WYBaugh wrote:You guys know if there is just one debris field or is it scattered? If hit by a missle and at that altitude it would scatter some?
From what I've read a fairly large chunk of the fuselage landed in one area, but the vast majority of the plane is spread out over a large area consistent with it exploding in midair and breaking apart.
Thanks Sepiche. Was looking at a list of photos but it was hard to tell if it was from separate areas.
A co-worker is stating he saw a video that makes him think it wasn't a missle attack...I'd have to say he's looking at a bogus video.
Last edited by WYBaugh on Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vorret wrote:Yep, the Ukrainian can't deal with them, send in some real army to take care of the "problem" shouldn't take too long we know where they are.
I cannot parse this sentence.
I read it as:
Yep, since the Ukrainian army can't deal with them, someone should send in a real army to take care of the "problem." It shouldn't take too long since we know where they are.
I hear it in Vladimir Putin's voice.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
Carpet_pissr wrote:
Damn, but the plane should have been at cruising altitude (around 32K to 40K feet, depending on several things) considering the route, and the location of the shoot down. Pretty damn high for a rebel controlled rocket, no? I am completely ignorant in terms of weapons of warfare, so maybe not surprising to some of you.
Yeah, it was cruising at around 33,000 ft. which is well out of range of shoulder fired missiles like the rebels have previously been using, but just recently there has been evidence that the rebels have gotten some longer range AA launchers like the buk:
They probably can't operate these systems even if they possess them, according to what I have read.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
Carpet_pissr wrote:
Damn, but the plane should have been at cruising altitude (around 32K to 40K feet, depending on several things) considering the route, and the location of the shoot down. Pretty damn high for a rebel controlled rocket, no? I am completely ignorant in terms of weapons of warfare, so maybe not surprising to some of you.
Yeah, it was cruising at around 33,000 ft. which is well out of range of shoulder fired missiles like the rebels have previously been using, but just recently there has been evidence that the rebels have gotten some longer range AA launchers like the buk:
They probably can't operate these systems even if they possess them, according to what I have read.
Always the possibility that it was an over-zealous/panicky Ukrainian radar operator that pulled the trigger but being deep in rebel controlled territory and supposedly the plane was heading away from Ukraine, I doubt it. We shall see in the next few days.
Black lives matter!
Wise words of warning from Smoove B: Oh, how you all laughed when I warned you about the semen. Well, who's laughing now?
I just read that the rebels sent the black box to moscow. Is that like having the fox gaurd the henhouse?
Shouldn't that black box go to some third party? I could care less if it is the US, send it to China, or Japan, or hell Australia.
<sigh> Hope this doesn't cause the US to get involved via the UN or something...
Difficulties mastered are opportunities won. - Winston Churchill
Sheesh, this is one small box. Thankfully, everything's packed in nicely this time. Not too tight nor too loose (someone's sig in 3, 2, ...). - Hepcat
Vorret wrote:Yep, the Ukrainian can't deal with them, send in some real army to take care of the "problem" shouldn't take too long we know where they are.
I cannot parse this sentence.
lol, sorry, it was a bit harsh, I meant to say that the Ukraine can't obviously deal with the problem themselves and if it's proven that the "rebels" did this, maybe NATO could give them some "help" to resolve the problem.
Isgrimnur wrote:
His name makes me think of a small, burrowing rodent anyway.
I would assume that any Ukrainian SAMs (like the Buk) that have fallen into separatist hands are being overseen by the separatists' Russian sponsors. If nothing else, they don't want rookies shooting down Russian planes if push comes to shove.
Alexander Borodai, leader of the self-styled Donetsk People's Republic which is defying the Ukrainian government, has been quoted as saying a truce could be agreed for "several days" to allow investigations and recovery operations to take place.
A Malaysia Airlines jetliner with 295 people on board was shot out of the sky over Ukraine on Thursday by a surface-to-air missile, U.S. officials told NBC News.
U.S. intelligence analysts were trying to determine whether the missile was launched by separatists in Ukraine or by Russian forces positioned across the border from the crash site, the officials said.
Carpet_pissr wrote:
Damn, but the plane should have been at cruising altitude (around 32K to 40K feet, depending on several things) considering the route, and the location of the shoot down. Pretty damn high for a rebel controlled rocket, no? I am completely ignorant in terms of weapons of warfare, so maybe not surprising to some of you.
Yeah, it was cruising at around 33,000 ft. which is well out of range of shoulder fired missiles like the rebels have previously been using, but just recently there has been evidence that the rebels have gotten some longer range AA launchers like the buk:
They probably can't operate these systems even if they possess them, according to what I have read.
Always the possibility that it was an over-zealous/panicky Ukrainian radar operator that pulled the trigger but being deep in rebel controlled territory and supposedly the plane was heading away from Ukraine, I doubt it. We shall see in the next few days.
Always the possibility that it was a gust of wind from Howard Stern's ass.
Whoever shot it down probably couldn't identify it and so just shot at it.
The Russians I'm sure could identify it. I'd be willing to bet the Ukrainians could identify it.
So that just leaves the separatists, who are report having the BUK that could do the job. I'm sure it's a separate system that identifies the planes. That's the way we used to do it. I used to work on such things.
WYBaugh wrote:You guys know if there is just one debris field or is it scattered? If hit by a missle and at that altitude it would scatter some?
From what I've read a fairly large chunk of the fuselage landed in one area, but the vast majority of the plane is spread out over a large area consistent with it exploding in midair and breaking apart.
Thanks Sepiche. Was looking at a list of photos but it was hard to tell if it was from separate areas.
A co-worker is stating he saw a video that makes him think it wasn't a missle attack...I'd have to say he's looking at a bogus video.
TV news said it was scattered over 9 miles.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
Australian media are reporting that more than 100 of those on board were headed to the International AIDS Conference, which starts in Melbourne this weekend. I've been to that conference several times; it's an amazing collection of scientists and activists working to end the AIDS epidemic. What a terrible, terrible loss.
Anyone else figure that absolutely nothing will be done about this?
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
dbt1949 wrote:Whoever shot it down probably couldn't identify it and so just shot at it.
The Russians I'm sure could identify it. I'd be willing to bet the Ukrainians could identify it.
So that just leaves the separatists, who are report having the BUK that could do the job. I'm sure it's a separate system that identifies the planes. That's the way we used to do it. I used to work on such things.
Yes, I heard an expert on NPR tonight state that he was all but certain that the rebels shot it down. He said that the Ukrainian air defense system would be linked in to the civilian system so that they could track planes in their air space. The rebels would not have that link.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. – G.K. Chesterton
Russia should step away from the area. They should condemn the attack and tell the rebels to work it out. If they want to join them then work something out. Then remove their presence from the area.
As for world response to it i have no idea. When it comes to Muslims and Russians though the US seems to not give a shit. Whatever is done it should fit the crime.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
Daehawk wrote:Anyone else figure that absolutely nothing will be done about this?
You mean beyond lots of finger pointing, right?
yes. which most likely is all that will happen.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
dbt1949 wrote:Whoever shot it down probably couldn't identify it and so just shot at it.
The Russians I'm sure could identify it. I'd be willing to bet the Ukrainians could identify it.
So that just leaves the separatists, who are report having the BUK that could do the job. I'm sure it's a separate system that identifies the planes. That's the way we used to do it. I used to work on such things.
Yes, I heard an expert on NPR tonight state that he was all but certain that the rebels shot it down. He said that the Ukrainian air defense system would be linked in to the civilian system so that they could track planes in their air space. The rebels would not have that link.
Someone else also said the rebels have all that Russian tech with no idea about how it works other than firing it. But really...i just saw a plane today and knew what it was.........fight jets are tiny and do not ply that high and leave double contrails and are bright and shiny........this was either on purpose or done but total idiots....most likely both.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
dbt1949 wrote:Whoever shot it down probably couldn't identify it and so just shot at it.
The Russians I'm sure could identify it. I'd be willing to bet the Ukrainians could identify it.
So that just leaves the separatists, who are report having the BUK that could do the job. I'm sure it's a separate system that identifies the planes. That's the way we used to do it. I used to work on such things.
Yes, I heard an expert on NPR tonight state that he was all but certain that the rebels shot it down. He said that the Ukrainian air defense system would be linked in to the civilian system so that they could track planes in their air space. The rebels would not have that link.
Someone else also said the rebels have all that Russian tech with no idea about how it works other than firing it. But really...i just saw a plane today and knew what it was.........fight jets are tiny and do not ply that high and leave double contrails and are bright and shiny........this was either on purpose or done but total idiots....most likely both.
When you fire one of those things you can't even see the target visually. The radar blips between a passenger jet and a large military transport are practically indistinguishable.
dbt1949 wrote:Whoever shot it down probably couldn't identify it and so just shot at it.
The Russians I'm sure could identify it. I'd be willing to bet the Ukrainians could identify it.
So that just leaves the separatists, who are report having the BUK that could do the job. I'm sure it's a separate system that identifies the planes. That's the way we used to do it. I used to work on such things.
Yes, I heard an expert on NPR tonight state that he was all but certain that the rebels shot it down. He said that the Ukrainian air defense system would be linked in to the civilian system so that they could track planes in their air space. The rebels would not have that link.
Someone else also said the rebels have all that Russian tech with no idea about how it works other than firing it. But really...i just saw a plane today and knew what it was.........fight jets are tiny and do not ply that high and leave double contrails and are bright and shiny........this was either on purpose or done but total idiots....most likely both.
When you fire one of those things you can't even see the target visually. The radar blips between a passenger jet and a large military transport are practically indistinguishable.
Exactly.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
I hate people who do this sort of thing. However, his condescending "Well you're a dumbass, aren't ya?" to that poor reporter who obviously didn't hear what he said earlier will stick with me for a long time and made me laugh.
Does Howard Stern ever talk about people who do this? Does he encourage it?
Flower shop in Holland. Both owners were killed over Ukraine. Now the flowers are for them...
“The yellow signs at the flower shop,” Mr. Rugman explains, instruct the mailman to leave letters “next door, where the shopkeeper, Michel, is in tears.”
There are similar tributes outside the Dutch embassies in Kiev and Moscow. A sign left among the flowers in the Russian capital reads, “Forgive Us!” according to Kevin Rothrock, a Global Voices blogger.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
I hate people who do this sort of thing. However, his condescending "Well you're a dumbass, aren't ya?" to that poor reporter who obviously didn't hear what he said earlier will stick with me for a long time and made me laugh.
Does Howard Stern ever talk about people who do this? Does he encourage it?
When I first heard it, I didn't know it was a prank, and I also didn't hear the ass gust part, so the "Dumbass" bit really came out of left field. I had to Google the SSgt's name looking for an explanation.
dbt1949 wrote:Whoever shot it down probably couldn't identify it and so just shot at it.
The Russians I'm sure could identify it. I'd be willing to bet the Ukrainians could identify it.
So that just leaves the separatists, who are report having the BUK that could do the job. I'm sure it's a separate system that identifies the planes. That's the way we used to do it. I used to work on such things.
Yes, I heard an expert on NPR tonight state that he was all but certain that the rebels shot it down. He said that the Ukrainian air defense system would be linked in to the civilian system so that they could track planes in their air space. The rebels would not have that link.
Someone else also said the rebels have all that Russian tech with no idea about how it works other than firing it. But really...i just saw a plane today and knew what it was.........fight jets are tiny and do not ply that high and leave double contrails and are bright and shiny........this was either on purpose or done but total idiots....most likely both.
When you fire one of those things you can't even see the target visually. The radar blips between a passenger jet and a large military transport are practically indistinguishable.
Exactly.
They've said countless times on tv now that if trained you can tell the difference. The Ukraine and Russia both would know the difference...the rebels would not have enough training to tell. But seriously...go and look up..
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
However, circumstantial evidence is piling up that rebels not only obtained at least one BUK mobile air defense system, but that they bragged about it in widely published Russian media reports late last month. Pro-Kremlin propagandist Sergei Kurginyan, who has been in close touch with rebel leaders, claimed a few days ago that he had arranged for "competent people" to be dispatched from Russia to teach the rebels how to use the weapon.
Daehawk wrote:
They've said countless times on tv now that if trained you can tell the difference. The Ukraine and Russia both would know the difference...the rebels would not have enough training to tell. But seriously...go and look up..
It's been said several times here too. Either they weren't properly trained or they intentionally targeted a commercial airliner.
You can't go look up if you are sitting at the controls.
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
While early Buk had a day radar tracking system 9Sh38 (similar was used for example on Kub, Tor and Osa missile system), its current design can be fitted with a combined optical tracking system with a thermal camera and a laser range-finder for passive tracking of the target.
Airlines fly over most trouble spots, says Mikael Robertsson, co-founder of Flight radar24. They have to get from A to B in the most efficient manner possible. Syria is probably the only airspace that everyone avoids
Daehawk wrote:Anyone else figure that absolutely nothing will be done about this?
I'm sure certain types of people will think that. Out of curiosity, what do you think should (or can be) be done?
I'm not exactly sure what could be done by anyone. Any type of UN Sanctions against the rebels will be blocked by the Russians and any attempt from outside military forces that had citizens on that flight will just bring the Russians into the fight.
I guess one of the Nato allies could try to evoke Article 5, but that would be seen as using a sledgehammer on a tack.
Archinerd wrote:BBC has an article that gives some answer to my earlier question about how common it is for commercial flights to fly over conflict areas.
Airlines fly over most trouble spots, says Mikael Robertsson, co-founder of Flight radar24. They have to get from A to B in the most efficient manner possible. Syria is probably the only airspace that everyone avoids
I bet that will change a bit now. At least for a while.
Guarantee you that someone will be tasked with the following question:
'Given our existing routes, how much fuel thus money would be spent avoiding conflict zones, vs. the cost of say one airline crash per 3 years/5 years/10 years?' Might not be a direct question to someone, but I would bet a lot of money that a higher up will ask for the data to determine which scenario "wins" in terms of cost.
dbt1949 wrote:Whoever shot it down probably couldn't identify it and so just shot at it.
The Russians I'm sure could identify it. I'd be willing to bet the Ukrainians could identify it.
So that just leaves the separatists, who are report having the BUK that could do the job. I'm sure it's a separate system that identifies the planes. That's the way we used to do it. I used to work on such things.
Yes, I heard an expert on NPR tonight state that he was all but certain that the rebels shot it down. He said that the Ukrainian air defense system would be linked in to the civilian system so that they could track planes in their air space. The rebels would not have that link.
Someone else also said the rebels have all that Russian tech with no idea about how it works other than firing it. But really...i just saw a plane today and knew what it was.........fight jets are tiny and do not ply that high and leave double contrails and are bright and shiny........this was either on purpose or done but total idiots....most likely both.
When you fire one of those things you can't even see the target visually. The radar blips between a passenger jet and a large military transport are practically indistinguishable.
Exactly.
They've said countless times on tv now that if trained you can tell the difference. The Ukraine and Russia both would know the difference...the rebels would not have enough training to tell. But seriously...go and look up..
Because guys on TV always know.
It is easily distinguishable if all planes are squaking IFF and you have the equipment to interrogate them and the ability to work it. I doubt they even had IFF interrogation equipment. Minus that they ARE NOT easy to distinguish at all. In fact mnay of the military transports are built on the same airframes the commercial planes are built from.
Khmuryi: Sergei Nikolaevich Petrovskiy, year of birth 1964, officer of Main Intelligence Directorate of Russian Federation, Deputy Chief of Ihor Girkin on Intelligence, at the time of the interception he was in Donetsk.
“Buryat” – militant of terrorist organization “DNR” (to be indentified).
Buryat: – Where should we load this beauty, Nikolaievich?
Khmuryi: Which one? This one?
B: Yes, the one I've brought. I'm already in Donetsk.
K: Is it the one I'm thinking about? “B...,”M” one?
B: Yes, yes, yes. “BUK”,”BUK”.
K: Is it on a tractor?
B: Yes, it's on it. We need to unload it somewhere, in order to hide.
K: Is it with a crew?
B: Yes, with the crew.
K: Don't hide it anywhere. She'll go there now.
July 17, 2014
Khmuryi: – Tell me, have you brought me one or two?
Buryat: One, one. Because they had a misunderstanding there. They didn't give us a tug. We loaded it and went at their own pace.
K: Did it go on her own or on a tug?
B: It crossed the line (border).
H: And now have you brought it on a tug? Don't put in anywhere... I'll tell now where it should go, it will go together with “Vostok” tanks.
Talks between terrorists, July 17, 2014
Khmuryi: Sergei Mikhailovich Petrovskiy, year of birth 1964, officer of Main Intelligence Directorate of Russian Federation, Deputy Chief of Ihor Girkin on Intelligence, at the time of the interception was in Donetsk
“Sanych” – militant of terrorist organization “DNR”. Deputy of Khmuryi.
K: Sanych, the point is that my “BUK–M” (modified Russian SAM system) will go with yours, it is on a tug. Where should I drive it to put in a column?
Sanych: There, behind “Motel”, not reaching Hornostaevka.
K: Just after the Motel, right?
" Hey OP, listen to my advice alright." -Tha General "No scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer." -Stigler's Law of Eponymy, discovered by Robert K. Merton MYT
Khmuryi: Sergei Nikolaevich Petrovskiy, year of birth 1964, officer of Main Intelligence Directorate of Russian Federation, Deputy Chief of Ihor Girkin on Intelligence, at the time of the interception he was in Donetsk.
“Buryat” – militant of terrorist organization “DNR” (to be indentified).
Buryat: – Where should we load this beauty, Nikolaievich?
Khmuryi: Which one? This one?
B: Yes, the one I've brought. I'm already in Donetsk.
K: Is it the one I'm thinking about? “B...,”M” one?
B: Yes, yes, yes. “BUK”,”BUK”.
K: Is it on a tractor?
B: Yes, it's on it. We need to unload it somewhere, in order to hide.
K: Is it with a crew?
B: Yes, with the crew.
K: Don't hide it anywhere. She'll go there now.
July 17, 2014
Khmuryi: – Tell me, have you brought me one or two?
Buryat: One, one. Because they had a misunderstanding there. They didn't give us a tug. We loaded it and went at their own pace.
K: Did it go on her own or on a tug?
B: It crossed the line (border).
H: And now have you brought it on a tug? Don't put in anywhere... I'll tell now where it should go, it will go together with “Vostok” tanks.
Talks between terrorists, July 17, 2014
Khmuryi: Sergei Mikhailovich Petrovskiy, year of birth 1964, officer of Main Intelligence Directorate of Russian Federation, Deputy Chief of Ihor Girkin on Intelligence, at the time of the interception was in Donetsk
“Sanych” – militant of terrorist organization “DNR”. Deputy of Khmuryi.
K: Sanych, the point is that my “BUK–M” (modified Russian SAM system) will go with yours, it is on a tug. Where should I drive it to put in a column?
Sanych: There, behind “Motel”, not reaching Hornostaevka.
K: Just after the Motel, right?
Wasn't there a whole discussion (published to YouTube of course) of intercepted communication between Russia and the Separatists after the downing when they realized it was Civilian? Let me see if I can find it.
EDIT: Gizmodo Link
3 newborn babies....80 children.....AIDS researchers....+ more fellow humans = 298.
--------------------------------------------
I am Dyslexic of Borg, prepare to have your ass laminated.
I guess Ray Butts has ate his last pancake. http://steamcommunity.com/id/daehawk
"Has high IQ. Refuses to apply it"
