[AMC] Better Call Saul

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Sat May 13, 2017 9:30 am

RunningMn9 wrote:If hiring young, newly-minted lawyer Jimmy would have been totally irresponsible, why did Howard want to do it? You see Jimmy through Chuck's eyes, so you react like Chuck.

Howard wanted to do it because Chuck is a great lawyer and if Jimmy is half the lawyer Chuck is he would be a good hire. Howard has no idea how slimy Jimmy is. Chuck does and knows better than to bring him on to represent HHM.

Chuck helped make Jimmy what he is today.

No, Jimmy was an asshole since he was a kid. Why are you blaming Chuck for that?

When Jimmy put his nose to the grindstone and worked his way through law school he was trying to do the right thing - how did that work out?

It gave him a new avenue to scam people.

Every time Jimmy tries to do the right thing, how does it work out? Jimmy ends up doing the wrong thing to achieve what he believes is the right result.

Sometimes. Many times he does the wrong thing just because he enjoys doing it, such as his many scams like insurance fraud, selling people junk, etc.

Yes, Slippin' Jimmy is always in there, and he's willing to do seriously shady shit. But he's a product of circumstance in many ways. And Chuck is one of those circumstances.

We resent Chuck because we want Jimmy to be the hero, and Chuck has been shitting on him his whole life.

Once again we're blaming Chuck for Jimmy's actions. How do you know Chuck has been shitting on Jimmy his whole life? I've seen Chuck get furious and want to stop Jimmy in the present. And each time Jimmy had it coming because he was being an asshole. Have you ever known someone who was a total screw up? Did you blame everyone else for that person too?

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Sat May 13, 2017 10:05 am

Your opinion of why Howard wanted to do it is your own, not Howard's. Howard told us why he wanted to hire Charlie Hustle.

Jimmy didn't become a lawyer to have a new avenue to scam people. What the hell are you talking about?!?

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Sat May 13, 2017 10:12 am

I didn't say it was his goal, but it was certainly the end result. You could give Jimmy a great job and he'd still do the wrong thing. He proved that with D&M.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Sat May 13, 2017 10:27 am

Jimmy worked his way to passing the bar exam for one reason only - to impress Chuck. And Chuck shit all over him for it.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sat May 13, 2017 11:51 am

Papa Smurph wrote:
Kraken wrote:I told Wife a few nights ago that there are people who think Chuck is the Good Guy. She was incredulous that anybody could actually root for The Man. Yes, Chuck is the Good Guy in a straighten-up-and-fly-right kind of way. Doesn't make him even remotely sympathetic though.
Yeah, I'm with you. I really don't see how anyone thinks Chuck is "the Good Guy." Chuck is a pretty vile person who seems motivated by jealousy to destroy Jimmy's life. The lengths he has gone to are pretty extreme.

That said, Jimmy is certainly not a good guy either. More sympathetic, for sure, since so much of his behavior can be attributed to his dad and Chuck. But still a very amoral character.

They have opposite and incompatible approaches to life. Chuck is The Man who plays by and enforces and genuinely believes in the rules. Jimmy is the little guy that the system is rigged against, always looking for shortcuts and endruns because he just can't get a legitimate break, and he's miserable whenever he tries. To Chuck, the law is gospel to be enforced. To Jimmy, it's a rulebook to be gamed.

Which one we like better reflects our own viewpoint more than the inherent "goodness" of either character. Achieving such balance and ambiguity that we can argue about it is just really good writing. (I'm a Jimmy man myself, obviously.)

Two vignettes that summed up Jimmy perfectly: When he got the expensive company car and his coffee mug wouldn't fit the cupholder...and when he got the fancy office with a wall switch covered with tape that said "Do not turn off", he had to peel off that tape and flip the switch.

Trent Steel · Post by **Trent Steel** » Sat May 13, 2017 12:44 pm

Chuck showed his true colors when the last thing their mother said before she died was about asking for Jimmy and Chuck decided to withhold that information because of his own insecurity and jealousy.

Fuck Chuck.

Team Jimmy all the way!

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Sat May 13, 2017 1:36 pm

RunningMn9 wrote:Jimmy worked his way to passing the bar exam for one reason only - to impress Chuck. And Chuck shit all over him for it.

Chuck didn't shit all over him then. He just didn't give him a job that would let Jimmy destroy HHM. If Jimmy wanted to impress Chuck he could have been a lawyer who valued law, not abused it.

Kraken wrote:Jimmy is the little guy that the system is rigged against, always looking for shortcuts and endruns because he just can't get a legitimate break, and he's miserable whenever he tries.

I honestly don't remember Jimmy being unable to get a break. I very well might be wrong, but I can only remember instances where Jimmy was the problem, not bad luck. He got a hell of a break when his hard work paid off with a job at D&M. That was a truly sweet gig and if he wanted to get right with Chuck all he had to do was be a good lawyer there. His boss was super cool to him too. But nope. Jimmy had to be Jimmy and pissed away his good fortune.

Trent Steel wrote:Chuck showed his true colors when the last thing their mother said before she died was about asking for Jimmy and Chuck decided to withhold that information because of his own insecurity and jealousy.

I agree. That showed how jealous Chuck was that his loser brother who leaves a wake of destruction behind him is the one everybody loves most. Does that make Chuck a bad guy? No. Scamming people and offering to help kill people (I think Jimmy made that offer to Walt about Hank, but I can't remember for sure) makes you a bad guy.

Seriously though, I am so impressed with the complexity of these characters where we debate about whether or not so and so is a bad person. It's so much better than shoes where the "bad guy" is over the top.

Team Jimmy all the way!

Being on Team Jimmy is like being on Team Ric Flair. I can see how people can do that, but I'm not on board. I can't get on Team Chuck either because of his flaws.

I'm Team Howard.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Sat May 13, 2017 1:45 pm

It's interesting to me how you recognize Chuck's jealousy over how everyone loves Jimmy - but you seem to fail to understand why everyone loves Jimmy.

I don't know what to make of the fact that we each find the other's viewpoint totally incomprehensible.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Sat May 13, 2017 1:51 pm

McNutt wrote:Does that make Chuck a bad guy? No. Scamming people and offering to help kill people (I think Jimmy made that offer to Walt about Hank, but I can't remember for sure) makes you a bad guy.

Part of the issue here is that you're looking at Jimmy through a filter that knows how he is/was in Breaking Bad. It's hard to forget all the things you know about him and what he's become at that point, but he's not there yet. Jimmy isn't an angel but Chuck has gone out of his way to cause problems for Jimmy. And yet Jimmy took care of Chuck during his breakdown - bringing him food, water and ice and trying to keep him out of a hospital or institution. What does Chuck do? Records a confession and uses it to try and have Jimmy disbarred. Losing Mesa Verde didn't impact Chuck personally. Sure, it was a bit of a ego hit to the law firm but nothing that would have ruined them. Going after Jimmy's ability to perform law - which at this point he's using to help old people update their wills? Chuck has a vendetta and it's personal.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Sat May 13, 2017 1:53 pm

I totally understand why people like Jimmy. He's great unless you happen to be the person he's scamming. The same can be said of other bad guys in film like Vito Corleone. Just don't be fooled into thinking they're good guys.

And I totally agree with how weird it is that we see things completely differently. Throughout this show I've sat at my computer reading what some have said and kept thinking "are you kidding me?" knowing full well that you guys are saying the same about me.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Sat May 13, 2017 2:10 pm

Smoove, I can't unsee what I saw in Breaking Bad, but Better Call Saul has shown plenty of pre-BB stuff that Jimmy did. Insurance scam, scamming people over in bars, etc. This is who he is, not who he becomes.

Mesa Verde wasn't just about losing a client that HHM could certainly afford to lose. It was about a lawyer breaking into another lawyer's files and manipulating them in an effort to discredit that lawyer. Jimmy didn't just take Mesa Verde, he publicly humiliated Chuck and caused a mental breakdown. He broke the law and was COMPLETELY unethical. But Chuck's the bad guy for having had enough of that bullshit? You know as well as I do that any lawyer who does that deserves to be disbarred. Jimmy deserves that, even if he does care for Chuck.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Sat May 13, 2017 2:41 pm

You say that Jimmy is all about scamming people, but based on everything we've seen he's doing really helping his elderly clients and seems to enjoy that. Since Jimmy started in that office with Kim, he hasn't been trying to scam anyone. But Chuck likely has no idea what Jimmy is doing or how good he is at the job, and even if told I'm sure he wouldn't believe it. The biggest tragedy is that Chuck is trying to disbar Jimmy right when Jimmy seems to have gotten his life together and is doing good work.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Sat May 13, 2017 2:51 pm

McNutt wrote:
I'm Team Howard.

Other than his spiteful treatment of Kim before she left the firm, Howard has turned out to be the moral center for many things.

Ralph-Wiggum wrote: The biggest tragedy is that Chuck is trying to disbar Jimmy right when Jimmy seems to have gotten his life together and is doing good work.

Wasn't Jimmy skirting the law more than once when going after the retirement home franchise? I was under the impression that even when he thought he was towing the line when it came to the law, he was actually still skirting it quite a bit.

Ralph-Wiggum · Post by **Ralph-Wiggum** » Sat May 13, 2017 8:22 pm

He was doing some shady stuff when he worked on the big case for the other law firm, but I don't remember him doing anything since sharing the office space with Kim. Of course, we really don't have a good idea how long he's been working there.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Sat May 13, 2017 9:04 pm

I don't remember either. Was his commercial that he filmed with the fake veteran for his new practice with Kim?

They haven't really shown much of what Jimmy's been doing with his current crop of clients. I'm sure most, if not all, of it is ok because that's the nature of doing wills and stuff.

I don't think Jimmy has a very deep grasp of the law though. I seem to recall a few legal rules/procedures that were over his head that probably wouldn't have been if he had a more traditional education. I'm not knocking him for not knowing it, but it's going to be hard to do more than the simple stuff he's doing now.

RunningMn9 · Post by **RunningMn9** » Sat May 13, 2017 11:11 pm

And we shouldn't forget his time as a public defender either. Jimmy is out there doing God's work, not helping fat cats like Chuck.

Papa Smurph · Post by **Papa Smurph** » Sun May 14, 2017 1:05 am

Kraken wrote:Which one we like better reflects our own viewpoint more than the inherent "goodness" of either character.

I think that is very insightful. I'm going to guess that McNutt believes that rules exist to keep everything fair. I think rules are often (usually?) heavy-handed authoritarian things that are abused by those in power to keep others down. Which is to say, I suspect McNutt follows rules because they are right and just (usually), while I tend to subvert authority because these rules never can take into account the specific circumstances.

I find this line of thought quite interesting. I've long disliked the law and lawyers, because laws are twisted and abused by lawyers to take what was designed to be fair and apply them unfairly. My sense of morality is outraged at this. I've known this about myself for a long time, but I've rarely thought about the consequences.

Tl;dr - I'm chaotic good where I think McNutt is lawful good (or maybe lawful neutral).

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Tue May 16, 2017 10:21 pm

"It's all good, man." Ha!

PS - Don Hector is the devil.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue May 16, 2017 10:34 pm

Watching Nacho's face during this last episode was a show in itself. He really hates what he's become. He's his father's son, he just forgot. Now Hector's asking him to destroy the one good thing in his life.

I can't wait for Gus to smack Hector down.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Tue May 16, 2017 10:36 pm

Was Nacho in Breaking Bad? I can't remember if we already know his fate. He's a guy with a good heart who is caught in a really bad spot.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue May 16, 2017 10:39 pm

Wait...are we sure Gus put Hector in that wheelchair? I can't remember if he said as much in Breaking Bad. Maybe Nacho is the culprit.

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Tue May 16, 2017 10:48 pm

hepcat wrote:Wait...are we sure Gus put Hector in that wheelchair? I can't remember if he said as much in Breaking Bad. Maybe Nacho is the culprit.

It's never explained how Hector ended up in the wheelchair in Breaking Bad. In fact, until BCS, I had assumed a stroke due to natural causes, but Nacho is definitely a possibility.

McNutt wrote:Was Nacho in Breaking Bad? I can't remember if we already know his fate.

I may be mis-remembering, but I think

Spoiler:

.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue May 16, 2017 10:53 pm

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Wed May 17, 2017 12:30 am

Maybe Hector is in a wheelchair because Tony Montana shot him in the head.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Wed May 17, 2017 8:16 am

hepcat wrote:Wait...are we sure Gus put Hector in that wheelchair? I can't remember if he said as much in Breaking Bad. Maybe Nacho is the culprit.

I'm putting my money on Mike.

Z-Corn · Post by **Z-Corn** » Wed May 17, 2017 8:19 am

hepcat wrote:Wait...are we sure Gus put Hector in that wheelchair? I can't remember if he said as much in Breaking Bad. Maybe Nacho is the culprit.

Isn't that why Hector turned Gus into The Terminator and melted his face off?

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Wed May 17, 2017 8:48 am

That's why I always thought it was Gus. But now I'm not so sure.

stimpy · Post by **stimpy** » Wed May 17, 2017 8:58 am

Z-Corn wrote:
hepcat wrote:Wait...are we sure Gus put Hector in that wheelchair? I can't remember if he said as much in Breaking Bad. Maybe Nacho is the culprit.

Isn't that why Hector turned Gus into The Terminator and melted his face off?

I'd have to think there will be many more reasons why Hector would want to lower the boom on Gus.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Wed May 17, 2017 9:42 am

The internet is telling me that Nacho was not in Breaking Bad at all.

Spoiler:

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Wed May 17, 2017 10:08 am

McNutt wrote:The internet is telling me that Nacho was not in Breaking Bad at all.

Yeah, I found the scene I was thinking of on Youtube, and it turned out to be some random guy, not Nacho.

So now I have to wonder if Nacho survives BCS, since Ignacio is a fairly common name.

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Thu May 18, 2017 11:00 am

Incidentally if anyone is wondering what a bottle of 35 year old Macallan will set you back, here it is.

If you want to take up a collection, my birthday is in August.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Thu May 18, 2017 11:22 am

But Howard brought a 1966.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Tue May 23, 2017 9:47 am

We need more Howard.

Last night I had hope for Kim. She seemed to see what the hell she and Jimmy did to Chuck. All you Chuck haters out there can suck it.

Is Mike helping Nacho because he senses the good in him or is it because he's afraid of the wrath after Nacho screws it up? I get the feeling Mike is going to be the reason Don Hector is the invalid we see in Breaking Bad.

Victoria Raverna · Post by **Victoria Raverna** » Tue May 23, 2017 11:04 pm

hepcat wrote:I'm not clear on the reasons Jimmy had for flying in Chuck's ex-wife. To throw him off-guard? Spite? Reasons we will learn later?

Additional point to show that Chuck's condition is not physical but mental issue and maybe Chuck know that.

Did Jimmy ask Chuck about if it is other disease like cancer, he would still keep it a secret from his ex-wife?

So in a way, Jimmy tried to show that Chuck kept it a secret because it is a mental problem and he doesn't want to admit that. And Jimmy was worried about Chuck's mental stability when he made the confession.

Victoria Raverna · Post by **Victoria Raverna** » Tue May 23, 2017 11:13 pm

Papa Smurph wrote:
Kraken wrote:I told Wife a few nights ago that there are people who think Chuck is the Good Guy. She was incredulous that anybody could actually root for The Man. Yes, Chuck is the Good Guy in a straighten-up-and-fly-right kind of way. Doesn't make him even remotely sympathetic though.
Yeah, I'm with you. I really don't see how anyone thinks Chuck is "the Good Guy." Chuck is a pretty vile person who seems motivated by jealousy to destroy Jimmy's life. The lengths he has gone to are pretty extreme.

That said, Jimmy is certainly not a good guy either. More sympathetic, for sure, since so much of his behavior can be attributed to his dad and Chuck. But still a very amoral character.

I see it as Chuck does legal manipulations for the wrong reasons. Jimmy does wrong things for (sometimes) the right reasons. Sometimes he just does them because they are self serving. Both people are morally repugnant to me. I just feel sorry for Jimmy and think Chuck deserves whatever is about to happen to him (depending on just how bad it is!).

I think Chuck is a self righteous bad person when dealing with his brother.

I think Jimmy is a bad person that was loyal to his brother but got punished for it.

Victoria Raverna · Post by **Victoria Raverna** » Tue May 23, 2017 11:22 pm

McNutt wrote: Chuck didn't shit all over him then. He just didn't give him a job that would let Jimmy destroy HHM. If Jimmy wanted to impress Chuck he could have been a lawyer who valued law, not abused it.

Didn't BCS start with Jimmy being a lawyer that worked hard while taking care of his brother Chuck? While he is doing that, he tried to protect Chuck from his law firm, thinking Howard is the bad guy.

So BCS started out with Jimmy trying hard to be a good guy that loyal to his brother.

When he got a big case, he went to his brother to help his brother feel useful but Chuck ended up screwing Jimmy. It is so important to Chuck to screw Jimmy that he is willing to suffer the pain to use a cellphone to call Howard.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Wed May 24, 2017 12:56 am

When did Chuck screw Jimmy over a case? I've seen Chuck try to protect his firm by a) not hiring Jimmy which we can all agree was a smart move and b) warning Jimmy not to do unethical things with the Sandpiper case that could ruin it. But I don't remember what you're talking about.

BCS started with Jimmy being slipping Jimmy. He was good to Chuck for sure, but he was not trying hard to be a good guy. He was running fake car accident scams with those twins. Jimmy has his own code and has helped Chuck immensely, but I wouldn't call him loyal to Chuck. What he did to Chuck with the file tampering showed that he was far from loyal.

Victoria Raverna · Post by **Victoria Raverna** » Wed May 24, 2017 2:37 am

McNutt wrote:When did Chuck screw Jimmy over a case? I've seen Chuck try to protect his firm by a) not hiring Jimmy which we can all agree was a smart move and b) warning Jimmy not to do unethical things with the Sandpiper case that could ruin it. But I don't remember what you're talking about.

BCS started with Jimmy being slipping Jimmy. He was good to Chuck for sure, but he was not trying hard to be a good guy. He was running fake car accident scams with those twins. Jimmy has his own code and has helped Chuck immensely, but I wouldn't call him loyal to Chuck. What he did to Chuck with the file tampering showed that he was far from loyal.

In this episode:

http://breakingbad.wikia.com/wiki/Pimento

Spoiler:

Act I:

...

Jimmy crashes on Chuck's couch that night, exhausted from burning the midnight oil. Chuck, however, is wide awake and on a mission. He steals past his sleeping brother and retrieves a pencil and an oven mitt. Wrapped in his trusty space blanket, Chuck tiptoes outside and collects Jimmy's cell phone from the mailbox. Grimacing, he turns it on and uses the eraser end of the pencil to dial. "Hello. It's me." Chuck says into the phone.

...

Act IV:

...

The next morning, Jimmy visits Chuck and tells him he's going to give the case to HHM. Chuck agrees that this is for the best. He offers to put a good word in with Howard -- maybe he can wear the other partners down and convince them to change their minds about bringing Jimmy aboard. Jimmy appreciates this, then is struck by an idea: Chuck could threaten to leave HHM. With the way the staff applauded his arrival, there's no way the partners would risk Chuck's return. When Chuck hesitates, Jimmy strikes: He already knows that Chuck is not remotely interested in bringing Jimmy into the fold. Since Jimmy always turns off his phone when he puts it in Chuck's mailbox, he became suspicious when he found the battery dead. A call to the phone company revealed a deleted call from his phone two nights prior, a call to Howard, in the middle of the night, while Jimmy was asleep on the couch. Only one person could have made that call: Chuck.

Furious, Jimmy accuses Chuck of telling Howard not to let him work on the case, just like he must have told Howard not to hire him after he passed the bar years ago. Jimmy demands to know why Chuck has been working against him. Chuck angrily replies that Jimmy is not a real lawyer, having taken shortcuts like online courses and applying to the University of American Samoa. "You're still Slippin' Jimmy!" Chuck shouts. And while he can handle Slippin' Jimmy just fine, Slippin' Jimmy with a law degree is like "a chimp with a machine gun".

A calm comes over Jimmy as he realises what his brother really thinks of him. "I am done" he says, explaining that he's brought over enough supplies to last Chuck a few days -- after that, Chuck will have to fend for himself. Heartbroken, Jimmy walks out of the house without turning back.

McNutt · Post by **McNutt** » Wed May 24, 2017 7:43 am

Yeah, that was my biggest complaint against Chuck. Not that he held Jimmy back, which he should have because Jimmy is irresponsible and unethical, but because Chuck didn't have the guts to tell Jimmy and made Howard be the bad guy.

You can't wash away a lifetime of being slimey. Jimmy was showing a lot of hustle there, but he was still a time bomb waiting to take everybody down. Chuck made the right decision to protect everyone. He just doesn't have the backbone to do it himself.

Jaymann · Post by **Jaymann** » Wed May 24, 2017 9:35 am

Chuck is a schmuck. He makes noises about the rule of law, but witness the way he laid in wait to entrap Jimmy. And what is a successful lawyer but a legal con man? The only ethical difference between the two brothers is Jimmy is a lovable con man.