The joys of working in education

[Madmarcus]

I love both my job and my profession but sometimes I need to vent.

As a secondary science teacher I have to be evaluated on pre- and post- tests created by the state. A new change means I need to be evaluated on such tests in two different classes. However I teach three preps all of which are AP. One prep is fairly common. The other two do not have a state test. So I have 3 days to write a MC test that will be used as my evaluation (and basically only my own evaluation).

Due to the way the evaluation works I have to write a test that the students will fail miserably now (with the side note that we’ve been in school for 3 weeks) yet will pass with flying colors in May. As in I really need to get +60% improvement.

Of course I hate the type of vocabulary questions that they really screams for. There are good questions I could ask but finding them and phrasing them in such a 0% to 100% manner in 3 days is not going to be fun. For that matter the specter of being accused of giving the students answers is ever present as I’m going to have to dig into my question banks to find useful stuff.

[Isgrimnur]

Nothing like testing kids on stuff they haven't been taught yet so they can show dramatic improvement after you've taught it to them.

You have my sympathies.

[Trent Steel]

It's awful for everyone involved... students, teachers, administrators, parents.

But great if you're making money off it.

[LordMortis]

[img]1.bp.blogspot.com/_hA8afXystbU/TT7vsBU8QHI/AAAAAAAACX8/v64ui38QtEA/s1600/trial.gif[/img]

None for me, thanx. I saw what we had in the 90s and the direction is was heading. Much like the entire state of Indiana, I don't know why anyone would teach here (Michigan) and here was still considered a top 10 state to teach in when last I looked.... even if we're falling...



This is the future:

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/educ ... /30906573/

[Madmarcus]

Nothing like testing kids on stuff they haven't been taught yet so they can show dramatic improvement after you've taught it to them.

Course long pretests are the devil.

[Madmarcus]

Of course its not helped by the fact that if I succeed in writing the test so that my teaching looks wonderful I"m going to feel dirty.

[El Guapo]

Nothing like testing kids on stuff they haven't been taught yet so they can show dramatic improvement after you've taught it to them.

Course long pretests are the devil.

Have the tests shown any causal connection between being taught a subject and learning about that subject?

[Madmarcus]

Have the tests shown any causal connection between being taught a subject and learning about that subject?

Yes, in that there is evidence that certain teaching methods* show a correlation with better results on the tests. You can't prove causality of course but its enough to indicate that it is possible to teach a subject in such a way that students (as a whole) will come away with more knowledge of that subject than they would have without the class.

Long term retention without individual, internal motivation? Connection between learning and better results on tests? Those are still open questions.


* in physics education - I have no idea about other areas

[Madmarcus]

None for me, thanx. I saw what we had in the 90s and the direction is was heading. Much like the entire state of Indiana, I don't know why anyone would teach here (Michigan) and here was still considered a top 10 state to teach in when last I looked.... even if we're falling...

Average salary of $61,000 in Michigan which isn't horrible.

I"m with you. I like what I do but I also realize that I'm in a very specialized position as a physics teacher (made even more favorable by the specific school I teach in). If I was going to have to move back to physical science in a random high school I'd retire in a heart beat.

[LordMortis]

None for me, thanx. I saw what we had in the 90s and the direction is was heading. Much like the entire state of Indiana, I don't know why anyone would teach here (Michigan) and here was still considered a top 10 state to teach in when last I looked.... even if we're falling...

Average salary of $61,000 in Michigan which isn't horrible.

I"m with you. I like what I do but I also realize that I'm in a very specialized position as a physics teacher (made even more favorable by the specific school I teach in). If I was going to have to move back to physical science in a random high school I'd retire in a heart beat.

While all of my liberal friends disagree with me, I don't think teachers in Michigan are underpaid, (and my conservative friends disagree with me, in that I don't think they are over paid, either) I do think our teachers and administrations are overburdened by Kafkaesque requirements with an educational requirement geared toward keeping classrooms full above all else for funding dominated by nothing more than teaching children low retention rate methods for passing tests and then discarding what they "learned" to make room for the next teat. I think we largely ignore skills mastery and almost completely ignore skills for living. And I don't think teachers or administrations get much say in the matter.

Beyond that, I can't see how the charter school fight education's soul based on the for profit prison system model doesn't crush the remaining spirit of every teacher in the state.

But that's me and I don't have kids and haven't been directly involved in public education for almost 20 years.

[LawBeefaroni]

You can't prove causality of course but its enough to indicate that it is possible to teach a subject in such a way that students (as a whole) will come away with more knowledge of that subject than they would have without the class.

This is in debate?

[Madmarcus]

You can't prove causality of course but its enough to indicate that it is possible to teach a subject in such a way that students (as a whole) will come away with more knowledge of that subject than they would have without the class.

This is in debate?

No. On the other hand it was a little unclear whether El Guapo wanted to start an argument about all teaching being more or less futile.

[El Guapo]

You can't prove causality of course but its enough to indicate that it is possible to teach a subject in such a way that students (as a whole) will come away with more knowledge of that subject than they would have without the class.

This is in debate?

No. On the other hand it was a little unclear whether El Guapo wanted to start an argument about all teaching being more or less futile.

I was joking about the value of pretesting.

[Madmarcus]

I was joking about the value of pretesting.

Sorry about taking the wrong meaning. I was being defensive about teaching as a whole and thought the worst of a comment that wasn't attacking in any way.

[wire]

I'm not sure what these tests are doing but in California they aren't helping kids get ready for college. Over 60% of our incoming freshman need to take writing and/or math remediation courses their freshman year. This leads to them being in school that much longer since these classes don't meet GE or major requirements and take up units that would.

[RMC]

My wife teaches Chemistry and Physics in Ohio, and is doing the same thing in regards to tests. This is her first year teaching Physics, so she is a little worried about that on top of the testing things she needs to develop.

She loves teaching, but we both think the pay is pretty good especially for starting out in a new field. She has 3 years teaching under her belt and makes a heck of a lot more than I did when I was three years into my profession. I make 2X what she does currently, but I have been doing it for over 10 years as well.

But she loves working with the High School students, and she gets paid extra to do some of the after school stuff she would have most likely done for free.

I feel your pain as a parent and spouse of a teacher going through what you are doing. Teachers are awesome, and they do a hard job for little respect, but you have mine sir.

[noxiousdog]

The tests aren't really for the kids (except the minimum standard stuff). They are for evaluating teachers and schools.

I definitely sympathize with teachers on standardized testing, but I have yet to hear of a better method of evaluation.

It would be nice if we could just assume nearly all teachers and nearly all administrations knew what they were doing and were trustworthy, but teachers are the first ones to rat out their administration and peers

[LordMortis]

The tests aren't really for the kids (except the minimum standard stuff). They are for evaluating teachers and schools.

I definitely sympathize with teachers on standardized testing, but I have yet to hear of a better method of evaluation.

It would be nice if we could just assume nearly all teachers and nearly all administrations knew what they were doing and were trustworthy, but teachers are the first ones to rat out their administration and peers

I suppose that depends on your goals. If you were just teaching your own child, would you evaluate them with a standardized test? Would you or someone other individual evaluate your success with a standardized test?

We have this scope that says we want to evaluate millions of children at once using the same objective method. You can't really come up with an alternate method when the method is defined in the scope.

I'm a huge fan of smaller scopes but that's not how we do things in the USA, especially when so many small governments are so corrupt and so many parents forming communities are so willfully ignorant when it comes to their own children's educations.

[Combustible Lemur]

None for me, thanx. I saw what we had in the 90s and the direction is was heading. Much like the entire state of Indiana, I don't know why anyone would teach here (Michigan) and here was still considered a top 10 state to teach in when last I looked.... even if we're falling...

Average salary of $61,000 in Michigan which isn't horrible.

I"m with you. I like what I do but I also realize that I'm in a very specialized position as a physics teacher (made even more favorable by the specific school I teach in). If I was going to have to move back to physical science in a random high school I'd retire in a heart beat.

While all of my liberal friends disagree with me, I don't think teachers in Michigan are underpaid, (and my conservative friends disagree with me, in that I don't think they are over paid, either) I do think our teachers and administrations are overburdened by Kafkaesque requirements with an educational requirement geared toward keeping classrooms full above all else for funding dominated by nothing more than teaching children low retention rate methods for passing tests and then discarding what they "learned" to make room for the next teat. I think we largely ignore skills mastery and almost completely ignore skills for living. And I don't think teachers or administrations get much say in the matter.

Beyond that, I can't see how the charter school fight education's soul based on the for profit prison system model doesn't crush the remaining spirit of every teacher in the state.

But that's me and I don't have kids and haven't been directly involved in public education for almost 20 years.

No, that's a pretty accurate take on the matter. I may put in the seasonal hours and have education equivalency of a higher paid profession, but I get a shit load more vacation, and still make more than more than 50% of families in the country. I don't know how low paying states still have any teachers.

Lol, oh yeah Kansas ED is collapsing.

[Combustible Lemur]

The tests aren't really for the kids (except the minimum standard stuff). They are for evaluating teachers and schools.

I definitely sympathize with teachers on standardized testing, but I have yet to hear of a better method of evaluation.

It would be nice if we could just assume nearly all teachers and nearly all administrations knew what they were doing and were trustworthy, but teachers are the first ones to rat out their administration and peers

That's fair, but it's gone overboard. Your child's school is spending millions of dollars on companies that have woven the teacher evaluation model into your child's evaluation, whether it is efficient or not.

Lots of the ideas are good, but for example our school just spent two weeks and over a 100k paying people to tell a lot of us what we already know and do in a way that was flashy and new. And this happens every year.
Many of the most useful topics could have been explored and taught by veteran teachers who have to be there anyway for a fraction of the cost.

As for the testing, until standards really address things like economic, social cultural, and vertical aligned, issues they are skewed at best.

[noxiousdog]

The tests aren't really for the kids (except the minimum standard stuff). They are for evaluating teachers and schools.

I definitely sympathize with teachers on standardized testing, but I have yet to hear of a better method of evaluation.

It would be nice if we could just assume nearly all teachers and nearly all administrations knew what they were doing and were trustworthy, but teachers are the first ones to rat out their administration and peers

That's fair, but it's gone overboard. Your child's school is spending millions of dollars on companies that have woven the teacher evaluation model into your child's evaluation, whether it is efficient or not.

Lots of the ideas are good, but for example our school just spent two weeks and over a 100k paying people to tell a lot of us what we already know and do in a way that was flashy and new. And this happens every year.
Many of the most useful topics could have been explored and taught by veteran teachers who have to be there anyway for a fraction of the cost.

As for the testing, until standards really address things like economic, social cultural, and vertical aligned, issues they are skewed at best.

I'm sure you're right both because you're immersed in it, but also because that's how large programs, both public and private, work.

But what is the alternative?

[Combustible Lemur]

The tests aren't really for the kids (except the minimum standard stuff). They are for evaluating teachers and schools.

I definitely sympathize with teachers on standardized testing, but I have yet to hear of a better method of evaluation.

It would be nice if we could just assume nearly all teachers and nearly all administrations knew what they were doing and were trustworthy, but teachers are the first ones to rat out their administration and peers

That's fair, but it's gone overboard. Your child's school is spending millions of dollars on companies that have woven the teacher evaluation model into your child's evaluation, whether it is efficient or not.

Lots of the ideas are good, but for example our school just spent two weeks and over a 100k paying people to tell a lot of us what we already know and do in a way that was flashy and new. And this happens every year.
Many of the most useful topics could have been explored and taught by veteran teachers who have to be there anyway for a fraction of the cost.

As for the testing, until standards really address things like economic, social cultural, and vertical aligned, issues they are skewed at best.

I'm sure you're right both because you're immersed in it, but also because that's how large programs, both public and private, work.

But what is the alternative?

To testing? I don't deal with core data enough to evaluate it. For teacher effectiveness? Move to an apprenticeship model and make it a desirable career.

[noxiousdog]

For teacher effectiveness? Move to an apprenticeship model and make it a desirable career.

I'm not saying you can't make teachers better, I'm questioning how to prove it and how to find the bad teachers without relying on questionable administrators.

And there's also the issue of finding the bad administrators.

[raydude]

Beyond that, I can't see how the charter school fight education's soul based on the for profit prison system model doesn't crush the remaining spirit of every teacher in the state.

Charter schools are still a black-box to me, so I decided to google them and find out what they're all about. This looked like a good start. The thing that worries me though, is this line from the article:

They operate with freedom from some of the regulations that are imposed upon district schools

.

Why? Why the exception? If the regulations are bad all-around then why not get rid of them for regular schools as well? If the exception somehow gives the charter school an advantage then, isn't that stacking the deck against public schools? And what ending would a pro-charter school politician want? What if every school was a charter school? Would we still be able to say every kid can get an education or will the truly poor kids just not get one?

[LordMortis]

I can't speak for all states but what's happening in Michigan is happening because of small town corruption escalating to the state level being supported by the willfully ignorant, ultimately extending the problems past small towns.

This was the way to get the voucher system where you can take away per pupil money from public school budget and place it into a private organization.


This is what they are supposed to offer:

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/PSAQA_54517_7.pdf

This is the reality:

http://archive.freep.com/interactive/ar ... ccountable

Why? Why the exception?

Theoretically, the exception is for "higher accountability" and the ability to offer something traditional public education can not. I actually can live with that. But the reality is that there is lower accountability and by removing money from traditional public school you are removing the ability to get more out of the per student pools. If you have 12 elementary schools in a town that would normally have 4 then you have 3 times the maintenance staff. 3 times the culinary staff. More administration, etc... resulting in everybody getting less, not more.

[stessier]

This is the reality:

http://archive.freep.com/interactive/ar ... ccountable

Those schools have waaaaaaay more Free/Reduced lunch students. There is a clear link between that stat and performance. Get the state numbers for the same percentage and see what the results show.

[raydude]

I can't speak for all states but what's happening in Michigan is happening because of small town corruption escalating to the state level being supported by the willfully ignorant, ultimately extending the problems past small towns.

This was the way to get the voucher system where you can take away per pupil money from public school budget and place it into a private organization.

Why? Why the exception?

Theoretically, the exception is for "higher accountability" and the ability to offer something traditional public education can not. I actually can live with that. But the reality is that there is lower accountability and by removing money from traditional public school you are removing the ability to get more out of the per student pools. If you have 12 elementary schools in a town that would normally have 4 then you have 3 times the maintenance staff. 3 times the culinary staff. More administration, etc... resulting in everybody getting less, not more.

But again, why? I'm getting this eerie feeling that whoever is behind the "ra-ra" charter school system is MIchigan's version of Lex Luthor. But then again, even Luthor doesn't use poor, uneducated henchmen, so why cripple Michigan to the point where their children end up uneducated? Even an evil villain wouldn't do that. Unless he was the Joker.

[stessier]

How are charter school crippling the state again?

[LordMortis]

But again, why? I'm getting this eerie feeling that whoever is behind the "ra-ra" charter school system is MIchigan's version of Lex Luthor. But then again, even Luthor doesn't use poor, uneducated henchmen, so why cripple Michigan to the point where their children end up uneducated? Even an evil villain wouldn't do that. Unless he was the Joker.

I rather doubt their evil. Profit driven, yes. Evil? Why compete for funds? 1) to push your world view like a private school would only doing it with public funding, but really pushing a world view is a means to an end. 2) Profit. There is a business model that allows money to be made based on a guaranteed per student flow of money.

How are charter school crippling the state again?

Crippling? Not so much. That's a strong term. Hurting the larger goals of education in the state? By diverting funds from existing larger infrastructures designed to accommodate whole communities whom have already agreed to funding education at a certain level and forcing the need for redundant services from the top down.

[stessier]

How are charter school crippling the state again?

Crippling? Not so much. That's a strong term. Hurting the larger goals of education in the state? By diverting funds from existing larger infrastructures designed to accommodate whole communities whom have already agreed to funding education at a certain level and forcing the need for redundant services from the top down.

Are you sure charter schools do that? Jalen Rose has the Jalen Rose academy in Detroit. He is very clear that it gets zero funding from the city/state. The school has to raise the entire budget itself. He's said all charter schools get no funding, but I'm willing to believe he's only using his own experience when making that statement.

[LordMortis]

How are charter school crippling the state again?

Crippling? Not so much. That's a strong term. Hurting the larger goals of education in the state? By diverting funds from existing larger infrastructures designed to accommodate whole communities whom have already agreed to funding education at a certain level and forcing the need for redundant services from the top down.

Are you sure charter schools do that? Jalen Rose has the Jalen Rose academy in Detroit. He is very clear that it gets zero funding from the city/state. The school has to raise the entire budget itself. He's said all charter schools get no funding, but I'm willing to believe he's only using his own experience when making that statement.

Not all charter schools are created equal. State money has strings attached to it. "Public charter" schools get state money. If Jalen Rose gets no money from the state then exactly none of bitching applies to them. "public charters" get equivalent per pupil funding as does a public school in the community in which they are located. Their funding is pulled from the school the pupil would otherwise attend.

Strings attached to public charters for instance, as of today, you cannot have religious ties to a "public charter" school. I should have prefixed "public" in front of charter from the beginning.

Also note that not all public charter schools are problematic in my eyes, either. Cass Tech and Cap Stone, for instance, are beacons of hope for a proper education in the city of Detroit and they probably waste a lot less money than does the DPS, which itself is corrupt and prone to spending waste based on nepotism. But I do not believe the examples of success do not speak of success of the legislation or greater implantation of that legislation.

[Zarathud]

Charter schools have the unstated goals of crony capitalism, defunding even "local" government, and breaking Democrat leaning teacher unions. The stated goal is higher education achievement, but that's accomplished by skimming off the most advantaged student body and eliminating standards. The economic savings come largely from eliminating disabled/special needs funding and reducing salaries -- enough to offset any profit.

The Charter schools can even avoid administrative "red tape" requirements that are good policy and necessary. I have two kids with diabetes and their federally required (but constantly fought for) ADA needs would not be met by a Charter school -- having a school nurse or trained person is a "luxury" or "red tape" the Charter doesn't "have to" follow. Their approach nears criminal neglect.

Charter schools contribute to a growing two-tier educational system where those who need the most help won't get it from the Charter school reform.

[Combustible Lemur]

I've thought about a couple long posts but am going g to give the sound bite versions.

My general disagreement for vouchers and charters is, despite a growing culture of boutique stores walmart and it's policies serve a massive chunk of the population.
Make as many boutique schools as you want it's highly unlikely that you can see a 100% saturation. You're more likely to see "budget schools" enshrined more than before, since the theory of Options! will provide an excuse not to bolster failing school.

As for evaluations, if teachers were trained better and more people were vying for even the less desirable teaching jobs, evaluations could be less onerous on curriculum, as we might see a broad spectrum increase in performance, retention, and collaboration.

[Holman]

Charter schools have the unstated goals of crony capitalism, defunding even "local" government, and breaking Democrat leaning teacher unions. The stated goal is higher education achievement, but that's accomplished by skimming off the most advantaged student body and eliminating standards. The economic savings come largely from eliminating disabled/special needs funding and reducing salaries -- enough to offset any profit.

The Charter schools can even avoid administrative "red tape" requirements that are good policy and necessary. I have two kids with diabetes and their federally required (but constantly fought for) ADA needs would not be met by a Charter school -- having a school nurse or trained person is a "luxury" or "red tape" the Charter doesn't "have to" follow. Their approach nears criminal neglect.

Charter schools contribute to a growing two-tier educational system where those who need the most help won't get it from the Charter school reform.

Typically a charter gets a per-pupil fee equivalent to what public schools get, but there is no requirement that they spend the money on instruction or student resources. They are not required to serve all students (as public schools are), so they can ignore the expensive needs of kids with learning or other disabilities: for instance, a charter can tell parents of an autistic child that they just don't accommodate their needs. While a public school might be spending a quarter or a third of its staffing budget on special-needs accommodation, the charter can simply exclude those kids while drawing the same per-student budget from public finds. And since charters pay their teachers less than public districts do, you might ask where all the extra money goes...

There are a few good, well-performing, independent, etc. charters out there. But the image of charters as scrappy home-grown solutions has got to go. Charters are big business, most of them run by chains that come in and essentially take over huge chunks of a city system. They're basically the educational equivalent of HMO's, and they are very definitely run for profit.

[Zarathud]

Agreed. When charters have funding for special needs, it generally serves a marketing purpose or wealthy persons have stepped in to endow those programs. I know because I've drafted one of those endowments and helped set up the structure for more than one charter/private school.

[Isgrimnur]

Detroit sick-out

The list of Detroit Public Schools closed to day because of teacher sick-outs has grown to 24.
...
The move comes one day after similar sick-outs shut down nearly 60 Detroit schools yesterday. Teachers demanded during a rally yesterday that their voices be heard and that the district address what they've described as deplorable teaching conditions.
...
Under Michigan law, it is illegal for teachers strike and they can be docked a day’s pay for each day they are out and face fines of $5,000 per day.

But before those penalties can be imposed, the district must file a formal complaint with the Michigan Employment Relations Commission. As of late Monday, the district had not filed a formal complaint.
...
If a complaint is filed, the commission must hold hearings and give the teachers the chance to defend themselves before determining that their actions constitute a strike. As of this morning, no formal complaint had been filed, MERC spokeswoman Tanya Baker said.
...
The district closed the nearly 60 schools because more than 50% of the teachers in those schools called in sick. The number of schools closed represent more than half the schools in the district, and it was far more than the 35 organizers predicted would close.
...
A group of teachers called Detroit Strikes To Win met Sunday night to discuss the sick-outs and a possible district-wide strike. The group, led by ousted teacher union president Steve Conn, is upset with what they call the ruination of the school system by the state.

[LawBeefaroni]

Chicago teachers will probably strike later this month. CPS is running a $480M deficit and has sold bonds (junk rated)at 10 times the going rate for public schools.

A taxable issue (the city had to issue taxable bonds since the money isn’t technically going towards a public good) that is maturing in 2042 priced Thursday with a yield of 7.98%.

The tax-free issue maturing in 2039 priced Thursday at 5.69%. For an investor in the highest federal tax bracket, that’s equivalent to a 9% taxable yield.

“That’s stunningly high,” says Jim Colby, chief municipal strategist at Van Eck Global. “It’s far and away significantly cheaper and more attractive than anything of a similar credit quality in the muni space.”

One reason these yields strike experts so high is because both Fitch Ratings and Moody’s Investors Service rated the issues BBB-plus, which is investment grade (Moody’s wasn’t hired to rate these issues by the city). “Chicago is not Detroit,” says Colby. “It is not a city whose credit rating should be below investment grade.”

That last part, not sure about. At least as far as finances go.

[ImLawBoy]

I heard they couldn't strike until March due to procedural reasons. Regardless, we're not looking forward to it.

[LawBeefaroni]

I heard they couldn't strike until March due to procedural reasons. Regardless, we're not looking forward to it.

I think it's before the state Labor Board right now. They're supposed to rule by the end of the month.

Claypool said that 5,000 layoffs are still on the table for February. Of course he's using those as leverage to try to compel the CTU to join CPS against Rauner for teh moneys.

[Isgrimnur]

Detroit sick-out

Nearly all Detroit public schools are closed again as mass teacher sick-outs over pay roll into a second day. Meanwhile, a Michigan panel holds a hearing on bills that would bail out and overhaul Detroit’s ailing school district, which will run out of money at the end of June. The hearing comes as GOP leaders lash out at teachers for the sickouts, which gave nearly 45,000 schoolchildren another unscheduled day off. The educators stopped short of calling it a strike, instead saying they called the massive sick-out in response to an announcement that the district wouldn’t be able to pay teachers who deferred part of their salaries to get checks during the summer months.
...
The Detroit Federation of Teachers has not supported sick-outs held earlier this year by some of its members, but union leadership is growing more frustrated with the district’s poor finances. The sick-outs on Monday and Tuesday closed 94 of the district’s 97 schools, eclipsing a January sick-out in which classes were canceled at 88 schools. The union was told over the weekend by state-appointed transition manager Steven Rhodes that there would be no money after June 30 to pay teachers who have chosen to have their paychecks spread out over the entire year. Union president Ivy Bailey said that an inability by Rhodes to guarantee those teachers would receive paychecks during the summer for work they would have already performed was the breaking point.