Cops behaving badly

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GreenGoo
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by GreenGoo »

Moliere wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:27 pm Sucks being a cop when you have a bunch of kids standing around taunting you.
What other reason to become a cop than to get revenge for all the bullying you endured in elementary school?

Now who's laughing, Billy from the 3rd grade who spit his milk on me in front of Jessica?

No one likes to be taunted. No one. No one likes having a shitty boss either, but only very few can legally get away with pointing a gun at people because their feelings are being hurt. We should demand and expect more from police officers. The job entails a helluva lot worse than children saying mean things. If you can't handle that, how in the hell can we expect you to handle the job when it gets serious?

There are a few good videos out there of English Bobbies defusing tense situations with much older, stronger and meaner kids.

That said, that's a highly dangerous situation to be spouting your mouth off. If you're not respectful of the man, at least be respectful of the highly volatile situation, and that's taught by parents and communities. Sure the parents can sue the county/city when their kids are killed, but that's only after their kids are dead.

I don't step into the street when someone runs a red light no matter how much I'm legally in the right.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Pyperkub wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:47 pm
Paingod wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:20 am Police should be absolutely required to memorize both the constitution and rules of the road before ever putting on the uniform. They should absolutely not be out there making up rules about traffic flow on the fly.

It consistently pisses me off how much police just invent laws as they go, even basic ones like bikes being allowed in any lane. I've known that since I was a little kid and got my first bike.
Memorize the Constitution? Uh, no. The salient items in the Bill of Rights, as well as applicable State rights should be sufficient. The Constitution is currently 15 modern pages or so and most of the articles define the Gov't, not police/Civilian rights.

Memorize a cheat sheet on Local State and Federal rights, sure, but the whole Constitution is a waste (for that job).
Pretty much.


If you want lawyers with guns, you'll probably have pay them like lawyers. Otherwise you get law enforcement officers. Sorting out the intracies of laws are what sargents and courts are for.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by dbt1949 »

I know how badly my son in law wants to be a cop. I figure his attitude is typical of people who want to be cops. <shudder>
Fortunately for us all he's too lazy.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Punisher »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:45 pm
Pyperkub wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:47 pm
Paingod wrote: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:20 am Police should be absolutely required to memorize both the constitution and rules of the road before ever putting on the uniform. They should absolutely not be out there making up rules about traffic flow on the fly.

It consistently pisses me off how much police just invent laws as they go, even basic ones like bikes being allowed in any lane. I've known that since I was a little kid and got my first bike.
Memorize the Constitution? Uh, no. The salient items in the Bill of Rights, as well as applicable State rights should be sufficient. The Constitution is currently 15 modern pages or so and most of the articles define the Gov't, not police/Civilian rights.

Memorize a cheat sheet on Local State and Federal rights, sure, but the whole Constitution is a waste (for that job).
Pretty much.


If you want lawyers with guns, you'll probably have pay them like lawyers. Otherwise you get law enforcement officers. Sorting out the intracies of laws are what sargents and courts are for.
and to be fair, Lawyers dont memorize all the laws either. They have time to do research.
I will also say that the VAST MAJORITY of cops, like 99% do not "make up the law on the fly" They are making a good faith effort to enforce the law as they see it.. Sometimes it may appear to be made up because the law doesn't exist even though they thought it did and other times its because their interpretation was wrong. charges get dropped, changed, etc.. all the time.. That doesn't mean "the police are out to get you" or even that they are bad.. Yes, there ARE many bad cops..some started bad, while others grew to be bad.. maybe because of greed or maybe because of the things they have had to deal with, but they are in the minority.
The same with police shootings. Police arent waking up in the morning and going out to look for someone to shoot...
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Paingod »

Moliere wrote: Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:27 pmSucks being a cop when you have a bunch of kids standing around taunting you.
I didn't have audio on that, but aside from drawing his firearm it looked like he handled things well. We don't know why he was arresting the kid (maybe the audio says), but juveniles can be some of the worst people to deal with. First hand knowledge. They're fearless and think age protects them from the law. I'm sure this guy felt like he was surrounded and was in near-panic. No one else was controlling those kids and they weren't staying back.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by GreenGoo »

Paingod, it was the theoretical how many 5 year olds can I beat up scenario, but with a gun and nightstick and the full force of the law.

It was Kirk vs. the onlies.

A reminder that the rest of the world doesn't think it's appropriate to point a firearm at a child as part of law enforcement unless there is imminent danger.

It WAS a shitty situation for a cop to be in, I'll give you that.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Lorini »

I agree with GG. You don't point guns at kids unless kid is pointing a gun or has a knife.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by LawBeefaroni »

I would probably support that cop except for him drawing his gun. It seemed like an unnecessary escalation of force.

But with the limited training they get, it's kind of understandable. It's a stressful situation. It's fortunate that there was no discharge.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by GreenGoo »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:23 pm I would probably support that cop except for him drawing his gun. It seemed like an unnecessary escalation of force.

But with the limited training they get, it's kind of understandable. It's a stressful situation. It's fortunate that there was no discharge.
It's no more stressful than elementary school teachers face every day. Which is to say, very stressful, but no one is going to give a teacher a pass for pointing a gun at a kid just because the kid is taunting him and won't listen.

I agree that when every problem has been solved by your gun in the past, it's your go-to solution when under stress.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Moliere »

A Cop Attacked and Threatened a Man Who Did Nothing Wrong, Then Made His Life Hell for Complaining
Finley wasn't shot, or choked to death, or found hanging in a jail cell. He didn't suffer any permanent or lasting physical injury. Mercado didn't even use racist or bigoted language. But Finley did everything he was supposed to. From the footage we can see and hear, he was polite, provided ID when it was asked of him and stepped out of the truck when ordered. Despite cooperating, he was treated poorly, detained and roughed up. When he then tried to file a complaint, he was harassed, and the chief of police attempted to turn his own wife against him—by citing video she hadn't seen and that ultimately vindicated her husband. Yet even after viewing that video, city officials proceeded to prosecute. And even after the video was released, city officials maligned Finley in the press and insisted that the residents of Walnut Ridge believe the assertions of authority figures over the video evidence that contradicted them.

The "lesson" Finley learned here is pretty clear. Power usually wins. You can be as cooperative as possible, but if a police officer wants to dish out some abuse, he can. And he'll probably get away with it. Try to hold him accountable if you'd like, but just know that doing so may come with a heavy price.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Lorini »

What is so incredibly awful about that situation is that nothing will happen to the cop, and the taxpayer's money will be used to pay this guy. The cop will continue to be an ass without consequences.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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I like how his whole attitude changed once he realized he had nothing on the guy.
He evens tries to cover his ass by saying "don't think about complaining".
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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Some cops think that by not putting you in jail, they're doing you a favor, even if you've done nothing wrong. It makes sense that they'd be angry and someone for being so ungrateful.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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This one is rough because it is really, really clear that these guys went out of their way to be thugs and that the problem starts at the very top. And nothing will happen (beyond the 'ambiguous resignations'). It is infuriating how we typically don't hold our police to even a reasonable standard. Even the payouts don't merit an eyebrow raise. People just chalk it up to a sue happy culture instead. Sad!
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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malchior wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:51 am This one is rough because it is really, really clear that these guys went out of their way to be thugs and that the problem starts at the very top. And nothing will happen (beyond the 'ambiguous resignations'). It is infuriating how we typically don't hold our police to even a reasonable standard. Even the payouts don't merit an eyebrow raise. People just chalk it up to a sue happy culture instead. Sad!
There should be a federal body that has authority over police that citizens can escalate issues to if the local level fails.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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Paingod wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:26 am
malchior wrote: Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:51 am This one is rough because it is really, really clear that these guys went out of their way to be thugs and that the problem starts at the very top. And nothing will happen (beyond the 'ambiguous resignations'). It is infuriating how we typically don't hold our police to even a reasonable standard. Even the payouts don't merit an eyebrow raise. People just chalk it up to a sue happy culture instead. Sad!
There should be a federal body that has authority over police that citizens can escalate issues to if the local level fails.
There is.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by malchior »

They typically only have time or appetite for the big issues. The smaller issues like this theoretically fall to state oversight but they aren't great. They are overly politicized.

Here is a perfect example. The next town over from me have endemic issues in Edison, NJ. Literally search on the Edison police and you'll find stories that are insane. Their IA division was used by a Police Chief to punish officers - they even had a fabled 'Wheel of Death' on a wall that showed who they were going after. One of the officers set his supervisors house on fire. They found texts in that investigation that led to several other officers being implicated in Obstruction of Justice. There are many other stories. They have a major headline about every 6 months. So a myriad of problems and yet the state has done zilch to step in. Police oversight only goes to the worse of the worst. That is why we have so much widespread low-level corruption. There is no effective over sight.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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Daehawk wrote: Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:45 am
COPA last month ruled that Rialmo’s shooting of Jones and LeGrier was unjustified, and has recommended CPD Supt. Eddie Johnson fire Rialmo.
I dont think if I unjustly shot someone Id only be fired.
So in court he was found justified in the shooting. I don't know the specifics, but the jury decided he was culpable and awarded the family of one of the victims (the kid with the bat) $1M but under special instruction they said he was in reasonable fear for his life, which made the shooting justified. The judge (rightly based on the special instruction) threw out the $1m award.

Just a few days ago, he was acquitted in a bench trial for punching those guys in the bar as detailed previously. So what does he do? This morning, he was in another bar fight.


CHICAGO — Just days after he was acquitted on charges related to a bar fight, Chicago Police Officer Robert Rialmo has been involved in an altercation at a Northwest Side bar.

Chicago Police spokesman Tom Ahern said Rialmo — who fatally shot two people in 2015 — was thrown out of a bar in the 7100 block of West Higgins Avenue following an altercation with two people about 3:40 a.m. Friday, according to the Chicago Tribune. The situation escalated into a physical confrontation.

The Chicago Sun-Times reports the bar was Teaser’s Pub at 7123 W. Higgins Ave.

No one has been charged. Internal Affairs officers are investigating.

Rialmo fatally shot 19-year-old Quintonio LeGrier and 55-year-old Bettie Jones in December 2015. Rialmo had been called to LeGrier’s father’s home for a domestic disturbance. The officer claims he opened fire after LeGrier swung a bat at him.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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Georgia cops used coin toss to decide arrest or release
Two Georgia police officers have been placed on leave after video showed them using a coin-toss app before determining whether to arrest a woman caught speeding in April, and the police chief said he is "appalled" by the move.
"Why am I being arrested?" Sarah Webb is heard saying to Officer Courtney Brown in the bodycam footage posted by NBC affiliate WXIA of Atlanta, which first reported the story.

Webb, who said Friday she was speeding because she was late for her job at a hair salon, was arrested on charges of speeding, reckless driving and driving too fast for conditions, according to police records.

On Monday, a prosecutor dismissed the charges, the station reported.

In the video posted by WXIA, Brown and another officer, Kristee Wilson, are heard discussing what they should do with Webb, and the Brown says that she doesn't have speed detection equipment and Wilson says she doesn't have any tickets. The officers used the terms "A" or arrest for heads, and "R" for release for tails, according to the station.

The video audio appears to show Wilson say "This is tail right?"

Brown says, "Yeah. So release?" and then Wilson says "23," or a police code for arrest, WXIA reported.

"These are people who are supposed to protect us, and instead are treating our freedom and our lives like games," Webb, 24, told NBC News in a phone interview Friday. "It's disgusting. It's scary to think police officers do stuff like this."
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Over the weekend, cops here shot a guy. They claimed he was printing and they did a Terry stop. Protests ensued, sending 4 cops to the hospital and with 4 protestors arrested.

On Sunday, CPD released body cam footage showing the guy with a holstered handgun. He broke free from the officers and backed up to draw. They shot him.

Protests continued but with less violence and enthusiasm. Without footage we'd have another week of protests and endless blame and conjecture.

Also, the guy had no chance. There were 5 or so officers at least. Why would he do that? It was certain death. Our States Attorney would let him out in a day in iBond anyway, for "mere" illegal possession.


Article with footage (violence warning for video linked in article).

Relevant screenshot showing holstered pistol and spare mag (non-violent):
Spoiler:
Enlarge Image
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Isgrimnur »

LawBeefaroni wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:02 amprinting
Printing
If you hang around the concealed carry crowd for long, you’re likely to hear about the issue of “printing”. That’s the informal term that describes when the the outline of a gun is visible through a garment even though the gun is technically covered. This is generally considered a bad thing, and many people will go to great lengths to ensure that their carry gun isn’t printing before they venture out into public.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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So now what's a Terry stop?
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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Terry stop
In the United States, a Terry stop is a brief detention of a person by police on reasonable suspicion of involvement in criminal activity but short of probable cause to arrest.

The name derives from Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968),[2][3] in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that police may briefly detain a person whom they reasonably suspect is involved in criminal activity; the Court also held that police may do a limited search of the suspect's outer garments for weapons if they have a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the person detained may be "armed and dangerous."
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Z-Corn wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:41 pm So now what's a Terry stop?
When the cops stop someone and check for weapons upon reasonable suspicion of them being involved in a crime. In this case, suspicion of illegally carrying a firearm.

Wiki.
In the United States, a Terry stop is a brief detention of a person by police on reasonable suspicion of involvement in criminal activity but short of probable cause to arrest.

The name derives from Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968),[2][3] in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that police may briefly detain a person whom they reasonably suspect is involved in criminal activity;[4] the Court also held that police may do a limited search of the suspect's outer garments for weapons if they have a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the person detained may be "armed and dangerous."[5][6]

To have reasonable suspicion that would justify a stop, police must be able to point to "specific and articulable facts" that would indicate to a reasonable police officer that the person stopped is or is about to be engaged in criminal activity, as opposed to past conduct.[7][8] Reasonable suspicion depends on the "totality of the circumstances,"[9] and it can result from a combination of facts, each of which by itself innocuous.[10]

The search of the suspect's outer garments, also known as a patdown, must be limited to what is necessary to discover weapons.[11][12] However, pursuant to the plain feel doctrine,[1] police may seize contraband discovered in the course of a frisk, but only if the contraband's identity is immediately apparent.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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Isgrimnur wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:45 pm Terry stop
In the United States, a Terry stop is a brief detention of a person by police on reasonable suspicion of involvement in criminal activity but short of probable cause to arrest.

The name derives from Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968),[2][3] in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that police may briefly detain a person whom they reasonably suspect is involved in criminal activity; the Court also held that police may do a limited search of the suspect's outer garments for weapons if they have a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the person detained may be "armed and dangerous."
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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Image
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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Bammed on my own Bam. :tjg:
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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:coffee:
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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Effing Florida again:
Records obtained by the Miami Herald suggest that during the tenure of former chief Raimundo Atesiano, the command staff pressured some officers into targeting random black people to clear cases.

“If they have burglaries that are open cases that are not solved yet, if you see anybody black walking through our streets and they have somewhat of a record, arrest them so we can pin them for all the burglaries,” one cop, Anthony De La Torre, said in an internal probe ordered in 2014. “They were basically doing this to have a 100% clearance rate for the city.”

In a report from that probe, four officers — a third of the small force — told an outside investigator they were under marching orders to file the bogus charges to improve the department’s crime stats.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Any city that has a 100% clearance rate for burglaries is lying or doing this. Seriously, that's crazy.

Don't have that problem here. Burglary clearances are low. Hell, homicides are at a 15% clearance rate. That is, there's an 85% base chance you can get away with murder.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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Isgrimnur wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:49 pm Bammed on my own Bam. :tjg:
Self-bamulation is a sin against prescience.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Lorini »

Pyperkub wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:09 pm Effing Florida again:
Records obtained by the Miami Herald suggest that during the tenure of former chief Raimundo Atesiano, the command staff pressured some officers into targeting random black people to clear cases.

“If they have burglaries that are open cases that are not solved yet, if you see anybody black walking through our streets and they have somewhat of a record, arrest them so we can pin them for all the burglaries,” one cop, Anthony De La Torre, said in an internal probe ordered in 2014. “They were basically doing this to have a 100% clearance rate for the city.”

In a report from that probe, four officers — a third of the small force — told an outside investigator they were under marching orders to file the bogus charges to improve the department’s crime stats.
Just think of all the jailed black men who don't belong in jail and who we as taxpayers are paying for. So horrible.
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Re: Cops behaving badly

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LAPD fired fatal bullet which killed Trader Joes employee (bystander):
The Los Angeles Police Department announced Tuesday that one of its officers fired the bullet that struck and killed a Trader Joe’s employee in the frantic moments they exchanged gunfire with a suspect in an attempted murder case over the weekend...

...The decision to engage in a firefight at the busy shopping center led some to question the LAPD’s response, while others were quick to praise the officers for risking their lives in an effort to stop Atkins.

“It’s one of those lose-lose situations,” Geoff Alpert, a professor of criminology at the University of South Carolina and an expert on police use of force, told The Times on Sunday. “Unless you can walk away with no one else getting injured or killed, there’s going to be someone criticizing something.”

But some were openly critical of the LAPD’s decision to shoot at Atkins when there were bystanders in the area.

“How are police deciding to open fire in a packed place, in the afternoon, on a Saturday?” asked Jesse Palmer, a 38-year-old neighbor of the slain woman. “It’s not like it’s an empty lot. It’s not like it’s an abandoned warehouse. What sort of protocol is required before you shoot into an area that’s congested and booming with commerce?”...

...

Sid Heal, a retired Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department commander and use-of-force expert, said Atkins was an obvious danger to both the public and responding officers.

“We try to have a clear field of fire, but obviously the suspect has a substantial, even a decisive, advantage if we don’t return fire,” he said. “There is no easy answer.”
Yes there is - don't fire indiscriminately and shoot civilians. If you can't hit what you are aiming at, don't fucking fire a "Volley" of bullets!
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Chances are they weren't trained to the level needed. Combat shooting, and what they were doing is combat shooting, takes a lot of training and it is a perishable skill. Police departments can't train all armed officers to the level required to take on an active shooter because no one is willing to pay for it. So either you tell them to wait for SWAT/tac or you take your chances with guys who put 50 rounds down range a year to keep qualification. If you're lucky, you might get a "gun nut" cop who has training.

If I'm in the crowd, I'd prefer a cop trying to save me shooting in my direction to a murderer trying to kill me going unchallenged and shooting in my direction.


It's terrible but the motherfucker who shot his grandmother 7 times and then brought his crazy to the crowded public place shoulders the blame.


Yes, there were some bad choices by the cops. That tells me is that they weren't adequately trained. They weren't behaving badly.


Edit: that doesn't let LAPD or the officers off the hook completely but it's not a "bad cop" thing. Those cops firing through their windshields at fleeing suspects in residential areas? Bad.
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Lorini
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Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Lorini »

The shooter was shooting. They couldn't let the shooter into the store, so I don't know. It's easy to second guess. I'm fairly sure they are well trained at least I hope so because the city pays a ton to get them training and the civil commission who oversees them insists on it. It'll be interesting to see what that commission will say after all the information is gathered.
Black Lives Matter
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WYBaugh
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Location: Jacksonville, FL

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by WYBaugh »

Here's the dash and body cams of the police officers. It looks like the guy ditches the car and runs into the Trader Joe's and is not shooting at that time. Both police officers are unloading at him while he runs to the entrance...and missed.

http://abc7.com/trader-joes-standoff-su ... s/3816967/

Sounds like shots were fired at the police officers once he was in the store.

So I don't know how I feel. I know you're trying to stop the guy from taking crazy into a crowded store but they were blasting away right at the entrance to the store.
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LawBeefaroni
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by LawBeefaroni »

They were way too far away to be shooting at the guy outside the store with handguns. But at the same time I'm sure their goal was to stop him from entering. Again, training.
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Pyperkub
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Pyperkub »

I'd prefer cops not firing indiscriminately. I still remember the Sacramento backyard shooting. Some one yelled gun when they saw a cell phone and two officers emptied their clips at him.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Daehawk
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Daehawk »

The person who yelled gun should go to prison.
As for the Trader Joe guy. Id prefer they kill or try to kill a guy like that before he gets in a store with me and my family.
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Lorini
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Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Lorini »

I'll post when the civil commission comes to some conclusion about the use of guns in that situation. It should be in the newspaper.
Black Lives Matter
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