[AMC] Better Call Saul

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:18 pm

Smoove_B wrote:Because he couldn't "out perform" the kiss-ass fear mongering nonsense that Chuck and Howard pulled with Mesa Verde, Jimmy resorts to underhanded tricks to make them look foolish.

The problem is that he wasn't resorting to that. It's quite literally his only method. He can't change what he is. Nor does he even want to. Even Kim realizes that, which is why she demands that their practices remain separate.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:20 pm

Right...it's his go-to methodology because everyone looks down on him and doesn't take him seriously. And when he sees that Kim is doing the right thing and Howard and Chuck undercut her credibility it justifies (in his mind) an adequate response in an appropriate manner.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:23 pm

I don't think low self esteem or a desire to play Robin Hood the Barrister of Sherwood is the cause, though. Like I said before, Jimmy is always Slippin' Jimmy, but sometimes he's Jimmy McGill; not the other way around.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:27 pm

Yeah, Jimmy is all about Jimmy - of that there's no doubt. But I think when Chuck - an individual he clearly admires and professionally respects - cuts him down, it feeds the Slippin' Jimmy part of his brain and helps him justify his behaviors. I really think Jimmy wants to be a better person but can't resist the shortcuts - because they work.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:33 pm

Smoove_B wrote: I really think Jimmy wants to be a better person but can't resist the shortcuts - because they work.

This, but I think it's less about want and more about getting Chuck to respect him (he and Kim are the only two people alive that I think he even cares about in any meaningful manner...although not enough to change). As we saw with the guitar playing Ed Beagley Jr., he really, really does not like reining in Slippin' Jimmy. And he sees no real reason to when the underhanded things he does result in immediate gratification (never mind the long term damage they do). I absolutely love the scenes of Jimmy completely perplexed when others point out that his methods are wrong.

Trent Steel · Post by **Trent Steel** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:38 pm

Smoove_B wrote:Right...it's his only methodology because the ends justify the means.

Fixed.

Smoove_B wrote:And when he sees that Kim is doing the right thing and Howard and Chuck undercut her credibility it justifies (in his mind) an adequate response in an appropriate manner.

It justifies righting the wrong (in his mind). His response is the only way to get things on the track towards how he feels is right. No amount of straight talk to Chuck, Kim or Mesa Verde is going to get them to change their minds. He knows he has to manipulate the situation somehow to get the results he's looking for.

Where Chuck is a do the right thing kind of person, Jimmy is a get the right result kind of person.

The problem with Chuck is that he refuses to see that Jimmy really means well. The fact that Chuck will never give an inch means Jimmy has to resort to doing what he has to to make things right. HHM and the "law" means more to Chuck than his brother.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:42 pm

Smoove_B wrote: I really think Jimmy wants to be a better person but can't resist the shortcuts - because they work.

No. Jimmy does not want to be a better person. He wants to be the person that cons "live ones" at bars. He wants to run fast ones on people. He wants to do whatever the hell he wants to do. He just also wants people to like him. He's very happy with who he is and does not want to change.

Trent Steel · Post by **Trent Steel** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:42 pm

McNutt wrote:Chuck has forgiven Jimmy time and time again.

Has he?

McNutt wrote:I just can't understand anybody siding with Jimmy. He's a con artist, people!

That's the great thing about this show. That it allows for this broad of an interpretation.

I repeat... best show on TV right now.

Trent Steel · Post by **Trent Steel** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:43 pm

McNutt wrote:
Smoove_B wrote: I really think Jimmy wants to be a better person but can't resist the shortcuts - because they work.
No. Jimmy does not want to be a better person. He wants to be the person that cons "live ones" at bars. He wants to run fast ones on people. He wants to do whatever the hell he wants to do. He just also wants people to like him. He's very happy with who he is and does not want to change.

Here I agree with you.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:44 pm

Trent Steel wrote:
Where Chuck is a do the right thing kind of person, Jimmy is a get the right result kind of person.

The problem being that the right result isn't usually right. Or it ends with the wrong result for someone else.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:44 pm

Trent Steel wrote: The problem with Chuck is that he refuses to see that Jimmy really means well. The fact that Chuck will never give an inch means Jimmy has to resort to doing what he has to to make things right. HHM and the "law" means more to Chuck than his brother.

I'm still confused on this. What do you mean Chuck will never give an inch? Was Chuck supposed to hand over Mesa Verde to Kim? That's just bad business and no business owner is going to do that. Is that the inch he was supposed to concede?

Trent Steel · Post by **Trent Steel** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:46 pm

hepcat wrote:
Trent Steel wrote:
Where Chuck is a do the right thing kind of person, Jimmy is a get the right result kind of person.
The problem being that the right result isn't usually right. Or it ends with the wrong result for someone else.

Yes. Right result for Jimmy, or so he thinks until he sees the 37 other dominoes that just fell as a result that he wasn't expecting.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:46 pm

Trent Steel wrote:
McNutt wrote:Chuck has forgiven Jimmy time and time again.
Has he?

Yes. Chuck is such a stuffed shirt and he only forgives Jimmy's acts because he is family and because he loves him. Chuck would have disowned Jimmy decades ago if he hadn't forgiven him.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:47 pm

Trent Steel wrote: I repeat... best show on TV right now.

I completely agree. If they can maintain this level of excellence it will surpass Breaking Bad. The writing is top notch.

Trent Steel · Post by **Trent Steel** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:52 pm

McNutt wrote:
Trent Steel wrote: The problem with Chuck is that he refuses to see that Jimmy really means well. The fact that Chuck will never give an inch means Jimmy has to resort to doing what he has to to make things right. HHM and the "law" means more to Chuck than his brother.
I'm still confused on this. What do you mean Chuck will never give an inch? Was Chuck supposed to hand over Mesa Verde to Kim? That's just bad business and no business owner is going to do that. Is that the inch he was supposed to concede?

Not give an inch in the business sense, but in the personal relationship sense. Show some caring, some understanding. Let Jimmy be Jimmy without being on such a tight leash. Trying to control or push Jimmy away has gotten him in the situation he is in. Bring him in under your wing with a little cautious optimism might lead to less conflict and better results. Chuck has had ample opportunities to give this to Jimmy and has turned his back every single time.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:55 pm

Can we at least all agree that Mike is a bad person?

Trent Steel · Post by **Trent Steel** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:55 pm

McNutt wrote:
Trent Steel wrote:
McNutt wrote:Chuck has forgiven Jimmy time and time again.
Has he?
Yes. Chuck is such a stuffed shirt and he only forgives Jimmy's acts because he is family and because he loves him. Chuck would have disowned Jimmy decades ago if he hadn't forgiven him.

I disagree. To me Chuck is going through the motions in helping Jimmy out of crisis situations. He only does it because they share the same last name. There's no caring behind it.

If Chuck had forgiven him, he would have let Jimmy run with the Sandpiper case. Instead, he had Howard be the bad buy to shut Jimmy out because he's too much of a coward.

Trent Steel · Post by **Trent Steel** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:56 pm

Smoove_B wrote:Can we at least all agree that Mike is a bad person?

Not yet.

If he was bad, he would've pulled the trigger.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:58 pm

He didn't have a clean shot, otherwise he would have absolutely done it. He's without question a bad person that's trying to leave this world having done something good (money for his granddaughter).

Trent Steel · Post by **Trent Steel** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:00 pm

Smoove_B wrote:He didn't have a clean shot, otherwise he would have absolutely done it. He's without question a bad person that's trying to leave this world having done something good (money for his granddaughter).

As Vince Gilligan said on Talking Saul, he could have easily killed both of them with the shot, which is what I was thinking while watching it too.

He's getting there though.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:03 pm

Trent Steel wrote:
Smoove_B wrote:Can we at least all agree that Mike is a bad person?
Not yet.

If he was bad, he would've pulled the trigger.

And he wouldn't be going through a bit of an existentialist crisis over the death of the good Samaritan.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:04 pm

Trent Steel wrote: If Chuck had forgiven him, he would have let Jimmy run with the Sandpiper case. Instead, he had Howard be the bad buy to shut Jimmy out because he's too much of a coward.

Letting Jimmy run with the Sandpiper case would be completely irresponsible. Chuck knew that Jimmy would break the rules in .03 seconds with this case and he was right. Forgiving Jimmy doesn't mean Chuck is naive. He is a coward though, no argument there. He should have told Jimmy himself.

I see Chuck as having tried to be a mentor for Jimmy. He has shown Jimmy what doing the right thing can bring you: wealth, status, sense of purpose. I'm pretty sure he gave Jimmy the job in the mail room. I don't know what else he could do other than turn a blind eye to Jimmy's cons and that's just something he can only do for so long. Why should Chuck keep doing that?

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:07 pm

Looking for extra cash as a hitman for drug dealers kinda makes you a bad person.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:08 pm

Right now though, Mike isn't that man.

He will be though. And even when he's at his killing machine worst, I'll still think of his moments with his granddaughter and realize that even Hitler loved his mother.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:11 pm

Mike - Dirty cop. Freelance Heavy for any criminal with cash. Willing to be a hitman as long as the plan is solid. And I'm talking about Better Call Saul Mike. He's doing that now.

I don't care if he's sweet ole grandpa, he's a bad guy.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:15 pm

I think his son's death changed him though. Unfortunately, Don Hector's threats to his family are bringing forth the old Mike once again.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:17 pm

The stuff I listed were before Don Hector threatened his family.

We like Mike because he has a code. He doesn't want to hurt innocent people, but he chooses to work with evil people and puts himself in a position where innocent people might get killed indirectly because of him.

Trent Steel · Post by **Trent Steel** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:17 pm

McNutt wrote:Mike - Dirty cop. Freelance Heavy for any criminal with cash. Willing to be a hitman as long as the plan is solid. And I'm talking about Better Call Saul Mike. He's doing that now.

I don't care if he's sweet ole grandpa, he's a bad guy.

You are Chuck.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:18 pm

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:42 am

One thing that is inconsistent is that initially Jimmy was trying to persuade Chuck to retire. Then once as he did, Jimmy begged him to reconsider. He should have said, "Mission Accomplished!"

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:24 am

I think there's a big difference between asking someone to retire because they're legitimately not healthy/stable enough to work, and telling them not to retire because you made them doubt their sanity and put them in anguish.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:35 am

Jimmy does have a bit of a conscience. While he NEVER considers the repercussions of his actions, he does feel bad (just a little) about them afterwards. It was hurting him to see the kind of damage he had done to Chuck. He wanted to help Kim and never thought that it could spell the end of Chuck. And of course Jimmy thought that saying, "Good news, it was me!" would fix everything. What a jackass.

Anonymous Bosch · Post by **Anonymous Bosch** » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:47 pm

It all boils down to the flashback with a young Jimmy observing his Dad getting swindled: "There are wolves and sheep in this world, kid… wolves and sheep. Figure out which one you’re gonna be."

From that moment on, Jimmy figured he was a wolf. He knows that means harming sheep along the way, but that's just c'est la vie as far as he's concerned.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:54 pm

McNutt wrote:The stuff I listed were before Don Hector threatened his family.

Who has he killed between his son's death and Don Hector threatening his granddaughter?

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:01 pm

I didn't say he killed anyone, but he did agree to do a hit. He just later changed his mind. The point is, good guys don't look for jobs as hitmen when they need money.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:07 pm

The hitman with a heart of gold...

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:13 pm

McNutt wrote:I didn't say he killed anyone, but he did agree to do a hit. He just later changed his mind. The point is, good guys don't look for jobs as hitmen when they need money.

I don't believe he had any intention to kill anyone. Hence his bringing up a non-fatal resolution the first chance he got.

His son's death changed Mike. Don Hector's actions are changing him back. That's all I'm saying. He's not a killer at the start of Better Call Saul, and he's not become one...yet. His scenes with Doofus the Drug Dealer and the Amazing Technicolor Hummer proved that Mike has no trouble working with less than reputable people, but that he has a moral code that he's trying to follow.

Unfortunately, we're watching a good (well...somewhat good) man fall right now (and yes, I'm aware he was a bad man before his son's death...my point is that in Better Call Saul, he's almost reformed in comparison).

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:24 pm

McNutt wrote:I see Chuck as having tried to be a mentor for Jimmy.

Are you crazy? Chuck played his roll in creating Jimmy. Yes, Chuck got Jimmy the job in the mail room. But Chuck is also the one that kept Jimmy in the mail room, because he couldn't accept that he and Jimmy were both attorneys. Jimmy tried (oh my god, did he try, he tried all the time...). Had Chuck actually been mentoring Jimmy, he had a chance to alter the course of things. Show Jimmy how to do it right. Show him how to use the reputation of HHM to his advantage. Instead, Jimmy was cast out and left to his own devices - and in that world, Jimmy can only succeed by being Jimmy.

Chuck is an insufferable asshole.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:25 pm

He killed the cops that killed his son.

He's not a bloodthirsty guy. He does prefer to handle things without killing. Would he have killed Tuco had he been presented with a better plan? Maybe. But he still went to his scumbag handler to get a job that pays a lot because it requires a lot. That's not even a somewhat good man.

I will go so far as to say that Mike is a bad man who wants to be a good man.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:30 pm

Only because he felt he had no other recourse in his pursuit of keeping his family safe. And even then, he finds ways to avoid killing. As for killing those cops who murdered his son, I can't find fault in that. I'm pretty sure a majority of fathers would do the same if given the chance.

I think we're essentially agreeing on Mike. I just find him to fall a little more to the right of the good line, while you see him standing a bit more to the left.

But as I said, he'll eventually make that walk back to the other side of the line.