Cops behaving badly

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:06 pm

Pyperkub wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:Chicago has paid out about that average over the past 4 years. $210m over that period.

However in 2017 they are on pace to pay out around $200M in overtime. That's just overtime pay for one year. This after the mayor promised to hire 1,000 more cops. He's has press conferences at the academy and jogged for the cameras with a career class. But has only managed a net increase of 37 coppers. And a net decrease in patrol officers since the biggest gain was detectives. So now there is an OT freeze for the rest of the year and no new cops. It's a mess.

It's not just pay. It's the job. Pay helps, of course, but cops need more support than just a higher pay. They see the worst of the worst and are sent home to self medicate with booze. They need more and better training (practical training, not lawyer-satisfying training) and mental health support that isn't condescending and that doesn't jeopardize their careers.

And yeah, that $50M a year could go a long way to improving things. But we all know that if it wasn't spent in settlements it wouldn't go to the PD. I wonder how much, if any, is insurance money. I know Chicago had to borrow to pay theirs so the taxpayer is also paying interest on that crap.
The thing to remember is that the job for police has mostly become two things, maintaining order and collecting money. Solving crimes other than murder is way, way down the list, and preventing crime in any way outside of visibility has mostly disappeared.

Umm, yea, many of them aren't doing too hot on the maintaining order either. For many of them all of their normal priorities have been superseded by the cover/watch your ass priority.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:20 pm

Rip wrote:
Pyperkub wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:Chicago has paid out about that average over the past 4 years. $210m over that period.

However in 2017 they are on pace to pay out around $200M in overtime. That's just overtime pay for one year. This after the mayor promised to hire 1,000 more cops. He's has press conferences at the academy and jogged for the cameras with a career class. But has only managed a net increase of 37 coppers. And a net decrease in patrol officers since the biggest gain was detectives. So now there is an OT freeze for the rest of the year and no new cops. It's a mess.

It's not just pay. It's the job. Pay helps, of course, but cops need more support than just a higher pay. They see the worst of the worst and are sent home to self medicate with booze. They need more and better training (practical training, not lawyer-satisfying training) and mental health support that isn't condescending and that doesn't jeopardize their careers.

And yeah, that $50M a year could go a long way to improving things. But we all know that if it wasn't spent in settlements it wouldn't go to the PD. I wonder how much, if any, is insurance money. I know Chicago had to borrow to pay theirs so the taxpayer is also paying interest on that crap.
The thing to remember is that the job for police has mostly become two things, maintaining order and collecting money. Solving crimes other than murder is way, way down the list, and preventing crime in any way outside of visibility has mostly disappeared.
Umm, yea, many of them aren't doing too hot on the maintaining order either. For many of them all of their normal priorities have been superseded by the cover/watch your ass priority.

Because they're disposable pawns when serve at the pleasure of politicians.

Pyperkub · Post by **Pyperkub** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:43 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Rip wrote:
Pyperkub wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:Chicago has paid out about that average over the past 4 years. $210m over that period.

However in 2017 they are on pace to pay out around $200M in overtime. That's just overtime pay for one year. This after the mayor promised to hire 1,000 more cops. He's has press conferences at the academy and jogged for the cameras with a career class. But has only managed a net increase of 37 coppers. And a net decrease in patrol officers since the biggest gain was detectives. So now there is an OT freeze for the rest of the year and no new cops. It's a mess.

It's not just pay. It's the job. Pay helps, of course, but cops need more support than just a higher pay. They see the worst of the worst and are sent home to self medicate with booze. They need more and better training (practical training, not lawyer-satisfying training) and mental health support that isn't condescending and that doesn't jeopardize their careers.

And yeah, that $50M a year could go a long way to improving things. But we all know that if it wasn't spent in settlements it wouldn't go to the PD. I wonder how much, if any, is insurance money. I know Chicago had to borrow to pay theirs so the taxpayer is also paying interest on that crap.
The thing to remember is that the job for police has mostly become two things, maintaining order and collecting money. Solving crimes other than murder is way, way down the list, and preventing crime in any way outside of visibility has mostly disappeared.
Umm, yea, many of them aren't doing too hot on the maintaining order either. For many of them all of their normal priorities have been superseded by the cover/watch your ass priority.
Because they're disposable pawns when serve at the pleasure of politicians.

Well, more to say that they are there to maintain the order in the areas important to those who influence politicians (those with the money to do so, at least). Sheriff's offices, as expressly political positions can be different, but mostly are even more so.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:49 pm

Psycho tries to cause and watch someone die on the train tracks. Police brass don't think it's necessary to issue alert (Mayor Napoleon wouldn't want to scare the tourists).

Ben Benedict stood near the edge of the Washington Street subway platform, waiting for a late-night train home, when he felt a hard jab to the back and tumbled to the tracks five feet below.

He stopped a foot short of the third rail and immediately looked down the tracks, but didn't see the train yet, according to Benedict. Then he looked up and saw the guy who pushed him. He was staring at Benedict and not saying a word.

Benedict tried to scramble back up but the man kept blocking his way, pointing his finger at him and pacing back and forth. Benedict said he screamed at people on the other side of the platform, but the man tried to push them away until they formed a circle and helped Benedict onto the Blue Line platform.

The man ran off.

23 shots fired at CPD LT. No injuries, police later arrest a guy carrying a 5- round revolver. Yeah, right.

Man pulls gun on woman on the South Side. She fights him, takes gun, shoots him in the hand.

Also a cop shot a guy trying to kill him with a car.Those routine traffic stops and all that.

Officers activated their emergency equipment and pulled over the vehicle, police said. When officers got out of their car, "the vehicle pinned the officer," Stinites said.

A male officer then shot the driver of the vehicle, a 19-year-old man, Stinites said. The 19-year-old driver was pronounced dead at 1:11 a.m., according to the Cook County medical examiner's office.

Just another day in Chicagoland.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:15 am

Texas cop shuts down volunteers helping with floods

Good news. Houston doesn't need any more help from volunteers or your donations.

Rip · Post by **Rip** » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:35 pm

There are certainly a few places where cops are paid plenty.

Wonder why New York property taxes are sky-high, particularly in the Long Island and Lower Hudson Valley suburbs around the city? The Empire Center’s latest analysis flags one key reason: the astounding pay doled out to government workers in those areas — especially uniformed services, like police and firefighters.

For the second year in a row, the center found, 47 of the top 50 highest-paid local-government workers outside New York City were police officers — with five of the top seven on the Town of Ramapo payroll.

The No. 1 earner, Ramapo Police Officer Thomas Donnelly, pulled in $441,968 in the year ending last March. Four other Rockland County cops joined him in the top 10.

The 20 officers in the Nassau County Village of Kings Point (pop. 5,005 in the last Census) had the highest average pay of any group of government workers at $220,088.

We don’t begrudge first responders being paid what they’re worth, but these cops and firefighters, some in tiny hamlets, earn far more than their New York City counterparts.

http://nypost.com/2017/09/13/200000-cop ... p-soaring/

Punisher · Post by **Punisher** » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:32 am

Moliere wrote:Texas cop shuts down volunteers helping with floods

Good news. Houston doesn't need any more help from volunteers or your donations.

I keep trying to find more info on this.. The officer wasn't from the town the people were trying to help, so I wonder where he was from and what the thought process was.
I can only think that they had too many volunteers just showing up and that prevented it from being organized.. Something similar happened with 9/11. My friend and I were stuck in a medical staging area for 2 days near Fort Lee. Everyone trying to get into the city to help were turned away to go to staging areas and were dispatched as needed (we were never called).
In this case, the staging area may have been full.
Otherwise I can't think of a good reason to turn them away. In either case the officer should have made a better attempt at explaining it. Could have been that he was just frustrated in general and let it loose.

tjg_marantz · Post by **tjg_marantz** » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:07 pm

https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/908688993977585665

Asshole.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:34 am

My FB feed was filled with posts about those "hot cops" a few days ago (lots of friends from Gainesville). Then it came out the middle cop is an anti-Semitic Douche. All the "hot cop" posts have suddenly stopped...

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:55 am

Ooops! Cops catch one of their own:

Ex-North Chicago cop surrenders on charges alleging on-duty solicitation of prostitution

""It is truly a disappointment when an officer of the law is charged criminally for breaking the very laws he was sworn to uphold," Wilson said."

I am disappointed too.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:04 pm

It's disappointing that he was charged?

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:14 pm

Max Peck wrote:It's disappointing that he was charged?

That a cop would break the law.

And here's more disappointment:

NYPD cop charged with assaulting Coney Island man over spilled drink enters not guilty plea

A city cop was hit with multiple charges on Monday for allegedly assaulting and intimidating a Coney Island man over a spilled drink.

NYPD Officer O'Keefe Thompson was released on his own recognizance after he was indicted on one count of intimidating a witness, two counts of third-degree assault and two counts of official misconduct.
...
Thompson is accused of roughing up Raymond Crespo at the corner of Mermaid Ave. and W. 32nd St. in Coney Island.

The July 8 attack came after a cup of alcohol was knocked out of Crespo’s hand and splashed on a sidewalk near Thompson, prosecutors said.
...
The following day, when Thompson was off-duty and in plainclothes, he "sought the victim and asked him 'Why you s--- on my name?'" Assistant District Attorney Peter Choi said.

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:01 pm

That's bad when an off-duty cop comes to your house and threatens you. And yes the very act of him showing up is a threat.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:04 pm

Oklahoma City police fatally shoot deaf man who did not respond to commands

A deaf man holding a metal pipe was fatally shot by Oklahoma City police who yelled for him to drop his weapon and get on the ground but did not know he could not hear, a police spokesman said on Wednesday.

An investigation into a hit-and-run accident on Tuesday night led officers to a residence where Magdiel Sanchez, 35, was on the porch, Oklahoma City police spokesman Captain Bo Mathews said during a news conference.

Sanchez was holding a 2-foot-long metal pipe that was wrapped in material and had a leather loop at the end, Mathews told reporters.

Witnesses, who heard the officers yelling commands, shouted that Sanchez was deaf, Mathews said.

Sanchez came off the porch and approached the officers with the pipe in his hand, he said.

Sergeant Christopher Barnes had a weapon drawn and Lieutenant Matthew Lindsey had a Taser drawn. They both fired, hitting Sanchez who was 15 feet away, Mathews said.

“In those situations, very volatile situations when you have a weapon out, you can get what they call tunnel vision, or you could really lock in to just the person that has the weapon that made the threat against you,” Mathews told reporters. “They very well could not have heard everybody yelling around them.”

I'm no de-escalation expert, but simultaneously shooting and tasing a person seems... suboptimal.

Freyland · Post by **Freyland** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:12 pm

Good cop/Bad cop?

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:09 pm

Sanchez came off the porch and approached the officers with the pipe in his hand, he said.

Here's an idea. Don't don't do this.

tjg_marantz · Post by **tjg_marantz** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:20 am

Here's an idea. Tazer him first. Another "justified" shooting I'm sure.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:09 am

When the only variable in play is someone walking with a melee weapon, lethal force should never be an option.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:51 am

Paingod wrote:When the only variable in play is someone walking with a melee weapon, lethal force should never be an option.

How fast do you think someone can close 20 feet? If he gets on an armed officer with that pipe, he'll soon have a handgun. How do you get him to stop walking, once he ignores commands, if not the threat of lethal force? Yeah, he was deaf. Muzzling him with a pistol is a pretty universal stop sign.

tjg_marantz wrote:Here's an idea. Tazer him first. Another "justified" shooting I'm sure.

Tazers aren't magical weapons. They are more for compliance than for self defense and have limited practical applications. Expecting every shooting to be preceded by a tazer attempt is crazy. It's like expecting cops to shoot legs first or to shoot guns out of suspects' hands.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:06 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Paingod wrote:When the only variable in play is someone walking with a melee weapon, lethal force should never be an option.
How fast do you think someone can close 20 feet? If he gets on an armed officer with that pipe, he'll soon have a handgun. How do you get him to stop walking, once he ignores commands, if not the threat of lethal force? Yeah, he was deaf. Muzzling him with a pistol is a pretty universal stop sign.

Then cops should stay back 30 feet. It's not like their guns are going to be ineffective beyond 20' away.

I think you kind of missed the point - cops aren't supposed to show up and put themselves in harm's way so they can stand their ground and kill people. They're supposed to show up and deescalate a situation so it can be resolved as peacefully as possible. If that means they have to keep walking backwards while someone walks forwards, I don't see the issue. You see someone with a lead pipe, you hang back and wait for the guy with a taser to get into position while trying to talk the suspect down.

If this guy had come down screaming off the porch, that's one thing... but what I read sounded like he was walking.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:15 am

30 feet isn't a magic distance. They haven't taken Point Blank Shot.

Police accuracy ratings study (PDF)

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:34 am

Paingod wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:
Paingod wrote:When the only variable in play is someone walking with a melee weapon, lethal force should never be an option.
How fast do you think someone can close 20 feet? If he gets on an armed officer with that pipe, he'll soon have a handgun. How do you get him to stop walking, once he ignores commands, if not the threat of lethal force? Yeah, he was deaf. Muzzling him with a pistol is a pretty universal stop sign.
Then cops should stay back 30 feet. It's not like their guns are going to be ineffective beyond 20' away.

I think you kind of missed the point - cops aren't supposed to show up and put themselves in harm's way so they can stand their ground and kill people. They're supposed to show up and deescalate a situation so it can be resolved as peacefully as possible. If that means they have to keep walking backwards while someone walks forwards, I don't see the issue. You see someone with a lead pipe, you hang back and wait for the guy with a taser to get into position while trying to talk the suspect down.

You're making a lot of assumption about the layout and the situation. Also, cops and evidence will tell you that responding to a domestic dispute are the most dangerous and unpredictable calls police receive. Shit happens fast and the situation is never perfect. They can't just show up and go down the deescalation checklist. They have to show up, assess the situation, identify who is who and who is a potential threat, identify other threats, etc.

If this guy had come down screaming off the porch, that's one thing... but what I read sounded like he was walking.

Walking is a milisecond from running. Put the pipe down and greatly reduce the risk of being shot.

I'm not saying the guy deserved it either. It's a bad outcome but you can't make the assumption that they just showed up and decided to kill a guy.

Paingod · Post by **Paingod** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:34 am

If a cop is 30 feet away and the suspect covers 15 feet in the second it takes the cop to raise his gun and aim, then they have 15 feet left to hit with 75-87% accuracy.

LawBeefaroni wrote:you can't make the assumption that they just showed up and decided to kill a guy.

I'm not saying they did that at all - but they should have handled it differently. Based on the information in the article, the cops had the alternative of stepping back instead of killing him. He was 15 feet away and "approaching" - not rushing or running. I'm sure they had their guns trained/aimed right at him and if he started to sprint, they could have dropped him in a heartbeat. They weren't in any danger and could back up.

Lorini · Post by **Lorini** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:41 am

I'm with Paingod. Shooting people seems to be the first option too often instead of the last.

Reemul · Post by **Reemul** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:29 am

Yep, every single day in the UK our police offers approach offenders like these with these sort of weapons and they don't kill them, pretty much never yet we don't have a lot of Police Officers dying either. Not quite sure how they manage it?

Freyland · Post by **Freyland** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:39 am

Reemul wrote:Yep, every single day in the UK our police offers approach offenders like these with these sort of weapons and they don't kill them, pretty much never yet we don't have a lot of Police Officers dying either. Not quite sure how they manage it?

Flimsier pipes?

Fretmute · Post by **Fretmute** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:48 am

LawBeefaroni wrote:You're making a lot of assumption about the layout and the situation. Also, cops and evidence will tell you that responding to a domestic dispute are the most dangerous and unpredictable calls police receive.

So are you, given that that's not why they were there.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:56 am

The BBC article on the shooting includes a factoid that might shed light on why he didn't just drop the pipe.

The 2ft (0.6m) pipe that Sanchez was holding as he sat on his porch was initially described to officers as a stick.

Neighbours say that Sanchez, who was non-verbal, would use the pipe and his hands to communicate and also to protect against stray dogs near his home where he lived with his father.

Punisher · Post by **Punisher** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:14 am

Max Peck wrote:The BBC article on the shooting includes a factoid that might shed light on why he didn't just drop the pipe.
The 2ft (0.6m) pipe that Sanchez was holding as he sat on his porch was initially described to officers as a stick.

Neighbours say that Sanchez, who was non-verbal, would use the pipe and his hands to communicate and also to protect against stray dogs near his home where he lived with his father.

He was deaf..not blind... Here's a good rule..if a police officer has drawn their weapon on you, stop what you are doing.. don't approach with anything that could be seen as a weapon.
not saying he deserved it, but I don't see this as a cop behaving badly.
Also, guns aren't magical... a single shot does not always take someone down. so if he did run at 30 feet, the extra 10 feet from the "20 foot rule" may not have made a difference.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:36 am

Fretmute wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:You're making a lot of assumption about the layout and the situation. Also, cops and evidence will tell you that responding to a domestic dispute are the most dangerous and unpredictable calls police receive.
So are you, given that that's not why they were there.

Ok, an investigation at a domestic location with a potential suspect. Not a domestic dispute. Tactically, the danger is the same.

It's sad, it really is. I'm happy if something like this never happens again. It's possible to say that the police were not wrong to shoot and also that they may have had alternatives.

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:07 pm

I still think cops are too trigger happy and I do in this case, but I can't put most of the blame on them.
If I'm armed in my yard and some guy comes running at me with a pipe in his hand I'm probably going to shoot him too.

Fretmute · Post by **Fretmute** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:33 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:Ok, an investigation at a domestic location with a potential suspect. Not a domestic dispute. Tactically, the danger is the same.

I'm willing to concede that you might consider a house a danger multiplier. I am unwilling to concede that someone suspected of some property damage, and someone who is presumably angry and has probably already offered violence are in the same ballpark, house or not.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:11 pm

Fretmute wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:Ok, an investigation at a domestic location with a potential suspect. Not a domestic dispute. Tactically, the danger is the same.
I'm willing to concede that you might consider a house a danger multiplier. I am unwilling to concede that someone suspected of some property damage, and someone who is presumably angry and has probably already offered violence are in the same ballpark, house or not.

Well, hit and run isn't always just mere property damage. But ignoring that, the point is that arriving at a house regardless of the reason is a highly uncertain situation. And not all domestic dispute calls are initiated by violence. It could be a noise complaint, whatever. Theyre still consider dangerous. When they roll up to the house they could find anything. It's like a traffic stop that way but they don't have home field or even a neutral field.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:23 pm

Punisher wrote:
Max Peck wrote:The BBC article on the shooting includes a factoid that might shed light on why he didn't just drop the pipe.
The 2ft (0.6m) pipe that Sanchez was holding as he sat on his porch was initially described to officers as a stick.

Neighbours say that Sanchez, who was non-verbal, would use the pipe and his hands to communicate and also to protect against stray dogs near his home where he lived with his father.
He was deaf..not blind... Here's a good rule..if a police officer has drawn their weapon on you, stop what you are doing.. don't approach with anything that could be seen as a weapon.
not saying he deserved it, but I don't see this as a cop behaving badly.
Also, guns aren't magical... a single shot does not always take someone down. so if he did run at 30 feet, the extra 10 feet from the "20 foot rule" may not have made a difference.

My excessively obtuse point was that the dead man used his "stick" as a communication aid. It is feasible that he didn't see his own actions as threatening.

As to whether the incident even belongs in the thread, I'll point out that the excuse given by the police department for why neither police officer "heard" the bystanders shouting at them was that they may have had "tunnel vision." If one has zero situational awareness when employing lethal force, I'd say one is doing one's job badly. If one is not coordinating with fellow police officers on the scene (one officer was attempting to employ nonlethal force via a taser, while the other employed his sidearm), I'd say one is doing one's job badly. YMMV.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:45 pm

Max Peck wrote:
Punisher wrote:
Max Peck wrote:The BBC article on the shooting includes a factoid that might shed light on why he didn't just drop the pipe.
The 2ft (0.6m) pipe that Sanchez was holding as he sat on his porch was initially described to officers as a stick.

Neighbours say that Sanchez, who was non-verbal, would use the pipe and his hands to communicate and also to protect against stray dogs near his home where he lived with his father.
He was deaf..not blind... Here's a good rule..if a police officer has drawn their weapon on you, stop what you are doing.. don't approach with anything that could be seen as a weapon.
not saying he deserved it, but I don't see this as a cop behaving badly.
Also, guns aren't magical... a single shot does not always take someone down. so if he did run at 30 feet, the extra 10 feet from the "20 foot rule" may not have made a difference.
My excessively obtuse point was that the dead man used his "stick" as a communication aid. It is feasible that he didn't see his own actions as threatening.

He also used it as an improvised weapon to fend off dogs.

Max Peck wrote:
As to whether the incident even belongs in the thread, I'll point out that the excuse given by the police department for why neither police officer "heard" the bystanders shouting at them was that they may have had "tunnel vision." If one has zero situational awareness when employing lethal force, I'd say one is doing one's job badly. If one is not coordinating with fellow police officers on the scene (one officer was attempting to employ nonlethal force via a taser, while the other employed his sidearm), I'd say one is doing one's job badly. YMMV.

That's a common thread in lethal shootings. Its human biology in a high stress survival situation. Not sure how you train it away other than engaging in a lot of lethal shootings. That said, I agree, it can be mitigated. Not sure what the answer is.

As for coordinating, shit can go pear in miliseconds. There's not a lot of C&C that can go down. Hell, it's possible that the sound of the tazer being deployed caused the other officer to fire.

Punisher · Post by **Punisher** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:12 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:
Max Peck wrote:
Punisher wrote:
Max Peck wrote:The BBC article on the shooting includes a factoid that might shed light on why he didn't just drop the pipe.
The 2ft (0.6m) pipe that Sanchez was holding as he sat on his porch was initially described to officers as a stick.

Neighbours say that Sanchez, who was non-verbal, would use the pipe and his hands to communicate and also to protect against stray dogs near his home where he lived with his father.
He was deaf..not blind... Here's a good rule..if a police officer has drawn their weapon on you, stop what you are doing.. don't approach with anything that could be seen as a weapon.
not saying he deserved it, but I don't see this as a cop behaving badly.
Also, guns aren't magical... a single shot does not always take someone down. so if he did run at 30 feet, the extra 10 feet from the "20 foot rule" may not have made a difference.
My excessively obtuse point was that the dead man used his "stick" as a communication aid. It is feasible that he didn't see his own actions as threatening.

He also used it as an improvised weapon to fend off dogs.

I also doubt that any reasonable person who didn't know him could reasonably come to the conclusion that he used it to communicate with.
I can't even come up with a good reason for a deaf person to do so.. What does the pipe do that pointing can't?

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:17 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:That's a common thread in lethal shootings. Its human biology in a high stress survival situation. Not sure how you train it away other than engaging in a lot of lethal shootings. That said, I agree, it can be mitigated. Not sure what the answer is.

The answer is training.

GreenGoo · Post by **GreenGoo** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:19 pm

We could ask him...guess not.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:42 pm

Max Peck wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:That's a common thread in lethal shootings. Its human biology in a high stress survival situation. Not sure how you train it away other than engaging in a lot of lethal shootings. That said, I agree, it can be mitigated. Not sure what the answer is.
The answer is training.

That's the mitigation I was talking about. But all the training in the world isn't the same as being there.

It also works better for military and SWAT where the ROE are much more cut and dry. Get in scene, see threat/enemy, shoot threat/enemy. For patrol officers it's not quite so black and white.

And who's willing to pay for it? You're talking thousands a day for what needs to be, to be effective, onging and regular training.

Max Peck · Post by **Max Peck** » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:51 pm

Punisher wrote:I also doubt that any reasonable person who didn't know him could reasonably come to the conclusion that he used it to communicate with.

I am really, really bad at communicating my point. Maybe I need to get myself a pipe...

I didn't say anything about the officer's perception. Obviously the cops thought it was threatening, or else they wouldn't have simultaneously shot and tased him, bro. I simply noted that the dead man might not have been thinking "Hey, this thing makes me look like a dangerous dude. Maybe I should get rid of it." if he used it as a communication aid (among other things).

Also, it's too bad that there weren't any bystanders who did know him and could have attempted to communicate with the police officers in an attempt to de-escalate the situation.

Punisher wrote:I can't even come up with a good reason for a deaf person to do so.. What does the pipe do that pointing can't?

Damned if I know. It doesn't change that fact that he did use it in that manner, according to people that knew him. At any rate, it's moot. The only person who knows what was going through Magdiel Sanchez's mind when he stepped off his father's front porch isn't in a position to enlighten us.

Finally, here's another factoid:

A family spokesman also said Sanchez was developmentally disabled.