also an awful lot of signs regarding penitentiaries on I-10 to be wary of, so an illegal escaped con is also a possibility.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:23 pm

Further digging makes me think it wasn't an illegal alien.

She said the suspect was a thin, black man wearing green and white. He was agitated and seemed desperate, she said.

http://www.abqjournal.com/606613/news/t ... motel.html