Cops behaving badly

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:11 am

Whoops. Nm, misread it.

Point stands though that like the rest of the population, you have career bad guys doing most of the crime most of the time.

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:13 am

And those are just the ones who have been caught.
I wonder what percentage that is.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:48 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:11 am Whoops. Nm, misread it.

Point stands though that like the rest of the population, you have career bad guys doing most of the crime most of the time.

Yeah except if the rest of the population was caught doing what they were doing, the rest of the population would not have a job. These police are still employed.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:59 am

Maybe we can do to them like we do to teachers. In some places, where there are credible allegations of misconduct but not enough proof to take action, teachers are paid to go to detention and sit there, doing nothing, all day long - sometimes for months.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:51 pm

Lorini wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:48 am
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 10:11 am Whoops. Nm, misread it.

Point stands though that like the rest of the population, you have career bad guys doing most of the crime most of the time.
Yeah except if the rest of the population was caught doing what they were doing, the rest of the population would not have a job. These police are still employed.

That's a union thing. At least here.

But let's look at some of the things. Trying to get favorable treatment for friends/family at work? If most of the population was caught doing this it wouldn't be obstruction of justice. Give employee discount to your mom? It isn't really even a fireable offense in a lot of cases. Yes, we hold cops to a higher standard but if they get caught trying to fix a parking ticket for their uncle it's not like they're a fascist abuser of power. I don't like it but
I'm not calling for that guy's job.

Fudging details as a matter of expedience? Happens all the time. Were last quarter's profits $294,450 or $295K? No biggie. There are current 2 CPD officers under investigation for falsifying crime scene evidence because they had the placement of a dropped weapon off by 2 inches. Inches totally immaterial to the case but that lawyers scrutinizing photographs "caught" in a failed effort to get their client off (which is their job, ob course).
That doesn't happen in a lot of jobs I know of.

Obviously there are legit cases of obstruction and falsifying and everything else but keep in mind that a lot of this isn't the civilian raping, racial profiling, murdering stuff it's made out to be. Bad cops need to lose their jobs (and pensions) and go to jail if the crime requires it. Good cops who make a minor bad decision are not bad cops.

When I have a chance, I'll look at some of those cases. Maybe they're all really bad people but I doubt it.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:43 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:51 pm But let's look at some of the things. Trying to get favorable treatment for friends/family at work? If most of the population was caught doing this it wouldn't be obstruction of justice. Give employee discount to your mom? It isn't really even a fireable offense in a lot of cases.

Come on Lawbeef, these guys are the custodians of the very fabric of our society, and we arm them and put the full force of our justice system behind them. This isn't the guy behind the counter at the theater giving away free popcorn to his friends.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:51 pm Yes, we hold cops to a higher standard.

Damn straight we do. Think on why that is. It's not because we want them competent at their jobs. It's because otherwise we turn into Somalia. We want justice. We give people power to create that justice, not so they can go around enriching themselves and their circle. Cop isn't just another job any more than being a judge is, or an AG is just another lawyer job.

Fixing a ticket? I don't care much about that, but it's still corruption with a lower case "c". And that's the difference between popcorn guy and a cop. Popcorn guy is stealing from the company. Cop is undermining the justice system, which is corrupting. Ignore it and suddenly we have DUI's being fixed. Hit and runs being fixed. Murder fixed into self defense (this already happens for cops, and we have lots of examples).

We must ALWAYS be pushing back against corruption because corruption spreads, always.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:56 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:43 pm
LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:51 pm But let's look at some of the things. Trying to get favorable treatment for friends/family at work? If most of the population was caught doing this it wouldn't be obstruction of justice. Give employee discount to your mom? It isn't really even a fireable offense in a lot of cases.
Come on Lawbeef, these guys are the custodians of the very fabric of our society, and we arm them and put the full force of our justice system behind them. This isn't the guy behind the counter at the theater giving away free popcorn to his friends.

They're humans. If your fired every cop for every minor infraction, you'd have no cops. Or, more likely, you'd have a lower standard which means more cops committing major infractions (which is happening already as departments lower standards to fill unfilled positions so I guess you'd just accelerate the process).

Their suicide rate is many times higher than the general population. It's a shit job. I'm not saying that getting away with stuff should be a perk of the job but they deserve a bit if room like everyone else. You can't just say "85K cops were investigated and they're all bad."

You want to talk about custodians of the fabric of our society, look at judges and politicians. Their trade is deals for friends and family. I'm not sure why cops are singled out as special.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:53 pm

I’m with GG. If they can’t follow laws they arrest people for breaking they need to go. If we need to pay them more and improve working conditions or perks I’m fine with that. Having cops that commit felonies still paid by the taxpayers is totally unacceptable.

msteelers · Post by **msteelers** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:23 pm

Cop who shot and killed a black motorist when he was broken down on the side of the road sentenced to 25 years in jail.

Former Palm Beach Gardens police officer Nouman Raja was sentenced Thursday for the 2015 shooting death of Corey Jones on Interstate 95.

Judge Joseph Marx sentenced Raja to 25 years in prison for manslaughter by culpable negligence, and another 25 years for first-degree attempted murder. Raja will serve the sentences concurrently, meaning his total sentence will be 25 years in prison.

...

The Palm Beach County State Attorney’s Office said Jones' vehicle had broken down on an I-95 off-ramp on Oct. 18, 2015.

Raja, who was an on-duty police officer at the time, approached Jones’ vehicle in an unmarked van. He was dressed in plainclothes, but never identified himself as an officer.

Prosecutors said Raja acted so aggressively, Jones must have thought he was about to be carjacked or killed. That caused Jones, who had a valid concealed weapons permit, to pull out his .38-caliber handgun and run.

Raja fired several shots, killing Jones, according to the State Attorney's Office.

Raja told FBI investigators Jones pulled a gun on him, and that's why he opened fire. The FBI said Jones' weapon was never discharged.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:44 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:56 pm They're humans.

They sure are. That's why we need to watch them and then watch the watchers.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:25 pm

The cops are humans, but they're in a really shitty feedback loop because the bad eggs are getting cover so entire communities don't trust them anymore.

Sure, the job is worse because we've disinvested in social programs and concentrated wealth so certain areas have no economic or social reason to cooperate with the police. But the police consistently blame those they have to deal with, and hardened themselves.

Sure, that's a human reaction. But it doesn't help. If you are disproportionately getting screwed, you're no longer going to have faith in the system. And the politicians who created the mess are long gone, with new politicians gaining power by blaming the police. But the police haven't been following the rules, publicly don't appear to care about the victims of the abuses, and now double down by reacting poorly and closing ranks.

Again, a human reaction. But it's bad PR, bad policy and makes them an easy target.

Just in moving neighborhoods, I've had more tickets in my first 2 weeks than I've had in 20 years. Albany Park enforcement is insane compared to my old Logan Square neighborhood where the beat cop parked in a lot to sleep. The difference? More poor people and a strip club nearby.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:13 am

The sleeping cop in Logan Square doesn’t help make your point at all, does it? To which I mean, doesn't his unconsciousness play a role in the lack of tickets you were getting in Logan Square?

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:54 pm

No pressure to enforce rules in Logan, but plenty in Albany.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:09 pm

Zarathud wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:54 pm No pressure to enforce rules in Logan, but plenty in Albany.

Where does that pressure come from? Is this a compstat thing?

Also aren't most parking tickets from those parking enforcement people, not cops?

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:31 pm

It's tolerance of the District but the enforcement divide/abuse is already documented. The duplicate city sticker violations within 24 hours (evening and 9 am the next morning) really pissed me off.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:38 pm

I think when they gave away the parking meters for 99 years it became imperative to ticket often.

But a city sticker ticket? Get a sticker.

Zarathud · Post by **Zarathud** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:41 pm

Did that 3 days after the move. Had 2 tickets in that window. Sure, I can afford to get screwed by the city, but not a good intro to the neighborhood. And the potholes out here are as numerous as the Guatemalans.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:46 pm

Zarathud wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:41 pm Did that 3 days after the move. Had 2 tickets in that window. Sure, I can afford to get screwed by the city, but not a good intro to the neighborhood. And the potholes out here are as numerous as the Guatemalans.

My experience in that neighborhood is that they like that kind of enforcement. If you don't have the zone permit, you're taking their spots. I occasionally cat-sit (feed once a day) for a friend of mine there. I often get shit for street parking without the zone permit. Haven't got a ticket yet since I'm only there for 15 minutes max but people are always like, "Hey, man, you can't park here!" I always assumed it was the locals protecting their spots, not a warning about overzealous enforcement.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:46 pm

Not the end of the Alix case.

Supporters of a slain St. Louis police officer on Monday jeered at her accused killer, a fellow officer, moments after he pleaded not guilty to charges connected to the fatal shooting.

Nathaniel Hendren, 29, was indicted by a grand jury last week with involuntary manslaughter and armed criminal action for the Jan. 24 fatal shooting of Officer Katlyn Alix, who was off-duty when she was killed.

I'm sure the dept wishes this wasn't going to trial.

tjg_marantz · Post by **tjg_marantz** » Wed May 15, 2019 3:16 pm

Fuck right off you racist piece of shit.

I'm white and can't understand what this is like but fuck me sideways.

Every damn fucking day.

Now ask again why can't they just show the id when asked. Fuck you.

Freyland · Post by **Freyland** » Wed May 15, 2019 8:35 pm

Actually, help me out here, because I'm ignorant. Note that I have chosen not to watch the video.
If the officer (of any race/color) sees a person that fits the description of a wanted suspect (of any race/color), how exactly does he proceed? TV tells us that the "criminal" (who is always correctly identified in advance) will announce himself by running as soon as the police arrive. Obviously Life is not that simple. What is the proper procedure?

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Wed May 15, 2019 9:09 pm

Presumably the same procedure used for white home owners on their own property when mistaken for a criminal.

What are your own expectations if you are at home and approached by an officer of the peace? The procedure is something like that, I'd guess. The beautiful part is that the procedure probably varies based on circumstances and officer judgment, which is why these sorts of things happen to certain people but not others. It's purely coincidental of course.

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Wed May 15, 2019 11:28 pm

Freyland wrote:Actually, help me out here, because I'm ignorant. Note that I have chosen not to watch the video.
If the officer (of any race/color) sees a person that fits the description of a wanted suspect (of any race/color), how exactly does he proceed? TV tells us that the "criminal" (who is always correctly identified in advance) will announce himself by running as soon as the police arrive. Obviously Life is not that simple. What is the proper procedure?

Presumably you ask to see the warrant and he shows it to you. You declare its not you show him your ID, your wife's ID, your registered plates, your insurance, etc. Not get cuffed and surrender your freedom because you happen to resemble a felon from another state.

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Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Wed May 15, 2019 11:57 pm

And that's presuming (in my case at least) all white guys look alike.

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GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Thu May 16, 2019 1:08 am

Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 11:57 pm And that's presuming (in my case at least) all white guys look alike.

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Meh. People look like other people, so...maybe your point is valid, maybe not.

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Thu May 16, 2019 1:09 am

GreenGoo wrote:
Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2019 11:57 pm And that's presuming (in my case at least) all white guys look alike.

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Meh. People look like other people, so...maybe your point is valid, maybe not.

Correct, that would be worst case.

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Freyland · Post by **Freyland** » Thu May 16, 2019 1:11 am

My question largely revolved around the last part of his post, regarding asking for ID. He sounded like that would be very inappropriate, and I don't know of another way to approach confirming the alleged perp without all the crap that must have happened in the video.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Thu May 16, 2019 1:14 am

It's unclear to me what tjg is referring to there. That said, asking to see your papers is a thing. I should note that I too have not watched the video and don't intend to do so, just because I don't care enough to bother, essentially. The world is filled with good and bad and I sometimes choose to pay attention to either on a whim, or neither.

Combustible Lemur · Post by **Combustible Lemur** » Thu May 16, 2019 1:24 am

In the video, the victim repeatedly asks the cop to look at his ID in comparison with the picture of the warrant subject's picture/id. The cop, because he's focusing on controlling a suspect instead of diffusing a situation with a random guy he just accosted, repeatedly ignores or refuses.

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Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Thu May 16, 2019 6:44 am

Combustible Lemur wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 1:24 am In the video, the victim repeatedly asks the cop to look at his ID in comparison with the picture of the warrant subject's picture/id. The cop, because he's focusing on controlling a suspect instead of diffusing a situation with a random guy he just accosted, repeatedly ignores or refuses.

You can almost smell the shit in the cops' pants when he realizes the mistake he's made by the end.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Thu May 16, 2019 9:43 am

This is an inexperienced hard charger who fucks up and refuses to back down (probably due to training). I think it's less about racism and more about inexperience and poor training.

I think I quoted an article from an experienced copper earlier in this tread, but his main point was that we are seeing a higher number of less experienced officers as experienced ones GTFO early and this also leads more inexperienced trainers exacerbating the situation.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Thu May 16, 2019 11:41 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2019 9:43 am This is an inexperienced hard charger who fucks up and refuses to back down (probably due to training). I think it's less about racism and more about inexperience and poor training.

I think I quoted an article from an experienced copper earlier in this tread, but his main point was that we are seeing a higher number of less experienced officers as experienced ones GTFO early and this also leads more inexperienced trainers exacerbating the situation.

There is more background on this officer - he was fired from the Houston PD. In 2013 he was indicted for kicking a handcuffed suspect in the head but the outcome is unknown. Last year, he was no billed on an undisclosed 'shooting investigation'. Yet the reason for that investigation is unknown. And I assume people are digging for it right now. So maybe part of the problem is training but the other part is almost certainly the lack of transparency into officer conduct - at least in that area. The lack of visibility leads to a lack of accountability until you have a public incident. And the reflex is to deny it was wrong, attack the character of the non-officer, etc.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Thu May 16, 2019 5:18 pm

Drazzil · Post by **Drazzil** » Thu May 16, 2019 10:52 pm

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:41 am
Moliere wrote:Cincinnati police union demands extra pay for cops to wear body cameras

"Requiring employees to wear BWCs will change several aspects of their job and regularly assigned duties," Lazarus wrote in a letter dated Aug. 11. "The adoption of of new BWC policies will also have a significant impact on the employees' wages, hours, or other terms and conditions of employment. Accordingly such changes are mandatory subjects that must be bargained to impasse with the union before they are implemented."
...
Fraternal Order of Police Lodge #69 President Dan Hils said it's simple: "You want us to wear something new, it needs to be collectively bargained. The responsibility should increase our compensation."
Really? Is that a thing?

What? Cops wont be able to collect bribes and other assorted illegal income?

Drazzil · Post by **Drazzil** » Thu May 16, 2019 11:19 pm

hepcat wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:33 am I don't see why Brian letting them investigate something that could be easily explained, thus preventing potential hours of wasted time on both sides, is a bad thing. If they were being aggressive, or threatening in any manner, sure. But it sounds like they were just decent guys investigating a complaint from Mrs. Kravitz next door.

A long time ago, once upon a time; my mother was decompensating seriously. She was completely unhinged, barracaded herself in her room with knives, refused to eat, or drink. I called the cops on her multiple times after getting her good and riled up hoping they 5150'ed her.

After multiple times of the cops refusing to take her in to be psychologically examined, she up and just left. After two days of her disappearance I filed a missing persons report on her.

Two days after that I had a police officer show up to my door. He reported that my mom was missing and they wanted access to the house. So I was pretty calm. I just pointed out very respectfully that if I *had* killed her I probabally would have wrapped her up in plastic and dumped her in Death Valley, and would NOT have reported her missing.

I then invited him in. He checked closets and cupboards for an extensive (inordinate) period of time. I decided to fuck with him for a bit. I stood in front of a few cupboards and said "shes definitely not in here officer!" Then stood aside as he paid special attention to those closets.

I chuckled as he left. A few days after that the sheriffs came by. They wanted to check too. I invited them in as well. Me and a sheriff shot the shit and laughed about the whole situation while his guys tossed (very politely) the contents of my house. I didn't mind. They were so respectful that my house was actually NEATER then when they started. I joked that I should have them toss my house more often instead of calling merry maids.

After they were done I begged them to let me know if mom turned up.

Two days later mom was hospitalized for shoifting at Goodwill in north San Bernardino.

I shudder to think what have might have happened had she met an ill end somwhere. I get the feeling that they liked* me for disappearing mom.

* Liked= Suspected.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri May 17, 2019 6:53 am

The majority of murder cases involve someone close to the victim. It’s a simple fact that they have to take into consideration. To do otherwise would be a serious dereliction of duty. Case in point: the recent news reports of two children who went missing, were reported as such by a parent, only to find out one of the kids was killed by their father, while the other is missing still and evidence now shows the father is to blame.

I see no problem with what they did to you in your mother’s missing person investigation.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Fri May 17, 2019 9:51 am

Given the cop's history (the one in the video) I'm going with racial bias with a large dose of stupidity.

Drazzil · Post by **Drazzil** » Fri May 17, 2019 11:33 am

hepcat wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2019 6:53 am The majority of murder cases involve someone close to the victim. It’s a simple fact that they have to take into consideration. To do otherwise would be a serious dereliction of duty. Case in point: the recent news reports of two children who went missing, were reported as such by a parent, only to find out one of the kids was killed by their father, while the other is missing still and evidence now shows the father is to blame.

I see no problem with what they did to you in your mother’s missing person investigation.

Neither do I. I was responding to an earlier thead where Brian had his house searched. I prolly shouldn't have posted in the "cops behaving badly" thread, only to illustrate that they aren't bad all the time.

I've had bad encounters with cops too but thats a tale for another time.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri May 17, 2019 6:49 pm

d'oh Never mind.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Wed May 29, 2019 7:43 pm

It's OK to Pepper Spray bound prisoners because other Supervisors do it:

The union also argued Clark used proper force during the incident and challenged the county to compare other disciplinary actions against officers who similarly pepper-sprayed inmates in restraint chairs.

Clark’s actions were “no different” than what “any other supervisors” had previously done, the union said, according to the documents. They also asked the county to “retract the ‘story’ from ‘Cleveland.com’ that is slandering Clark’s name,” the documents say.