[WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in school

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RuperT
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by RuperT »

We don't give them the authority to dismiss negligible risk.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by GreenGoo »

RuperT wrote:We don't give them the authority to dismiss negligible risk.
What about no risk? There is literally no discernible risk here (after the facts became known). As I've said, caution is fine, robotic response to an "incident" is like watching a Rube Goldberg machine start up.

The problem is that people have created this indistinct, undefinable threshold where things become serious. But since it's ill-defined and unable to utilize their own critical thinking skills either because they have none or their hands are tied by policy, everything becomes a serious event.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by El Guapo »

Blackhawk wrote:Sort of playing devil's advocate here, but that's where liability gets in the way. If, in six months, the kid comes back with a real bomb and the fact that this incident was hand-waved gets out, the school district will be paying a lot of people a lot of money.
Only now they may well wind up paying a lot of money for a civil rights violation, which is an entirely foreseeable consequence of arresting a guy named Ahmed for building a clock.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by LawBeefaroni »

GreenGoo wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:Sort of playing devil's advocate here, but that's where liability gets in the way. If, in six months, the kid comes back with a real bomb and the fact that this incident was hand-waved gets out, the school district will be paying a lot of people a lot of money.
I know the US is a litigation happy place, but how on earth do you go from clock, to liable for a bomb?
You get there by two words: "Ahmed Mohamed." And by "you" I don't mean you or BH, but some people. The idea that it was a dry run has already been bandied about.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by El Guapo »

GreenGoo wrote: The problem is that people have created this indistinct, undefinable threshold where things become serious. But since it's ill-defined and unable to utilize their own critical thinking skills either because they have none or their hands are tied by policy, everything becomes a serious event.
Right, this is I think the best description of how this happened. Teacher sees a bomb-like thing, immediately goes into "this must be a crisis!" mode, and this becomes an emergency in search of a rationale.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by Blackhawk »

GreenGoo wrote:
edit: I know you're playing devil's advocate. I'm punching the devil in the mouth. And by devil, I mean every single person who thinks this event is cause for alarm after the fact.
Hey, punch away. It isn't my devil, just the one I'm stuck cohabitating with. I wanted to answer the 'why', but really didn't want to make anyone think that I supported the why.

One way or another, the school was backed into a corner. We've litigated and legislated our way around common sense to such a point that, even if you have it, you're afraid to apply it.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by Anonymous Bosch »

Blackhawk wrote:We've litigated and legislated our way around common sense to such a point that, even if you have it, you're afraid to apply it.
Indeed, one wonders how much longer it'll be until it's correctly referred to as uncommon sense.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by naednek »

RunningMn9 wrote:
Kasey Chang wrote:
I recently visited a high school in this country, in the United States, and parents were telling me about their son. High school English, 10th grade, the assignment was to write a story about anything you like. This boy chose to write a story about the battle of Stalingrad, winter of 1942, from the perspective of a Russian soldier. He researched it at considerable length, described the Russian soldier patrolling the street when he was ambushed by a German solider, the Russian soldier fires his rifle at point blank range into the face of the German soldier. Then describes what happens when you fire a military rifle at point blank range in another man’s face. What happens is, the head explodes, a piece of eyeball goes this way, a piece of chin goes that way, some brain matter goes this way. This boy was suspended from school, the parents were told he could not return until the parent’s secured, at their own expense, a professional evaluation and a letter from the professional assuring the school, and the district, that the boy posed no imminent danger to himself or to others.
In 7th grade before I moved to NJ I had to do a creative writing assignment. The result was a mashup of horror genre staples and "Red Dawn", which was still a recent movie. It was *incredibly* violent, with me (as a 7th grader) conducting most of the violence. I got an A+ on the paper, and the teacher actually read it to the class as an example to emulate.

Times have changed.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by Blackhawk »

Hell, I used to read The Poor Man's James Bond in high school history class.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by Isgrimnur »

Anonymous Bosch wrote:
Blackhawk wrote:We've litigated and legislated our way around common sense to such a point that, even if you have it, you're afraid to apply it.
Indeed, one wonders how much longer it'll be until it's correctly referred to as uncommon sense.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by Pyperkub »

Black Lives definitely Matter Lorini!

Also: There are three ways to not tell the truth: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by em2nought »

hepcat wrote:
em2nought wrote:If he'd only read the Islamic State's Little Golden E-book "How to Survive in the West"? http://www.catholic.org/news/internatio ... p?id=60527 he would have known to keep any weapons-related work confined to his home. :ninja:
Are all Muslims terrorists in your eyes?
Potentially

I think that kid was deliberately messin' with the school system. He knew what that thing might be mistaken for since his teachers aren't the obvious bomb experts that we've got on this site. LMAO
Technically, he shouldn't be here.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by hepcat »

Blackhawk wrote:Hell, I used to read The Poor Man's James Bond in high school history class.
At least you weren't the poor man's Pussy Galore.
em2nought wrote:
hepcat wrote:
em2nought wrote:If he'd only read the Islamic State's Little Golden E-book "How to Survive in the West"? http://www.catholic.org/news/internatio ... p?id=60527 he would have known to keep any weapons-related work confined to his home. :ninja:
Are all Muslims terrorists in your eyes?
Potentially
And every white guy is potentially a KKK member.

You're being ridiculous. This was a 14 year old kid who just happened to be Muslim and...

...you know what, never mind. It's really not worth it.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by Scuzz »

I know they probably aren't but the heads on that top photo sure look photoshopped.

And yea, it was a different time. The only bombers then were disgruntled hippies, or were the Weathermen a thing of the past by then.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by GreenGoo »

Scuzz wrote:And yea, it was a different time. The only bombers then were disgruntled hippies, or were the Weathermen a thing of the past by then.
There are no bombers TODAY. At least not in America. It really wasn't a different time.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by rshetts2 »

em2nought wrote:
hepcat wrote:
em2nought wrote:If he'd only read the Islamic State's Little Golden E-book "How to Survive in the West"? http://www.catholic.org/news/internatio ... p?id=60527 he would have known to keep any weapons-related work confined to his home. :ninja:
Are all Muslims terrorists in your eyes?
Potentially

I think that kid was deliberately messin' with the school system. He knew what that thing might be mistaken for since his teachers aren't the obvious bomb experts that we've got on this site. LMAO
Well that reply seals it. You are absolutely and completely an unrepentant, racist bigot. Sadly you're just one of many in this country.
Well do you ever get the feeling that the story's too damn real and in the present tense?
Or that everybody's on the stage and it seems like you're the only person sitting in the audience?
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by Default »

MHS wrote:Watching the kid on MSNBC right now. Anyone want to lay odds on whether Teacher #1 gets fired or at least severely reprimanded for seeing it and telling him not to show anyone else because it looks like a bomb?
Teacher #1 was his engineering/robotics teacher, iirc. He could recognize the clock for what it was, a clock, made by soldering components together. I've done enough electronics work as a hobby to recognize that it's a kit clock. Since 99% of your soft sciences teachers don't do that kind of shit for fun, they aren't going to react in a reasonable way.
I'm sure his teacher probably wonders if it would have been better to hold on to it, but he's going to the White House and Space Camp, so some temporary discomfort is going to be overshadowed by all the positive events, not to mention the flood of support from around the world.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by Default »

rshetts2 wrote:
em2nought wrote:
hepcat wrote:
em2nought wrote:If he'd only read the Islamic State's Little Golden E-book "How to Survive in the West"? http://www.catholic.org/news/internatio ... p?id=60527 he would have known to keep any weapons-related work confined to his home. :ninja:
Are all Muslims terrorists in your eyes?
Potentially

I think that kid was deliberately messin' with the school system. He knew what that thing might be mistaken for since his teachers aren't the obvious bomb experts that we've got on this site. LMAO
Well that reply seals it. You are absolutely and completely an unrepentant, racist bigot. Sadly you're just one of many in this country.
And he was a good kid. Just like nearly all of the of the funny looking, funny smelling, funny talking people that don't look like me.


Except for those Canadians! :evil: Wreaking of Moosehead and backbacon, hiding behind that "oh, so politer than you" attitude, and what's with THOSE FUCKING KNIT HATS!!! WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE??? I hear that they have even tortured Frenchmen ( not that I really care about "frogs") into playing some cruel gladiatorial game for their sadistic pleasure. :( And now they are using Tim Horten's secret organization, masked by a thin facade of being a "coffee shop" to infiltrate AMERICA WITH HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF ILLEGAL CANADIANS, undermining our incomparable, indomitable national will!


Bastards! :evil:
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by silverjon »

HEY!

It's called a toque!
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

Unless one loses a precious thing, he will never know its true value. A little light finally scratches the darkness; it lets the exhausted one face his shattered dream and realize his path cannot be walked. Can man live happily without embracing his wounded heart?
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by GreenGoo »

rshetts2 wrote:Well that reply seals it. You are absolutely and completely an unrepentant, racist bigot. Sadly you're just one of many in this country.
I think Em is misunderstood. He likes to say outlandish shit, but he's not a troll in the usual sense. I don't actually know Em's thoughts on things since he so rarely writes his actual thoughts down.

He was obviously contrite and remorseful the last time everyone jumped down his throat. I tend to give him a lot of slack, because he's just like a friend who never gives you a real answer and mostly just wastes your time trying to have a serious conversation with him.

Shrug.

I love moosehead. Also, see silverjon's correction. I've never worn a knit hat in my life. I do own several toques however.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by GargoyleBoy »

El Guapo wrote:
GreenGoo wrote: The problem is that people have created this indistinct, undefinable threshold where things become serious. But since it's ill-defined and unable to utilize their own critical thinking skills either because they have none or their hands are tied by policy, everything becomes a serious event.
Right, this is I think the best description of how this happened. Teacher sees a bomb-like thing, immediately goes into "this must be a crisis!" mode, and this becomes an emergency in search of a rationale.
Except they didn't follow ANY bomb situation guidelines. They did not evacuate the school, they moved the device (to the principal's desk), they let the kid sit in the room with the device, etc.

At no time did any of them actually think it was a real bomb.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by YellowKing »

Well it sounds like they were treating it as a hoax bomb, which would be a serious charge in and of itself.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by GargoyleBoy »

Yeah, he's not being charged with anything.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by GreenGoo »

YellowKing wrote:Well it sounds like they were treating it as a hoax bomb, which would be a serious charge in and of itself.
Right. But for it to be a hoax bomb, the kid would have had to say "Hey! I've got a bomb here" when it wasn't really one. Instead, the kid said "Hey, I've got this homemade clock here" and people were like "is it a bomb? No. Is it a hoax bomb? It could be. I mean, it's not a bomb but it looks like a bomb to me, so even though it's not a bomb and the kid never claimed it was a bomb, let's handle it as if it's a hoax bomb and arrest him".

Does any of that make sense to you YK?

In order for it to be treated as a hoax bomb, someone would have to have implied that it was a bomb first. Typically that person can't be the one doing the arresting.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by GargoyleBoy »

I doubt he even said anything that could remotely suggest it was a hoax bomb, like:

"Yo, this clock is da bomb!"
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by Isgrimnur »

Texas Penal Code § 46.08
(a) A person commits an offense if the person knowingly manufactures, sells, purchases, transports, or possesses a hoax bomb with intent to use the hoax bomb to:
- (1) make another believe that the hoax bomb is an explosive or incendiary device; or
- (2) cause alarm or reaction of any type by an official of a public safety agency or volunteer agency organized to deal with emergencies.
(b) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
I would imagine that a teacher does not meet the qualifications under (a) (2). And seeing as the cops never called out the bomb squad, they certainly weren't alarmed. The 'reaction of any type' part of that statement seems too vague to be relied upon. If you showed a hoax bomb to a cop and he went, "yep, that's a hoax bomb", that would be sufficient to get you charged.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by GargoyleBoy »

Isgrimnur wrote:Texas Penal Code § 46.08
(a) A person commits an offense if the person knowingly manufactures, sells, purchases, transports, or possesses a hoax bomb with intent to use the hoax bomb to:
- (1) make another believe that the hoax bomb is an explosive or incendiary device; or
- (2) cause alarm or reaction of any type by an official of a public safety agency or volunteer agency organized to deal with emergencies.
(b) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
I would imagine that a teacher does not meet the qualifications under (a) (2). And seeing as the cops never called out the bomb squad, they certainly weren't alarmed. The 'reaction of any type' part of that statement seems too vague to be relied upon. If you showed a hoax bomb to a cop and he went, "yep, that's a hoax bomb", that would be sufficient to get you charged.
Very important part bolded.

The Cop can say "yep, that's a hoax bomb", but if the manufacturer didn't INTEND it to cause alarm, then it's not a hoax bomb. Just a dumb cop.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by Isgrimnur »

The important part is "knowingly manufactures, sells, purchases, transports, or possesses a hoax bomb," which is the part where, for this instance, you can stop reading, as it never was intended nor represented to be a hoax bomb.
(13) "Hoax bomb" means a device that:
(A) reasonably appears to be an explosive or incendiary device; or
(B) by its design causes alarm or reaction of any type by an official of a public safety agency or a volunteer agency organized to deal with emergencies.
It's almost as if people are the problem.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by GargoyleBoy »

Isgrimnur wrote:The important part is "knowingly manufactures, sells, purchases, transports, or possesses a hoax bomb," which is the part where, for this instance, you can stop reading, as it never was intended nor represented to be a hoax bomb.
(13) "Hoax bomb" means a device that:
(A) reasonably appears to be an explosive or incendiary device; or
(B) by its design causes alarm or reaction of any type by an official of a public safety agency or a volunteer agency organized to deal with emergencies.
They're both important parts.

The part I highlighted is also essential for getting a conviction, and it's important because intent can be very hard to prove. They'd have to show some communication by him (even a written journal or something of the sort) showing that intent.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by El Guapo »

You could probably get to a jury by saying that it looked so much like a bomb that he must have intended it to be a hoax bomb.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by Scuzz »

GreenGoo wrote:
YellowKing wrote:Well it sounds like they were treating it as a hoax bomb, which would be a serious charge in and of itself.
Right. But for it to be a hoax bomb, the kid would have had to say "Hey! I've got a bomb here" when it wasn't really one. Instead, the kid said "Hey, I've got this homemade clock here" and people were like "is it a bomb? No. Is it a hoax bomb? It could be. I mean, it's not a bomb but it looks like a bomb to me, so even though it's not a bomb and the kid never claimed it was a bomb, let's handle it as if it's a hoax bomb and arrest him".

Does any of that make sense to you YK?

In order for it to be treated as a hoax bomb, someone would have to have implied that it was a bomb first. Typically that person can't be the one doing the arresting.
Devils advocating here but....

Isn't a hoax bomb only "fun" if you get a chance to use it as a hoax bomb first? That never happened in this case, unless the alarm going off and subsequent unveiling was intentional. So if caught before you get the chance to "hoax it" wouldn't you just go with "it's a clock".
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by GargoyleBoy »

El Guapo wrote:You could probably get to a jury by saying that it looked so much like a bomb that he must have intended it to be a hoax bomb.
Except at no time did he say it was anything other than a clock.

And apparently, it wasn't even enough to charge him, as I mentioned before, let alone try for a conviction.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by GreenGoo »

Scuzz wrote:Devils advocating here but....

Isn't a hoax bomb only "fun" if you get a chance to use it as a hoax bomb first? That never happened in this case, unless the alarm going off and subsequent unveiling was intentional. So if caught before you get the chance to "hoax it" wouldn't you just go with "it's a clock".
Of course. But then what crime has been committed? It's a clock and he says it's a clock.

Amazon sells clocks that look more like a bomb than this thing did.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by El Guapo »

GargoyleBoy wrote:
El Guapo wrote:You could probably get to a jury by saying that it looked so much like a bomb that he must have intended it to be a hoax bomb.
Except at no time did he say it was anything other than a clock.

And apparently, it wasn't even enough to charge him, as I mentioned before, let alone try for a conviction.
Right, but of course the defendant is going to deny it if it gets detected before his plan goes into effect.

To be clear, I really don't think that he was intending to use this as a hoax bomb or that he should have been indicted or anything, I'm just saying that that statute would probably support an indictment if the device looked enough like a bomb. I also think that the immediate national blowback over this helped ensure that there was no indictment here.
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by TheMix »

So... guilty until proven.... Well, just guilty I guess. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, there is no way to prove any kind of "intent". Any statement otherwise is an opinion. "But he was going to..." "I'm sure that he would have..." "If he hadn't been exposed first, then he would have..."

What struck me about this is that it is the opposite (and I'm going way off the deep end into "EXTREMES" territory) of the "We can't have the death penalty because we might sentence one innocent person to death." And yet, they are apparently more than willing to assume guilty in this case without any evidence.

Well, for myself, I refuse to go down that path. I am not going to assume that a 14 year old kid who makes a clock is secretly planning an elaborate hoax, or doing some kind of dry run to create a bomb. I'm going to believe that he is an enthusiastic kid that finds delight in tinkering and making things.

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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by rshetts2 »

GreenGoo wrote:
Scuzz wrote:Devils advocating here but....

Isn't a hoax bomb only "fun" if you get a chance to use it as a hoax bomb first? That never happened in this case, unless the alarm going off and subsequent unveiling was intentional. So if caught before you get the chance to "hoax it" wouldn't you just go with "it's a clock".
Of course. But then what crime has been committed? It's a clock and he says it's a clock.

Amazon sells clocks that look more like a bomb than this thing did.
No crime was committed by the kid but then countless people have been arrested and subsequently released because they did not commit a crime, they were just suspected of committing a crime. Dont misconstrue that as approval of what the police did, Im just pointing out that this is not an uncommon situation.
I really think the bigger issue is the police not allowing a minor to contact his parents and interrogating a minor without his parents present. The arrest is sheer stupidity but can be explained due to some vagueness in legal definitions but the interrogation part is pretty straight forward. Hopefully they get their collective asses handed to them for that.
Well do you ever get the feeling that the story's too damn real and in the present tense?
Or that everybody's on the stage and it seems like you're the only person sitting in the audience?
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Scuzz
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by Scuzz »

GreenGoo wrote:
Kasey Chang wrote:Actually it's "kick the bucket down the line". If the principal release the kid the school looks bad for "not treating it seriously". So they kick it to the cops to handle it.
I'm not sure. Once you investigate and realize it's a clock, what more is there to do? It's a clock. Parents complain after the fact, you explain it was a clock. You knew it was a clock 5 seconds after lookng at it. Parents lose their shit, you again explain it's a clock and that calling in the national guard is an inappropriate response to a clock not to mention a huge waste of resources.

People can act as crazy as they like, but we shouldn't let the inmates run the damn asylum. Someone has to stand up for sanity. The person closest to doing so was the 1st teacher.
It wouldn't surprise me if the mere fact that someone suggested "bomb" was enough to trigger a school district mandate that the cops be called. It was the cops response that was over the top and without excuse.
Black Lives Matter
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GreenGoo
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by GreenGoo »

Scuzz wrote: It wouldn't surprise me if the mere fact that someone suggested "bomb" was enough to trigger a school district mandate that the cops be called. It was the cops response that was over the top and without excuse.
Me neither. I suspect the cops acted after consultation with school officials though. I could be way off here, but I imagine them at a loss as to what to do, then standing around discussing options with the school officials input. I fully admit that is pure speculation.
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silverjon
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by silverjon »

Strikes me as a bit of a stretch that someone would make his "hoax bomb" also happen to be a perfectly functional clock for the sake of having deniability in case he gets caught before getting to pull off his bomb hoax.

Good grief.
wot?

To be fair, adolescent power fantasy tripe is way easier to write than absurd existential horror, and every community has got to start somewhere... right?

Unless one loses a precious thing, he will never know its true value. A little light finally scratches the darkness; it lets the exhausted one face his shattered dream and realize his path cannot be walked. Can man live happily without embracing his wounded heart?
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hepcat
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Re: [WTF?!] Kid arrested for showing off built clock in scho

Post by hepcat »

Taking the high road 101
One of the largest Muslim groups in Texas said Thursday that it does not fault police and school officials who handcuffed and suspended a 14-year-old Muslim boy after he brought a homemade clock to class that they mistook for a possible bomb.

Instead, Khalid Hamideh of the Islamic Association of North Texas blamed political leaders for espousing inflammatory anti-Muslim rhetoric and creating a "climate of fear."

"We're not pointing a finger at the school district or the police department," Hamideh said. "Under the current climate that exists in this country, you can't really blame them because when they see something like that, they have to react."
Covfefe!
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