That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons bring us some web forums whereupon we can gather
http://www.octopusoverlords.com/forum/
FTFYCrabbs wrote:All those lost souls because of a dick swinging contest between East & West.... Putin wants to restore the USSR in the form of a new Russian empire... sighDaehawk wrote:3 newborn babies....80 children.....AIDS researchers....+ more fellow humans = 298.
Only the most obtuse would believe that there is a moral equivalence between the two here.Crabbs wrote:All those lost souls because of a dick swinging contest between East & West.... sighDaehawk wrote:3 newborn babies....80 children.....AIDS researchers....+ more fellow humans = 298.
Dufrensne are you calling me obtuse?Grifman wrote:Only the most obtuse would believe that there is a moral equivalence between the two here.Crabbs wrote:All those lost souls because of a dick swinging contest between East & West.... sighDaehawk wrote:3 newborn babies....80 children.....AIDS researchers....+ more fellow humans = 298.
The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/ ... 8-14-22-48Girkin, also known as Strelkov and allegedly a former Russian military intelligence agent, said he couldn't confirm the information. But it's sure to add to the intense emotions surrounding the crash, with the rebels accused of shooting down the plane.
Girkin said "Ukrainian authorities are capable of any baseness."
He claimed that a large amount of blood serum and medications were found in the wreckage.
Bullshit, there are witnesses that saw these passengers off, alive and well. It's obvious why he'd say this and he gets credit for trying I guess, but there is no way out of it. They fucked up big time. It's an epic, historic error and no amount of lies will get them out if it. All this serves to do is turn the whole thing into a circus for the conspiracy nuts but the vast majority of the world will see through this pile of crap.Rip wrote:The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/ ... 8-14-22-48Girkin, also known as Strelkov and allegedly a former Russian military intelligence agent, said he couldn't confirm the information. But it's sure to add to the intense emotions surrounding the crash, with the rebels accused of shooting down the plane.
Girkin said "Ukrainian authorities are capable of any baseness."
He claimed that a large amount of blood serum and medications were found in the wreckage.
Lol, rotten bodies falling from the sky, that's just complete crazy talk. I'm always up for a good conspiracy, but if has to at least have plausibility.LawBeefaroni wrote:Bullshit, there are witnesses that saw these passengers off, alive and well. It's obvious why he'd say this and he gets credit for trying I guess, but there is no way out of it. They fucked up big time. It's an epic, historic error and no amount of lies will get them out if it. All this serves to do is turn the whole thing into a circus for the conspiracy nuts but the vast majority of the world will see through this pile of crap.Rip wrote:The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/ ... 8-14-22-48Girkin, also known as Strelkov and allegedly a former Russian military intelligence agent, said he couldn't confirm the information. But it's sure to add to the intense emotions surrounding the crash, with the rebels accused of shooting down the plane.
Girkin said "Ukrainian authorities are capable of any baseness."
He claimed that a large amount of blood serum and medications were found in the wreckage.
Yesterday I stumbled across a poorly written blog post that called this a Zionist false-flag operation to divert attention from the genocide in Gaza. There is no shortage of crazy on the internet. How it found its way into my google newsfeed is another question.LawBeefaroni wrote:All this serves to do is turn the whole thing into a circus for the conspiracy nuts but the vast majority of the world will see through this pile of crap.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/07 ... strike-on/Senior Western intelligence officials believe they have found evidence that the Russian commander Igor "Strelkov" Girkin oversaw the missile strike Thursday that downed a Malaysian commercial airliner over Ukraine, killing all 289 aboard, U.S. officials tell Fox News.
Girkin, whose nom de guerre means “shooter” in Russian, is the Russian commander who has overseen the uprising of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine over roughly the past four months.
Girkin is a retired Russian military intelligence officer who purportedly served in the Russian FSB, the country’s internal security unit -- a part of the KGB that was renamed after the Soviet Union fell apart.
U.S. officials think Girkin oversaw the missile strike in part because of social media posts he made shortly after the Malaysian plane went down. And they have an intercepted phone conversation purportedly between a Girkin lieutenant and a handler in the Russian military intelligence service in which the fighter seems to say his team shot down the plane.
Girkin purportedly posted online: “Near (Snizhne) right now was hit an airplane An-26.”
“It is somewhere behind the mine ‘Progress,’ ” Girkin added.
Girkin previously served in Chechnya to put down an uprising against Moscow and led the Russian incursion into Crimea, in eastern Ukraine, earlier this year.
About five weeks ago, Girkin, who is not a Ukrainian, reportedly sought help from Moscow because he said the local ethnic Russians in Ukraine did not want to fight.
Kasey Chang wrote:Heck, they're even debating whether the Russians have packed up that launcher that fired the missiles and shipped it back to Russia.
ikrKurth wrote:Kasey Chang wrote:Heck, they're even debating whether the Russians have packed up that launcher that fired the missiles and shipped it back to Russia.
What's to debate?
Sounds like they could operate them just fine, but with no more experienced than that obviously not greatly skilled at it.The embassy officials said that Russia last weekend sent a convoy of military equipment with up to 150 vehicles including tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery and rocket launchers to the separatists They also said they have information indicating the separatists are being trained at a facility in southwest Russia on air-defense systems.
The pro-Russian separatist fighters, officials said, also have “demonstrated proficiency with surface-to-air missile systems and have downed more than a dozen aircraft over the past few months, including two large transport aircraft.”
Russian President Vladimir Putin said Friday that Ukraine was responsible for the downing of the passenger plane because the country's central government had renewed its military campaign against the separatists.
Data from the black box flight recorders of Flight MH17 show it was destroyed by shrapnel from a missile strike that caused a "massive explosive decompression", a Ukrainian official said yesterday.
Andriy Lysenko, spokesman for Ukraine's Security Council, told a news conference in Kiev the information came from experts analysing the recorders from the plane that came down in rebel-held territory in eastern Ukraine on July 17.
British air accident specialists have been tasked with downloading the data from two black boxes recovered from the Malaysia Airlines crash site and handing that information over to an investigation led by the Dutch Safety Board.
That won't stop the Russians from acting all butthurt.A Russian-developed Buk missile detonated less than a yard away from Malaysia Airlines Flight 17's cockpit, causing the plane to break up over eastern Ukraine so quickly that it is likely the nearly 300 people aboard "were barely able to comprehend the situation" before they perished, Dutch investigators said Tuesday.
...
The long-awaited findings by the Dutch Safety Board offered a chilling account of the devastation aboard the Kuala Lumpur-bound airliner that was blown out of the sky over eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014. The report marks the latest stage of evidence gathering as investigators try to sort out what happened to the plane, whose flight path took it directly over the war-torn region.
But the findings left unresolved the central question of responsibility, which became even murkier this week with conflicting reports from the missile's manufacturer. The report also did not specify what generation of missile brought down the plane. The Buk surface-to-air missile system, first developed in early 1970s by the Soviet Union, is part of the Russian arsenal and is a complicated air defense weapon designed to locate and engage targets by radar. While older versions are no longer in use by the Russians, various types of Buk systems are used by Ukraine and some other former Soviet republics.
Russia on Tuesday said it had "serious doubts" about the goal of a Dutch inquiry into the downing of a Malaysia Airline plane over rebel-held eastern Ukraine last year.
The Russian foreign ministry reeled off a litany of perceived problems with the Dutch-led investigation, saying the work on it should continue.
"There remain serious doubts whether the genuine goal of an investigation conducted in the Netherlands is the establishment of true reasons behind the catastrophe and not a justification of accusations that have been put forward in advance," a foreign ministry spokeswoman said.
...
Earlier in the day the Russian maker of BUK missiles, Almaz-Antey sought to discredit the findings of the inquiry.
The Russian foreign ministry spokeswoman, Maria Zakharova, said in a statement that the foreign investigators had ignored the findings by Almaz-Antey and had not come to Russia to look into the company's conclusions despite being invited.
"Russia experts never got access to all the materials of the investigation," she added, reeling off a list of other issues.
NYT wrote:There’s a lot riding on this conclusion — for instance, the costly Western sanctions imposed on Russia in the wake of the crash. And so, from the day the pieces of the plane rained down on Ukraine’s sunflower fields, Moscow has advanced its own theories about what brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. From early claims that it was a Ukrainian attempt to bring down Vladimir Putin’s presidential plane to later, more technical explanations, the Russian media and Almaz-Antey have acted like defense attorneys in a criminal trial, deliberately muddying the waters, fastidiously creating as much reasonable doubt as possible to lead the scent away from their client.
The Dutch report implicitly fingers the Russians, but Kremlin-friendly newspapers have seized on stray details, like the report’s criticism of the Ukrainian government for not shutting down airspace over the conflict, and the big question it chose not to directly answer: Who fired the missile? (Determining ultimate responsibility, the authors of the report said, “falls outside the mandate of the Dutch Safety Board.”) The evening news across Russia showed not the Dutch news conference but the Moscow one, in which the reporter concluded that the Western version of events “doesn’t hold water.”
Given that 94 percent of Russians consider television their main source of news, and that 67 percent consider it a source of useful and objective information, it is no surprise that Russians have a radically different picture of what happened to the plane than their Western counterparts.
Same NYT article wrote:Put another way: Propaganda works. Putin has understood that from Day 1. Fifteen years ago, one of his first acts as president of the Russian Federation was to seize control of television and bring it under the authority of the state. (The saga is masterfully detailed in “Kremlin Rising,” the 2005 book by Susan Glasser and Peter Baker.) Controlling the television screen means controlling the reality that his subjects inhabit, and it has proved to be the most important bulwark of Putin’s hold on power. A week ago, when Russia began its air campaign in Syria, only 14 percent of Russians supported military intervention. A week of intense television programming later, only 28 percent oppose it.
Most Russians live in a reality parallel to the West, and this presents a serious political challenge. Sanctioning Moscow for downing a plane most Russians believe the Ukrainians shot down only makes them rally behind a leader they believe is unfairly targeted by Washington and Brussels. It has also made it easy for Moscow to blame Russia’s cratering economy not on its own bad management and metastatic corruption but on unjust Western sanctions.
Washington going after Putin for attacking non-Islamic State rebels in Syria only plays into Putin’s hands: If Russian citizens believe that Moscow is bombing the Islamic State, but that Washington is against it, does that mean that Washington is behind the Islamic State? Not surprisingly, versions of this theory have also blanketed the Russian media. It is also why Putin continues to enjoy such deliriously high approval ratings. They may be inexplicable to a Western audience, which uniformly sees Putin portrayed as a latter-day Bond villain, but to a Russian viewer who sees only the strength and sagacity of Putin splashed across his screen every night, what’s not to like?
How much can you trust opinion polls conducted within an authoritarian state, though? There's plenty of reason for a Russian citizen to respond to opinion polls in a pro-government way. The change in opinion polls over that week could just as easily be explained by the fact that at the start of the week the Russian government was not actively conducting a military intervention in Syria, while at the end of the week they were.LawBeefaroni wrote:Same NYT article wrote:Put another way: Propaganda works. Putin has understood that from Day 1. Fifteen years ago, one of his first acts as president of the Russian Federation was to seize control of television and bring it under the authority of the state. (The saga is masterfully detailed in “Kremlin Rising,” the 2005 book by Susan Glasser and Peter Baker.) Controlling the television screen means controlling the reality that his subjects inhabit, and it has proved to be the most important bulwark of Putin’s hold on power. A week ago, when Russia began its air campaign in Syria, only 14 percent of Russians supported military intervention. A week of intense television programming later, only 28 percent oppose it.
87% of Russians disapprove of this post, Pravda reports.El Guapo wrote:How much can you trust opinion polls conducted within an authoritarian state, though? There's plenty of reason for a Russian citizen to respond to opinion polls in a pro-government way. The change in opinion polls over that week could just as easily be explained by the fact that at the start of the week the Russian government was not actively conducting a military intervention in Syria, while at the end of the week they were.LawBeefaroni wrote:Same NYT article wrote:Put another way: Propaganda works. Putin has understood that from Day 1. Fifteen years ago, one of his first acts as president of the Russian Federation was to seize control of television and bring it under the authority of the state. (The saga is masterfully detailed in “Kremlin Rising,” the 2005 book by Susan Glasser and Peter Baker.) Controlling the television screen means controlling the reality that his subjects inhabit, and it has proved to be the most important bulwark of Putin’s hold on power. A week ago, when Russia began its air campaign in Syria, only 14 percent of Russians supported military intervention. A week of intense television programming later, only 28 percent oppose it.
Police have arrested a man on suspicion of trying to assassinate the chief expert witness in the investigation into the downing of the Malaysia Airlines jet MH17.
Ukraine’s most senior forensic scientist, Oleksandr Ruvin, was shot in the leg late last year in an attack that the authorities suspect was linked to his role in the crash probe.
In a short statement, the Ukrainian prosecutor’s office said the country’s chief military prosecutor, Anatoliy Matios, would hold a briefing later on Monday “regarding the arrest of the killer who attempted to murder the chief expert on the case of the downed Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777”.
International prosecutors investigating the downing of flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine in 2014 say the missile that hit the plane was fired from territory controlled by Russian-backed rebels.
They said the missile launcher was brought into Ukraine from Russia.
All 298 people on board the Boeing 777 died when it broke apart in midair flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.
Relatives told the BBC that prosecutors said they would investigate about 100 people over the incident.
"They told us how the Buk was transported [and] how they came to that evidence from phone taps, photo, film material, video," Robby Oehler, whose niece was killed in the crash, told the BBC.
Russia has disputed claims that the missile was fired by rebels in eastern Ukraine.
The Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT) consists of prosecutors from the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine.
"Based on the criminal investigation, we have concluded that flight MH17 was downed by a Buk missile of the series 9M83 that came from the territory of the Russian Federation," chief Dutch police investigator Wilbert Paulissen said.
The missile launcher was later taken back to Russia, he said.
An inquiry by the Dutch Safety Board last year found that a Russian-made Buk missile hit the plane but did not say where it was fired from.
The JIT investigation's findings are meant to prepare the ground for a criminal trial but suspects will not be named.
For the first time since Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down in July 2014, prosecutors have announced charges against suspects in the case.
Three Russians and a Ukrainian have been charged with bringing a missile into the area in eastern Ukraine and with murdering 298 passengers and crew.
Passenger flight MH17 was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was shot down over conflict-hit Ukraine.
A court case will begin in the Netherlands on 9 March 2020.
International arrest warrants have been issued for the four men.
The Dutch-led joint investigation team (JIT) named the men as Igor Girkin, Sergey Dubinskiy and Oleg Pulatov from Russia, as well as Ukrainian Leonid Kharchenko.
The JIT, which seeks to try the suspects under Dutch law, previously said it had a "long list" of persons of interest and appealed again for witnesses as the investigation continues.