Telegraph UK wrote:A Boeing 777 believed to be carrying 295 people has crashed on the border between Ukraine and Russia
Interfax news agency are claiming that a Malaysian passenger plane has crashed in Ukraine, near the Russian border.
"A Boeing Malaysian Airlines that was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur began to descend about 50km before entering Russian airspace, and was subsequently found burning on the ground in Ukraine," an aviation source told Interfax.
Interfax said that 295 people were on board at the time.
Awful news.
Queue the conspiracy theories.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
malchior wrote:It was reported shot down by a government minister's adviser so it probably is not too far off the mark.
Yeah, given that pictures of long range launchers in rebel hands have been surfacing on the internet the last few days I think it's fairly likely that it was accidentally shot down by rebels, but in situations like this none of the actors involved can be completely trusted. Reuters reportedly already has a reporter at the crash site, and US satellites will likely be able to spot if there was a missile launch, so we'll probably know for sure soon enough.
One (accident) doesn't bother me, and I am certainly no conspiracy theorist, but the coincidence disbelief bar is pretty high here.
It's likely just a sad coincidence that this was a MA plane. If it was indeed shot down the only real way it might be the airline's fault is if the plane's transponder was malfunctioning somehow.
malchior wrote:It was reported shot down by a government minister's adviser so it probably is not too far off the mark.
Yeah, given that pictures of long range launchers in rebel hands have been surfacing on the internet the last few days I think it's fairly likely that it was accidentally shot down by rebels, but in situations like this none of the actors involved can be completely trusted. Reuters reportedly already has a reporter at the crash site, and US satellites will likely be able to spot if there was a missile launch, so we'll probably know for sure soon enough.
One (accident) doesn't bother me, and I am certainly no conspiracy theorist, but the coincidence disbelief bar is pretty high here.
It's likely just a sad coincidence that this was a MA plane. If it was indeed shot down the only real way it might be the airline's fault is if the plane's transponder was malfunctioning somehow.
Damn, but the plane should have been at cruising altitude (around 32K to 40K feet, depending on several things) considering the route, and the location of the shoot down. Pretty damn high for a rebel controlled rocket, no? I am completely ignorant in terms of weapons of warfare, so maybe not surprising to some of you.
Sepiche wrote:
It's likely just a sad coincidence that this was a MA plane. If it was indeed shot down the only real way it might be the airline's fault is if the plane's transponder was malfunctioning somehow.
Yeah but it doesn't matter, that airline is cursed or something
Terrible news again, sigh
Isgrimnur wrote:
His name makes me think of a small, burrowing rodent anyway.
Carpet_pissr wrote:
Damn, but the plane should have been at cruising altitude (around 32K to 40K feet, depending on several things) considering the route, and the location of the shoot down. Pretty damn high for a rebel controlled rocket, no? I am completely ignorant in terms of weapons of warfare, so maybe not surprising to some of you.
Yeah, it was cruising at around 33,000 ft. which is well out of range of shoulder fired missiles like the rebels have previously been using, but just recently there has been evidence that the rebels have gotten some longer range AA launchers like the buk:
I don't think it's much of a conspiracy theory to think it was shot down.
I'm thinking of more elaborate conspiracy theories. Flight 370 disappeared on March 8. March 8 saw the massing of Russian troops at and over the Ukrainian border and March 9th saw confirmation of Russian troops in Ukraine. But the world's attention was focused on the hunt for the airliner.
Coincidence? Yes. Tinfoil hat fodder? Yes.
Last edited by LawBeefaroni on Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
If it was Russia I have the feeling that they wanted an excuse to go into Ukraine. If it was Ukraine then they did it to turn the world against the separatists
I'm surprised commercial airliners that are not flying to the region would be routed through a conflict area anyway. I'm now wondering how common this is.
If there was any doubt the rebels had access to long range AA here's a ITAR-TASS article from a few weeks ago that seems relevant now: http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738262
DONETSK, June 29, /ITAR-TASS/. Self-defence forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic have taken control over a missile defence army unit equipped with Buk missile defence systems, the press service of the Donetsk People’s Republic told Itar-Tass on Sunday.
Archinerd wrote:I'm surprised commercial airliners that are not flying to the region would be routed through a conflict area anyway. I'm now wondering how common this is.
The FAA ordered US planes to avoid that area a while back, and the UK reportedly did so a few days ago, but they are the only ones as far as I know.
Who controls the crash site? I imagine there is some important evidence being looked for or destroyed depending on the shooter and the answer.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
Sepiche wrote:If there was any doubt the rebels had access to long range AA here's a ITAR-TASS article from a few weeks ago that seems relevant now: http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738262
DONETSK, June 29, /ITAR-TASS/. Self-defence forces of the Donetsk People’s Republic have taken control over a missile defence army unit equipped with Buk missile defence systems, the press service of the Donetsk People’s Republic told Itar-Tass on Sunday.
Archinerd wrote:I'm surprised commercial airliners that are not flying to the region would be routed through a conflict area anyway. I'm now wondering how common this is.
The FAA ordered US planes to avoid that area a while back, and the UK reportedly did so a few days ago, but they are the only ones as far as I know.
You have to love that on the same page as the above-linked ITAR-TASS story, there's a link to another ITAR-TASS story from today proclaiming that the separatists . . . excuse me, "self-defense forces of the Donetsk People's Republic" do not possess Buk missile systems but the Ukrainian's moved their Buk missile systems to the area on Wednesday:
MOSCOW, July 17. /ITAR-TASS/. Ukraine’s armed forces dispatched the Buk anti-aircraft missile system battalion to the area of the city of Donetsk on Wednesday, a well-informed source said referring to the data recording system.
Another battalion of the same weapons is said to be in the process of embarkation in the city of Kharkiv, northwest of Donetsk, the source said adding that the aircraft at an altitude of over 10,000 meters could be shot down only with the weapons of the S-300 or Buk (Beech) missile systems.
In the meantime, militias of the self-proclaimed republics of Donetsk and Luhansk have said they do not possess armament systems of this class.
Just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there -- Radiohead
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Drazzil wrote:Russian or Ukrainian false flag operation.
If it was Russia I have the feeling that they wanted an excuse to go into Ukraine. If it was Ukraine then they did it to turn the world against the separatists
I'm sure that you have some compelling evidence underlying your certainty. Quick, go tell U.S. investigators!
Drazzil wrote:Russian or Ukrainian false flag operation.
If it was Russia I have the feeling that they wanted an excuse to go into Ukraine. If it was Ukraine then they did it to turn the world against the separatists
I'm sure that you have some compelling evidence underlying your certainty. Quick, go tell U.S. investigators!
There are some accounts - unfortunately in Russian - that the rebels were tweeting they have seized a Buk and had used it to shoot down .ua military aircraft on 6/29. Another account claims that they are now quickly trying to scrub them as if that is going to help. Digital might not be forever but it might as well be.
I can't think of a reason for shooting this plane down other than to say the others side did it and must pay. What good could possibly come from your side shooting down an airliner?
McNutt wrote:I can't think of a reason for shooting this plane down other than to say the others side did it and must pay. What good could possibly come from your side shooting down an airliner?
I think odds are right now it was a mistake and they thought they were shooting at a military aircraft.
McNutt wrote:I can't think of a reason for shooting this plane down other than to say the others side did it and must pay. What good could possibly come from your side shooting down an airliner?
Maybe if you didn't think it was a commercial airliner?
33,000 feet is pretty far away and untrained radar/missile operators might not be able to identify what they're shooting at. Not sure though, I've never used one of those things.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
"In the vicinity of Torez, we just downed a plane, an AN-26. It is lying somewhere in the Progress Mine. We have issued warnings not to fly in our airspace. We have video confirming. The bird fell on a waste heap. Residential areas were not hit. Civilians were not injured."
The AN-26 is a Soviet-built twin-engine transport plane used by the Ukrainian military
Either this guy knows nothing about planes, or he's not boasting about taking down a 777.
McNutt wrote:Holy crap! If that guy is talking about the 777 by mistake that is huge.
At 33,000 feet it would be hard to tell. Well, except that that prop plane would never be at 33,000 feet.
We take trained first-world militaries for granted. When untrained, unconstrained actors get hold of first-world hardware, the unintentioned can and does happen.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
But this isn't something they can just blame on the other side. If they claimed to shoot down a different plane in the same region then that can pretty easily be shown false. They will have to accept that their side shot down a 777 and live with the fallout.
McNutt wrote:Holy crap! If that guy is talking about the 777 by mistake that is huge.
At 33,000 feet it would be hard to tell. Well, except that that prop plane would never be at 33,000 feet.
We take trained first-world militaries for granted. When untrained, unconstrained actors get hold of first-world hardware, the unintentioned can and does happen.
Yup. The fellas that supposedly were the recipients of this fine gift of a anti-aircraft system may not exactly be the first or second string of radar air defense operators.
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McNutt wrote:But this isn't something they can just blame on the other side. If they claimed to shoot down a different plane in the same region then that can pretty easily be shown false. They will have to accept that their side shot down a 777 and live with the fallout.
Yep, the Ukrainian can't deal with them, send in some real army to take care of the "problem" shouldn't take too long we know where they are.
Isgrimnur wrote:
His name makes me think of a small, burrowing rodent anyway.
Vorret wrote:Yep, the Ukrainian can't deal with them, send in some real army to take care of the "problem" shouldn't take too long we know where they are.
WYBaugh wrote:You guys know if there is just one debris field or is it scattered? If hit by a missle and at that altitude it would scatter some?
From what I've read a fairly large chunk of the fuselage landed in one area, but the vast majority of the plane is spread out over a large area consistent with it exploding in midair and breaking apart.
