Cops behaving badly

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:20 pm

Moliere wrote:How Many Cops Need To Be Fired Based On These Facts?

Detective Payne should be ARRESTED. He is a criminal. We have video evidence of his crime. Payne doesn’t just need to be fired, he needs to go to JAIL.

But who is going to arrest him? Another cop?

See, if you want to solve this problem (and I’ll note, YOU DON’T, because secretly you’re willing to suffer the occasional murder and constitutional violation so long as you feel “safe”), you have to arrest ALL THE OTHER COPS in this story that aided and abetted Payne’s behavior.

I have trouble taking an article seriously when it refers to cops as terrorists. It tells me that the author is horribly biased and out to prove his point, not discuss the facts.

Punisher · Post by **Punisher** » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:03 pm

I don’t see one bad apple, I see at least five officers who need to lose their jobs and one who needs to be put in jail, and that’s BEFORE a thorough investigation into the department’s training and procedures has been conducted.

So, this cop was wrong, so because of that, the writer wants to commit more wrongs by firing and arresting people before the investigation?

Here are my thoughts...
1) It appears that Payne and his supervisor were going off bad data, IE a law that had changed and they somehow did not know it. (Training issue)
2) IF the law had not changed, then they would be completely in the right, although still not a good way to handle it. They do have some discretion.
3) Not sure what the big deal/hurry was to get the victim's blood anyway. He was hit head on by a suspect on the run.
4) I'm not sure how I feel about firing if it is a training issue. It is the departments responsibility to make sure it's officers are properly trained. If it was a training issue, IE they were never re-trained when the law changed, I can't see either of them getting fired, but they could maybe get a reprimand for "poor" judgement, but even that might not fly if they believed they were right through training.
5) If it is determined that they did have proper training and were informed of the changes, then I can see an argument for firing.
6) The nurse can still sue/press charges I believe.. depending on the training outcome, charges might not stick, but suing the department/city would..

and as I will always say, the second you are told you are under arrest, is the second you stop arguing about it. that is no longer the time to debate. take the arrest and if it is wrong, deal with it in court. I do realize, that it can be hard to do so in many situations though.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:10 pm

Punisher wrote:and as I will always say, the second you are told you are under arrest, is the second you stop arguing about it. that is no longer the time to debate. take the arrest and if it is wrong, deal with it in court. I do realize, that it can be hard to do so in many situations though.

Reminds me of the t-shirt: the beatings will stop when morale improves.

Little Raven · Post by **Little Raven** » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:20 am

Punisher wrote: (They didn't since the law had changed, but both may then point to a training issue).

If the article is to be believed, the law changed 10 years ago. That's not a training issue...that's gross incompetence.

malchior · Post by **malchior** » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:56 am

The Utah case is interesting for a couple of reasons. One - watch the full video and it is clear the officer was way off the page. He was abusive and out of control from the get go. Why? Hard to say but I do suspect it was to protect another officer. Why? The victim was badly injured because a police chase led to someone hitting him head on. I believe there is a better than even chance that they wanted dirt on the driver in case he pressed charges/sued for the chase. A pure guess but I feel it does fit the facts as we know it now. Otherwise the whole thing doesn't make a ton of sense.

tjg_marantz · Post by **tjg_marantz** » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:20 am

malchior wrote:The Utah case is interesting for a couple of reasons. One - watch the full video and it is clear the officer was way off the page. He was abusive and out of control from the get go. Why? Hard to say but I do suspect it was to protect another officer. Why? The victim was badly injured because a police chase led to someone hitting him head on. I believe there is a better than even chance that they wanted dirt on the driver in case he pressed charges/sued for the chase. A pure guess but I feel it does fit the facts as we know it now. Otherwise the whole thing doesn't make a ton of sense.

That's actually exactly what's going on. It's an attempted cover up from the get go. Btw, the driver he's trying to get blood from to hopefully find drugs or alcohol... off duty cop from Idaho. His Idaho department has issued a thanks to the nurse for protecting his rights.

Mazel tov.

Punisher · Post by **Punisher** » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:13 pm

Little Raven wrote:
Punisher wrote: (They didn't since the law had changed, but both may then point to a training issue).
If the article is to be believed, the law changed 10 years ago. That's not a training issue...that's gross incompetence.

Well, it could be gross incompetence by the training officer... Typically officers don't do training on their own... I'm sure it will come out one way or the other during the investigation...
and I thought I read it was only a year old change somewhere.. not sure though..

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:26 pm

Unless the department is horribly incompetent and has never spoken to a lawyer, those officers all have a paper on file somewhere confirming that they received training in the new version of the law.

Punisher · Post by **Punisher** » Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:28 am

Blackhawk wrote:Unless the department is horribly incompetent and has never spoken to a lawyer, those officers all have a paper on file somewhere confirming that they received training in the new version of the law.

yes. IF they did.. It is not unheard of for departments to miss a training opportunity.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:51 am

Blackhawk wrote:
Moliere wrote:How Many Cops Need To Be Fired Based On These Facts?

Detective Payne should be ARRESTED. He is a criminal. We have video evidence of his crime. Payne doesn’t just need to be fired, he needs to go to JAIL.

But who is going to arrest him? Another cop?

See, if you want to solve this problem (and I’ll note, YOU DON’T, because secretly you’re willing to suffer the occasional murder and constitutional violation so long as you feel “safe”), you have to arrest ALL THE OTHER COPS in this story that aided and abetted Payne’s behavior.
I have trouble taking an article seriously when it refers to cops as terrorists. It tells me that the author is horribly biased and out to prove his point, not discuss the facts.

Unfortunately, to minorities, the uneven application of the law can feel like being terrorized.

Brown in Arpaio's America? Any contact with the law could end with you and your family in a internment center if you don't have your papers.

Black in America? Your chances of being shot and becoming a statistic seem to be a lot higher than they should be, and the data supports the fact that the law will come down heavier than it will on others. Any contact with the police is to be feared.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:31 pm

No doubt, no question. But a piece written solely to attack an enemy the author has predetermined are collectively guilty still isn't a valuable source of much of anything other than seeing the perspective of one extreme viewpoint.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:56 pm

Blackhawk wrote:No doubt, no question. But a piece written solely to attack an enemy the author has predetermined are collectively guilty still isn't a valuable source of much of anything other than seeing the perspective of one extreme viewpoint.

Given that the law is supposed to apply equally to everyone, I think, while hyperbolic, there is enough there that it isn't an extreme viewpoint for some to hold.

Also, it's getting worse, not better.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:24 pm

What would be really good and I think helpful is that if the press would report on the expected tax payer payment for these egregious police behaviors. The city of Los Angeles pays out over $50M a year because of lawsuits based on people successfully suing the police department. LA could certainly use more parks, fewer potholes and a lot of other stuff, but nope, the money goes to people harmed by the police. I wish this was more discussed in the media, people need to understand how much these bad policepeople cost them.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:59 pm

Utah Nurse's Abuse by Police Detective Goes Viral; Does the Outrage Actually Mean Anything?

On Monday, hospital officials revealed that they were so appalled by Payne's behavior that they've changed their rules to control how and where police officers may seek access. (This policy shift had apparently already happened before the publicity caused by the videos.) Police are no longer permitted in patient care areas, and they'll have to go higher up the supervisory ladder when they have requests rather than dealing directly with the nurses.

To see how little support Payne is receiving even from other authority figures, consider the reaction from one of the employers of the comatose patient, William Gray of Idaho. Gray is a trucker, but he's also a reserve police officer with the Rigby Police in Idaho. As Wubbels' story was going viral, the Rigby Police posted a message on Facebook that, in no uncertain terms, defended the nurse's decision to resist Payne's orders...
...
Possibly not getting enough attention in all this is Wubbels' concern that what happened to her might not be an isolated incident. I don't mean the arrest; I mean nurses being pressured to assist police in drawing blood when the cops don't have warrants and the patients are not consenting. In interviews since she's gone public (such as this one with KUTV2), Wubbels has said that her original goal in releasing the videos was to reach nurses and police in rural areas of Utah to "get the education out there" about appropriate conduct in these cases.

At Reason we have regularly documented brutal police searches. Cops frequently run roughshod over citizens' Fourth Amendment rights in zealous attempts to get evidence of even the pettiest of crimes. It would not come as a surprise if other nurses felt like they had little choice but to cooperate with police demands to draw blood, even after the Supreme Court ruled a year ago that a warrant was required under such circumstances.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:25 pm

Being able to easily video these encounters has alerted us to how badly some cops do behave, and that's the first step to changing what's going on.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:39 pm

Is it a "training issue" when police officers can't tell the difference between a 5'10" 170lb adult male and a 5'2" 115lb teenage girl?

Teen girl files claim against police who mistook her for a black male suspect and punched her

It had been a sweltering Sunday when, on a bike ride back from shopping for a Father’s Day gift, Hargrove was suddenly stopped by police officers in Bakersfield, Calif.

The officers had been looking for a suspect — described as a 25- to 30-year-old, bald black man standing 5 feet 10 and weighing about 170 pounds — who had threatened several people with a machete at a nearby grocery store, according to a police report.

Thinking she was that man — and despite her protests — the officers seized on the 5-foot-2, 115-pound Hargrove, in an altercation that escalated until police punched her in the mouth, unleashed a K-9 dog on her and arrested her. It wasn’t until officers placed her in their patrol car that they asked Hargrove’s name and realized she was female — and thus not the suspect they were looking for.

Though police later admitted it was a case of mistaken identity, Hargrove was charged with resisting or delaying an officer and aggravated assault on an officer. It wasn’t until August that those charges against her were dropped, her attorney said.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:09 am

More taxpayer payouts.

Freyland · Post by **Freyland** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:14 am

Given the apparent absence of injuries, it seems even the dog knew they had the wrong person.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:35 am

Because a camera and a gun look so similar! Cop shoots newspaper photographer because he thought the camera (on a tripod no less) was a gun.

Freyland · Post by **Freyland** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:15 am

Lorini wrote:Because a camera and a gun look so similar! Cop shoots newspaper photographer because he thought the camera (on a tripod no less) was a gun.

I'm seriously hoping the quote, "was setting up my camera and tripod" equals 'his tripod was leaning up against the car and looked like a rifle as he was examining his potentially gun-like camera'. I completely respect an officer being anxious about a third party showing up during a traffic stop, and the article suggests it was dark, but I'm struggling with him opening fire without even some sort of verbage or command at the photographer.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:10 am

Thank god he didn't have crutches instead.

morlac · Post by **morlac** » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:06 pm

Rip wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Rip wrote:

Hardly horrifying, he was trying to be sarcastically funny (unwisely) to get the lady to relax. But only a moron would think he was seriously suggesting they do that.
Riiiight.

No one thinks he is saying it is a matter of policy. What is horrifying is the extremely poor judgement and the fact that those words came out of his mouth duing a traffic stop.

That's something you might shrug off at the bar at 4am. Not something to say to a member of the public.
I fully agree, not appropriate. But hardly "horrifying".

Holy shit I know Officer Abbott. I grew up and still live in Cobb County. He used to work high school football games at my school. He busted me twice for underage drinking at parties. He let me go one time though. Never would have imagined him to be racist and don't think he is. Incredibly stupid attempt at poor humour but I would say nothing racist in it. Shocked at the stupidity though. Seriously WTF.

tjg_marantz · Post by **tjg_marantz** » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:14 am

but I would say nothing racist in it.

Well...

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:48 pm

Lorini wrote:Because a camera and a gun look so similar! Cop shoots newspaper photographer because he thought the camera (on a tripod no less) was a gun.

Well if the gun was heavy enough to require a tripod, that would be some serious firepower.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:34 pm

Jaymann wrote:
Lorini wrote:Because a camera and a gun look so similar! Cop shoots newspaper photographer because he thought the camera (on a tripod no less) was a gun.
Well if the gun was heavy enough to require a tripod, that would be some serious firepower.

Rifles often have bipods attached and tripods aren't that unheard of.

Toe · Post by **Toe** » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:01 pm

Jaymann wrote:
Lorini wrote:Because a camera and a gun look so similar! Cop shoots newspaper photographer because he thought the camera (on a tripod no less) was a gun.
Well if the gun was heavy enough to require a tripod, that would be some serious firepower.

I bet his camera looked like...

Spoiler:

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:11 pm

Black driver fails to use his turn signal cop comes to car with his gun drawn. The video is completely NSFW. But the driver has a point.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:12 pm

Lorini wrote:Black driver fails to use his turn signal cop comes to car with his gun drawn. The video is completely NSFW. But the driver has a point.

Absolutely right he does.

And he's speaking for more than just himself.

Xmann · Post by **Xmann** » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:16 pm

Lorini wrote:Black driver fails to use his turn signal cop comes to car with his gun drawn. The video is completely NSFW. But the driver has a point.

wow wow wow. I can't believe what I'm seeing.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:37 am

Cop sites unlicensed hot dog vendor. Proceeds to empty his wallet. You know, as evidence.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:28 pm

Lorini wrote:Black driver fails to use his turn signal cop comes to car with his gun drawn. The video is completely NSFW. But the driver has a point.

As a nation, we are LONG overdue for some kind of drastic police overhaul. This can't continue.

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:43 pm

Think of how many Trump supporters there are out there.
Good luck with that overhaul.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:16 pm

dbt1949 wrote:Think of how many Trump supporters there are out there.
Good luck with that overhaul.

There's a lot more people who don't support him than who do. However we have to (keep) make (ing)our voices heard. Write your city/county reps and tell them you want a police department that gives everyone their civil rights, that isn't racist, that treats people with respect, that follows the law and that enforces the law. Tell them you don't want your tax dollars devoted to settlements because of police misconduct.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:19 pm

With what cops make, good luck with that.

America wants good cops at less than shitty cop wages.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:25 pm

Rip wrote:With what cops make, good luck with that.

America wants good cops at less than shitty cop wages.

Just think of how much more they could make if the taxpayers could pay them instead of settling with aggrieved people. LA pays out $50M in cop settlements, that would go a long way to increase their wages.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:51 pm

Rip wrote:With what cops make, good luck with that.

America wants good cops at less than shitty cop wages.

That has to change. I've long been a proponent of increasing my taxes with goal of retaining better police and teachers. Our future and our safety depend on it.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:00 pm

Chicago has paid out about that average over the past 4 years. $210m over that period.

However in 2017 they are on pace to pay out around $200M in overtime. That's just overtime pay for one year. This after the mayor promised to hire 1,000 more cops. He's has press conferences at the academy and jogged for the cameras with a career class. But has only managed a net increase of 37 coppers. And a net decrease in patrol officers since the biggest gain was detectives. So now there is an OT freeze for the rest of the year and no new cops. It's a mess.

It's not just pay. It's the job. Pay helps, of course, but cops need more support than just a higher pay. They see the worst of the worst and are sent home to self medicate with booze. They need more and better training (practical training, not lawyer-satisfying training) and mental health support that isn't condescending and that doesn't jeopardize their careers.

And yeah, that $50M a year could go a long way to improving things. But we all know that if it wasn't spent in settlements it wouldn't go to the PD. I wonder how much, if any, is insurance money. I know Chicago had to borrow to pay theirs so the taxpayer is also paying interest on that crap.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:09 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:It's not just pay. It's the job. Pay helps, of course, but cops need more support than just a higher pay. They see the worst of the worst and are sent home to self medicate with booze. They need more and better training (practical training, not lawyer-satisfying training) and mental health support that isn't condescending and that doesn't jeopardize their careers.

Training and respect and community involvement to me are part of paying them more. I suppose I should have worded it more carefully. We need to spend more money on police departments and classrooms. I have posted several times case studies for Camden NJ where they trained a bunch of rookie cops in community involvement and De-escalation. The case study was a huge success, except that Camden could not afford to pay the top notch community involved rookie cops they trained and committed to and they were ultimately poached by other PDs.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:24 pm

LordMortis wrote:
Rip wrote:With what cops make, good luck with that.

America wants good cops at less than shitty cop wages.
That has to change. I've long been a proponent of increasing my taxes with goal of retaining better police and teachers. Our future and our safety depend on it.

Highlighted the pertinent component there. It can be hard to find people of the right disposition for police work. A lot of former military folks end up there as a default, and their combat training doesn't help them much when they need to act as psychologists or counselors. The requirements to get in can be pretty low, and training sometimes can be very thin.

LawBeefaroni wrote:It's not just pay. It's the job. Pay helps, of course, but cops need more support than just a higher pay. They see the worst of the worst and are sent home to self medicate with booze. They need more and better training (practical training, not lawyer-satisfying training) and mental health support that isn't condescending and that doesn't jeopardize their careers.

So many ++++'s. I worked in Corrections for a while, and I quickly found myself thinking bad things about people. It's just hard not to when you're rubbing elbows with wife beaters, child molesters, rapists, murderers, drunks, and drug addicts all day, every day. I felt even worse for the police - I mean, I knew what to expect from the guys in cells. Police have no idea what someone's going to turn out to be and they never get called to help children eat a cake or pet someone's dog.

There should be an ongoing requirement for evaluation and recuperation. Be a cop for 6 months, immerse yourself in bunnies and kittens for 6 months.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:46 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:Chicago has paid out about that average over the past 4 years. $210m over that period.

However in 2017 they are on pace to pay out around $200M in overtime. That's just overtime pay for one year. This after the mayor promised to hire 1,000 more cops. He's has press conferences at the academy and jogged for the cameras with a career class. But has only managed a net increase of 37 coppers. And a net decrease in patrol officers since the biggest gain was detectives. So now there is an OT freeze for the rest of the year and no new cops. It's a mess.

It's not just pay. It's the job. Pay helps, of course, but cops need more support than just a higher pay. They see the worst of the worst and are sent home to self medicate with booze. They need more and better training (practical training, not lawyer-satisfying training) and mental health support that isn't condescending and that doesn't jeopardize their careers.

And yeah, that $50M a year could go a long way to improving things. But we all know that if it wasn't spent in settlements it wouldn't go to the PD. I wonder how much, if any, is insurance money. I know Chicago had to borrow to pay theirs so the taxpayer is also paying interest on that crap.

The thing to remember is that the job for police has mostly become two things, maintaining order and collecting money. Solving crimes other than murder is way, way down the list, and preventing crime in any way outside of visibility has mostly disappeared.