Cops behaving badly

Everything else!

Moderators: Bakhtosh, EvilHomer3k

Post Reply
User avatar
Max Peck
Posts: 13682
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Down the Rabbit-Hole

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Max Peck »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Max Peck wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:That's a common thread in lethal shootings. Its human biology in a high stress survival situation. Not sure how you train it away other than engaging in a lot of lethal shootings. That said, I agree, it can be mitigated. Not sure what the answer is.
The answer is training.
That's the mitigation I was talking about. But all the training in the world isn't the same as being there.

It also works better for military and SWAT where the ROE are much more cut and dry. Get in scene, see threat/enemy, shoot threat/enemy. For patrol officers it's not quite so black and white.

And who's willing to pay for it? You're talking thousands a day for what needs to be, to be effective, onging and regular training.
Do American police not receive tactical weapons training? Why would you hand someone a weapon and send them into danger without providing appropriate training?

Actually, that might explain a lot... :think:

P.S. That article is describing training requirements for all uniformed officers, not just SWAT members.
"What? What? What?" -- The 14th Doctor

It's not enough to be a good player... you also have to play well. -- Siegbert Tarrasch
User avatar
Pyperkub
Posts: 23583
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 pm
Location: NC- that's Northern California

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Pyperkub »

Looks like there's some hard data indicating that Broken Windows policing may actually INCREASE Crime (in addition to being somewhat unconstitutional, and racist):
In late 2014 and early 2015, escalating tensions in New York City led to the NYPD staging a slowdown in which the department performed only its most essential duties. That might be expected to lead to an increase in crime, but a new analysis of official statistics shows the opposite: a significant drop in major crime for the period of the slowdown. Researchers are now arguing about what this tells us...

...the authors argue that the data suggests the opposite is true. “The results,” they write, “imply that aggressively enforcing minor legal statutes incites more severe criminal acts.” Rather than proactive policing deterring major crime, Sullivan and O’Keeffe think it’s more likely that this kind of aggressive enforcement “disrupts communal life, which can drain social control of group-level violence.” In other words, overly aggressive policing brings a level of social disruption that actually leads to more crime—and the reduced proactive policing during the slowdown produced a calming effect.
Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
Punisher
Posts: 3947
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:05 pm

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Punisher »

Max Peck wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Max Peck wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:That's a common thread in lethal shootings. Its human biology in a high stress survival situation. Not sure how you train it away other than engaging in a lot of lethal shootings. That said, I agree, it can be mitigated. Not sure what the answer is.
The answer is training.
That's the mitigation I was talking about. But all the training in the world isn't the same as being there.

It also works better for military and SWAT where the ROE are much more cut and dry. Get in scene, see threat/enemy, shoot threat/enemy. For patrol officers it's not quite so black and white.

And who's willing to pay for it? You're talking thousands a day for what needs to be, to be effective, onging and regular training.
Do American police not receive tactical weapons training? Why would you hand someone a weapon and send them into danger without providing appropriate training?
.
Typically American police get some tactical training during the academy and then weapon qualifications twice a year (at least in NJ). The qualification is just basic range shooting at paper targets to make sure you can hit the target with some accuracy.
There is typically no more tactical training after the academy. Time and cost is probably the major reason. There are exceptions such as a new position/promotion in the department require it.
All yourLightning Bolts are Belong to Us
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55316
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Max Peck wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Max Peck wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:That's a common thread in lethal shootings. Its human biology in a high stress survival situation. Not sure how you train it away other than engaging in a lot of lethal shootings. That said, I agree, it can be mitigated. Not sure what the answer is.
The answer is training.
That's the mitigation I was talking about. But all the training in the world isn't the same as being there.

It also works better for military and SWAT where the ROE are much more cut and dry. Get in scene, see threat/enemy, shoot threat/enemy. For patrol officers it's not quite so black and white.

And who's willing to pay for it? You're talking thousands a day for what needs to be, to be effective, onging and regular training.
Do American police not receive tactical weapons training? Why would you hand someone a weapon and send them into danger without providing appropriate training?

Actually, that might explain a lot... :think:

P.S. That article is describing training requirements for all uniformed officers, not just SWAT members.
I realize the training he's talking about is for all but it works better for SWAT and military for the reasons I stated.

American police training is wildly varied. From none to multi-day intensives. IIRC, CPD has like a 50 round/1 hour qualification annually. If they have a patrol rifle or shotgun I'm not aware of any additional requirements. No idea what kind of training but the US average is around 24 hours.

In perspective, I go though 200 rounds in a 1-hour session a few times a month and I'm just doing it for sport. I try to train in the classroom at least 16 hours a year.


I definitely think police training is lacking and is necessary. Last time I was at the store, a kid came in with his girlfriend to buy a handgun. He fumbled with the M&P the guy was showing him and we walked him through it. After chatting, we found out he was a new academy grad and was buying his off duty weapon. He had zero practical training.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Lorini »

You keep talking costs and I keep talking costs of very expensive lawsuits that would not happen if the police weren't so trigger happy. I think the two go together yes?
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55316
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Lorini wrote:You keep talking costs and I keep talking costs of very expensive lawsuits that would not happen if the police weren't so trigger happy. I think the two go together yes?
Not to the politicians. Training a is fixed cost in the budget. Settlements are one-time off-budget expenses (for city government anyway). Chicago took out loans to pay their "surprise" settlements.

Sure the end cost is more with poor training and settlements. Politically it's easier to kick the can.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Lorini »

Nope, you don't just 'find' $50M in a budget. That's what LA budgets for.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55316
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Lorini wrote:Nope, you don't just 'find' $50M in a budget. That's what LA budgets for.
We have The Machine.
To pay for these lawsuit settlements, Chicago had to borrow money using long-term bonds ― interest on which taxpayers could be paying for the next 30 years. Chicagoans will expect to pay double the cost of the settlements in interest, The Chicago Reporter revealed.
Interestingly, since 2004 the average annual payout total here is just around $50M too. For police misconduct only.

Someone was just awarded $148M several years after being crushed by a bus shelter and losing the use of her legs. That was paid by insurance. Police stuff isn't.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Lorini »

But that's on Chicago. If cities refuse to clean up their damn police then they need to put money toward the inevitable settlements.
Black Lives Matter
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by malchior »

The reserve police officer from the warrantless blood draw died.While that is a tragedy for the man and his family some of the comments captured in the article about what was said by Salt Lake Police Association president Stephen Hartney are enraging. He complained about how the video was released before the investigation was completed. Not that they probably do that all the time when it favors them. Or this winner of a quote:
Asked to assess how Payne handcuffed and dragged Wubbels out of the hospital, Hartney said: "Any resisting of arrest is embarrassing and does not look good," Hartney said.
I guess we are supposed to overlook that it was a completely illegal request and subsequent arrest. This type of behavior is why people are increasingly distrustful of the police.
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55316
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Lorini wrote:But that's on Chicago. If cities refuse to clean up their damn police then they need to put money toward the inevitable settlements.
Exactly. And if politicians weren't involved it would probably happen. Both improving the force and preparing for eventualities. But politicians are involved so their interests drive the thing. Off a cliff
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
Freyland
Posts: 3041
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:03 pm

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Freyland »

malchior wrote:The reserve police officer from the warrantless blood draw died.While that is a tragedy for the man and his family some of the comments captured in the article about what was said by Salt Lake Police Association president Stephen Hartney are enraging. He complained about how the video was released before the investigation was completed. Not that they probably do that all the time when it favors them. Or this winner of a quote:
Asked to assess how Payne handcuffed and dragged Wubbels out of the hospital, Hartney said: "Any resisting of arrest is embarrassing and does not look good," Hartney said.
I guess we are supposed to overlook that it was a completely illegal request and subsequent arrest. This type of behavior is why people are increasingly distrustful of the police.
I think that was a fine quote. It's neutral. It damn's no one, and since the investigation on whether the officer's actions were inappropriate is not complete, it shouldn't damn anyone.
Sims 3 and signature unclear.
User avatar
LawBeefaroni
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55316
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:08 pm
Location: Urbs in Horto, outrageous taxes on everything

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by LawBeefaroni »

Since it wasn't obvious to me until reading the link, thought I'd note that the reserve officer that died was the patient, not the arresting officer.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General
"No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton

MYT
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Lorini »

Freyland wrote:
malchior wrote:The reserve police officer from the warrantless blood draw died.While that is a tragedy for the man and his family some of the comments captured in the article about what was said by Salt Lake Police Association president Stephen Hartney are enraging. He complained about how the video was released before the investigation was completed. Not that they probably do that all the time when it favors them. Or this winner of a quote:
Asked to assess how Payne handcuffed and dragged Wubbels out of the hospital, Hartney said: "Any resisting of arrest is embarrassing and does not look good," Hartney said.
I guess we are supposed to overlook that it was a completely illegal request and subsequent arrest. This type of behavior is why people are increasingly distrustful of the police.
I think that was a fine quote. It's neutral. It damn's no one, and since the investigation on whether the officer's actions were inappropriate is not complete, it shouldn't damn anyone.
Other than it completely overlooks the actual crime that was obvious from the footage, sure. That statement basically blames her for the embarrassment. And maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying here but it sounds like you're fine with that? I'm certainly not.
Black Lives Matter
Freyland
Posts: 3041
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:03 pm

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Freyland »

Lorini wrote:
Freyland wrote:
malchior wrote:The reserve police officer from the warrantless blood draw died.While that is a tragedy for the man and his family some of the comments captured in the article about what was said by Salt Lake Police Association president Stephen Hartney are enraging. He complained about how the video was released before the investigation was completed. Not that they probably do that all the time when it favors them. Or this winner of a quote:
Asked to assess how Payne handcuffed and dragged Wubbels out of the hospital, Hartney said: "Any resisting of arrest is embarrassing and does not look good," Hartney said.
I guess we are supposed to overlook that it was a completely illegal request and subsequent arrest. This type of behavior is why people are increasingly distrustful of the police.
I think that was a fine quote. It's neutral. It damn's no one, and since the investigation on whether the officer's actions were inappropriate is not complete, it shouldn't damn anyone.
Other than it completely overlooks the actual crime that was obvious from the footage, sure. That statement basically blames her for the embarrassment. And maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying here but it sounds like you're fine with that? I'm certainly not.
My point is that the alleged crime is under investigation, and therefore the officers are not officially guilty (your eyes notwithstanding), and therefore he's not going to throw the officers under the bus, *and* she did resist arrest (whether appropriate or not), so him saying what he said is reasonable. Why its neutral towards her is that he described resisting arrest as looking bad/embarrassing, but did not at all rail on any other aspect of her actions. She did resist arrest, and that's what he commented on.

Now, if the officers are found guilty of a crime and this source quotes anything else but contempt for their actions, then by all means, carry on.
Sims 3 and signature unclear.
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by GreenGoo »

I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that conviction is not always the best indicator of wrong doing, particularly where police officers are involved.
User avatar
dbt1949
Posts: 25688
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:34 am
Location: Hogeye Arkansas

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by dbt1949 »

I never have understood the logic of resisting arrest when you're not charged with a crime.
How can you be arrested for doing nothing wrong?
Ye Olde Farte
Double Ought Forty
aka dbt1949
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by GreenGoo »

dbt1949 wrote:I never have understood the logic of resisting arrest when you're not charged with a crime.
How can you be arrested for doing nothing wrong?
Yeah, it's recursive. It doesn't make any sense, but that's the way it is.
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Lorini »

Freyland I disagree. Saying she was an embarrassment is victim blaming. There is a hospital policy which they broke. These 'investigations' are too often trying to find some silly loophole.

Why not FOR ONCE just admit either the policeman was wrong or at least acknowledge what everyone can see on the video. He did neither like we are all friggin blind or something.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Lorini »

GreenGoo wrote:I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that conviction is not always the best indicator of wrong doing, particularly where police officers are involved.
Or that the lack of a conviction means the officer was correct.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by GreenGoo »

Lorini wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that conviction is not always the best indicator of wrong doing, particularly where police officers are involved.
Or that the lack of a conviction means the officer was correct.
Well yeah, that's the corollary.
Freyland
Posts: 3041
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 11:03 pm

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Freyland »

Lorini, it can't be victim blaming if she's not technically a victim. You and I both agree the officer was wrong in his actions and his apparent motivations, but until that is official, she still was resisting arrest.

I'm trying to figure out what the Union leader should have said to answer the question of, "assess the handling of [the nurse's] arrest". Probably something along the lines of having faith in the Dept's investigation into the matter. Of course, the article says he thinks the officers are being treated unfairly, so anything that suggests they could be at fault would be contrary to his line of thinking. It makes sense he would focus on her actions, and he did it without adding commentary about the specific conflict (of whether the police could draw blood or not).
Sims 3 and signature unclear.
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Lorini »

She was assaulted by the officer. She's certainly a victim. They could for once at least not assume we are blind and acknowledge what that video showed. Instead they want to figure out how to spin it so we doubt what we see.
Black Lives Matter
Biyobi
Posts: 5440
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:21 pm
Location: San Gabriel, CA

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Biyobi »

Freyland wrote:Lorini, it can't be victim blaming if she's not technically a victim. You and I both agree the officer was wrong in his actions and his apparent motivations, but until that is official, she still was resisting arrest.

I'm trying to figure out what the Union leader should have said to answer the question of, "assess the handling of [the nurse's] arrest". Probably something along the lines of having faith in the Dept's investigation into the matter. Of course, the article says he thinks the officers are being treated unfairly, so anything that suggests they could be at fault would be contrary to his line of thinking. It makes sense he would focus on her actions, and he did it without adding commentary about the specific conflict (of whether the police could draw blood or not).
She's a victim of false arrest because she refused to comply with an illegal demand. It makes sense that they focus on her actions because there was nothing defensible in his.
Black Lives Matter
User avatar
Punisher
Posts: 3947
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:05 pm

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Punisher »

As soon as a police officer says you are under arrest, regardless of the reasoning, you are under arrest. at that point there is only one thing to do...comply...
If you feel it is an unlawful arrest then the time to debate that is in court, NOT on the scene. You are not going to be un-arrested. If it is unlawful, you sue if thats what you want.
All yourLightning Bolts are Belong to Us
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by GreenGoo »

Unless you feel your life is in danger of course. Then you get to make a choice.

If an officer is already behaving in an aggressive, illogical, illegal manner, then I guess you have to decide what gives you the better chance of survival.

Not an easy call in all situations.
User avatar
Punisher
Posts: 3947
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:05 pm

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Punisher »

GreenGoo wrote:Unless you feel your life is in danger of course. Then you get to make a choice.

If an officer is already behaving in an aggressive, illogical, illegal manner, then I guess you have to decide what gives you the better chance of survival.

Not an easy call in all situations.
nope.. i mean I guess if you truly believe that the officer is specifically trying to kill you for no reason, you can make that choice, but be prepared to live (or not live) with that choice.
You are truly just risking a worse outcome when you resist arrest. Once you are told you are under arrest everything from that point on is from the viewpoint that you are under arrest. If you resist arrest, then that give the officer the right to escalate to make the arrest, including physical force. ... Tasing you, knocking you down, arm bars, baton and OC use, etc.. Just saying you did nothing wrong (even if you didn't) won't make a difference. Plus, if backup arrives that doesn't know the history, all they see is someone resisting arrest as well.
All yourLightning Bolts are Belong to Us
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by GreenGoo »

Yes, really. If you legitimately think you're life is in danger then you get to decide whether you'll go placidly or go out fighting.

You might not believe that cops put peoples' lives in danger, and I may not believe that my life would be in danger during an arrest, that doesn't change the fact that sometimes cops shoot for people questionable reasons, choke them to death, drive a van over rough terrain without properly securing a passenger, and sometimes people believe that if they go peacefully they might die.

There's law, there's order, but you can't sue anyone if you're dead.

Should this be the case? Of course not.

In the nurse's position, I almost certainly would have struggled, just in sheer disbelief and injustice of what was happening. That might have gotten me killed, sure. I wouldn't have resisted because I thought I was going to die, I would have resisted because I literally couldn't believe a cop was abusing his power like that. It wouldn't have been a cognitive decision, and the cop wouldn't care if it was. Struggle this case would be backing away, pulling my arm out of reach when he tried to put a cuff on it, put my hands up with palms out in a warding/placating stance. It still would have ended with me being manhandled. If the nurse had been a guy he probably would have been seriously hurt in the same situation.

I get what you're saying Punisher, and 99 times out of 100 or 999 out of 1000 its true. As an average law abiding, middle income white guy, it's easy for me to agree with you. As this thread illustrates, people are dying even when compliant. I bet if they had a do-over they would probably do things differently. Some people choose differently before they die. Who knows what the outcome would have been in any given situation.
User avatar
dbt1949
Posts: 25688
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:34 am
Location: Hogeye Arkansas

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by dbt1949 »

You're not really green?
Ye Olde Farte
Double Ought Forty
aka dbt1949
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by malchior »

Punisher wrote:As soon as a police officer says you are under arrest, regardless of the reasoning, you are under arrest. at that point there is only one thing to do...comply...
If you feel it is an unlawful arrest then the time to debate that is in court, NOT on the scene. You are not going to be un-arrested. If it is unlawful, you sue if thats what you want.
I think it is even more basic than that. A cop is essentially a trained fighter. They are trained to restrain people safely, protect themselves, etc. The nurse probably doesn't have the benefit of any such training. Neither does the average person. The typical citizen doesn't have experience with law enforcement or being arrested generally. In stressful situations, people have inherent fight or flight instincts that they have to overcome. If that manifests in a bit of shouting and twisting...that should be entirely expected. The police know this and train for it. So in light of that...throwing what she did out as resisting arrest? It probably could be twisted to fit some textbook or legal definition but what meaningful resistance did she actually put up? Did she put anyone in danger by protesting an illegal restraint vocally? No - and more importantly claiming anything but immediate compliance as 'resisting arrest' is part of the police playbook to avoid accountability. The 'union' President certainly knows that playbook and he was throwing that out there as a tried and true way to muddy the water. I don't think the average person watching that video buys that horseshit though.
Greengoo wrote:I get what you're saying Punisher, and 99 times out of 100 or 999 out of 1000 its true. As an average law abiding, middle income white guy, it's easy for me to agree with you. As this thread illustrates, people are dying even when compliant. I bet if they had a do-over they would probably do things differently. Some people choose differently before they die. Who knows what the outcome would have been in any given situation.
This is the meat of it. In balance there is a severe police problem in this country. The police work in a system that does a decent job avoiding accountability for bad behavior consistently. Have you ever noticed that investigations against citizens are usually completed in days or weeks for ordinary crimes but investigations of officers sometimes drag on for *years*. Hearings are delayed. Officers cancel and reschedule. Investigators are swapped out. As said before, there is a playbook for these situations and it is meant to avoid accountability. Considering this system's performance we are supposed to wait for an investigation before judging the remarks for what they are (I'm referring to Freyland's point about neutrality here)? I'll start holding my breath I guess.
User avatar
Punisher
Posts: 3947
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:05 pm

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Punisher »

1) I know for a fact that there are plenty of civilian cases that drag on. It is not just police cases. A lot depends on the charges and the attorneys involved.
2) Specifically for resisting arrest:
In the United States, the laws hold resisting arrest to be a separate crime that may be charged in addition to, or regardless of, any other crime for which a person may be charged. The act of using force to avoid being restrained, fleeing from a police officer to avoid arrest, and threatening a police officer with bodily harm while attempting to elude arrest are all considered crimes.

The purpose of laws against resisting arrest is to protect law enforcement officers in the discharge of their duty, and to protect the public from harm that may be caused by someone violently resisting, or running from police. In many jurisdictions, obstructing or delaying a law enforcement officer in the performance of his duty is also considered resisting, though some jurisdictions use the term “obstructing police officer.” Additionally, in many states, obstructing the duties of an emergency medical technician / Paramedic, and other emergency services personnel are also included in resisting and obstructing laws.

In order to enforce these laws, it is necessary to allow a person to be criminally charged, tried, and convicted for resisting arrest, whether or not the individual is charged in the act for which the arrest was made. In fact, a person can be charged with resisting arrest even if the arrest was not lawful.
Emphasis, mine...
3) Sure there are bad/corrupt cops. Just like in every occupation or population, but I submit that the vast majority are good, decent, lawful people. I also submit that you shouldn't expect every police interaction to go the way of the bad ones. I also submit that all things being equal, complying is the best policy.
All yourLightning Bolts are Belong to Us
User avatar
Lorini
Posts: 8282
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 8:52 am
Location: Santa Clarita, California

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Lorini »

What's the thread title? "Cops behaving badly" We discuss cops behaving badly. I do not believe that the OP's intent was ever to say 'all or most cops behave badly'. That's not what this discussion is about at least not for me. What this discussion is about is bad cops. Cops going into a hospital, assaulting a nurse, as they are in violation of hospital practice are not good cops.

If you want a good cops thread, start it.
Black Lives Matter
malchior
Posts: 24794
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by malchior »

Punisher wrote:1) I know for a fact that there are plenty of civilian cases that drag on. It is not just police cases. A lot depends on the charges and the attorneys involved.
Ok let's restate this clearly - I'd bet money that on balance most if not nearly all police case drags on while most civilian cases are adjudicated quickly. This entire interaction was captured on video and it has been two months. I'm not talking about resolution of the case even. I bet it'd be fairly hard to find a case where the entire 'bad act' was captured in this detail and a civilian wasn't at least charged in this time frame. It'd certainly be an outlier. They haven't even worked out internal discipline yet. Time allows them to manufacturer outs. This happens over and over again. It creates deficiencies that they can challenge down the road about timeliness. It increases the chances of favorable changes for the officer involved. They often have back room support that protects them. This is an outcome of the playbook they run whenever a police officer runs afoul of the law themselves.
3) Sure there are bad/corrupt cops. Just like in every occupation or population, but I submit that the vast majority are good, decent, lawful people. I also submit that you shouldn't expect every police interaction to go the way of the bad ones. I also submit that all things being equal, complying is the best policy.
I agree and my view is that the system is the biggest component in the corruption. As Deming said, you don't have bad employees...you have bad systems. This system is designed to protect bad apples, obscure and hide them, and paper over them. The system operates by paying blood money when things go wrong. That is the likeliest outcome of a police malfeasance case. The officer usually does not even get charged. If they get charged, they will almost certainly not be convicted. If they get fired, they often move around to another department. It is the system that causes these outcomes - the officers largely just operate within its boundaries.
User avatar
GreenGoo
Posts: 42239
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:46 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by GreenGoo »

dbt1949 wrote:You're not really green?
It's more of a hue.
User avatar
Moliere
Posts: 12295
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:57 am
Location: Walking through a desert land

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Moliere »

"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
User avatar
Rip
Posts: 26891
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:34 pm
Location: Cajun Country!
Contact:

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Rip »

User avatar
Moliere
Posts: 12295
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:57 am
Location: Walking through a desert land

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Moliere »

'Crush criminals' balls and make them drink urine‚' Mbalula tells cops
“We must clamp down on them and today I am saying you must be merciless to dangerous criminals. Do not blink when you deal with a criminal‚ run them down if needs be and then you must return fire with fire and protect our people against them‚” he said.

Mbalula said the unit must do what they were notorious for‚ kicking down doors and dishing out dizzying blows‚ and he would deal with the courts.

“Even if you do not have a warrant of arrest‚ slap them. Break the law progressively and let me worry about court cases‚” he said to loud cheers from the units‚ standing to attention in front of him.
I am in the middle of reading Mandela's "A Long Walk To Freedom" so seeing this article is a little depressing considering the source of the quote.
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
User avatar
hepcat
Posts: 51302
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:02 pm
Location: Chicago, IL Home of the triple homicide!

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by hepcat »

It expects better from you. Looks like everyone's a loser today. :(
Covfefe!
User avatar
Moliere
Posts: 12295
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:57 am
Location: Walking through a desert land

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Moliere »

Learn how police union contracts make it more difficult to hold police officers accountable for misconduct.
HOW POLICE UNION CONTRACTS BLOCK ACCOUNTABILITY

Disqualifying misconduct complaints that are submitted too many days after an incident occurs or if an investigation takes too long to complete

Preventing police officers from being interrogated immediately after being involved in an incident or otherwise restricting how, when, or where they can be interrogated

Giving officers access to information that civilians do not get prior to being interrogated

Requiring cities to pay costs related to police misconduct including by giving officers paid leave while under investigation, paying legal fees, and/or the cost of settlements

Preventing information on past misconduct investigations from being recorded or retained in an officer's personnel file

Limiting disciplinary consequences for officers or limiting the capacity of civilian oversight structures and/or the media to hold police accountable.
"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
User avatar
Daehawk
Posts: 63525
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:11 am

Re: Cops behaving badly

Post by Daehawk »

You dont have to be black.

Stupid cop hurt his leg kicking the guy on the ground and had to go to the hospital. Hope he is lame for life. You should see the idiot cop. He had a sloped back forehead. Looks like he has no room for brains and his actions seem to bear that out.

UPDATE: They've demoted the chief.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake.
http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
Post Reply