[AMC] Better Call Saul

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:24 am

Would they entrust Nacho to kill someone? I don't know that he's ever done that, so hits might not be in his skill set.

We should start making bets on what happens to certain characters before Breaking Bad.

Kim - Killed by the Salamanca family

Nacho - Put down by Gus

Lalo - Killed by Mike

Howard - Lives a very comfortable life and donates millions to a scholarship fund he starts called Chuck's Kids.

Malificent · Post by **Malificent** » Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:48 am

In Breaking Bad season 2, Saul at one point thinks that Walter and Jesse are Lalo's men, so if Lalo ends up getting killed in Better Call Saul, Saul doesn't know about it.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:13 am

Was this at the beginning of Breaking Bad when Saul was first introduced? Maybe Lalo had just been killed and Saul was worried it was retribution.
I'm not sure of the timeline, so maybe Walt and Jesse will start to cook very soon.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:36 am

Can someone explain to me who were the guys that tried to get the 7 million? Gus said they were sent by the main cartel dude in Mexico, right? But Lalo works for him, so did that guy just not want Lalo to get out of jail or did he just want to steal the money? I didn't quite follow the motivation there.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:41 am

I think the Salamancas are a contractor with the guy in Mexico, just like Gus. Presumably he wanted the cash and screwing Lalo was just icing on the cake.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:49 pm

What a cliffhanger!

Kim - I don't know what to think about Kim. She's either:
a. So hateful of what she's become that she's channeling that self loathing into hurting the good guy who is pointing out that she's with the bad guy,
b. Baiting Jimmy to see just how evil Jimmy is. If he will ruin a good man then she will know that she's done with him.

Howard - "You know who knew Jimmy? Chuck." Damn right. Great line.

Nacho - Dude, you are so screwed.

Lalo - He's a combination of Sherlock Holmes and John Wick. I love his presentation to Don Eladio. In your face, Bolsa.

Mike - Yep, he's totally comfortable in this role as security/hitman for the drug cartel.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:19 am

That frickin' Lalo has nine lives. I wonder who will fill in the void left by Nacho. Was this clear in BB?

Scribs · Post by **Scribs** » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:56 am

It was apparent that Lalo wasn't going to die. Saul was told Lalo would be dead but in Saul's first appearance in BB he speaks of Lalo as if he's alive, and Nacho too! I am little surprised by Lalo this episode by how laid-back he was with everything after being enlightened by Kim's rant. I expected him to at least keep a close eye on Nacho.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:46 am

What did Nacho stick in that padlock on the gate to open it?

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:36 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKtmvstcaR0

Apparently it's the equivalent of using a credit card to open a door lock.

JCC · Post by **JCC** » Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:48 am

Just a magnificent episode from a magnificent show. I still remain in awe of how awesome this show is. It's within a gnat's wing of being every bit as good as Breaking Bad (Are we sure it ISN'T as good or better than Breaking Bad?! It hasn't had a lull yet like season 5 of BB mostly was). Just awesome!

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:02 pm

McNutt wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:36 am https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKtmvstcaR0

Apparently it's the equivalent of using a credit card to open a door lock.

That's insane! Padlocks are now worthless. No wonder they make those circular ones.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:21 pm

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm9K6r ... igLoZOh6FQ

Malificent · Post by **Malificent** » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:28 pm

Amazing episode and amazing season.

It's fascinating watching all the various factors that go into Kim breaking bad.

Kim has a well established dislike for people who get an unfair advantage - she's had to work hard her whole life.
She had some success early in this season using a scam tactic to help her client, leading her farther down the means justifies the end path.
Coming off a life-threatening situation, everything else seems lesser, leaving Kim on a bit of giddy "I'm invulnerable high". Everything else seeming lesser also includes...
The mean-spirited but non life threatening pranks played on Howard, who also picked the absolute wrong way to tell her about Jimmy - suggesting she needs someone else to tell her what to do is 100% the wrong direction.
She's stubborn, like Jimmy and she's going to stick with him and if she's going to stick with him, she's not just going to sit around and let someone else do the work. She's going to do it better than they will.

I had no idea my fear for Kim shouldn't have been physical but moral...

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:37 pm

So is Kim in danger of Jimmy leaving her because she is too dark?

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:27 pm

<finger guns>
pew pew

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:46 pm

Kim and Saul are perfect for each other. I love how she sees Howard for the smarmy one-percenter that he is. If it weren't for Saul, she might have ended up just like his other lackies on the elevator.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:16 pm

You see Howard as smarmy? He seems pretty nice and genuine to me.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:13 am

Howard makes my skin crawl, precisely because he seems nice and bland.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:43 pm

Howard is probably the most sincere and decent character on the show. He was trying to help Kim by reminding her of what she used to stand for. Unfortunately, the rot that is Jimmy has apparently already taken hold. That there are still people who see Jimmy as the hero of this show amazes me.

Oh, and Howard and Jimmy’s relationship over the last 5 seasons was summed up perfectly by Howard in two sentences when he told Kim, “You know who knew Jimmy? Chuck.”. That was such a great line.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:11 pm

You know who knows Howard? Kim.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:29 pm

Jaymann wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:11 pm You know who knows Howard? Kim.

This mentality blows me away. Kim has shown that she is losing her fight to stay on the moral straight and narrow. What has Howard done to deserve any of this?

Jimmy is a piece of shit. There can be no doubt about that. Taking his side against Howard is just nonsense.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:39 am

If you are missing the class undertones that permeate this show, and what Howard's happy face and pricey suits and perfect hair represent, then you won't understand why Kim is torn between Saul's glorious train wreck of a life and Howard's "straight and narrow."

I hope Kim doesn't die by choosing the Bonnie & Clyde path, but I think that's what will finally set Saul on the path to Cinnabun.

Malificent · Post by **Malificent** » Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:54 am

Por que no los dos?

Howard can be a nice guy who also was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Early on, Howard didn't give Kim the time of day. Once she had gotten to his level, he had an easier time treating her right. He definitely made some poor decisions with Jimmy early on but then course corrected and tried to make right.

Like all characters on this show, he's complex. I'm definitely not cheering for Jimmy or Kim to have success in bringing Howard down. Its definitely too far, too much. But I can also see from their points of view why he's not the hero in this story.

JCC · Post by **JCC** » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:07 am

McNutt wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:29 pm Jimmy is a piece of shit. There can be no doubt about that. Taking his side against Howard is just nonsense.

Telling people the "correct" way to appreciate and understand a work of fiction is nonsense. Jimmy is the main character of the show. Of course we all love him and hate Howard! The idea that Howard is a lawful good character is ridiculous. Every major character in this show lives a morality of shades of gray.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:33 am

Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:39 am If you are missing the class undertones that permeate this show, and what Howard's happy face and pricey suits and perfect hair represent, then you won't understand why Kim is torn between Saul's glorious train wreck of a life and Howard's "straight and narrow."

JCC wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:07 am Jimmy is the main character of the show. Of course we all love him and hate Howard! The idea that Howard is a lawful good character is ridiculous. Every major character in this show lives a morality of shades of gray.

He's a successful partner in a large law firm, of course he's going to wear pricey suits and be mindful of his appearance. Maybe I misunderstood your point on "class undertones", but I don't believe the show is making a statement on the evils of the upper class. If he were shown trampling over the rights of little people, or foreclosing on orphanages, I'd agree with you. But name one instance of Howard doing something even remotely sketchy. And his denying Jimmy a job in season one doesn't count because we all know at this point that wasn't his choice.

Howard isn't the hero of Better Call Saul. No one is a hero on this show...at least not until Badger and Skinny Pete show up. But he sure as heck ain't a villain. Especially when the show's main character is supposed to be just that. Not the mustache twirling, damsel tied to a train track kind of villain, sure. But he is a self centered,greedy, egotistical and petty man who allows those things to dictate his actions way too often. That he sometimes expresses regret means almost nothing when he just keeps on doing the very things that make him express that regret on occasion.

JCC wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:07 am Telling people the "correct" way to appreciate and understand a work of fiction is nonsense.

I agree. Too bad none of us actually believe that.

Jaymann wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:11 pm You know who knows Howard? Kim.

You know who knows Mayor McCheese? The Hamburglar.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:53 am

McNutt wrote: ↑Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:49 pm

Howard - "You know who knew Jimmy? Chuck." Damn right. Great line.

I just now noticed that you mentioned this earlier, then I brought it up again later.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:27 am

Malificent wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:54 am Por que no los dos?

Howard can be a nice guy who also was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Early on, Howard didn't give Kim the time of day. Once she had gotten to his level, he had an easier time treating her right. He definitely made some poor decisions with Jimmy early on but then course corrected and tried to make right.

Like all characters on this show, he's complex. I'm definitely not cheering for Jimmy or Kim to have success in bringing Howard down. Its definitely too far, too much. But I can also see from their points of view why he's not the hero in this story.

Sure, and the complexity and ambiguity make it great. There are no 2-dimensional characters, at least not among those who've gotten a back story. Everyone has some good and some bad in them, and the way that gets expressed depends on their individual circumstances.

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:33 am
Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:39 am If you are missing the class undertones that permeate this show, and what Howard's happy face and pricey suits and perfect hair represent, then you won't understand why Kim is torn between Saul's glorious train wreck of a life and Howard's "straight and narrow."

JCC wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:07 am Jimmy is the main character of the show. Of course we all love him and hate Howard! The idea that Howard is a lawful good character is ridiculous. Every major character in this show lives a morality of shades of gray.
He's a successful partner in a large law firm, of course he's going to wear pricey suits and be mindful of his appearance. Maybe I misunderstood your point on "class undertones", but I don't believe the show is making a statement on the evils of the upper class. If he were shown trampling over the rights of little people, or foreclosing on orphanages, I'd agree with you. But name one instance of Howard doing something even remotely sketchy. And his denying Jimmy a job in season one doesn't count because we all know at this point that wasn't his choice.

Howard is the gatekeeper to the 1%. He's bewildered that anybody could turn down his offers to raise them up. How could anyone not want what he's got? Jimmy's fondness for his beat-up Suzuki Esteem over the fancy company car is a nice illustration of where his heart lies, and Kim is torn between those worlds. IDK how she will end up, but I'll bet she finds that it's not easy to keep a foot in each the way Jimmy does.

Class themes permeate the drug underworld, too...but I haven't developed that idea yet, so I won't try to support it.

Anyway, I love that it's hard to pigeonhole the heroes and antiheroes. I rooted for Walter White all the way through BB, so it's not surprising that I'm on Team Jimmy now.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:11 am

Of course I'm not really trying to tell people how they have to interpret certain people. What I find fascinating, and this is something that I've been talking about from Season 1, is how interesting I find it that people can watch the same show I'm watching and come off with a different attitude about certain characters.

Jimmy - When Chuck was alive we saw a side of Jimmy that we liked. He could be fun and he seemed to be enjoying life. Things are different now and Jimmy doesn't seem to have any joy in his life other than Kim, and she is becoming a concern to him too. He has no friends and his schemes are now designed around keeping himself alive and not to satisfy some pleasure. How anyone can find him to be a good guy is beyond me. He is the kind of person you would hate in real life.

Howard - What in the world has Howard done to deserve the scorn I've seen here? He's a stand up guy. Yes, he told Jimmy that he wasn't going to be hired at HHM, but that was certainly a wise decision by Chuck. Howard was just the fall guy. Howard was concerned early in the show that Kim was letting Jimmy influence her to her own detriment. He had the typical boss come-to-Jesus meeting with her and he seemed genuinely happy that she had turned herself around and become a successful lawyer.

Kim - I want to like Kim, but I'm finding it harder to do so. Most people, when they find out their husband was in a gunfight with the cartel, would have to seriously reevaluate things. Kim is all in. Now she's trying to ruin Howard's career just to get money and watch him burn. Sorry Howard told you the truth about what your psycho husband did to him.
There's still the scene with Kim as a child that puzzles me. I was expecting that to be some background into why she's going to leave Jimmy. Now I'm seeing it to show how strong Jimmy's hold on her is. Jimmy is going to be the ruin of her. She is seeing the writing on the wall and, instead of going on her own, which she has a history of doing, she is resisting that urge and sticking with him. Crazy.

Malificent · Post by **Malificent** » Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:28 am

I like Jimmy, but I know he's making the wrong decisions. I love Kim and it's killing me to watch her make the wrong decisions.

In some respects, the thing with Jimmy comes down to a nature/nurture decision - can people change or are they who they are? I saw opportunity for Jimmy to change that was squashed and you see that revealing who Jimmy was all along.

I'm not sure either of us is right or wrong. What I do know (and love/admire) is that the characters are making decisions that *feel* like the decisions that they would make, not the decision that an outside observer would make. I saw someone say that the show writers' greatest ability is to have characters blindside us with decisions that are *of course* the decisions that character would make. Kim standing up to Lalo is not at ALL how I pictured it happening, but given who Kim is and where she's come from, I'm not sure she could have reacted in any other way.

I do love this show even as it gets more and more emotionally painful to watch.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:24 pm

Kraken wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:27 am Howard is the gatekeeper to the 1%. He's bewildered that anybody could turn down his offers to raise them up. How could anyone not want what he's got? Jimmy's fondness for his beat-up Suzuki Esteem over the fancy company car is a nice illustration of where his heart lies, and Kim is torn between those worlds. IDK how she will end up, but I'll bet she finds that it's not easy to keep a foot in each the way Jimmy does.

I think you're basically accusing him of being successful, and I still don't see that as a crime. He's never once belittled someone for not being rich that I know of. And I don't even see that kind of thinking in his offering Jimmy a job. If anything, it was misplaced guilt for what he did when appeasing Chuck (who we now know was the expert on all things Jimmy) in season one.

I think the conflict that you see as upper class vs lower class is not that, it's actually right vs wrong. It's the easy and dirty way vs the long and right way. By all indications, Howard has worked long and hard to get where he is. Jimmy wants what Howard has, but he is incapable of putting in the work to get there the right way.

JCC · Post by **JCC** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:03 am

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:24 pm Jimmy wants what Howard has, but he is incapable of putting in the work to get there the right way.

Could not disagree more with this!!!! Jimmy's issue isn't work ethic at all! He worked his ass off to become a lawyer, and then to get the class action lawsuit for the retirees, and then he got what he thought was his dream job. The issue with Jimmy isn't laziness, it's that he didn't get satisfaction from being a boring, straight laced lawyer. Jimmy loves and misses the hustle, and the haggling. He's a crooked used car salesman with a law degree. It's the EXCITEMENT of the con that Jimmy craves. He is addicted to mischief. THAT is his character flaw. I would say that Jimmy worked MILES harder than Howard did to become a lawyer.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:32 am

Nobody, including Hepcat, accused Jimmy of being lazy. He isn't capable of staying on the straight an narrow long enough to be successful. He's always going to be distracted by illegal/immoral stuff.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:46 am

McNutt wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:32 am Nobody, including Hepcat, accused Jimmy of being lazy. He isn't capable of staying on the straight an narrow long enough to be successful. He's always going to be distracted by illegal/immoral stuff.

I don't know, if you measure success in money, he ended up with suitcases full of it.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:13 pm

JCC wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:03 am
hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:24 pm Jimmy wants what Howard has, but he is incapable of putting in the work to get there the right way.
Could not disagree more with this!!!! Jimmy's issue isn't work ethic at all! He worked his ass off to become a lawyer, and then to get the class action lawsuit for the retirees, and then he got what he thought was his dream job. The issue with Jimmy isn't laziness, it's that he didn't get satisfaction from being a boring, straight laced lawyer. Jimmy loves and misses the hustle, and the haggling. He's a crooked used car salesman with a law degree. It's the EXCITEMENT of the con that Jimmy craves. He is addicted to mischief. THAT is his character flaw. I would say that Jimmy worked MILES harder than Howard did to become a lawyer.

Read the quote you used from my post again.

Jimmy wants what Howard has, but he is incapable of putting in the work to get there the right way.

Jimmy has no work ETHIC. Period. He’s not lazy, true. But he’s going to take the crooked route every time if it gets him what he wants...especially if it happens faster. Think back on the retirement home lawsuit you mentioned and remember the stuff he did. I think you’re forgetting a few things.

Also, “mischief”? That’s a nice way of saying “criminal” I guess.

And I’ll take boring, straight laced lawyer over dishonest con man lawyer every time. I advise you to do the same if you need one.

P.S. now I wanna see zarathud and Imlawnboy turn into Saul Goodman type lawyers.

naednek · Post by **naednek** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:58 am

So imagine my disappointment when I thought the finale was this last Sunday. I didn't watch the previous episode and was going to binge watch the last two. Better Call Saul is probably the best show on TV right now, but out of all the seasons, i felt this was the weakest season. I really liked the seasons with his struggles with his brother.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:00 pm

I agree that it's the weakest season, but it was still a great season. Did Jimmy smile one time this season? That's how is life is now and it's a bit harder to watch.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:02 pm

The weakest? There are days when I wonder if we're all watching the same shows.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:16 pm

It is for me just because I can't root for Jimmy at all and I'm really starting to root against Kim. The writing is still great, but it has changed.

It's not like the show went from A+ to C. I'd give last season an A-.

naednek · Post by **naednek** » Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:28 pm

McNutt wrote: ↑Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:16 pm It is for me just because I can't root for Jimmy at all and I'm really starting to root against Kim. The writing is still great, but it has changed.

It's not like the show went from A+ to C. I'd give last season an A-.

agree, the season wasn't bad by any means. I just enjoyed the drama between the family better.