NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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LordMortis
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

Post by LordMortis »

tru1cy wrote:Honestly, conservatives have no one to blame but themselves about the level of distrust with the black community
LawBeefaroni wrote:Black conservative or black Conservative(tm)? Because all the black communities I've interacted with have had plenty of conservatives who are accepted.
Squish these two together. Conservative(tm)s are knit together by exclusion and part of that exclusion is by race and that have usurped what it means to be conservative for worse or worsest. There was a neat (or disgusting really) history research I posted in R&P not too long ago about this.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

Post by Turtle »

Crazy, but here's a thought: Has she been effective in her position?

Traditionally roles in these kind of civil rights organizations go to people that are part of that oppressed race, just to make sure that they have someone looking out for them and are able to empathize or experience the oppression first hand.

So, has she been doing her job?

Because while it is weird that she would change her appearance and maybe lie about her race. She seems to have embraced the culture and look, and that's saying something if you want to be a part of a culture that is the one being oppressed. Heck, she looks close enough to "black" that honest, she's probably experienced real racism directly. She did grow up without that, though.

And race overall is just a convenient human construct anyway. You'd be surprised how much mixing of genes flows and descent go on.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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If she was effective then that just shows that race doesn't matter much. The question should be whether or not she can be effective now. I imagine it will be very difficult for her to be effective while her pants are constantly on fire.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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Grifman wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
McNutt wrote: But I'd like to hear why it's not analogous. A man wants to be a woman so we treat that person as a woman. A white person wants to be a black person, but we do not accept that.
Because people who identify as transgender or transsexual are usually people who are born with typical male or female anatomies but feel as though they’ve been born into the “wrong body.” It's not a choice, it's a internal reality. It's not delusional.
Because people who identify as transrace are usually people who are born with typical racial characteristics but feel as though they've been born into the wrong body/race. It's not a choice, it's an internal reality.

See what I did :)

Took a legitimate medical diagnosis and changed it to make-believe to match your thoughts on the matter?

This isn't rocket science and it's not based on your (or my) opinion.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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McNutt wrote:I'm sure I do. I willfully acknowledge my ignorance on the matter.
The good news is that solving that, will solve your initial question (for why gender identity issues are treated differently than racial identity issues - if the latter is even a real thing).

Gender dysphoria is a thing. Racial dysphoria is not a thing. Therefore it is not unreasonable that people would react to A different than they would react to B. A != B.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

Post by RunningMn9 »

Also, isn't her fitness to be in the leadership of the Spokane NAACP sort of something for the Spokane NAACP to decide? Why on earth would I possibly care?
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

Post by Cortilian »

RunningMn9 wrote:
McNutt wrote:I'm sure I do. I willfully acknowledge my ignorance on the matter.
Gender dysphoria is a thing. Racial dysphoria is not a thing. Therefore it is not unreasonable that people would react to A different than they would react to B. A != B.
30 years ago Gender dysphoria was not a thing. So maybe your just the modern times Archie Bunker.

I'm personally starting to feel very very Native American. I hear they get great preference for government contracts.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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Gender dysphoria has always been a thing.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

Post by Grifman »

GreenGoo wrote:Took a legitimate medical diagnosis and changed it to make-believe to match your thoughts on the matter?

This isn't rocket science and it's not based on your (or my) opinion.
I'm applying the same logic, there is no "make believe" on my part, just logic. So me where there is a flaw in my logic? Each person wants to be something that they are physically not. Why are you accepting of one and not the other? You're being very inconsistent.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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Grifman wrote:I'm applying the same logic, there is no "make believe" on my part, just logic. So me where there is a flaw in my logic?
Your flaw is that you think this is a logic problem. Gender dysphoria isn't a "choice". It's not a "want". A person with it isn't "lying" and claiming to be something they are not. So treating someone with gender dysphoria differently than treating someone that lies about her race is perfectly consistent. There is literally no reason to treat them the same.

It's like if my daughter skipped school because she lied about being sick - I wouldn't treat her the same way that I would treat a co-worker who missed work because their spouse died - simply because they both missed work/school.
And in banks across the world
Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews
And every other race, creed, colour, tint or hue
Get down on their knees and pray
The raccoon and the groundhog neatly
Make up bags of change
But the monkey in the corner
Well he's slowly drifting out of range
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

Post by cheeba »

This woman is sounding worser and worser.
Rachel Dolezal once did not let a student participate in a class activity about race and culture because she did not appear Hispanic enough, the student told BuzzFeed News on Friday.
Source
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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Grifman wrote:White is the new black.
Actually, with that spray tan, orange is the new black.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

Post by LordMortis »

RunningMn9 wrote:Gender dysphoria isn't a "choice". It's not a "want".
Like Fire Engine dysphoria? Is that *really* a want?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cESaxe_HT5I
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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RunningMn9 wrote:Gender dysphoria has always been a thing.

This.

You guys make it sound like Bruce Jenner just decided recently what gender he is, and that this is the first you've heard of it.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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A person who I found attractive that we decided had enough of a mutual attraction that we decided to carry it on at one of domiciles. I know I would behave quite differently if she said she was not African-American than if she said she had man parts between her legs.

I find this debate fascinating.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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Grifman wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:Took a legitimate medical diagnosis and changed it to make-believe to match your thoughts on the matter?

This isn't rocket science and it's not based on your (or my) opinion.
I'm applying the same logic, there is no "make believe" on my part, just logic
It's a medical condition, like congenital heart defects, schizophrenia, autism, blindness, deafness, etc etc.

Are you telling me that your logic allows you to suddenly have holes in your heart valves?

I'm not being inconsistent, you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what is involved in a transgender condition and diagnosis.

Again, call me when children are being diagnosed with your imaginary transrace condition.

Read a book, dude. Or even just the wiki. This isn't just some publicity stunt dreamed up by the Kardashians.

Here's some history of Transgender in America, there are examples from pre-1900's, but around 1950-60 things really started to be more formally recognized.
History of the transgender community in the United States wrote:1950s and 1960s

The 1950s and 1960s saw some of the first transgender organizations and publications, but law and medicine did not respond favorably to growing awareness of transgender people.

The most famous American transgender person of the time was Christine Jorgensen, who in 1952 became the first widely publicized person to have undergone sex reassignment surgery, (in this case, male to female), creating a worldwide sensation.[8] However, she was denied a marriage license in 1959 when she attempted to marry a man, and her fiancee lost his job when his engagement to Christine became public knowledge.[9]

Virginia Prince, a transgender person who began living full-time as a woman in San Francisco in the 1940s, developed a widespread correspondence network with transgender people throughout Europe and the United States by the 1950s. She worked closely with Alfred Kinsey to bring the needs of transgender people to the attention of social scientists and sex reformers.
wiki wrote:Biological causes

Genetic variation, hormones, and differences in brain functioning and brain structures provide evidence for the biological etiology of the symptoms associated with GID. Twin studies indicate that GID is 62% heritable, evidencing the genetic influence or prenatal development as its origin.[22] In male-to-female transsexuals, GID is associated with variations in an individual's genes that make the individual less sensitive to androgens.[1] Zhou et al. (1995) found that in one area of the brain, male-to-female transsexuals have a typically female structure, and female-to-male transsexuals have a typically male structure.[23] Zhou et al. (1995) had a sample size of only six male-to-female transgender individuals. There may, for example, be some non-transgender heterosexual men with some brain structures that would be expected in a female, as the sample size in Zhou et al. (1995) is too small to exclude such possibilities. In addition, some aspects of trans women's hypothalamus functioning resemble that typical of cisgender women.[24]

The presence of typically female patterns of white matter and neuron patterns has also been observed in the brains of male-to-female transsexuals[25][26] and overall longer instances of the androgen receptor gene.[27] (Also see Causes of transsexualism.) However, these markers do not identify every individual who undergoes transition.[28]

Similar brain structure differences have, however, been noted between gay and heterosexual men, and between lesbian and heterosexual women.[29][30] More recent studies have found that circumstance and repeated activities such as meditation modify brain structures in a process called brain plasticity or neuroplasticity. In May 2014, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences reported that for fathers, parenting "rewires the male brain".[31]
Wiki again wrote: The question of whether to counsel young children to be happy with their assigned sex or to encourage them to continue to exhibit behaviors that do not match their assigned sex—or to explore a transsexual transition—is controversial. Some clinicians report that a significant proportion of young children diagnosed with gender identity disorder later do not exhibit the dysphoria.[41]

Professionals who treat gender identity disorder in children have begun to refer and prescribe hormones, known as a puberty blocker, to delay the onset of puberty until a child is believed to be old enough to make an informed decision on whether hormonal gender reassignment leading to surgical gender reassignment will be in that person's best interest.[42]
Psychological treatments
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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mori wrote:A person who I found attractive that we decided had enough of a mutual attraction that we decided to carry it on at one of domiciles. I know I would behave quit differently if she said she was not African-American than if she said she had man parts between her legs.

I find this debate fascinating.
It's not a debate. It's medical fact versus imaginary equivalency.

How *you* react is irrelevant except to you. Unless you're a medical doctor with some published studies, your opinion isn't important outside of a social and cultural level. No offense, but personal belief is not involved in this discussion, except through ignorance.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

Post by cheeba »

GreenGoo wrote:You guys make it sound like Bruce Jenner just decided recently what gender he is, and that this is the first you've heard of it.
Is there evidence that Jenner did not just decide this recently? I'm not saying he just made it up or anything, rather that it may be that he just recently became gender dysphoric.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

Post by mori »

GreenGoo wrote:
mori wrote:A person who I found attractive that we decided had enough of a mutual attraction that we decided to carry it on at one of domiciles. I know I would behave quit differently if she said she was not African-American than if she said she had man parts between her legs.

I find this debate fascinating.
How *you* react is irrelevant except to you. Unless you're a medical doctor with some published studies, your opinion isn't important outside of a social and cultural level. No offense, but personal belief is not involved in this discussion, except through ignorance.
I agree it is irrelevant. I just find race a lot less debatable than gender in social constructs. Is that good or bad?
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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cheeba wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:You guys make it sound like Bruce Jenner just decided recently what gender he is, and that this is the first you've heard of it.
Is there evidence that Jenner did not just decide this recently? I'm not saying he just made it up or anything, rather that it may be that he just recently became gender dysphoric.
Beats me, I haven't been cataloging his life for the last 65 years. I don't think that's now gender dystopia works, but despite knowing something about it, I'm no expert.

Anecdotally, there are many "jokes" about Bruce's gender that span decades, including a Family Guy episode that pre-dated any noise from the Kardashian clan. He has also had multiple plastic surgeries prior to this that many have claimed feminized his appearance.

Youtube Family Guy reference to Bruce being a woman from 2009

Another Family Guy episode from 2011 I think

Here's a crappy article chronically his changing appearance (including adam's apple shaving) over the years. The article is dated from 2013, approx. 2 years before the big "reveal".

Crappy news article
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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mori wrote:I agree it is irrelevant. I just find race a lot less debatable than gender in social constructs. Is that good or bad?
That would make an interesting discussion I think.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

Post by cheeba »

GreenGoo wrote:gender dystopia
That needs to be a thing.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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There have been jokes about Michael Jackson wanting to be white for decades. What does that prove?
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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Rip wrote:There have been jokes about Michael Jackson wanting to be white for decades. What does that prove?
Nothing, why?
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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cheeba wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:gender dystopia
That needs to be a thing.
:lol:
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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GreenGoo wrote:
Rip wrote:There have been jokes about Michael Jackson wanting to be white for decades. What does that prove?
Nothing, why?
Well if jokes about Jenner somehow prove that he has been gender dysphoric, then surely the jokes about MJ prove he was race dysphoric.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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Rip wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:
Rip wrote:There have been jokes about Michael Jackson wanting to be white for decades. What does that prove?
Nothing, why?
Well if jokes about Jenner somehow prove that he has been gender dysphoric, then surely the jokes about MJ prove he was race dysphoric.
They don't. Do understand what anecdotal evidence means?
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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GreenGoo wrote:
cheeba wrote:
GreenGoo wrote:You guys make it sound like Bruce Jenner just decided recently what gender he is, and that this is the first you've heard of it.
Is there evidence that Jenner did not just decide this recently? I'm not saying he just made it up or anything, rather that it may be that he just recently became gender dysphoric.
Beats me, I haven't been cataloging his life for the last 65 years. I don't think that's now gender dystopia works, but despite knowing something about it, I'm no expert.

Anecdotally, there are many "jokes" about Bruce's gender that span decades, including a Family Guy episode that pre-dated any noise from the Kardashian clan. He has also had multiple plastic surgeries prior to this that many have claimed feminized his appearance.

Youtube Family Guy reference to Bruce being a woman from 2009

Another Family Guy episode from 2011 I think

Here's a crappy article chronically his changing appearance (including adam's apple shaving) over the years. The article is dated from 2013, approx. 2 years before the big "reveal".

Crappy news article
I don't know about all around but since the plastic surgeries began Joel Mchale of The Soup started making jokes about Jenner turning into a woman. It's been a few years since I've watched The Soup, so his jokes have to go back five years or more. I don't know if that was before 2009 or not. I doubt it as I actually can't find reference to it on the Internet. Every time I look I find all of the Family Guy stuff... I've watched more than a couple of episodes if FG on Adult Swim late night when I can't sleep and it seems they were also prophetic about Bill Cosby, for which they did a lot of bits.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

Post by Smutly »

godhugh wrote:
Grifman wrote:White is the new black.
Actually, with that spray tan, orange is the new black.
Nice. :D
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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And she resigns. Anyone want to bet that the NAACP publicly supported her, but privately told her to GTFO?
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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RunningMn9 wrote:Gender dysphoria has always been a thing.
Medically its only been accepted since the 1970s (appeared in DSM in 1980).
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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GreenGoo wrote: It's a medical condition, like congenital heart defects, schizophrenia, autism, blindness, deafness, etc etc.

Are you telling me that your logic allows you to suddenly have holes in your heart valves?

I'm not being inconsistent, you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what is involved in a transgender condition and diagnosis.
I think its a little more complex than you make it seem. It is a medical condition now. It has not always been seen that way.
wiki wrote:Biological causes

Genetic variation, hormones, and differences in brain functioning and brain structures provide evidence for the biological etiology of the symptoms associated with GID. Twin studies indicate that GID is 62% heritable, evidencing the genetic influence or prenatal development as its origin.[22] In male-to-female transsexuals, GID is associated with variations in an individual's genes that make the individual less sensitive to androgens.[1] Zhou et al. (1995) found that in one area of the brain, male-to-female transsexuals have a typically female structure, and female-to-male transsexuals have a typically male structure.[23] Zhou et al. (1995) had a sample size of only six male-to-female transgender individuals. There may, for example, be some non-transgender heterosexual men with some brain structures that would be expected in a female, as the sample size in Zhou et al. (1995) is too small to exclude such possibilities. In addition, some aspects of trans women's hypothalamus functioning resemble that typical of cisgender women.[24]

The presence of typically female patterns of white matter and neuron patterns has also been observed in the brains of male-to-female transsexuals[25][26] and overall longer instances of the androgen receptor gene.[27] (Also see Causes of transsexualism.) However, these markers do not identify every individual who undergoes transition.[28]

Similar brain structure differences have, however, been noted between gay and heterosexual men, and between lesbian and heterosexual women.[29][30] More recent studies have found that circumstance and repeated activities such as meditation modify brain structures in a process called brain plasticity or neuroplasticity. In May 2014, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences reported that for fathers, parenting "rewires the male brain".
[31]
As your quote from Wikipedia says this isn't like a congenital heart defect or blindness. There might be structural differences but they are not unique to to transgender people. They might even, through neuroplasticity, change in response to conscious or unconscious stimulus.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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The more pictures I see of her, the more I have to wonder why her ethnicity wasn't questioned earlier. :?
Covfefe!
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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hepcat wrote:The more pictures I see of her, the more I have to wonder why her ethnicity wasn't questioned earlier. :?
Image
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Are you going to risk asking a black lady if she's really black?
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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hepcat wrote:The more pictures I see of her, the more I have to wonder why her ethnicity wasn't questioned earlier. :?
"Hey, are you really black?" rates right up there with "Hey, are you pregnant?" as something you just don't ask.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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"The world is suffering more today from the good people who want to mind other men's business than it is from the bad people who are willing to let everybody look after their own individual affairs." - Clarence Darrow
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Knowing what we now know, that picture is hilarious. It's like we're looking at Jim Belushi trying to get into a ladies night event at a black bar.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

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The local story regarding her brother and alleged child sexual assault is not so cheerful. :(
A source close to the sex assault case confirmed to The Denver Post on Monday that 39-year-old Joshua Dolezal, accused in Clear Creek County of four felony counts of child sex assault by one in a position of trust, is related to Rachel Dolezal.

The Daily News in New York City on Sunday night reported that Rachel Dolezal has been assisting the person her brother is accused of assaulting. She had previously told the The Spokesman-Review in Spokane, Wash., that she is suspicious of her parents' timing in discussing her ancestry. She told the newspaper the comments came as her brother faces a "key juncture" in a case against him.
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Re: NAACP leader has been lying about her race

Post by hepcat »

LawBeefaroni wrote:
hepcat wrote:The more pictures I see of her, the more I have to wonder why her ethnicity wasn't questioned earlier. :?
"Hey, are you really black?" rates right up there with "Hey, are you pregnant?" as something you just don't ask.

That's essentially the question that starrted all this though.
Covfefe!
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